> I have white people in my family that I love. The professor that taught me about white skinned privelege was a short, lily white<BR>> woman from Tennessee and I loved her too. I have had white coworkers in my life that I have felt were excellent social workers<BR> > AND that still don't change the fact that the vast majority of white people in this country, hell in >this world, have and continue<BR> > to possess ignorant, disgusting, savage, unjust, ridiculous and unGODly attitudes toward Black >people and other people of<BR> > color. <P>What you said here makes perfect sense. i apologize for calling you a racist. This seems inconsistent with what you said earlier though:<P>>And I don't give a gotdamn if white people understand me or not. So long as they take that foot off my >neck, I'm perfectly fine.<BR>> They don't have to learn my ways or my music, my dress or my dance, they don't have to think like >me or talk like me I just want<BR>> them to leave me and mine the hell alone.<P>You didn't mention here that "you and yours" includes some white folks. You're speaking generally. You should use the word "most" instead of just saying bad shit about a very broad group of people. You also seem to forget the fact that though white people continue to take advantage of the black the brown and the red, they also take advantage of the white. Many whites are as oppressed as blacks, browns, and reds.<P> > See yall's problem is that you're taking me for light. I'm not coming at this from some crazed >maniacal "hate whitey" joint. Yall<BR>> are trying to give me the Nat Turner treatment. I have spent an ample amount of time observing >people from my own African<BR>> center and I have concluded that when it's all said and done:<P>it really did seem to me in your post (62) that i replied to, that you were on some maniacal "hate whitey" joint. I can tell with your last post tho ("white people and me") that i was mistaken, but go back and read your earlier one. It's pretty scary.<P> > 1. Black people will have to make the moves that will move us. No people in the world have ever >been lifted from Enslavement<BR>> by some other hand. <BR>><BR>> 2. The best interests of white people and the best interests of Black people have often been, and >continue to be diametrically<BR>> opposed.<P>i believe this if you stick "most" in there before the words "white" and "black" in #2. But also realize as box said, that the best interest of the individual and of the group can be and are very different subjects.<P>> because of this...<BR>><BR>> 3. White people cannot raise Black children to be fully actualized human beings with a mind on >Black liberation. <P>i follow your logic here and it makes good sense. Of course 99% of the time, black people don't raise black children to be "fully actualized" in this way either. How many millions of black people are there for every MLK?<P> Have you <BR> >ever known a non-black person you <BR> >liked? I gotta ask where u <BR> >from, cuz i can't understand your <BR> >racism.. yes, racism. you know you're <BR> >a racist, right? <P>> Of course I'm NOT a racist. I cannot effect the well being of any person. I cannot deny them >priviliges, I cannot deny them<BR>> housing, I cannot deny them a job, I cannot deny them the Super Bowl (yall saw how those Black >men were robbed I'm sure). I<BR>> do not have the power that racism requires. At the very most you could say that I am prejudiced. I >prefer to say that I am<BR>> smart. The prey doesn't go playing with the predator. That predator is going to have to look me in >the face and we're gonna<BR>> have to tussle it out before he takes me down. <P>okay. Maybe you're not a racist, but i think your argument here is that you're not a racial oppressor. There's a difference. Anyone can be racist. You don't need power to base hatred strictly on race. That's what racism is. Prejudice is something all of us have and is very ingrained. We are all but powerless against our prejudices. Prejudice is not necessarily racial or even bad. Prejudice just means that you pre-judge (that's the exact linguistic etymology of the word). I have to be able to distinguish a good apple from a bad apple if i want to eat one and not get sick. That's prejudice. Racial prejudice is some shit like seeing a white person and assuming they are a predator out to prey on you, and there is nothing wrong with that either, as long as you give this person a chance... consider the possibility that they are not out to get you, and that they might even be a dope person.<P>Oppressor is what you think i called you. Different people have different definitions of the same words sometimes and that's okay, but it makes communication difficult, so i'm just translating from Sekhmet into scratch_n_sniff. You are correct. You are not an oppressor. What I called you was a racist. In my terms that means that you hate white people. It appears that this is also not true. I sincerely apologize. I do think that you have at leas one racist opinion though (the whole thing about being against interracial relationships).<P>Ay, i wish i knew what you were talking about with that SuperBowl thing. Which SuperBowl? What happened? <P>> Indeed I do have slave master blood. Care to run down exactly how it got there. It's considered a >felony now, but for<BR>> centuries, white men were allowed to run up in any one they saw whether it was consented to or >not. Then there are the<BR>> white folks in my family that Black folks invited in. Care to talk about weak minded Black men >who thought white was right... I'd<BR>> rather not. It's a bit too painful. <P>doesn't it suck having an asshole's blood in you? i mean, you and i are descended from some horrible people. and also some wonderful people, right? some of both bunch were black and some were white, and some miscellaneous in there too. even if you're 100% non-white blood, you trace it back far enough and you'll find a rape.<P>You said earlier that there's white folks in your family that you love. Now you're saying how weak your black relatives are/were for letting them in. This is about family, right? Maybe you disagree with what i'm about to say, but isn't family more about love than it is about racial pride? Did any of the white folks in your family, whether you love them or not, rape anyone? I imagine not. So why is a man weak for choosing to enjoy his life with a white woman? <P>Maybe he didn't think "white was right" but just that it wasn't wrong. This open-mindedness seems to contradict with your opinion.<P>> Superstition = a white man's word to describe any of the cultural traits that do not meet up with >their anglo-saxon ways. And<BR>> I'm supposed to be the racist...<P>Okay. This was an attack on me. I attacked you calling you a racist, so now you got me back. I'm not trying to have a race war here, i just want to learn, and hopefully help others learn too. This is some real hot water right here so i'ma get in it real slow so i don't get burned. If "superstition" is what you say it is, then my whole life is a superstition. I'm an Atheist (am i allowed to capitalize that?) and a logical, but still spiritual person. I am of the belief that when a person dies, they don't go to some afterlife where they can watch over their seed. Reincarnation?... maybe, but i doubt it... heaven and hell?... not a chance, that's absurd. so when i call you superstitious, i'm talking about your comment: "I'm not trying to play with my ancestors like that. They don't really like to be forgotten. " When i first read it, it just sounded like some bullsh**. Can you agree, that taken literally, this is pretty superstitious? I mean with the real definition of the word? Reading it again, i see that it's probably not supposed to be taken so literally, as if you actually think that your ancestors (but only the black ones) are judging you from above as we speak. More like a metaphor or something, am i right? And arguably a valid one, so again i apologize.<P>so now i gotta defend myself cuz u called me a racist. But remember, your definition of "racist" is different from mine. Well, in my own terms, i am not a racist because i do not hate anyone based on their race or culture, simple as that. In your terms, i am not a racist because i do not oppress anyone based on their racial background. I must admit, I do indirectly reap the benefits of racial oppression. i mean i'm lucky enough to live and go to school in a wealthy country that gained its wealth by killing off thousands of peoples and enslaved another people to build it. I definitely reap the benefits of this every day. Do you? (by the way, i'm going way off topic here) <P> >> Stop playing, yall are playing, white >people don't want to know Black people for real, >they >just want admirers and people<BR> that >legitimize and validate them...<BR>> Yall do. Everyone wants to be around people who legitimize them. You all just have the means to >ensure that better than<BR>> everybody else on the planet, and sometimes you're vindictive and mean about how you extract it. <P>okay, so this is not unique to white people, it's everyone who wants to be legitimized, okay, i agree with that. '...admirers and people who legitimize and validate...', hmmm... you mean friends? So, white people don't want to know blacks. Maybe you think this because you think that white people are all like you. Again, i quote you, Sekhmet: "I just want them to leave me and mine the hell alone."<P><BR>> Then for those that claim they are for us Black people, I have one request...<P>> Stop teaching your children that they are good because of the color of their skin. Teach them they >are good because they are<BR>> God's. <P>i was always taught this, and i will teach my children this whatever color of the rainbow they pop out... well except for the God part<P>>Stop allowing little white children to continue to be ignorant bastards that continue to >promulgate the >most insidious and destructive activity of human history namely white supremacy.<P>Do you really think that this is what most white kids are taught? I ask you again, where are you from? <P>>Teach them that sometimes they >are right and sometimes they<BR>> are not and that they are entitled to precisely what every one else is entitled to, no more and no >less.<P>Isn't this what all kids are taught... at least the ones who are taught anything? I know that some kids are brought up racist, but these days they're in the vast minority. The problem is ignorance and indifference. Why do so many non-racists (primarily whites) sweep that shit under the rug? They just don't give a damn. As someone said earlier on this post, whites do enjoy the privilege of being able to not think about racism.<P>> When I see groups of<BR>> white people acting like that in accordance to that, I will embrace them as my brothers and sisters. <P>news flash: almost every white person i know should be embraced as your brothers and sisters<P>> I know that a few are working in these ways already, but I'll issue you a challenge. My friend, >who is a professor of Race issues<BR>> this to every class he's ever taught. He's been teaching for 11 years, 22 semesters, and he offers an >A to anyone who can<BR>> produce this. No one has yet. Tell me the name of one organized group of white people with the >word "white" in the name that<BR>> is organized for anything other than terroristic acts and destruction. <P>you are damn right. "white" organizations act strictly out of hatred and anger. Most Black, Latino, Asian or other groups fights for what they lack because of unfair social conditions. Many white groups that don't use the word "white" in their name, for example Irish-American groups, are not violent. An Irish-American is proud of their Irish heritage, not their whiteness. "White pride" is built on hate, ignorance, superiority, and racism. I don't think anyone wants a group that is non-violent to be called "white" something.<P><BR>> Like who? And do they do it to other whites? I've noticed a truckload of whites who denounce >racism when they are in the<BR>> company of Blacks, but I often wonder if they denounce it to other whites when we aren't around. >Do they actively try to undo<BR>> what has been done by their forefathers? <P>This is what i was saying about indifference. Most non-black folks, not just whites, are indifferent to racial issues. What i mean is that even though if you ask their opinion on racism, they're like "Oh yeah, racism's terrible, it's stupid," they still don't think about it much, because it just doesn't have a big impact on their daily life. I am an exception to this. Racism rarely effects me. I've been treated in racist ways because of my latino appearance, but where i live, most people are cool enough to see past race, so i don't encounter that sh** a lot. I still think about racism a lot though(as i'm sure you could tell). <P>I "actively try to undo what has been done by forefathers". That's what i'm doing right now. I'm writing about racial issues which were created by 'my forefathers' (by the way, i feel weird saying 'my forefathers' because i feel like i can relate about as well to Thomas Jefferson as I can to Kunta Kinte). I'm trying to undo some of the racism that was created by these centuries of conflict between two peoples who weren't native to this continent in the first place. Ironically, everyone I'm arguing with here is black, but we know that the root cause for this racism (disapproving of interracial relationships is the racism i'm talking about) was the fault of 'my forefathers' (i really have to put that in quotes). So, yes, in a way i am actively trying to undo what they did. I know, it's just posts to the net, but even though i'm 1/2 white and light complected, i am not in a position of any kind of power.<P>But wait. Is this a requirement for a white person to get an OK in your book? That's a pretty strict policy you got there. Let me ask you this though. Do you require the same of a black person to give them an OK? You mentioned that you do social work, so i assume that you are doing your part (probably more, right?) to undo these racial injustices. That's dope. i give you props for that. But politics and social work is not cut out for everyone.<P>>Do they make efforts to right injustices by sharing power >and wealth? I'm not being<BR>> facetious either. I'm really interested if you know whites like these. I've only known 2 in my life >and I love them. They are my<BR>> sisters, but cats that talk a good game and front like a mug when I ain't around don't gets love like >that. <P>I don't care who your or my ancestors were when it comes down to you and me. It's just you and me, fuck a gene pool. Don't get me wrong, i'm in favor of affirmative action (although i think it should be based more on income than race/ethnicity). We all know how unfair shit is if you're a minority, and the government is the only institution that can and should be expected to do anything about that, but why should a white person, an individual, just share his/her money with a black person, unless they're friends? Guilt? "Oh, that's right. You're black. Here, take $100. Sorry about my ancestors, they can be so rude."<P>As for sharing power, i'm not exactly sure what you mean, but i think you're talking about bettering the opportunity for minorities to get the kinds of jobs that have historically been inaccessible to them. Two words: Affirmitive action. I live in California, and about a year ago here, there was a proposition on the ballot to ban aff. actn. I voted against it. The damn thing won (guess most white folks are more like the ones you know than the ones i do), but I made an effort to right that injustice. Simply voting is an insignificant effort, you might argue, but it's more than most people do.<P>Again, i have to question your attack (i use that word casually), not because it's not a good one, but because you direct it specifically at white people. How many black people make an effort to better society in these ways. A larger percentage than whites, but still not many <P>> I know that there are dope white folks, but that's the vast minority. It's sort of like saying, oh there >are plenty of Black<BR>> astronauts, look at Dr. Mae Jemison. Come on now, that just ain't so. There are a couple of Black >astronauts, just as there are<BR>> a couple of dope white folks, but I'm willing to be wrong. If you have some new info, I'd be glad >to consider it. <P>As far as races go, whites are the least dope. I was just questioning your open-mindedness. You have answered my question, and everything you said in this last paragraph is true. BTW, I didn't know there were ANY black astronauts! Now I do. I learned something, thanks... for real.<P>> And again, I suppose it's the white in you that won't let you realize that for once, this is not solely >about you. I take issue with<BR>> the Black men that are with white women more so than the white girl. Reason being, I believe that >Black men are the most<BR>> beautiful and desirable men on the planet so I don't blame all the women of the world for digging >them. I take issue with Black<BR>> men who abandon their Black family in the pursuit of a dream that was created a long time ago by >people who mean us no<BR>> good. <P>"Does this mean our date is off?"-- me after reading this part<P>Hey, what the f***?! you brought it back on topic?!? Did i say you could do that? (i'm joking, just f**kin wit you). Okay, I know that it's the black men's actions that upset you, but (this is starting to seem so pointless... i mean how am i going to make a better argument than box did?) .... Why is a man restricted to date his own race? The only arguments I hear are "He should find beauty in black women," and "How can we love another race before we love ourselves", or in your case, Sekhmet, "Why can't we act in our own self-interest?" and "How will a white woman raise black children?" I think these arguments all make sense on the larger scale, but for an individual black man to take this to mean "I can't hang with that white girl, even though I like her and could fall in love with her, because I have to consider what's best for black people in general."??? do you hear me? Maybe he does find beauty in black women, but he happens to find something special about this one particular woman who is not black. Maybe this man found love for people of all races at the same time, and didn't need to give any priority to his own. Maybe he is acting in his own self-interest and not the self interest of millions of people he doesn't know. And maybe, just maybe, this white woman would be a good mother... dare i say maybe even a better mother for a black child than a black woman he might have married instead?<P>I think it's unfortunate if a lot of black women are left alone while they watch all the black men walkin around with white girls. But oh, well. If you can't get a man, you gonna blame all the men? If I ask out a bunch of girls and they all say no, am i gonna complain that they like characteristics i don't have?<P>Can a black man love a white woman without "abondoning" his family? Unless he has a racist family, he can.<P>You can generalize that the high number of black men w/ non-black women is too high to be healthy for the black community. But you can't blame the individual for who he falls in love with, and you can't expect him to choose the community over himself. Some people (I assume you are one, Sekhmet) feel that their connection to some particular community is one of the most important things about them. Others, who may still belong to that community, don't consider it as significant a part about them. Ranting that the community's well-being is more important than the individual's and disapproving of what the individual does is not going to bring this individual any deeper into the community (make up your own damn analogy, i'm tired), so i argue that honeydrop, Sekhmet, nahymsa, etc., while trying to strengthen the black community, may actually be weakening it. What I'm saying is that by trying to reinforce black unity by separating blacks from whites, is actually dividing blacks. You want proof? Read this thread. What's it full of? Divided blacks.<P>> In my opinion, Black men that go for white women have fallen for the okey doke. And by that I >don't mean that white women<BR>> are skanky. I think that white women have a beauty about them that is theirs. I think that Black >women have a beauty about<BR>> them that is ours, but unfortunately, we fall for the okey doke too with that white standards of >beauty thing again. <P>i agree. i don't exactly know what you mean by "okey doke", but the white standards of beauty thing is a bunch of crap, and many fools have fallen for it, male, female, black, and white, and other (my mom has this curly puertorican afro, she straightened it when she was younger, partly so she could look more white, and it worked. She looks better with her natural hair though, and i think ALL black women look better with their natural hair (hey that makes me wonder... do you have your natural hair, Sekhmet?))<P>> I love Black people and I think that we are the most beautiful people on the planet which I believe >is infinitely appropriate for a<BR>> Black person to feel this way. I do not feel that is appropriate for us to feel that way about another >race most especially the<BR>> white one because historically, the white race has abused us. That type of love and devotion is not >healthy for an individual in<BR>> an abuse situation and it certainly is not appropriate for an entire people in an abusive situation. <P>true. <P>> I don't hate you because your half white; I'm just more suspicious of you than I would be of Black >folks because you're half<BR>> white because white people have set a historical precedent that infers that your best interest is not >mine. Because of that, I<BR>> don't trust a whole heck of a lot of white people because they have never given me much reason >to do so. Your use of the<BR>> word hate is inflamatory to say the least. Deal with what I am writing and don't try to assign such >emotionally laden terms to<BR>> what I am saying. That's aggravating. <P>you're right again here. I want you to try to understand why i thought your post was racist though. Go through and read it again (it's reply # 62). Then maybe you can understand where i was coming from, and why i questioned your vast generalizations of white people.<P>> As I have said befor and I'll reiterate it now, I love all people which is why I'm not gonna let cats >just sit around and be wack. I<BR>> want for white people to ascend spiritually and it ain't gonna happen so long as Blacks and >Browns and Reds and even other<BR>> Whites sit around and act like the last 400 years was all good. True reconciliation must start with >the truth, all truths, not just<BR>> the truth of the victors. I humbly (and sometimes not so humbly) offer my truth. <P>If you love all people, then you love the white women who date black men. You then also love the black men who date those white women. If you love these two people, why can't you let them love each other? That's some truth though, what you're saying about the truth of the victors and all.<P>But i gotta end by asking you what do you think of a white person who agrees with you that interracial relationships are wrong? I also want you to visualize a world where all black people only date and marry other blacks (yeah, i know, it wasn't very long ago, but visualize it happening in the future). Do you think that this is alienating non-blacks? I do. Racial alienation is something you as a black person should be very familiar with. So how does reversing this alienation improve anyones situation? Well, it would prove that black men find black women attractive, but it wouldn't do a damn other thing.<P>The last thing i want to say is that while there are more black males than females dating outside their race, and this is a problem (at least for black women, it is), do you think that the situation i described above, in which blacks stop dating interracially, will ever happen? That's like me wishing I was 7 feet tall. It ain't gonna happen. Maybe what has to happen is for non-black men to go for black women more. We know the women can't seem to get it into their heads that it's year 2000 and it's okay to approach men, so if black men ain't approaching you, maybe the white ones need to. . Then it won't be so lopsided, and yall can stop complaining, right? <P>Eh, sorry Sekhmet, but i gotta clown you here (check the 2 quotes below).<P>"cats that talk a good game and front like a mug when I ain't around don't gets love like that." ---Sekhmet<BR>"I love all people." --- Sekhmet<BR>"right, right." -- me<P>"White people are more like black people than they are like rich people." --- "Bulworth"

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