>I guess we can agree to disagree on the idea of looking to
>consult West Indian educators, foreign-born blacks living in
>the U.S. etc.

Actually I'd rather be discussing these ideas and debating this than whether or not Cosby's comments. Ya know? I think no matter what side you fall on the comments, no one can deny that it wasn't really coming with any options other than pointing fingers.

>Keep in mind that the Harvard statistics encompass
>*children* of foreign-born blacks--many of the kids
>themselves were born *here*. Yes, their parents provide a
>different cultural approach to child-rearing, but the kids
>have nonethless grown up in *American* society, with all of
>the same distractions as any American kid. And somehow,
>they are able to achieve on a higher level than the average
>American black student.

I believe you. I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I just think that our black leaders haven't developed ANY real plan for what Cosby is talking about to really say what is or isn't working. We haven't really exhausted all of our own options. So to look somewhere else for a plan or a solution just doesn't sound right to me. Especially when what's going on there has been instilled by time and history. A different history. That's what I meant by not being able to implement a culture. Also, who is going to represent black americans and pick up this information to apply to us? How is this blueprint going to be drawn up?

>What we are seeing with these children is not the operation
>of West Indian/African cultural practices in their native
>context--we are seeing an *adaptation* to the American
>milieu. The fact is that these people have had to make
>adjustments in order to raise their children here, and I
>think that there are things that we can learn from that.

I understand what you're saying. there are plenty of things to learn from. But even what was adapted from america, was still woven into the west indian culture and based on the west indian issues of the day. When it really comes down to it, alot of our values are similar if not identical. However, there are so many different external factors that have altered what values have stuck and what have been forgotten. We are only going to learn so much from someone who hasn't had the same history. And no this isn't a "our history is more fucked up than there's" thing. It's just a different history.

>Due to differences in the history of slavery in the
>(particularly English-speaking) Carribean vs. the U.S.,
>these people have developed a *system* of education in their
>home countries that is optimized to produce competent,
>responsible individuals. We have never been able to develop
>a similar system here because for hundreds of years, whites
>have taken great pains to sabotage our efforts to develop a
>competetive system of education.

Right. so the question is, if we don't do anything to take over our schools, how is learning from the west indians going to help that?

>This is the 'dirty secret' behind American blacks'
>ambivalent stance toward education. Given the fact that it
>was denied to us for so long, many of us have developed this
>sort of defensive reaction to education--'I don't need no
>white man's education...' This self-defeating defensive
>attitude continues to the present day, despite the fact that
>many blacks who do it today don't even know where this
>attitude actually comes from in the first place.

I agree.

>Of course, it is the height of hypocrisy for white people to
>turn around now and wonder why we aren't competetive,
>considering the historical context, but we don't have any
>choice but to try and get ourselves together.

Right. Which is why I say we have enough money and power now to do it. It's just put in the right places.

>In my opinion, we need to consult with these foreign-born
>blacks, because they have successfully adapted their
>educational values to American society. I'm not suggesting
>that we try to transplant the Carribean approach to
>education wholesale; indeed, the immigrants themselves
>haven't done this. What they have done is *adapted* their
>traditions and values successfully to an American context.

But who do we have receive this consultation and then implement this approace to us in america? I just don't think it's that easy. You still have poor school systems to contend with.

>We are going to have to do some adapting of our own in the
>near future, or many of us are going to perish. The
>mainstream black American culture is going to have to change
>*profoundly* if we are going to continue as a people--I
>don't really think that this is debatable.

no debate from me. The shit is absolutely frightening brotha.

>I think that many people are too caught up in being
>personally offended by what Cosby said, and they miss the
>point that the guy obviously cares. I mean, he's a
>*billionaire*--he doesn't have to deal with *any* black
>people (other than his wife) if he doesn't feel like it. He
>doesn't even have to *see* any if he doesn't want to.

But I think that ranting about it without really reaching down to the people he's referring too, can come off as either caring or embarrassed to be black. I would like to think it's just him caring and just not being able to come with anyother ideas. But when you do it more than once, it becomes very nonproductive and self serving. But at least he's got us talking about it.

>Believe me, it would be very easy for him to just walk away
>from the situation and say, 'fuck those niggers--they're
>just no good, and that's the end of it.' But this is not
>really what he said. I think the man wanted to light a fire
>under people's butts, especially since he is getting up in
>years, and doesn't know how much longer he has to be here
>(not like any of us know how long we have either).

Like I said, I would like to hope that's his intentions.

>There are many other prominent blacks, (particularly certain
>individuals in entertainment and music industry circles)
>who are silent in the face of all of this cultural chaos
>amongst blacks. They are silent, in certain cases, because
>they are making money off of their own people's confusion
>and misery, and they are much more worthy of criticism than
>Cosby, as far as I'm concerned.

VERY TRUE. Which is what I've been really getting to as part of the problem. I really think it would've been interesting, if Cosby had put other entertainer's feet to the fire, to see what the reaction here would be. My critique isn't really with what he said. He basically said that we have a problem. But he didn't come with any plan. It was just a rant.