https://twitter.com/espn/status/1209463737058562048?s=21

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/nba/2019/12/24/espn-last-dance-documentary-trailer-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-1997-1998

ESPN released a new teaser for The Last Dance a 10-part documentary series examining Michael Jordan's final season with the Chicago Bulls in 1997-98.
The new teaser includes a short snippet showing that Jordan sat down for an interview for the film.

The trailer also showed there will be cameos in interviews by President Barack Obama, Kobe Bryant, Commissioner Adam Silver, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippin, Dennis Rodman, Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, Roy Williams, Justin Timberlake, Bob Costas and many more influential figures of the time.

Jason Hehir is directing the project with producer Mike Tollin. Hehir was the director on The '85 Bears 30 for 30 documentary and the Andre the Giant documentary by HBO.
The documentary is set to be released in June. No specific date has been shared yet.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

the original post is good ole Zeke. Those clips should be very very interesting to say the least. Has Isiah been more diplomatic towards Jordan in recent years? Also, has Jordan more diplomatic towards Zeke?

This is going to be a personal documentary for people from Chicago, so it might be a tough watch for me. Entering the 97-98 season, everyone knew the team was going to be dismantled at the end of the year. And it was. There was constant bickering between Jackson and Krause, Jordan and Krause, Rodman issues, and Krause working in the background on Jackson’s coaching replacement and moving away from Jordan. That season was tense and stressful.

I don’t know why Justin Timberlake is in the documentary. He isn’t from Chicago and I don’t recall him having a significant moment with the bulls during that run. I guess they are going to juxtapose *NSYNC’s success that year with what the bulls were doing. Everyone else being involved appears to spot on.

>This is going to be a personal documentary for people from
>Chicago, so it might be a tough watch for me. Entering the
>97-98 season, everyone knew the team was going to be
>dismantled at the end of the year. And it was. There was
>constant bickering between Jackson and Krause, Jordan and
>Krause, Rodman issues, and Krause working in the background on
>Jackson’s coaching replacement and moving away from Jordan.
>That season was tense and stressful.

I was in college so not watching every WGN/TNT/NBC game, but caught some and of course locked in for the playoffs. Without having a 24-7 news cycle and social media, the information was more controlled and limited at that time. I think the league started with a lockout so despite the threepeat, all chances of keeping the dynasty together went away with the work stoppage.

If they knew then what they knew 10 years or so later (I'd say now but several have died), I'd like to think they'd have fought tooth and nail to keep that squad together. Especially when considering a shortened season would have given them more gas in the tank and they could have handled the Knicks or Spurs.

Naw. It was a done deal by Krause and Jerry. Krause ( and somewhat Jerry) wanted to prove that he could win without Phil and Jordan. Krause already stated that executives build championship teams. Krause wanted Phil gone, and Jordan stated that he wasn’t going to play for another coach. It was a wrap. Krause had Tim Floyd lined up even before the start of the season.

Basically, everyone was tired of each other.

Rodman went to the lakers as a FA
Kerr went to the spurs
PIp was traded to the Rockets.
Jordan retired


But at the same time Jerry Krause is probably the greatest gm of all time, whether you like him or not. Dude found gems and knew how to draft to compliment Jordan and didn’t give in to his demands like the GMs of this era.

>But at the same time Jerry Krause is probably the greatest gm
>of all time, whether you like him or not. Dude found gems and
>knew how to draft to compliment Jordan and didn’t give in to
>his demands like the GMs of this era.

Hell and Yes. To me he is, and I don't even like him. But as a GM and what he had to deal with? Not even Jerry West could have pulled it off.

How he built a dynasty:


- SCOTTIE PIPPEN. He was the only one who knew about him. He wasn't even on other GM's draft board. Even Polynice was like who the hell is Scottie Pippen(?) when he was traded for him. Krause knew about this kid's ability for a long time and kept him hidden. But once Scottie started destroying all the draft prospects during the combines, krause had to get him off the board as soon as possible. Sonics always wanted Polynice and was going to get him with the 5th pick, but the bulls had the 8th pick, and anything could have happened between those picks. So Krause struck a deal with the sonics to draft Pippen. Sonics didn't care because they didn't know about him, and they were getting two extra picks. So they probably thought they were getting away with highway robbery. One of the greatest pre draft trade deals of all time.

- Hiring Phil Jackson as coach, another gem. Phil was a coach in the CBA, and teams were looking at him as a hire. Back then, being a CBA coach was not a positive reflection.

- Trading Oakley to bring in Cartwright to get a center who could hit a mid range shot. Oakley was just a rebound guy.

- His drafting and trades to surround jordan with the right pieces.

- hired Tex Winter the brain of the Triangle Offense.

- trading perdue for rodman.

- the scouting and signing of toni kukoc

- I can go on and on about how this man kept chicago competitive for 8 straight years and 6 world championships, 2 3peats

- And he proved that he could win without Michael Jordan. In the year that jordan retired, scottie lead the bulls to being one game away from the eastern conference finals and was still competitive as hell. Jordan never got out of the first round without Krause or Pippen.

Jordan constantly degraded Krause in the media, reprimanded him for his trades and draft picks. Krause never gave in, and the bulls kept winning. No other GM would have endured that. The bulls didn't let the players or coaches try to run stuff, or create problems like with the Lakers or Knicks.

I'm not a big Krause or Reinsdorf fan, but they kept that shit in check.That's why players don't want to come here. They will not be able to run the show. ..

the year before Krause is hired all that bs is irrelevant.



LiquidDope is that you?
https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=21&topic_id=10552&mesg_id=10552&listing_type=search#

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=21&topic_id=7001&mesg_id=7001&listing_type=search

They wouldn't have been a dynasty. However, he would have put together a championship.

The main piece to all of it was Scottie Pippen, hands down. And Krause made that happen. Jordan sometimes gets too much credit.

Case in point, at the beginning of the last championship run, Pippen missed 2-3 months due to toe surgery, the bulls were absolutely terrible during that time. I think they went 9-7 or 8-8. That's when talks really started to heat up about dismantling the team.

Pippen was the one who ran the triangle offense the way it was supposed to be run, because just like Kobe ,Jordan would break the offense ...a lot. Jordan couldn't run it the right way, which led to a lot of isolations. ....and the bulls lost a lot.

Scottie Pippen was the true center piece bro.

Definitely agree Pippen was important to their chemistry.

Season is way too long to cal them terrible without Pippen

Dude that shit was terrible. I was there. Bulls were getting their asses kicked by double digits, and the offense looked like shit. This is when people realized how good pippen was and the true general of the team, and begging for his return. The bulls were scoring
just 87 points a game, last place in scoring.


9-7 from a team that went 72-10 2 years prior and how they were getting their asses locked. That’s was unacceptable from the bulls at the time. Just like shit is unacceptable from the lakers in this day and age.

If you were there in Chicago or from Chicago, then you would have an understanding of the constant expectations of that team. The team was already being written off ...that’s how bad it was, and the purpose of the documentary to showcase that.


“. Chicago Bulls coach Phil Jackson has been around the NBA long
enough to be able to identify a crumbling dynasty. The telltale
signs include an aging roster, a sudden inability to win on the
road, nagging injuries to key players and a general malaise.
"When it goes, it goes quickly," says Jackson, who experienced
such a decline as a member of the New York Knicks, who won a
championship in 1973 but couldn't make the playoffs three
seasons later.

Are Jackson's Bulls on a similar downward spiral? After losses
on consecutive nights last week, 101-80 in Cleveland to the
Cavaliers and 90-83 at the United Center to the Washington
Wizards, the defending champions were mired in mediocrity with a
4-4 record (0-3 on the road). After those two defeats, Chicago,
which tied with the Utah Jazz for the NBA lead in scoring last
season with an average of 103.1 points, was producing 87.5
points a game, last in the NBA, and had not broken 100 in any
game. Perhaps more ominous, the five-time-champion Bulls' aura
of invincibility had evaporated. Losing to the Cavaliers by 21
points? Could a squad that still included Michael Jordan have
deteriorated into just another team?

The answer may have come, in part, last Friday and Saturday in
Bulls' wins at the United Center over the Charlotte Hornets,
105-92, and the Cavaliers, 79-70. In those victories Jordan
exhibited some of his trademark swagger, dunking and shooting
and playing defense with an exclamation point. Crisis
averted--for the moment, anyway.

Still, the Bulls' worries for the long term lingered. Although
Jackson conceded that Chicago had reached "its lowest ebb in
three years" last week, he reserved final judgment until
seven-time All-Star Scottie Pippen, who underwent surgery on
Oct. 6 to repair a soft tissue injury to his left foot, sees his
first action of 1997-98, probably in mid-December. "I'm not
going to beat these guys up over losing games we would have won
with Scottie," Jackson said last Friday.



ORIGINAL LAYOUT
Pippen's absence, however, has shown how vital a cog he is in
the Bulls' machine. While Pippen has long been recognized as one
of the game's top players, his accolades customarily have come
with an addendum: He couldn't have done it without Jordan. What
hadn't occurred to many observers was that perhaps Jordan
couldn't have done it without Pippen.

Pippen is central to the delicate balance of Chicago's triangle
offense. He's the primary ball handler and an unselfish
distributor who often passes up his own scoring opportunity to
create a better one for a teammate. Moreover, as a perimeter
threat, he makes opponents pay for double-teaming Jordan.

They started the season 9-7. They went 15-4 after that, and then Pippen came back. Quick basketball reference research.

Exactly they started off 9-7 , and had already lost more games than they had lost starting out in the in the previous 2 seasons, and they looked really bad as far as the flow off the offense. They were absolutely terrible, losing games by double digits. Sports illustrated did a write up on it and the issues were clear as day. Scottie was a main cog if not the main cog. Considering their record in the past 2 seasons, especially the 72-10 season, the City was pissed.

I was here in Chicago and it was bad, so that 24-11 record does not showcase how bad it was. Again 2 years prior they were 72-10 for the season. And Already had more losses before the allStar break. Team was barely scoring 80 points, offense didn’t move. Defense had went to shit. Etc And even though we won the championship it didn’t feel like it because of how badly the team played for most of the season and all the drama that came with it.

And from there the breakup talks were constantly in the news.

SI writeup:

https://www.si.com/vault/1997/11/24/235238/hurry-back-lacking-injured-catalyst-scottie-pippen-and-a-lot-of-their-old-fire-the-bulls-have-been-struggling-just-to-score

I couldn’t have cared less about the Bulls really, so media narratives weren’t something I cared about or paid attention to. Everybody knew when it got to playoff time that the Bulls were going to win it again.

Ha! Glad the documentary is coming out to show how bad things were.

Dude bulls barely made it to the championship. Pacers pushed them to 7 games, and only one other team forced the bulls to 7 games in a series throughout the dynasty run , and that was the Knicks back in 1993.

No one was sure that the bulls were going to win that year, not even the organization. Everyone knew it was the last year the team was going to be together. There was too much drama going ...too much. Had that team stayed together they wouldn’t have won it all the following year. Jordan was old ( which was obvious), Harper had aged, the bench wasn’t as good, and other teams were stronger and younger.

Winning the championship that year was more of a relief than a celebration.

“ it was the last dance”

wasn’t no celebrating or thinking they weren’t going to win another ring.

Just knew it wasn’t going to be a record breaking season

Who the hell cares?

Just watch the documentary to see how difficult that season was.

I’m old af so I remember it differently. It was more of a “these niggas will get it together”

and I’m sure they are going to be dramatic af for all those years. Prolly some real good stories we never heard about.

I was in my 20s.

And it was dramatic for the people in Chicago, because of the constant coverage, from the radio to the TV. And back in those days radio was huge,especially in chicago, because chicago is still a huge radio city. I still listen to WMVP ESPN Chicago daily ( on AM!).

It was like what the hell is going on? Why are we not blowing weak teams a way? And then Dennis Rodman with his constant stuff off the court, and Jordan saying that he will not play for another coach,etc.

I can understand your take because you were on the outside, so as most outside viewers you probably couldn't see anyone beating the bulls. It's similar to how people view the patriots, even though they have tons of crap going on, like cheating incidents, brady declining and getting older, defense and offense not what it used to be. But people are still thinking they are the patriots, and they will eventually get it together even though they look like shit. Actually, the patriots situation is a great example.


Also, think about the upcoming teams that year. They were hungry and coming on strong and they knew the bulls were weak, especially the pacers. We won the central by 1 or 2 games.

Lakers won 61 games that year. and that was the rising of Shaq, Kobe, Fox, Horry and Fisher.

Pacers team was deep as fuck from the starters to the bench

Heat under Riley,

Jersey was coming on.

And the Spurs had the blocks in place to start their dynasty. that was duncan's rookie year and they won 56 games.

pacers, jersey, spurs, lakers all went to the championship a few years later.

------------------------------

Once the bulls' starting lineup could no longer put up points and blow teams out, our bench wasn't the type of bench to come from behind or extend leads. Our bench was designed to manage the game while the starters got at least 5-7 mins rest. Kerr, Kukoc were the main scorers, with wennington and Judd to hit a few shots here and there. And then you had players like Burrell, Caffery and Brown. Now compare that bench to what other teams had going for them. A new generation of players had come....

I can 100 percent say that I'm glad the team didn't come back because it would have been a sad,sad downfall. They went out on top even though it was a huge struggle.

-Was coming off back to back seasons in which they played 100+ games (Jordan played all 82 games each season at almost 38mpg. This is why I laugh at the load management dudes. You get paid millions to sacrifice your body for the entertainment of basketball fans and can retire by 35-40 most instances with more money than most people see in a lifetime but you need games off? You already get summers off!!!)

-Had, to that point, the most winningest 2 seasons span (72 and 69 wins) in history.

-The second best player on the team missed 35 games and an aging Jordan led them to what was essentially a 56 win pace (which would have been the second best record in the east and tied for 5th best overall) basically being triple teamed every night.

Jason Caffey and Randy Brown were starting a portion of the early part of the season when Pip was out. But Pip was the team? Nah fam.

Fam: "I'm not
going to beat these guys up over losing games we would have won
with Scottie," Jackson said last Friday.

That’s all you need to know.

That statement could literally be said about any team missing one of it's top 2 players.

Let me f*ck your whole sh*t up though...earlier you said, as a reasoning as to why Pip was so important, was that when Mike retired, the Bulls were 1 game from the ECF.

That year, the Bulls, without their best player, went 55-27. Had the 3rd best record in the East and was tied for the 6th best record overall. You know how they started that season: 4-7. Yup. They were 4-7 to start the year without MJ. After 16 games they were 8-8. Pippen and Horace Grant were both 28, BJ was 26 and Kukoc was 25 as a rookie who had played several yrs of pro ball overseas.

So if you're looking at it comparatively by YOUR criterion, the bulls, sans Pippen in 97/98 actually started BETTER than the 94/95 bulls sans Jordan. And to top it off, Jordan was 34 when this season started, had a much OLDER supporting cast (Rodman 36, Longley and Kukoc 29, Kerr 32, Harper 34) and yet he led the team to a 24-11 record which was a better pace than the 94/95 team finished at.

And let's not forget what I'm disputing. You said:

"The main piece to all of it was Scottie Pippen, hands down. And Krause made that happen. Jordan sometimes gets too much credit.

Case in point, at the beginning of the last championship run, Pippen missed 2-3 months due to toe surgery, the bulls were absolutely terrible during that time. I think they went 9-7 or 8-8. That's when talks really started to heat up about dismantling the team."

^^^This is Bullsh*t revisionist history fallacy and you should be ashamed of the poor reasoning without context.

Ain’t shit revisionist about that. They were terrible during that stretch. It was clear as day , and since Phil already knew that Krause wasn’t bringing him back, and Jordan not wanting to play for any other coach, talks about the inevitable breakup intensified. That’s all that was being discussed. That they didn’t look the same. That they looked slower

Also Jordan was getting old even though he was still a great player. His scoring average dropped and his shooting percentage dropped. Plus the bulls had the second oldest team in the league. And that really showcased itself when Scottie was out.

That sixth year was way less dominating than their previous 5 championships, and a struggle from beginning to end. As I stated before, they won the division by 2 games over Indiana , and Indiana took them 7 games in the ECF. Indiana definitely had the better, younger team. Bulls’experience got them over. But it was pretty evident that the team needed to be broken up....it was the last dance. Run was done.....also having to deal with pacer fans talking shit on the radio.

There wasn’t anything dominating or decisive about that season, and it was mired in tons of speculation, uncertainty, and drama about the team. Winning the championship that year was more a relief , than it was a huge celebration.

Why do you think we are about to watch a documentary, not about on how great that season was, but on how much of struggle it was on and off the court.

>
>They wouldn't have been a dynasty. However, he would have put
>together a championship.

By the time he drafted Pippen, Jordan was already established as THE TRUTH. Would he have had the freedom to make such moves if they were still searching for a number one? Or, likely in possession of the league's worst record and PICKING number 1?

>The main piece to all of it was Scottie Pippen, hands down.
>And Krause made that happen. Jordan sometimes gets too much
>credit.
>
>Case in point, at the beginning of the last championship run,
>Pippen missed 2-3 months due to toe surgery, the bulls were
>absolutely terrible during that time. I think they went 9-7 or
>8-8. That's when talks really started to heat up about
>dismantling the team.
>
>Pippen was the one who ran the triangle offense the way it was
>supposed to be run, because just like Kobe ,Jordan would break
>the offense ...a lot. Jordan couldn't run it the right way,
>which led to a lot of isolations. ....and the bulls lost a
>lot.
>
>Scottie Pippen was the true center piece bro.

There's no question that they're NLT top 5 NBA duo of all time. However, MJ had Pip for the remainder of his Bulls career after year 3, so he was never going to play with as talented or a more talented team without Pip. However, Pip was on a tremendously talented and deep Blazers team that SHOULD have put the Lakers away in 2000. The "MJ never won a ring without Pip" is such a weak argument, especially since the same folks making that claim overlook Pip's 2000 letdown with the Blazers. He reinforced or proved once and for all in that series that as great as he was, he was not an Alpha Dog. That's why he and Mike worked so well together.

Let down with the blazers?

What he did with the blazers was beyond incredible , which is why he always gets commended for it, considering with what he had to deal with it.

- He had an old Sabonis, whose body was taped together with duck tape. Now what was impressive is that he was he still killing cats at his age, which shows you how great he was. But with a prime Sabonis lakers would have been destroyed.

- they were called the jail blazers for a reason. Pippen was working with a young Wallace, a young Randolph, a young Wells, a young stoudamire. Cats were constantly in trouble with law, etc. just imagine if Scottie had those guys when they became mature. It was because of Scottie they got that far. Scottie’s leadership kept it together. Jordan wouldn’t have dealt with it. It wasn’t his character to help other teammates, which is why Scottie was needed to keep players involved and get them involved. Go read that Jailblazers book on how crazy those dudes were. jR rider was even on that team at one point.. And they even had Greg Anthony and Jermaine O’Neal....just a bunch of young crazy cats at the time.

- Scottie was wayyyy past his prime, which made what he did impressive. This was after leaving the rockets. He was 34 years old and in his 13th season. Just imagine if Scottie was with this team in his prime. Plus that was his first season with the team

- lakers were the favorites in the series, and Phil would have gotten fired had he lost that series. I still remember Magic Johnson being angry that the lakers were down by 15 on national TV.. The lakers were stacked and Portland had no business even being there.

His stint with Portland puts his greatness on even a higher level. Paul Allen stated it himself.

Jordan without pippen didn’t go well and the triangle would rarely get run. This is why Jordan talked about how Tex winter would come down on him about breaking the triangle in his hall of fame speech. “ there is no I in team” ...Jordan: “ but there is an I in win”.

The bottom line: Jordan never advanced without Pippen or Jackson. Pippen has won without both and Jackson won without both. Just stating facts

Don’t assassinate my character liked that, fam

>Let down with the blazers?
>
>What he did with the blazers was beyond incredible , which is
>why he always gets commended for it, considering with what he
>had to deal with it.
>
>- He had an old Sabonis, whose body was taped together with
>duck tape. Now what was impressive is that he was he still
>killing cats at his age, which shows you how great he was. But
>with a prime Sabonis lakers would have been destroyed.

Fam, Sabonis STARTED in the NBA at 30. FOH with "Prime Sabonis"
>
>- they were called the jail blazers for a reason. Pippen was
>working with a young Wallace, a young Randolph, a young Wells,
>a young stoudamire. Cats were constantly in trouble with law,
>etc. just imagine if Scottie had those guys when they became
>mature. It was because of Scottie they got that far.
>Scottie’s leadership kept it together.

his numbers weren't remarkable.

Jordan wouldn’t
>have dealt with it. It wasn’t his character to help other
>teammates, which is why Scottie was needed to keep players
>involved and get them involved.
lol
Does anyone honestly believe that Pippen becoming possibly the best perimeter defender was a coincidence, or who he got to go against everyday in practice?

MJ was certified G BEFORE Pip showed up so let's not act like his offensive repertoire was due to Pip.

Go read that Jailblazers book
>on how crazy those dudes were. jR rider was even on that team
>at one point.. And they even had Greg Anthony and Jermaine
>O’Neal....just a bunch of young crazy cats at the time.
their crazy ain't got nothing to do with a Game 7 THEY SHOULD HAVE HAD.

>- Scottie was wayyyy past his prime, which made what he did
>impressive. This was after leaving the rockets. He was 34
>years old and in his 13th season. Just imagine if Scottie was
>with this team in his prime. Plus that was his first season
>with the team
ok so when the Bulls won their 6th title, Michael was 35. Why are you making Scottie sound like a relic? This ain't a time capsule, we can't have everybody in their prime, we have them when we do.


>- lakers were the favorites in the series, and Phil would have
> gotten fired had he lost that series. I still remember Magic
>Johnson being angry that the lakers were down by 15 on
>national TV.. The lakers were stacked and Portland had no
>business even being there.
all that notwithstanding, Jordan ain't blowing a 15 point 4th quarter lead.
>
>His stint with Portland puts his greatness on even a higher
>level. Paul Allen stated it himself.

ooooooh, afficionado Paul Allen!

>
>Jordan without pippen didn’t go well and the triangle would
>rarely get run. This is why Jordan talked about how Tex winter
>would come down on him about breaking the triangle in his hall
>of fame speech. “ there is no I in team” ...Jordan: “
>but there is an I in win”.
>
>The bottom line: Jordan never advanced without Pippen or
>Jackson. Pippen has won without both and Jackson won without
>both. Just stating facts

there is no "bottom line." Jordan never played on a contender once he was done with the Bulls. You're not trying to say that Jordan couldn't have won with other good players are you?




>

Sabonis was like 34- 35 that year, and almost every part of his body had been operated on, because Russia ran that dude in the ground. Do you realize how great Sabonis was? You see all these bigs dribbling, shooting threes , getting assists and moving like PGs . He was the first to do all that back in the 80s! He is the reason why the damn dream team was put together because Russia was killing cats because of him.

Sabonis was originally drafted by the Atlanta hawks in the 80s, but the draft was voided due to him not being age eligible at 21. Rules were different back then. He finally came into the nba later on, but he was already physically broken by then...but he still came
Over here and murked nba players while hobbled and limping

With a pre injury, pre 34 year old Sabonis, blazers would have mopped the league. No Fucking doubt about it.

Hell had the hawks been allowed to draft him, with Wilkins , doc rivers, tree Rollins , etc, Fucking lakers and Celtics might not have had dynasties.

We don’t know what Jordan would have done , because he didn’t do it. Pippen and Phil did. That’s the point.

Pippen ate up every single player in the draft camp with his two way ability. He was Krause’s greatest secret. Jordan had nothing to do with making pippen great. Shit was inevitable first time he hit the court.

whats the story there?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

but I'm surprised Bill Simmons didn't get his hands on this while he was at ESPN. Or perhaps his Boston blinders hindered him from doing something with that footage.

and without him there's no documentary

maybe I just made that up, but it's not like the footage wasn't known about and I'm sure any number of people wanted to do the project

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

With somebody who can add more insight instead of just being famous.
Who needs their 2 cents, this flick will be watched regardless.

but, I'd rather hear Kobe's take on a basketball doc than his.

I’m pretty sure I’m going to here

“It was crazy, nah mean.. he’s like.. the greatest”

“blah blah blah.. John Starks dunk”

It was a nice dunk tho.. lol. Highlight of NY basketball on the 90’s

I literally did that in my head when I was replying.

"I mean...you know...when son was in town it was like...must see, yaknow? Like...son was royalty, b"

no need for all of that.
i don't care to hear about how they all felt about it unless there is something they contribute that we didn't know already.
i'd rather hear bill wennington's take over all of theirs.
leave the other shit for the other corny docs with talking heads that should just stfu.

I think that was his second year, and he averaged 15 points a game that season. And that's when people really start saying that Kobe played just like Mike and was the second coming of mike. Also, I think that was the year they played in the same all star game and the iconic pick of them leaning over side by side took place, where mike was giving him advice on when to spin off a post up move ( "when you feel the defender on your legs").

That was the year the torch was passed.

Plus the lakers were on the rise. They had won 61 games that year. So kobe is going to have an immense amount of insight!


Yeah timberlake shouldn't be there, but I guess they are going to side be side the success of the bulls and nsync...because they were both the biggest entertainment sensation in america during that time.

I can’t really see how *NSYNC’s success will be compared to TJ e Bulls unless someone played that shit in the locker room

It’s a period piece. So Everything major that was going own at the time was and will be juxtaposed.

- Clinton sex scandal
- home run record Chase
- America really hearing the name bin laden for the first time.
- resurgence of boy bands after grunge music had dominated for the early part of the 90s.

So I’m sure they’ll speak briefly on it.


Plus Justin:
- had a shoe deal with Jordan brand
- was a minority owner of the Grizzlies

So basically all the above.



It’s a ten part series.. they are going to go in. Can’t wait for the Rodman stuff

He’s cool with MJ and Tinker...and has his own J color way.

.

Nigga prolly performed the half time show as well.

I wouldn't put too much stock in what their input is.
It was just to show a face.

The holiday commercial blitz is too much

Woulda made more sense to promote during the nba playoffs

I would like to watch it...but 6 months from now...c’mon man

Agreed. It makes no sense. 6 months away?
And it’s ten parts. Does that mean it will run for ten days? How many minutes per segment? 1 hour? 2 hours?

10 parts seem way too long.

Turns out it was perfect.
The subject matter required all the episodes.

I'm hoping this is in the same vein.
It's not just about that last Bulls run.
It's about the NBA. Jordan. Sports culture. Race. Celebrity.

Or at least early 2019.
At the time it was hard to get excited about a series that's over a year away.
I agree the roll out of this has been horrible.

the entire target audience is talking about it.

that's the whole point of a rollout and starting this early

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

this aint a normal ass 30 for 30.

https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/1244819227279675395
-----
ESPN is moving the start date for its 10-part Michael Jordan documentary, “The Last Dance,” to Sunday, April 19. It was originally slated for June.
-----

I think this is going to be on the level of the OJ one they did a few years ago, albeit not as morbid.

Even just the little film they've teased looks stunning

OJ: Made In America was about more than just the trial or OJ.

With 10 episodes I'm excited to see where they go with it.

.

..TOKPR.

Hilarisad.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29044827/an-all-access-michael-jordan-documentary-how-last-dance-was-made-possible
-----

An all-access Michael Jordan documentary? How 'The Last Dance' was made possible

THE PITCH WAS as audacious in 1997 as it would be today.

A producer for NBA Entertainment wanted to do an all-access, season-long documentary with Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls as they headed into what was likely to be their final season together.

In the huddles as Phil Jackson coached. Behind closed doors as Michael Jordan barked instructions and four-letter words. In the training room as Scottie Pippen vented about general manager Jerry Krause's publicly humiliating trade discussions involving him. Off the court -- or Atlantic City, in the case of Dennis Rodman, who escaped there in the middle of the Finals to wrestle Hulk Hogan.

Asking for this kind of access, with a team with as much controversy and pressure swirling around it as the 1997-98 Bulls, was unprecedented.

"I mean, then, as it is now, Michael was one of the most famous people on the planet," said NBA commissioner Adam Silver, who was the head of NBA Entertainment at the time. "And there were rumors that it was going to be Michael's last season."

NBA Entertainment producer Andy Thompson wasn't worried about any of that when he pitched the idea to his bosses, Silver and executive Gregg Winik.

"I remember thinking, 'Man, this guy is going to retire,'" Thompson said. "'And we've never really fully documented a year in the life of potentially the greatest athlete in the history of the sport.'"

Thompson, the younger brother of Los Angeles Lakers center Mychal Thompson and uncle to future Golden State Warriors guard Klay Thompson, had built a relationship with Jordan and shot several home videos that involved him over the years. But nothing as extensive as this. Nobody had.

But Silver believed in NBAE's mission as the league's archivist, and in opening up the game and its personalities to the world. That meant more than postgame interviews and home videos of championship runs. To do something more, he would have to convince the best team in the league and the best player in the league to let cameras into their inner sanctum.

He started by asking Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf, who was open to the idea, but only if Jordan and Jackson were on board.

"The coach, at the end of the day, controls the locker room," Silver said. "So we needed Phil's cooperation."

You can actually see Silver meeting with Jackson on the steps of the Bulls team hotel in Paris, in Episode 1 of "The Last Dance," the 10-part documentary on the 1997-98 Bulls, which begins airing on ESPN at 9 p.m. ET Sunday and continues for the next five weeks.

"Phil was great," Silver said. "He got it."

As long as Jackson had the ability to wave off Thompson and his cameras from time to time, he was OK with trading some privacy in the name of history.

It took a different approach to convince Jordan, however.

"There was no negotiation whatsoever," Silver explained. "All I said was, 'I'm sure there'll maybe be a tough negotiation at some point, but we don't have to have it now.' Because first and foremost, we have to capture the footage."

Then he offered Jordan the one thing he couldn't turn down: control.

"Our agreement will be that neither one of us can use this footage without the other's permission," Silver told Jordan. "It will be kept -- I mean literally it was physical film -- as a separate part of our Secaucus library. Our producers won't have access to it. It will only be used with your permission."

Now that was something.

Jordan had successfully controlled his likeness since he came into the league in 1984. He was one of two players (fellow David Falk client Patrick Ewing was the other) who opted out of the players' union's group licensing program, figuring correctly they'd make exponentially more by doing their own marketing deals.

When he'd sue to enforce that deal, Falk's argument was that the value of Jordan's image became diluted each time it was used. But if Silver was willing to front all of the production costs and give Jordan control over the content, there wasn't much downside.

"Worst-case scenario," Silver told Jordan, "you'll have the greatest set of home movies for your kids ever created."

It was a brilliant pitch, and maybe the only one Jordan would have agreed to. When Jordan hit the winning shot in the 1998 NBA Finals to clinch the Bulls' sixth NBA title and second three-peat, Thompson felt he had just shot one of the most incredible sports documentaries ever.

"I mean the guy scores 45 points and pretty much won the game by himself," Thompson said. "You couldn't ask for a better ending than that."

But for the next two decades, those home movies -- more than 500 hours of film -- sat in a vault in Secaucus.

"I just couldn't understand how it wasn't being made," Thompson said.

He had stayed in touch with Jordan after he retired, even considered him a friend. But this wasn't something he could ask him about, much less push him to do.

One day, he thought.

One day Jordan will be ready.

EVERY FEW YEARS a producer would come along, pitching himself as the right person to make the documentary. Frank Marshall, Spike Lee, even actor Danny DeVito gave it a whirl.

According to Jordan's longtime business partner, Curtis Polk, none of them ever even made it to a face-to-face meeting with Jordan.

"When you think of the typical documentaries, before the last five years, they generally ran about 80 minutes," Polk said. "And you couldn't capture this at 80 minutes. Even if you just focused on '97-'98 ... you're not really capturing the totality of it. You're not going to understand what Michael was about or what the Bulls were doing when they were talking about breaking it up."

With each "no," the project receded further from view. Fewer and fewer people even knew about it as the years went on. But for the people who did know, the footage took on an almost mythical quality.

Connor Schell was a young development executive at ESPN in 2006 when he first learned that footage of Jordan's last year with the Bulls existed. A contact at NBA Entertainment sent over a rough cut that had been produced in-house in 2003, just to pique his interest, and maybe get a little oxygen for the project.

The DVD was mostly a bunch of highlights and behind-the-scenes moments, with a narrator that sounded an awful lot like actor John Cusack -- who was in the film a bunch because he went to a lot of Bulls games and interacted with the players -- but wasn't actually John Cusack.

"They had made this thing, and I was like, 'OK, the underlying footage and the access they had is amazing, and of course it's freakin' Michael Jordan. So what are you guys going to do with this?'" said Schell, who is now ESPN's executive vice president of content and an executive producer of "The Last Dance." "And they said, 'We don't know. What would you guys do with it?'"

Schell could think of plenty of things to do with it. There was no buy-in from Jordan, however, which meant the project couldn't and wouldn't go anywhere.

But Schell never forgot about the footage. And when he and co-creator Bill Simmons were brainstorming ideas for 30 for 30 films in 2009, they couldn't get it out of their heads.

"I've moved cities and building and offices like five times since I first saw it in 2006, but I still know exactly where that DVD is," Schell said. "It's in the cabinet right behind my desk. I'm picturing it now ... this gold DVD, in this really basic jewel case, and the title is written with a Sharpie.

"This Jordan archive is just sitting there, and it's the most desirable archive you could possibly stumble upon. But no one was ever able to bring together all the elements to make it work."

Producer Mike Tollin had known about the footage since Falk appeared as a guest star on an episode of "Arli$$," the HBO show about a fictional sports agent that Tollin executive produced from 1996 to 2003.

Tollin would go on to do dozens of critically acclaimed documentaries, movies such as "Varsity Blues" and "Coach Carter," and television series such as "Smallville," "One Tree Hill," "What I Like About You" and "All That." But he never forgot about the unseen footage of Jordan's last year with the Bulls.

"It was like a treasure trove," Tollin said.

In February 2016, he saw an opening.

"The O.J. documentary had just premiered at Sundance the previous month at eight episodes and like 450 minutes," Tollin said. " had just premiered on Netflix at 10 episodes. ... People were now consuming longform documentaries, multipart documentaries.

"As a guy who's done documentaries since the '70s, less was always more. And now all of a sudden, more is more."

He arranged a meeting with Polk and Estee Portnoy, two of Jordan's most trusted business associates, to make his pitch.

"So I said to them, 'We could do this as six or eight episodes. So we can see the character arcs play out over the course of all this time. We can see the storylines, we can really dig in and tell the story that nobody's ever really contextualized properly,'" Tollin said.

Over the next few months, the conversations continued. Tollin sketched out a proposal of what an eight-episode series might look like. Finally, in June 2016, a meeting was set with Jordan, now owner of the Charlotte Hornets.

"He was preparing for the draft; they knew he'd be there in Charlotte," Tollin recalled. "They knew he hated meetings, so they said, 'Why don't you come and just hang out with us. There will be a break in the action between meetings, and we'll get some time with him?'"

Nothing firm. Nothing scheduled. That was about as good as it was going to get.

Tollin hopped on a red-eye from Los Angeles to Charlotte, checked into the Westin hotel around 8 a.m. and tried to catch a couple of hours of sleep before connecting with Portnoy.

"The universe has such a funny sense of humor," Tollin said. "Because when I woke up, I put on ESPN while I'm getting dressed, and there's LeBron and the Cavaliers parading through the streets of Cleveland with the trophy that they'd just won."

He headed over to Jordan's office at the Hornets' arena, hoping he would get a chance to present the lookbook he had made. No one had ever gotten this close before. But Portnoy and Polk could only open the door. Tollin had to close Jordan.

"The first page was a letter that I'd written to him," Tollin said. "Dear Michael, every day kids come into my office wearing your shoes, who've never seen you play.

"It's time."

Tollin could tell Jordan was engaged, because he stopped for a moment to put on his reading glasses.

"I'm thinking to myself, 'Wait, Michael Jordan needs reading glasses?'" Tolin said. "Well, he's 53. That's right. Yeah, OK."

Jordan read every page. He looked at the pictures. He read the quotes. Then he smiled as he looked at the eight episode thumbnail sketches.

The last page of the presentation was a look at the documentaries, movies and shows Tollin and his company, Mandalay Sports Media, had done.

"So there's Kareem , there's Hank Aaron, there's 'Varsity Blues,' there's 'Coach Carter' and so forth," Tollin said. "He's actually looking at them all, and in the bottom right corner is 'Iverson.' He goes, 'You did that?'"

Tollin didn't answer. Jordan repeated the question.

Tollin wondered if this was going to work for or against him. Like the timing with the Cavaliers' championship parade that morning, it was impossible to know.

Tollin mumbled a cautious, "Yes."

Jordan took his glasses off, looked up and said, "I watched that thing three times. Made me cry. Love that little guy."

Then he walked around the desk, extended his hand and said, "Let's do it."

FOR THE PAST two years, Jason Hehir's job has been to figure out why Jordan was finally ready.

Hehir didn't know Jordan when Tollin and Schell offered him the chance to direct the series. But he had read a story by ESPN's Wright Thompson in 2013, in which Jordan said he never saw himself living beyond the age of 50. He figured that was connected.

"I discussed with Michael," Hehir said. "And I think it's because he cannot picture himself as slowing down. He can't picture himself as not being in peak form. So it's not that he had a death wish or that he was morbid; it's just that he couldn't fathom what an old man Michael Jordan would look like."

Doing a documentary, especially one purporting to be a definitive look at him, felt like something an old man would do at the end of his life.

"In his defense, the guy's 56. He's got half his life left to live," Hehir said. "I think he bristles at the notion of any project being definitive because it means his story is over.

"He bristles at the notion of a number being hung in the rafters. He bristled at the statue when they put that up while he was on his baseball hiatus."

Former Bulls teammate B.J. Armstrong told Hehir that before Jordan was eligible for the Hall of Fame, he called to ask what the rules on eligibility were. Armstrong, who'd gone on to become a successful player agent, told him it was five years after a player's last game.

Jordan then asked, if he checked into a game, and played one play, would it delay his induction another five years?

"Michael does not want to be a statue," Hehir said. "He doesn't want to be looked at as something in the past."

Hehir had to understand that to tell this story. It wasn't a precondition or a restriction. It was essential to comprehending the competitive nature and swagger of the man at the center of the story. And it is as true today as it was during his playing career.

When Hehir interviewed Jordan's daughter Jasmine, she told him that when she was about to give birth, she asked her father what he wanted to be called? Grandpa? Pops? Grandpops?

Jordan thought about it for a moment, then said, "'Have him call me Michael.'"

This desire to control time, or at least try to bend it to his will, is quintessentially Jordan. The man built his persona on outworking and outwilling people.

Those were his terms as a player and a teammate. Anyone who couldn't meet them didn't belong on his team.

In many ways, those are still his terms.

He couldn't control time. But he could control when he allowed someone to tell his story.

So this isn't the definitive documentary about one of the greatest players of all time, Michael Jordan. It's a documentary about one of the greatest teams of all time, the 1997-98 Bulls, with Jordan as a leading character.

And he was ready to tell it, right after another player (James) and another team (the Warriors) got dangerously close to challenging those legacies.

I haven't even watched the first 5 minutes they dropped. Really hope this is worth the hype.

With that footage, they could have easily made another documentary that was focused on Jordan’s greatness, and how he won his last championship....

Jordan ( through the guidance of David Faulk) has always been in command with how his image is illustrated. Just goes to show you how savvy Adam Silver is , with getting Jordan to envision the reward instead of worrying about the risk.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Dave used to be a NBA scout in the 80s, and when Jerry Krause selected Brad Sellers in the nba draft, Kaplan trashed the pick,and rightfully so. Kaplan felt that John Salley was the better big man, and he was correct. Brad Sellers was a bust, and Salley went on to become a good serviceable big man for the Pistons, Bulls and Lakers, and helped all three teams win championships.

After Dave criticized the selection, Krause refused to speak to Dave. Dave would speak to him in passing, but Krause would just ignore him. So, one day, Dave asked him why was he refusing to speak to him. Jerry Porter Krause replied: “ You humiliated me by criticizing my pick.” Kap said that he was shocked by the reply , because he was just doing his job as a scout. Anyway, Krause continued to ignore Kap., and it wasn’t until Krause’s health started to decline that he called up Kap to apologize for not speaking to him. They buried that matter, and Krause died after that. Dave didn’t speak on the actual date, but I imagine that took place around 2016/2017.

I wonder if Krause called everyone that he was at odds with to bury the hatchet. All of it was business anyway.

I remember he said this about Jordan:

“I’m the only one who has told him no. … This kid has had his butt kissed by everyone in the world except his parents and me,” Krause told SI. “If we’d listened to him, we’d have (former UNC guard) Buzz Peterson on the team!

“My goal is not to be his friend. My goal is to win titles.”

Shit. Krause’s Fire to prove he was a great GM and Jordan’s Fire to prove that he was the greatest of all time ...as well as both trying to prove that they were more important than the other helped drive the bulls to win titles.

I hope they talk about all the heated moments between the two that season.

maybe its just me...but it gets kinda confusing when they just go from the last season to the early seasons and vice versa.

i wonder why they made that creative decision.

it was written about the same period and does the same thing, in almost the same order.

it works, but it's a little confusing.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Well, fucking, done

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

now that I know it's the folks who did Iverson it makes sense.



www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

You have a FULL 82 GAME SEASON + PLAYOFFS worth of BTS footage, along with 13 years of archival content. And then 100+ interviews or whatever it is.

The 10 hours of total runtime helps to flesh everything out without rushing though it, but this is an incredibly difficult lift regardless. The storylines could be told in so many different ways. I love the approach they settled on.

Didn’t learn anything new in ep 1 <shrug>

Great, as always, to watch MJ highlights

But the draw is MJ’s personal insight

He never talks

To get him to sit down and be interviewed for the doc is the crowning achievement of the piece

I really wanted alot more of that, ALOT

Like the only interview for the doc alot

Scottie, Feel, Rodman, etc...I don’t need to hear from them

They’ve been very vocal over the years

Didn’t really occur to me until the doc started and MJ takes a seat...that he never does this

I was expecting more insight from him personally...so I’m a bit letdown by ep 1

Hopefully there’s more from him in future eps.

They exposed a lot of stuff, and went into great detail about his ankle injury. We knew the bulls didn’t want to play him , and the battle he had with management regarding wanting to play. However, that was the first time, for me, they showed and talked about the Golden State game. And how he was telling Stanley to fuck those guys and let him play, and that they refused to play him past 14 mins, not a second more.

Also the story he told about the bulls veterans when he was a rookie, and how the veterans were doing cocaine a night before a preseason game down in Peoria and how he walked in on them. That incident was never revealed prior to that.

They are not going to drop major bombs during the first episode. However, It made for a nice appetizer.

What we got were intros to 3 different story lines

The parallel stories of MJ and the Bulls, pre and during Jordan’s career

and the climatic power struggle of an ending

My concern is that there isn’t the deep dive into MJ specifically given the unprecedented access to him personally

We didn’t get anything on his background before bball
He didn’t personally speak about his time at UNC and his relationship with Dean Smith
Etc...

I’m hoping in the remaining episodes there will be more focus on specific topics

But based on ep 1, it feels very superficial

Maybe I’m older than you, but the idea of nba players using cocaine in the 70s/80s is not a revelation <shrug>

I guess I was hoping more for the Kobe narrative, where he’s actually breaking down film, situations, matchups, etc...

Still incredibly entertaining, but based on ep 1, it feels like a blown opportunity to get into the GOAT’s head.

I feel like we definitely got insight in both episodes. Maybe not what you WANT specifically but for example I was SHOCKED to hear him talk about growing up Black in NC. Not to say he had a full on 'I'm not Black, I'm OJ' career, but it definitely felt that way sometimes

>I feel like we definitely got insight in both episodes. Maybe
>not what you WANT specifically but for example I was SHOCKED
>to hear him talk about growing up Black in NC. Not to say he
>had a full on 'I'm not Black, I'm OJ' career, but it
>definitely felt that way sometimes

I was like how heads talking Ep 1 alone on Monday morning?

The hotel incident was insightful about the lengths he went to protect his image. Even as a rookie, rather than wanting to fit in, he chose to go his own way and focus on the craft. Hard for us to appreciate how damn country his ass was when he first got to Chicago,but imagine he had indulged? I wonder if they're going to talk about Len Bias vis a vis coke and Mike's encounter with it...

The timelines don't exactly converge. Bias was a freshman Jordan's junior year? And Bias got drafted in 86 after Jordan's coming out series vs Boston.

I don’t WANT to hear from David Aldridge or Bill Wennington...

I want to hear from MJ

The series was pitched as full access to the 97-98 season

Coupled with present day interviews

Let’s not pretend that MJ isn’t still the draw here.

I want to hear it from him.

Of course my opinion is based on what I want...wtf

IMO, the Tarantino non-linear timeline was a bad choice

Ep 2, they’re talking about his development in HS...next scene is 85-86...

Maybe the idea was to have each episode stand on it’s own

?

But as a series, it’s really all over the place

Still entertaining...but I’m willing to bet it doesn’t fully answer some of the bigger questions by the conclusion of the series

>IMO, the Tarantino non-linear timeline was a bad choice

That I loved.

1. Non-linear timelines for documentaries is NOT easy.
2. There were great connections between the eras. They did a great job of
showing a trait MJ had in HS or college and connecting it with 97/98.
Again, making those connections is not easy.

3. The timeline kept the film moving. OJ Made In America (while dealing with a much more complicated subject line) also did this. They started with him in jail as a cold open. Once the opening was over, the story begins at USC. We don't get to his childhood until later, and the purpose is to tie it to something in another era.

So I'm aware of the prominence of crack and cocaine in the 70s and 80s, especially in sports. However, it was never covered in great detail of how it was taking place in the Bulls' organization.

That was eye opening because jordan had to face it as a 21 year old...

otherwise for example, the krause stuff just looks like mj and them being assholes to a short fat dude when you show the raw footage.

here you see everyone is justfied being an ass to krause because he was the biggest ass around. thats just 1 instance.

i figured i would just set it to record and watch at some point in the week, nope. i was waiting for it and watched both episodes. i will be waiting to watch the next episode.

I've seen the Come Fly With Me/Playground et al, but this went in deeper.

I think I read in one of his books about getting in a fight with a white kid who called him nigger, but I've never heard him talk about the racism in that area or even how he was directed to sports. Knew about Larry being the mountain he had to surpass, but not to the depth explained about having to fight it out or (surprise surprise) to earn his father's affection/approval.

And who knew that Paxson's first big shot took place in the spring of 86?

Can't.not.fucking.wait.for.this.Pistons.shit.

<

ESPN App is supposed to have it to watch for free according to an article I read, haven't checked tho.

Here I was last night contemplating re-upping ESPN+ lucky to find out ESPN+ wasn't broadcasting it just hours before.

But Watch ESPN which usually requires a cable account (my mom recently moved and finally cut her cord) is DEFINITELY airing this for free. At least Episode 1.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

hulu/espn+/disney+ for $12.99 a month. Figured out at like 9:54 that ESPN+ wasn't showing it. Luckily I have a homie's {redacted} login but I was scrambling lol

golf relationship with Flukey Stokes, and him constantly losing money to flukey. And will they go in on his gambling, especially his gambling in jersey during the 1993 eastern conference finals.


I'm just glad people outside of illinois are seeing just how much of a shit show it was , and how tormenting that season was.

Can you imagine winning a championship, and you go to the post championship game interview, and you're immediately hit with questions regarding the team breaking up and Phil not coming back?

That's all it was for the entire season...Phil not coming back, jordan not coming back, pippen and his contract, rodman and his crap off the court, etc, etc. Their play declined, and Indiana was dead on our heels all season long.

One thing people fail to realize is that the bulls were the second oldest team in the league, and it was clear that the team was regressing, because players were simply getting old, including jordan.


No way should that team have been brought back. So watching Jordan go out on top was the best and greatest thing to do, because the bulls and jordan would have lost the following season. It would have been a different story. Jerry Krause saw it, but he went about in a wrong way.

The reason why Krause no longer wanted Phil is, Phil refused to let Jerry connect with the team. Phil kept jerry out of the locker rooms, and didn't give him access to team meetings. So jerry wanted a coach that he could control, simply as that. People have to understand Jerry Krause bought Phil in as assistant out of the CBA, and groomed him for the position. He gave Phil his start. Phil was Jerry's guy, so for Phil to deny him that way definitely pissed him off, so Phil was no longer welcome.

The funny thing is Phil turned into the same kind of GM as Jerry with the Knicks...He got coaches that he could control, and only wanted them to run the triangle, and had a poor relationship with Carmleo, similar to what Jerry had with Jordan.

>
>One thing people fail to realize is that the bulls were the
>second oldest team in the league, and it was clear that the
>team was regressing, because players were simply getting old,
>including jordan.
>
>
>No way should that team have been brought back. So watching
>Jordan go out on top was the best and greatest thing to do,
>because the bulls and jordan would have lost the following
>season. It would have been a different story. Jerry Krause saw
>it, but he went about in a wrong way.

wasn't that the lockout shortened season? that old team would have had fresher legs than they had in years, and they surely would have gotten past that lovable old men Knicks team that was beaten by the Spurs.

No way their asses would have been handed to them.

- Indiana Pacers. The bulls won the division by just just 2 games, and the team took the bulls 7 games in the ECF. They were better, younger and their bench was insane. Bulls weren’t going to beat them the following year. The only reason the bulls advanced to the finals was because Toni Kukoc had s tremendous game in game 7

- Other teams had arrived. New Jersey nets became powerful. Lakers won 61 games that year, and Kobe and Shaq had formed. The Spurs dynasty seeds were put in place as well with Tim Duncan.

- Bulls’s bench was weak compared to everyone else’s at that point. They weren’t going to be able to just get by with Bill Wennington, Kerr, Buchler and Randy Brown anymore. The League had changed , and everyone was starting to jump out of the building with crazy athleticism. Bulls couldn’t match that.

...and they hit it early in ep 1...

Was the idea of dismantling and rebuilding after 97

I think reisndorf made the statement, and it really bothers me that Krause gets all the smoke

The owner had to believe that bullshit too

1 guy wanted to do that, no doubt Krause is a gaping asshole

But the owner’s choice was between Krause...1 guy

...or letting arguably the greatest coach of all time walk...and going full rebuild of a defending championship team...arguably the greatest of all time also

That’s an easy choice

These 2 twits are probably the only 2 people on earth that thought it was a good idea...and allstah apparently

It was the right thing to do, not after the 96/97 season, but damn for sure after the 97/98 season. Their run was done. Jordan went out on top and we didn’t have to suffer seeing him or the team get beaten

All other great dynasties got old and stomped on. Magic and the lakers , bird and the Celtics, Thomas and the pistons, Hakeem and the rockets, Kobe and shaq by the pistons, lebron and the heat, Lebron and the Cavs, Golden State Warriors ...all Those teams got bounced once their run was done.

Look at what is happening to Tom Brady and the Pats. Ali, sugar Ray Leonard, Oscar, Shane Mosley, Roy Jones. That is what makes Floyd so great. He left out on top.

Bulls were the second oldest team in the league and a lot of teams were younger and gotten better. The bulls were no longer dominating teams. They couldn’t just walk on the court and intimidate people.

It was a wrap, and that is what make gms great, knowing when to pull the plug.

Krause had a plan , but it didn’t go through. People forget that he was going to trade pippen for Tracy Mcgrady, and create a Tracy Mcgrady / Jordan/ rodman duo for the 97-98 season , and then build around Mcgrady once Jordan left. But Jordan vetoed the trade. Krause could have still pulled the plug but Jordan would have retired, therefore killing the entire plan.

Krause was preparing for the future because he saw the league changing as well as seeing the bulls getting old, and the Bulls always felt that scottie’s back was a ticking time bomb. Now his back never got worse ( thank god) but at the same time, as a GM, your job is to be proactive and not wait until things go bad.

Krause was a hell of a GM, and seeing the bulls go out on top was a perfect ending. Greed kills all things.

In 97, he was...18Y.O.?...and on the bench in TOR

Feels like you’re projecting the player he bacame in 2000

He wasn’t that yet.

Kukoc would have started over TMac in 98’

But you would’ve lost MJ with that move anyway...so why do you keep bringing it up?

MJ would’ve made TMac cry on the court/camera in 98.

Still puts me in a bad mood thinking about it, and I haven't been a Knick fan in 20+ years.

That said, this series is a must watch for anyone that remotely likes basketball. For kids that only know Jordan by the shoes it gives a good look at why he's still such a big deal.

and the rockets never faced them in the finals in that era, so as a reformed jordan hater I can just enjoy it.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>and the rockets never faced them in the finals in that era,
>so as a reformed jordan hater I can just enjoy it.

Can hate and still 100% enjoy this damn good content. (while wearing new 3s that i havent been able to wear on the sidewalk yet)

it's like a double dip

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I hate how he tormented Starks and Ewing, but could never deny he was the best in the league. I'll thoroughly enjoy the show, but I'm still not buying a pair of J's...

Hopefully that'll be the end of any references of Jordan tormenting the Knicks.

This feels as loud and violent and cool as the team did then. This somehow inspires the same aura as those Bulls teams

as my introduction to basketball was the 2nd 3peat starting as a 5 year old in 96

i remember watching probably 75% of that run w/ my grandma between NBC and WGN coverage. she was a mega UNC/MJ fan and kept the house and me and my cousins decked out in Jordan/Bulls stuff.

the only reality i knew is that the Bulls were going to win and the only mystery was how they would win.

Tempting, but I'm not trying to binge them all in one week and wait until May 17th to watch episodes 9-10. Or am I...

International Netflix is following the same release schedule as ESPN. Seems like somebody got a screener and leaked it. Can't speak to the quality but I know it's at least watermarked

"You have to stop him before he takes flight cause you know he's not human" -John Salley on Jordan

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

a couple weeks ago, he was on LeBatard for two straight shows...great story teller.

This was in the early days of podcasts. It was on the Adam Carolla Network (majorly wack) and co-hosted by Kevin Hench (who pretty much sucked).

Sallley was awesome though. He told my favorite Bird story on there.

but it was produced by carolla and my stomach turns every time I scroll over it on netflix


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I don’t think it survived anywhere but it used to be great.

Even if Hench sucked.

I wouldn't have done it any justice, typing it out. The Oakley part killed me.

https://youtu.be/w280Kd0faH4?t=6307

I wish we could have John Salley all throughout the series.

I've loved everything involving him since I was just getting into the NBA. He's terrific. He was even in a couple of movies over the years and was great.

https://twitter.com/KingJosiah54/status/1254620661177184258?s=20

I stand by my initial reaction

Not nearly enough MJ

They got the GOAT to participate in a 10 part doc and give sit down interviews

...and he's on-screen for maybe a couple of minutes...

I don't need to hear from Will Perdue

I want to hear it from MJ directly.

You want what he ate for pregame meals? You want to see him put on his UNC shorts?

We are getting never before seen footage. Unfiltered team plane rides, gambling, dancing, Rodman in Vegas....you baffle me

>You want what he ate for pregame meals? You want to see him
>put on his UNC shorts?
>
>We are getting never before seen footage. Unfiltered team
>plane rides, gambling, dancing, Rodman in Vegas....you baffle
>me

Yes, that is exactly what I want

I want MJ to tell us...why he chose UNC
What his relationship with Dean Smith was like
etc...

Yes, I would be extremely interested in his pre-game rituals and prep

Somehow, the GOAT, is still a bit of a mystery

...compared to contemporaries like Magic and Barkley...for whom we know so much more about their lives off the court

There's still so much about MJ that we don't know

...and this series isn't really giving me that insight...

+, I believe we've already gotten docs on Rodman, Feel and Scottie

MJ is the draw here

What you're getting unprecedented access to here...is MJ

...and his diminished participation in the series is glaring IMO...

it's about the Bulls. MJ is the center yes but the context is essential.

about a specific season called the last dance lol.

unveiling a previously unreleased treasure trove of footage specifically recorded during the last dance lol.

i have no idea why homie expected a full mj biography.

literally everyone else got it.

Based on watching the episode last night, it was inferred that Jordan went all the way to Las Vegas to drag Rodman away from his 48 hour vacation. However, according to the director of the documentary, Rodman was only across the street for the United Center and Jordan only had to take a five minute walk to retrieve Rodman.

Here's the link with the director discussing it himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT0aYnZnifk

i was confused about that. jordan really flew out to vegas and brought him back??

that makes more sense

at that moment, but other people seemed to have missed it
www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I wish the director didn't clarify. The true story isn't as good

Makes more sense to see him in pajama pants though

Proof of just how important and needed he was.

he said he went to vegas. and he said he wasn't back in time.


but no one ever said michael went to vegas, and if you listened to the story, they explicitly explained he went from the hotel room to practice.


there are no NBA games in vegas.

michael wasn't in vegas.

even if, for example, you thought they were on the road in LA, you now think michael jordan is flying to vegas x number of hours before practice to drag rodman out of bed instead of...just calling the hotel? or sending one of his security guys to do it?

and then FLYING BACK to wherever to go straight to practice.

it doesn't check out if you think about it, but not everyone does that


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

lol

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I just watched the documentary.

people who didn't pay attention are complaining.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

you must really be like that IRL. Sad.

The story about MJ going to Vegas to get Rodman has been floating around for years and a lot of the talking heads on ESPN today after watching the documentary were acting like they thought it actually happened.

are we talking about y'all not paying attention to the documentary

or some story someone else had heard about that you didn't know about and isn't relevant to the conversation?

feel free to not answer.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

when someone mentions that you don't do a great job putting known facts together.

I don't think it reflects poorly on your character or anything like that.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>but no one ever said michael went to vegas, and if you
>listened to the story, they explicitly explained he went from
>the hotel room to practice.

I pictured him leaving the hotel, catching a flight, and going directly to oractice... or going home and getting up for practice the next day.

I didn't think about too hard but with the people involved, it didn't sound TOO crazy. Hell, I took a red eye from Vegas after Re:Invent last year and went straight to the office.

They went into enough detail about him being in Vegas that I think it probably led alot of people on about his actual whereabouts.

unless they purposely cut it in a way to exaggerate the story. but it doesn't seem like that was the case since the director clarified the story directly following the broadcast.

this shit is still amazing though.

... made it seem that MJ went to Vegas, at least to me and others apparently.

and I'm saying that after having read this thread before viewing the episode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPgdiQxBXXM

On one hand he says the Bulls stole concepts from the Pistons, on the other hand he says great teams need great rivals to realize their maximum greatness. So which is it? Did the Bulls steal from you or adjust to beat you? Isaiah doesn't actually seem to have a firm answer. And his answer doesn't really matter anyway because the all time greatness of Michael Jordan began to feel inevitable and was ultimately proven to be so.

>On one hand he says the Bulls stole concepts from the Pistons,
>on the other hand he says great teams need great rivals to
>realize their maximum greatness. So which is it? Did the Bulls
>steal from you or adjust to beat you? Isaiah doesn't actually
>seem to have a firm answer. And his answer doesn't really
>matter anyway because the all time greatness of Michael Jordan
>began to feel inevitable and was ultimately proven to be so.

part of the Bulls ascension to greatness was not just the Triangle, they became a more physical, defensive oriented team not unlike the Pistons that had their number for so many years.

And also the differences in how Rodman acted and was handled in Chicago vs. Detroit were interesting.

And I love how Zeke broke down "culture" for Max who I hate anyway.

Rodman was a harmless and soft spoken kid when he got to the league. He fell into a band of assholes and assimilated. Zeke makes it sound like almost all of Worm's troubles are the result of him leaving a nurturing Pistons environment.That's silly, and it doesn't acknowledge that Detroit's over-aggressive style of play and attitude could have contributed to altering Rodman's reportedly "fragile" psyche.

Dennis has said when Chuck left he started spiraling. If you wanna blame the Pistons for that, then sure. But really, to answer your question, no.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Dennis Rodman didnt lock himself in his car in the Palace parking lot with a loaded shotgun because of the way his team played basketball

and for years has tried to frame it in some sort of tradition that in reality never existed. Sorry, but there is simply not an NBA rivalry before that where championship level teams DIDN'T conduct themselves with a level of sportsmanship after going to battle. Trying to frame what they did as following in the Celtics footsteps when they walked off the court just makes the situation worse......when the most famous clip of the Celtics doing that is McHale shaking hands with Zeke as he's walking off the court.

He was wrong, he should have copped to it back then.

that's not true and that was his point. The celtics didn't shake hands. Zeke had to grab Mchale, because Mchale was walking off the court. And none of the Celtics shook hands.

They showed it in the doc, where the Cs didn't want to shake hands. I think Mike is rather silly with that. Because the NBA before tern was brutal, straight up prison, and they didn't give a fock.

So Zeke was right.

Isiah has always publicly said it was him AND co-captain Bill Laimbeer. If you watch the video Zeke looked like he may have been having 2nd thoughts then but Laimbeer looked like he was "no fuck them, lets go!" and Laimbeer is still defiant about it to this day.

But its funny how the media makes a story when they want to make a story. Like it has been said Larry Bird walked off when they loss to the Pistons. Lebron walked off at least once after losing in the playoffs and barely anything was said about it.

Let's not revise RECENT history lol

And then he pulled The Decision and it just became a sub point on the reasons people disliked him

that B.L. looked at them and said let’s hand it to the Bulls the same way that the Celtics did to us. So, he told Chuck Daley to put back in. He said he didn’t necessarily want to do that, but he didn’t wanna break ranks...so, afterwards, he and Scott Hastings hung around and dapped everyone up.

>that's not true and that was his point. The celtics didn't
>shake hands. Zeke had to grab Mchale, because Mchale was
>walking off the court. And none of the Celtics shook hands.
>
>They showed it in the doc, where the Cs didn't want to shake
>hands. I think Mike is rather silly with that. Because the NBA
>before tern was brutal, straight up prison, and they didn't
>give a fock.
>
>So Zeke was right.

https://youtu.be/oRqkFQnGZaQ?t=6844

The video is right there. Fans and media were coming on the court with 3 seconds left. Celtics started walking towards the locker room. Isaiah didn't have to yank McHale back and force him to shake his hand. That's just a lie. Him touching McHale before the handshake was him initiating a hand shake...but they didn't just shake hands. McHale talked to him and encouraged him to beat the Lakers.

People can say it's silly all they want, but that lack of sportsmanship was NOT displayed in prior championship series.

Comparing McHale's interaction with Isaiah with Isaiah ducking his head as he walked past the bench is a laughable comparison. Not even close to the same thing and the Pistons were not following any tradition in doing what they did.

That "brutal" NBA that you're referring to had sportsmanship. The men that were instilling the rough play were man enough to show sportsmanship.

The Pistons were a great team, but the areas where their style of play crossed the line isn't upholding any tradition..and it got them a couple rings...

but the numbers 6 and 5 are still greater than the number 2

FOH!

that's just a small clip after thomas pulled him!...they showed the longer version in doc

Bird and Ainge walked off the court with 3 seconds left!!....there was no hand shaking or acknowledgement. WATCH BIRD AND AINGE GO STRAIGHT TO THE LOCKER ROOM


most of the starters had walked off and the bench players. \


Stop the soft crap...

>and for years has tried to frame it in some sort of tradition
>that in reality never existed. Sorry, but there is simply not
>an NBA rivalry before that where championship level teams
>DIDN'T conduct themselves with a level of sportsmanship after
>going to battle. Trying to frame what they did as following
>in the Celtics footsteps when they walked off the court just
>makes the situation worse......when the most famous clip of
>the Celtics doing that is McHale shaking hands with Zeke as
>he's walking off the court.
>
>He was wrong, he should have copped to it back then.
>
>

And a die hard Pistons fan friend of mine said that the Celtics were pretty fucking dirty too and in a way shaped who the Bad Boys became. Be that as it may, they could have done better than was done to them.

Many things can be said about MJ, but he was always a good sport, even when the shit hurt. And having seen them mature into a team that was ready to win, there should have been enough respect to salute that.

But like Horace said, they went out like STRAIGHT BITCHES.

Because I think dude is extremely under appreciated as a player, and he's done so much for players.

But


I'll be damned if he doesn't come across as weirdly jealous on this topic.


Little man syndrome? Fragile ego?


Also disappointing that he still unconditionally defends Lambier when that dude needs to get layed out to this day.


They walked off like bitches. "Celtics did it" Okay....doesn't mean the Pistons didn't.

Like MJ said, the Bulls shook their hands every year prior.

You were hurt/embarrassed that they killed you. Just cop to it.


And now he's out here rating MJ #4 and shit lol lol. Dude really can't handle the Bulls getting positive attention. In 2020.

Its straight up weird.


When you think about it, it makes complete sense that literally no one wanted him on the Dream Team. Dude clearly burns bridges then acts surprised/hurt that people didn't ride for him. Kind of a weirdo.

I think when you start to reach a certain level of stardom and you have your first controversy (since we're all flawed and human), most people do some combination of

a) retreating from the limelight and keep their stuff more private
b) working on self-improvement
c) insulating themselves from criticism

Isaiah hasn't done any of that. He's out there, still winging it like a regular guy, rather than someone who should have the means to have a team managing his image.

I don't think he's any more flawed than Jordan or some of these other stars but his fails have always been poorly managed.

Or maybe he does not care about the perception of others , which is the best action. None of it is important. It’s only basketball.

And he still gets employment opportunities from the higher ups, so that’s all that matters. I imagine that he is still respected as an all time great.

Look at all the old conversations, emotions, debates, and issues
that are popping back up? That is in part because these are things
we needed to discuss, but we never had the opportunity to fully
explore them.

Sure: some of this debate will be bitchy, petty, small.

But some of this is plainly fascinating.


This is a great documentary, and I'm grateful for it.

Also: I've never, ever seen this side of Jordan. Dude
is actually coming across genuine. Not always nice, but
genuine.





----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

We can appreciate it more right today.

Mike is one of the greatest, but this captured just how much of a asshole and selfish human being he is.

Terrible person...

you pair that with Michael's memorial speech and it's clear they loved each other and it's so sad to see

Jordan was big wildin. I just...I can't overstate how well done this series has been. I leave wanting more each time but also completely fascinated by MJ in ways I didn't know I would be fascinated

Takeaways:
- him and Pip giving Kukoc hell just b/c Krause was bigging him up
- him giving Thunder Dan hell
- Mother Jordan making him take that Nike meeting
- Mike gambling on any and EVERYTHING. S/o and RIP to John Michael Wozniak aka Bob from Marketing
- Scottie really.....man I hope he's at peace cuz he really got treated like shit
- Dennis saying he was going to Hooters >>>>>

when Scottie was going in and MJ literally grabbed him like a child and made him go the other way. That clip legit took the smile off my face.

I meant the Kukoc stuff. Krause propping him up and Scottie not even having his contract signed yet (I think that's what they said).

after Title 2 he goes overboard stressing how important the ORGANIZATION is and that ORGANIZATIONS win championships. Even says something like "the team is great BUT..."

That guy was a buffoon

I mean, Mike was joking...but he WASN'T joking. Scottie laughed awkwardly, lol. Maybe I'm doing too much because Scottie is my favorite player, ever. Felt like he probably got little brothered a lot. The Kukoc scene had me feeling bad as shit for Tony. My wife, who probably didn't know Tony Kukoc from Tony Allen, before last night was like..."Michael nem didn't have to take it out on that boy...he's a kid", lol.

there is always so much in these episodes. this is the first week where i could see people hating on jordan and really not having much to defend him on.

>Jordan was big wildin. I just...I can't overstate how well
>done this series has been. I leave wanting more each time but
>also completely fascinated by MJ in ways I didn't know I would
>be fascinated
>
>Takeaways:
>- him and Pip giving Kukoc hell just b/c Krause was bigging
>him up
loved it, felt bad for tony but its just funny. i loved tony when he did join them.

>- him giving Thunder Dan hell
>- Mother Jordan making him take that Nike meeting
nike being a small upstart is still hard to fathom.

>- Mike gambling on any and EVERYTHING. S/o and RIP to John
>Michael Wozniak aka Bob from Marketing
lol the security scene was funny, when dude did the shrug. jordan calling for security to take them out lol

>- Scottie really.....man I hope he's at peace cuz he really
>got treated like shit
>- Dennis saying he was going to Hooters >>>>>
lol

https://www.kappit.com/img/pics/73286258bffac.jpg

i damn sure would've believed he had a gambling addiction after that.

big "noooo i dont do cocaine *sniffiles*" energy

Clyde just wanted to be in the Finals...he ain't ask for all that.

- That Kobe segment is crushing. Such a poignant reminder about how public discourse often doesn't know shit about reality. All the debates "we" have about them being something he wanted no part of. Must have fucked Mike up something ridiculous to see that again. As cutthroat as he was, for him to take his only heir apparent under his wing like that, was beautiful.

- "Gimme the fortune, keep the fame." Man shit, just watching a few parts of that and imagining that everyday was suffocating. THIS, to me, is why private schools are necessary, so that the kids of celebrities can have some semblance of a normal life. We like to think we'd know how to deal with top 5 worldwide status but we don't have a fucking clue.

- Politics as usual. I can understand how his singular focus was basketball, and he didn't want to delve into politics. Activism didn't seem to be ingrained in him, so it's not exactly surprising that he wasn't comfortable with attaching himself to a candidate, even if he donates to their cause. If it had been a personal friend, he probably does get more involved (like Dave did with Ben Jealous in MD), but ultimately a reminder that even when we're impressed by it, the expectation that prominent black people demonstrate activism is unrealistic. Would have been a great time to focus on Craig Hodges, though.

- THE KNICKS. Damn those series were great. That Game 5 in 93 was a classic for so many reasons, which they expounded on in the SportsCenter that followed. Mike getting the wind knocked out of him, then making the next 7 shots, the ending with Charles Smith, but the back and forth throughout, just bananas.

- Jerry Krause. His own words. He spent so much time talking about the "organization" and mentioned the team almost like a sidenote. Like he just HAD to get that credit and diminish the most important aspect of their collective success. It's amazing that they were able to sustain greatness as long as they did with such acrimony. The Cowboys with Jimmy and Jerry is the only other comparable example I can think of.

- MJ "knowing how to win." That segment with BJ was incredible and validating. I thought it was childhood nostalgia, but with all the WGN games I was logging in (forget all the nationally covered stuff), there was a tv sitcom-like convention to Bulls games. Mike would either get folks involved early and work within the grand scheme of things, take over late if necessary, or he'd sense the need to 'score the basketball' early and often. I don't know how deeply they will go into it but his basketball IQ was second to none.

- I recently read up on the guys convicted of murdering his dad (one is appealing the sentence), and it had a lot of layers. I will be surprised if they spend a lot of time on it since the Jordan family has taken a fairly unified stance on not going very deep on the matter.

If nothing else, these last two episodes illustrate how mentally fatigued Mike was in that spotlight, and that was BEFORE his dad was murdered.

Can't believe we're more than halfway home already.

>- I recently read up on the guys convicted of murdering his
>dad (one is appealing the sentence), and it had a lot of
>layers. I will be surprised if they spend a lot of time on it
>since the Jordan family has taken a fairly unified stance on
>not going very deep on the matter.
>

http://graphics.chicagotribune.com/james-jordan-murder/index.html


>>- I recently read up on the guys convicted of murdering his
>>dad (one is appealing the sentence), and it had a lot of
>>layers. I will be surprised if they spend a lot of time on
>it
>>since the Jordan family has taken a fairly unified stance on
>>not going very deep on the matter.
>>

https://twitter.com/davidfuternick/status/1257139613115674624

The documentary is well put together from a technical point.I love the way that it was edited, and the nonlinear timeline really grabs the attention of the viewer. And the song selection for each time frame has been near perfect.


However, it's a very controlled documentary, and hasn't truly revealed anything. It's basically a Michael Jordan documentary, and isn't a Bulls documentary as the title states. It's more focused on Jordan's last dance. There are no real in depth interviews with other players regarding what they were going through. We don't go into the lives of Toni Kukoc, Kerr, Hodges, etc during that time period.

And why wasn't Jaunita Jordan interviewed? She was with him during the bulls' huge dynasty run, and was in the heart of it all. What was her perspective of everything, and what trials and tribulations did she have to go through? Carmen Electra was interviewed, but not Juanita?


Ken Burns the great documentary filmmaker stated that this isn't a real documentary, but more of a scripted depiction of Michael Jordan. Jordan got the final say on everything that is being presented, so how can it be a substantial documentary and showcase every part of that history?


“If you are there influencing the very fact of it getting made, it means that certain aspects that you don’t necessarily want in aren’t going to be in, period,” says Burns, saying he himself would “never, never, never, never” allow such a partnership on one of his films. Added the documentarian, “And that’s not the way you do good journalism … and it’s certainly not the way you do good history, my business."

Idk why people are being so thickskulled about this. Everything literally says the footage would only be used with MJ's permission.

Why aren't his kids being interviewed? Have we seen his sisters? What about his gardener? Why haven't they been interviewed? Yall are nuts lol

Not really. We just want authenticate history telling, especially when it is being promoted as such.

It's trying to hard to cover up jordan's true persona, but even the editing, as good as it is, can't cover it up fully.


Did you see how every player from a different pro team, or who came from a different college team, when they approached him just to say hello, he always brought up how he beat them?

When Magic came to the locker room just to say hello during the allstar game, he did it, and even magic was like I just came by to say what's up.

It was very telling when Ewing did it. You could tell Ewing was very bothered by it, and said " don't start that shit again."

They are trying really hard by pushing the narrative "COMPETITIVENESS", to explain why jordan is such a narcissistic self absorbed asshole.


Now just imagine the REAL GLARING footage of his persona that he didn't sign off on.


Plus his adulterous ways while being married to Juanita?

Rodman's life ,in all of its hell and glory, has been exposed and illustrated, but we get this manicured depiction of a superstar player being marketed as a raw documentary?



come on, man.

we don't need his exwife to tell us that

You just want the trash.. lol.

Has she ever spoken on their marriage? She prolly signed an extremely long contract to stfu and take half his money.

They interviewed Carmen Electra revealing everything about Rodman, which we already knew.

Even Cookie was interviewed for Magic's documentary, and they didn't cover up his gay son. That's real history covering.

However, a documentary covering one of the most iconic figures in united states history during his most prominent state as that icon, and no interview with his wife?

Negro, please

'they didn't cover up his gay son'....do you know how ridiculous you sound?

That was probably a little bit over the top, but you get my point.

All I’m saying is the same thing that Ken Burns is saying ....it’s a bullshit documentary from a historical point.

You ever wonder WHY?

Do you know what a NDA is?

in line with his career story arc, eps 5 and 6 started to expose his buletproof public person. looks like this will continue next week based on the preview.

he was infallible for the first 7 or so years of his career. why would the doc go out of its way to make up drama when there was truly very little (if any) drama during those years?

we started to see dirt yesterday and I expect that to continue. no reason to jump to conclusions yet.

True. I’ll wait...... last night episodes, I’m like ,damn this dude is an even bigger piece of shit than I thought. Some of it was cringe worthy.

The Randy Brown interaction didn’t sit well with me at all when he asked Mike for game tickets...

The way he talked to people off camera?

They say that Tiger Woods was warned by his people to stay away from Michael Jordan, and that a lot of his social issues started after befriending him.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/us-sports/tiger-woods-warned-stay-away-michael-jordan-155276

I might not make it to the next episodes...

Here you go.

Also, Ken Burns would not be able to effectively make this doc. Everyone understands his point, but he probably shouldn't be saying too much in this instance.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/last-dance-director-jason-hehir-shocked-michael-jordan-approved-episodes-7-8

Here's the director of "The Last Dance," Jason Hehir, on the "Dan Patrick Show" on Monday:

"When you see the episodes next week, you’ll be surprised. Maybe he (Jordan) skipped Episode 7, but I can’t believe that he didn’t (trailed off)...

"The Steve Kerr thing is only a story that's told, and he was eager to tell that, and Steve was, too. But this treasure trove of footage that we had from the NBA, what we tackle in Episodes 7 and 8 next week is what it was like to play with Michael, and then what it was like to play against him, in 7 and 8, respectively.

"And the with Michael stuff, man, I don’t know if you would want to practice with Michael Jordan. It would be fun to watch; I don’t know if it would be fun to interact with him during that because he is hard. He wanted to make those harder than any game could possibly be. And in the East back in the '90s, that meant making it as rough and as mentally grueling as possible.

"And there’s things in there, there’s language in there that I’m shocked ESPN let us keep in, and there’s behavior in there that I’m shocked Michael let us keep in."

So, the scene is set. Episode 7, in Hehir's words, will center on what it was like to play with Michael, Episode 8 on what it was like to face him.

politics or lack there of.

I don’t recall Magic & Bird taking any major political stances back then either.

Sure guys in the 60’s-70’s did their thing but mostly after that it was nothing prior to the modern era and guys still strategically pick their spots.

Really?

Former mayor Harvey Gantt was running for the senate seat against the incumbent Jesse Whelms, who was a known racist, and who believed in racial segregation. Michael was approached by Harvey to support his campaign, and Michael declined to provide support, stating republicans buy sneakers, too.

Stop, bro. It’s one thing to be be unaware of social and political issues, but to be cynical and disrespectful regarding issues that affect, not only the black community, but the community that you grew up in, really illustrated just how self absorbed he was ( and probably still is). Gantt was seeking to become the first black senator of North Carolina.

Y’all will make a million excuses for a dude who doesn’t give two shits about you, and would probably tell you to give him 15,000 for an autograph if you asked for one.

..or anyone else's.

He's never wavered on that stance.

Yet the his shoes continue to be the most popular shoe on the planet.

So my only question to you is: How many pairs of Jordans have you owned since '90?




*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

I don't and have never worn kiddie shoes, sir

enjoy your evening.

..lol.

Does the same go for all nike apparel?


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

Adidas , new balance guy...mostly classic adidas

Kanye's had the most popular shoe in the world for about three years

for most, Drip > Beliefs

..I don't consider athletes heroes.

Also, my point has nothing to do with popularity. It simply speaks to the hypocrisy shown towards athletes that don't feign allegiance or loyalty to the opinions of a general public that only love you when you're winning. The same public that's disillusioned enough to pretend that they really know & care about each other as perfect strangers.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

>Really?
>
>Former mayor Harvey Gantt was running for the senate seat
>against the incumbent Jesse Whelms, who was a known racist,
>and who believed in racial segregation. Michael was approached
>by Harvey to support his campaign, and Michael declined to
>provide support, stating republicans buy sneakers, too.
>
>Stop, bro. It’s one thing to be be unaware of social and
>political issues, but to be cynical and disrespectful
>regarding issues that affect, not only the black community,
>but the community that you grew up in, really illustrated
>just how self absorbed he was ( and probably still is). Gantt
>was seeking to become the first black senator of North
>Carolina.
>
>Y’all will make a million excuses for a dude who doesn’t
>give two shits about you, and would probably tell you to give
>him 15,000 for an autograph if you asked for one.

What difference would it have made??



It's not like all Black North Carolinians, Jordan included, weren't already going to vote for Gantt. You think those whiteys who loved to see him run jump and shoot gave a damn on what he THOUGHT? I mean the goddamn news referred to Gantt as "A liberal Black"

If LeBron couldn't flip Ohio for Hillary, what guarantee was there that MJ would turn NC for Gantt?

Nevermind that supporting a political candidate from one of the two organized crime families can hardly be classified as "activist." Now, using his influence to ensure more people were REGISTERED to vote? THAT'S activist shit, but never seemed to be the focus in this instance.

You need to reread the second paragraph of my post.

He was cynical and disrespectful about it, and was apathetic about the entire situation

"republicans buy sneakers, too"

That meant he didn't care about the situation, nor did he care about voting in general and how it affects communities.


There is no excuse you can make for his lack of consideration.

>You need to reread the second paragraph of my post.
>
>He was cynical and disrespectful about it, and was apathetic
>about the entire situation
>
>"republicans buy sneakers, too"

he said that on the bus to teammates, not at a press conference

>That meant he didn't care about the situation, nor did he care
>about voting in general and how it affects communities.
lack of care or lack of education on it? he was not a political strategist, he was myopic about basketball, which he ADMITTED AND EVEN SAID HE WAS PROBABLY SELFISH FOR.


>
>There is no excuse you can make for his lack of consideration.
not making one at all. asking the question what difference would it make had he publicly supported him is a legitimate one. doesn't matter how you feel about it.

made and while he would have welcomed his support, he holds no grudges.

Going into it, it was advertised as being a doc on the last year and championship of Jordan's reign with the bulls.

But it's more like a career long retrospective. And like at least three eps so far have gone back to the first trilogy of championships and the events that led to that.

On the one hand, I"m loving the content overall, cause there is just a wealth of behind the scenes stuff I never saw. On the other hand, this could have been a 4-parter if they stuck to what they just said they would.

Minor nitpick.
______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.

was in regards to the gambling issues and the media supposedly dogging Jordan out. While I suppose it's cool to get some measure of insight into what went on at the time, I personally only care about Jordan in terms of what went on strictly on the court. Perhaps this is because I am a Knicks fan and I don't idolize the dude, but I truly don't care about his personal life that deeply.


Like you said in your response, a minor nit picking moment because this documentary is superb in terms of providing a ton of old school footage.

Like 35 minutes of other material, and 10 minutes of final season footage

yeah like I get looking into the past for context, but not everything they cover is relevant to that last season. Still great to see the behind the scenes stuff that most of never have, but it' still more like a career long retrospective.
______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.

they focused a decent amount on the last season the first few episodes but it being in the middle of the season there isnt much drama. now that they are reaching the playoffs i think more focus will be placed on the last season. maybe the next two episodes wont have a strong emphasis on the last season but the final two will.

It is drawing parallels and coloring the Last Dance with context
from the past.

We meet characters in 1998, or are introduced to specific
angles in 1998. We then move into the past to color or
add context to that character/issue.

It's brilliant.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Not saying the above response was justified of course, but it's key to not lose your cool or get overly emotional over folks that are 1) complete and total strangers to you and 2) probably wouldn't address you in such manner in a face to face conversation.

.

______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.

My fault

I talk slick, it's what I do

Plus, most of y'all are cool cats who can take it,
and fire back

All good

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I am email you a hug, hit me on the inbox breh


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

And it's insanely difficult to tell a story like this for a documentary. It's not like this is Pulp Fiction and you can just write in the connections.
That's why the transitions between the stories are so key. That handoff between the timelines aren't random, there's a purpose behind it.

+ They showed Mike wearing the first Jordan's for his last game at MSG.
They go back to talking about how he got the deal with Nike

+ They talk about the Dream Team...
let's take the time to introduce Toni Kukoc.

+ They set up what seems like a meaningless moment between Mike and security betting quarters before a game to eventually talk about his gambling problem.

Everything is either building a case for something later,
or you're connecting two scenes together from different eras to tell one narrative.

.

..everything you stated was on point.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

ep 6 is literally "why does he want to retire now? well lets go back to the last time he retired and see why? damn its pretty fucking similar right???"

There's a bit too much filler for me.

*you both go home and fuck*

"But-but-but she only said 2nd base!?" *angry face*

Barkley disapproved of his GM moves, but Phil stated the same thing and he continues to be close with Phil?

Jordan and Barkley had a 30 year friendship..

>Barkley disapproved of his GM moves, but Phil stated the same
>thing and he continues to be close with Phil?
>
>Jordan and Barkley had a 30 year friendship..
>
>

Jesus

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>Barkley disapproved of his GM moves, but Phil stated the same
>thing and he continues to be close with Phil?
>
>Jordan and Barkley had a 30 year friendship..
>
>

makes me wonder, hell I'd say SUSPECT that there will be a special edition of this with more footage down the road.

and yes, they can take all of my motherfucking money cause they getting it.

We had a program called iNews that looked like an excel spreadsheet. It contained all of the stories in order of the upcoming broadcast.
There was a column for video, and if the story was ready to broadcast, the cell was yellow.
If it was purple, it meant they didn't have any video to go do, and you had to make SURE it was yellow before the show started
or else you'd have a producer and a director on your ass!

90% of the time, the editors will get the show in all yellow before the show started.
But every once in a while if you got behind, or someone called in sick, it would be a struggle.
There's no bigger pressure than trying to edit video on a time crunch when the show is running.
When I was in a crunch like that, I'd be so thankful for commercials. That was like using a time out to stop the clock.
Oh, and don't let your computer crash.

That being said, when I heard that they were still editing The Last Dance but had decided to start airing them, I could feel the clock running all over again. Ha.
I know they're not editing it minutes before it airs, plus, a project this large has an entire team of editors. Doesn't make it any less tense though...ha ha.

I didn't watch the show but the showrunner hosts a podcast I've listened to for nearly a decade at this point so I absorbed a lot of behind the scenes production anecdotes, and the one that really stuck with me that he (and Sam Esmail) made sound pretty standard procedure was that even now, when a season is 8-13 episodes rather than 20-30 episodes, you have the pilot in the can, you have 2 and 3 ready to air...and then the rest is all in late stages of composition until the very very last minute.


I always picture TV seasons as something that's been entirely finished months before the general public gets a whiff of it but it sounds like that's very much not the case almost always, even if it's just a ton of minor ADR and visual effect edits.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

Why they make Knick fans past and present relive that is so petty, and so on brand for Jordan. I applaud it, really, but hated seeing that clip all over again.

F*cking Charles Smith man.....

Knicks fans need to welcome Smith back like the Sox did Buckner (or was that only after they won a ring?)

they didnt do shit until they won that ring. Then he threw out the first pitch.

2020 athletes don’t have to deal with anything like this

Not really. It was mostly localized. It was a big thing, but a lot of things were still cloaked. And it wasn’t world wide.

I will say things were definitely more sensational, because it was a slower time, and everybody pretty much watched the same thing. So if you were a big thing you were a really big thing. ....However, It was still way lesser than the media now. The theories back then were coming from reporters, but now everyone is a reporter with Facebook and Twitter... plus you got cancel culture and hackers. Shit would have been insane in this era. Jordan and Kobe (rape allegations) would have been canceled for a lot of stuff they did.

You saw how tiger woods was canceled out in this era , and he legally got with woman...

Jordan would have been fried.

Back then sponsors didn’t drop you for allegations or domestic or social issues.....

he took himself out of the rotation




www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

do You know what being canceled means?

Tiger lost every Fucking endorsement he had except his Nike endorsement I believe ....media turned on him and even some of his closest friends turned their back on him, and when he got arrested for DUI of prescription drugs and the mug shot circulated, man no wanted to have anything to do with him.

Gillette, Gatorade, At&t dropped him, and shareholders blamed him for losing over 12 billion dollars

entire media was like his career is done. This is why his comeback is considered the greatest comeback ever with everything he went through.

So his sponsors dropped him, and shareholders lost billions because of his injuries.?



He was canceled out by his sponsors because of the prostitution scandal and his DUI...it was one of the biggest scandals of the first decade in 2000.

they were saying that b/c of the injuries. not b/c he got caught cheating.

It was all the above!

And canceled out by the media, sponsors,etc ...That his REPUTATION and IMAGE would never be able to come back from it, and that he wouldn’t be marketable again.

That mothefucker was trashed by the media.

You did exist during that period, correct?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

nobody was protesting tiger.

you aren't canceled because you just lost your job

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

i love how everything still elicits so much emotion out of mike. it really makes it feel like its happening right now.

quit on his team twice, what a pussy

----------

IG @erichrigonan

Dude you have no know idea what you are talking about ...and this is why this entire documentary is some manicured bullshit with how it is portraying Pippen and making him look like a bad guy when he was the best teammate on the team.

Pippen was possibly the best player in the league that year and should have won MVP, and if wasn’t for a bad ref call , Bulls possibly go back to the championship.
Once Tex winters and Phil put the ball in Scottie’s hand to orchestrate the triangle, bulls took off...as the documentary has shown.

That year in which Jordan was out retired, the Triangle ran at pure perfection, and that was from the mouth of Tex winters himself.

Pippen was everyone’s favorite teammate because he gel’d the team and got everyone involved...

So for you to say what you are saying and how this documentary is portraying pippen ....is just tasteless, bro.

>and
>this is why this entire documentary is some manicured bullshit
>with how it is portraying Pippen and making him look like a
>bad guy when he was the best teammate on the team.

When the documentary clearly showed this:

Once Tex winters and Phil put the ball in Scottie’s hand to
>orchestrate the triangle, bulls took off...as the documentary
>has shown.

and this

>That year in which Jordan was out retired, the Triangle ran at
>pure perfection, and that was from the mouth of Tex winters
>himself.

and Kerr clearly said the reason they were so shocked by what happened is because Scottie was the best teammate and that wasn’t his character. Cartwright cried because it hurt him...and Scottie did, too. They didn’t make him look like a bad guy. It was something that happened.

right and it is all bullshit the way they are spotlighting it.

Scott Van Pelt and Michael Wilbon talk about it...even Wilbon apologizing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hx3hxY_duI

It's all bullshit.....

to purposely try to prove a point after feeling undervalued im his head. selfish. emo. bitchassness. the most talented player next to Jordan doesnt excuse that shit


----------

IG @erichrigonan

This was beyond madness. I suppose some props should be given to Jordan for allowing that story to be included in the documentary, although I don't think Jordan himself spoke about those Bullets games on camera for the documentary.

Have to wonder how many other times Jordan did that during the course of his career.

And we all knew that. But that nigga's next level. That scene of him in the locker room with the bat and cigar? I forget who said it but someone said thank God for sports or he (MJ) could/would have been a serial killer.

>That scene
>of him in the locker room with the bat and cigar?

LaBradford Smith's head that next game when Jordan torched him. Would have been even better if Jordan was talking trash to him during the second game when all LBS was guilty of was having a hot hand for one game out of his miserable career. Wonder how he felt watching that story last night.

It appeared as if it was David Aldridge that led to that anecdote being shared since once again, I don't think it was Jordan himself that spoke about that story at all on camera for the documentary. My memory could be off in that regard though.

You speak real loosely for a dude that has never played in the nba.

Smith was one of the illest players out of Louisville. 2 time all American. He was far from having a miserable career, so torching Mike was far from his greatest accomplishment as a basketball player.

His nba career didn’t translate to what he did in college , but most college players don’t even make it to the nba, let alone have a game where he shits all over one of the greatest players in the game.


I mean Jordan was a nba champion, considered greatest of all time, and he needed to make up a story to have a great game against a rookie? You’re the greatest in the game . You’re supposed to scorch a rookie, not a rookie scorching you..... and A rookie scorched his ass..

>And we all knew that. But that nigga's next level. That scene
>of him in the locker room with the bat and cigar? I forget who
>said it but someone said thank God for sports or he (MJ)
>could/would have been a serial killer.

...all the time. Especially ones that aren't "real"

Shoot, Rudy Tomjonovich used a "look" he saw a woman give him when he was walking around in his neighborhood growing up as motivation for his entire career. He had grown up working class, and his family had just moved to a better neighborhood. He passed a woman on his block, and he believed she shot him a look implying that he didn't belong there. So, he from that point on he was determined to prove to everyone that he deserved respect on the court.

Years later, he admitted that the woman could have been looking at something else enitrely, or that he had completely misinterpreted her facial expression, or that he had just projected his own feelings onto his perceptions. But it didn't really matter, because he used it to make himself perform at the highest level possible.

Anyone else where reading this post have other examples?

to "break" from the documentary, because he sheds a tear in regards to the interviewer asking him about being perceived as an asshole bad teammate.

Like he really gives a fock. We are supposed to have sympathy for a guy who only cares about himself and mostly treated everyone around him like shit?

Also, this is the other shit the really kills me. Mike said that scottie was wrong for getting his surgery done right before the season, and sitting out games over his BUSINESS CONTRACT. He also stated that scottie was selfish for that and was thinking about the team....lol

However, when Mike broke his foot, and the doctors and organization told him not to play on it while he was still healing, or he could risk re-injuring it and losing his career. He went to UNC and played full one on one games and practices without the bulls organization knowing about it or even getting permission. Dude could have destroyed his career, as well as destroyed everything the bulls were trying to build....and when he went out gambling the night before into the early morning on the day of a big game against the knicks, I guess that wasn't selfish either.

just some hypocritical as stuff from that dude.

>to "break" from the documentary, because he sheds a tear in
>regards to the interviewer asking him about being perceived as
>an asshole bad teammate.
>
>Like he really gives a fock. We are supposed to have sympathy
>for a guy who only cares about himself and mostly treated
>everyone around him like shit?

He was talking about his whole entire mentality, the cost of what it was to win and to lead. Everyone kisses the (6) ring(s) but that shit didn't just come from being able to jump high and make shots.

>Also, this is the other shit the really kills me. Mike said
>that scottie was wrong for getting his surgery done right
>before the season, and sitting out games over his BUSINESS
>CONTRACT. He also stated that scottie was selfish for that and
>was thinking about the team....lol
this is actually a straight line for how Mike thought.

>However, when Mike broke his foot, and the doctors and
>organization told him not to play on it while he was still
>healing, or he could risk re-injuring it and losing his
>career. He went to UNC and played full one on one games and
>practices without the bulls organization knowing about it or
>even getting permission. Dude could have destroyed his career,
>as well as destroyed everything the bulls were trying to
>build....
This was done in an effort to PLAY AND WIN. He was actually risking the chance for future earnings to get back out there. Not "rational" or "smart," but singularly focused. Scottie had a right to not rush himself back out there, but in Mike's thinking, you do whatever you can to get back on the floor, WHICH HE DID.


and when he went out gambling the night before into
>the early morning on the day of a big game against the knicks,
>I guess that wasn't selfish either.
are you watching this on mute? he said it was to decompress, and he said he was back by 12:30 or 1. Hardly out all night. maybe you've been at the very top of your field and can relate, but if not, what the average person does to blow off steam is not necessarily the same thing that someone in Jordan's position does.

>
>just some hypocritical as stuff from that dude.
only for someone who does not connect dots.

always bullshit ass excuses for mike.

I'm a BULLS fan...BULLS FAN. and I saw all the bullshit, and just hate to see Scottie being seen as the dark one when mike is the true dark one. ...bottom line

- A degenerate gambler who played and hung out with drug dealers ( constantly)
- had massive gambling debts over his head
- treated his wife like crap and cheated on her constantly
- was a horrible person on the court and off the court
- gives no fuck about urban communities
- influenced tiger woods to the point of almost fucking up his career...fact

But, hey, he did all of it for winning....I had to be that way in life and on the court. FOH

you wanted to be that way because that's just how you are and were, and you used being competitive as an excuse and cover up.

>always bullshit ass excuses for mike.
>
>I'm a BULLS fan...BULLS FAN. and I saw all the bullshit, and
>just hate to see Scottie being seen as the dark one when mike
>is the true dark one. ...bottom line
I was there for all of it, and I don't view Scottie as "dark." He FUCKED UP BY NOT GOING BACK IN THE GAME. He has to own it, but he apologized and moved on. Even as Mike discussed it, he was more disappointed than "down" on him.

Regarding the injury, same stuff, he didn't appreciate it, probably because he knew he had to carry more of a load to start the season, but hell, it happened. the Bulls could have done better by him, and I think they both came off looking less than ideal, especially when you hear Krause saying how he still paid Jordan his salary after the first retirement.

> - A degenerate gambler who played and hung out with drug
>dealers ( constantly)
poor choice in comrades, he seemingly learned and made better decisions but let's not act like plenty of rich and famous people aren't connected to street dudes

> - had massive gambling debts over his head
you already said degenerate

> - treated his wife like crap and cheated on her constantly
wow, how UNIQUE for a professional athlete to do this?

> - was a horrible person on the court and off the court
reducing someone you don't know personally to absolutes

> - gives no fuck about urban communities
grand sweeping statement, also false
https://theundefeated.com/features/jordan-brand-wings-program-scholarship-full-ride-education-nike/

> - influenced tiger woods to the point of almost fucking up
>his career...fact
so a grown man who made it to the top of his sport in unprecedented fashion isn't responsible for HIS decisions?

>But, hey, he did all of it for winning....I had to be that way
>in life and on the court. FOH
>
>you wanted to be that way because that's just how you are and
>were, and you used being competitive as an excuse and cover
>up.

fact: fashion sense of steve harvey and steve urkel

fact: under a spotlight like few people in history have been. and unless you're under that light you have NO idea how you'd handle it

fact: delivered the goods. as a kid i idolized him and had a rose colored view, as i got older and got to see the well past his prime wizards years and a less than flattering point in his life. recognizing no one is perfect, i appreciated what the hell he did on that court. very few people in their 40s and beyond are surprised by more of this info. his assholishness was already known.

I appreciated how Grover spoke about his professionalism, in that he took it very seriously that people came out to see him and wanted to make sure they got their money's worth.

It was ego too, not just a winning mentality

It was the part of him that had to be the best

It wasn’t just about dragging other players along the path to winning

I mean...did he make Scott Burrell a better player?

He was an asshole, and he was allowed to get away with it.

I think he realizes that now

The lengths he would go, to put his teammates down, in order to establish his dominance, on a daily basis, against guys on his own team

...I’m calling bullshit...

That didn’t have as much to do with winning, as it did his ego

That’s what the whole gambling thing was about too, IMO

I think he’s realizing now, he didn’t have to go that far, and regrets it

I mean, the majority of that episode was about his dad, and what I’m assuming was the hardest time in his life, 93’

But he breaks down at the idea of not being considered a nice guy

Really telling IMO

easy to forget about that, being that Pippen had such a great career, and even that specific game the Bulls won. But what he did isn't something a lot of guys would do. Scotty's backing down from challenges isn't something that went completely away after the Bulls overcame the Pistons. It returned. It's a lot easier to step up to challenges when Michael Jordan is on your team.

The front office set the environment for that by presenting the perception that Scotty was expendable with the efforts to get Kukoc and pumping him up the way they did. But at the end of the day Pip failed, and makes it worse by saying he would have likely done the same all over again.

Pip failed?

How in the hell did pip fail? Are you talking about in that situation which happened 20 years ago?

This dude won 6 rings, one of the greatest defensive players ever, guarded all five positions, created the point forward position, and ran the triangle with perfection .
When Krause fired Collins, because Collins strategy was to give the ball to Jordan and everybody get out of the way, and tex winter and Phil took over, and put the ball in pips hand to run the offense ...did he fail?

This dude gave his body and soul to the bulls , but that one situation you will hold on to?

On the one hand, it wasn't right what Pippen did, especially since he was the clear leader of that team and like he said, they won by committee that first season Jordan left. In addition, even when Jordan was on those Bulls teams and Jordan ran the show, Jordan didn't always take the game winning shots in crucial games.

On the other hand, I think the fact Pippen was underpaid for all those early Bulls years coupled with the fact Kukoc was Krause's boy made it easy for Pippen to build up resentment at the moment.

Pretty wild that Pippen said if he had to do it all over again, he still would have still sat out for that possession. Can't imagine the level of coverage that would have gotten in today's 24/7 sports media cycle world, made even worse with social media being around.

that was wild. I thought I misheard him.

Sure he’d get his 20-22 ppg - but he wasn’t typically taking and making contested jumpers (which was probably all they were going to get with that amount of time) like that. The play was brilliant coaching by Phil, and a great shot by Kukoc.

The point was pippen was basically the best player in the world that season , and led the bulls in every damn defensive and offensive stat, so a play should have been made for him or considered.

You’re the best player on the team, so you’re going to want the shot.

He went about wrongly afterwards, but we are all human.

>

He wasn’t a guy you throw the ball to and say “get a bucket”.

Phil was right because it worked. Pip was wrong because it’s not the time for that shit.

it was that Kukoc made.

but the reason why pippen was pissed off, is that the play before when they were on offense, Kukoc went to the wrong spot and fucked up the play, and that's the whole reason it was tied up



www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

when he had refused to go in the game lol

>when he had refused to go in the game lol

that dunk on Ewing was even better than Jordan's. Not the full move, cause MJ took Starks and Oakley baseline but the fact that Pip went higher when Ewing jumped was cold as fuck.

his plea of "I had other things on my mind" was lame. You still won the series and championship dude, just say he played you tough. If anything it's an indictment of George Karl's stupidity, not your ability as a player.

all that bs about George Karl not speaking to him in a restaurant was meaningless.

If he needed THAT to get him motivated for for his first Finals back after 3 years something is wrong lol

>all that bs about George Karl not speaking to him in a
>restaurant was meaningless.
>
>If he needed THAT to get him motivated for for his first
>Finals back after 3 years something is wrong lol

Wasn't like they were carrying Mike to the finish line. Games 4-6 weren't great for all of them. Scottie shot shit too. Seattle was a good team, with a lot of pride, and they weren't going to roll over.

When Payton was on him, his life on the court was harder. Give the glove his respect and move on.

Especially since he figured GP out and went on to win.
______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.

a) Knicks fan here, so fuck Pippen

b) I don't care if he sat out 10 games,
had 15 migraines and delayed surgery 5 times

c) He is one of the 5 most versatile defenders to ever play,
one of the most selfless superstars ever. That 1993-1994
Pippen was truly a supremely unselfish joy. Jordan won
jack shit without Pippen for a reason.

Stop it.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I'm actually not faulting Scottie as much as I'm holding the F.O. accountable for the dynamic that was formed for Mike

They pretty much let him run the show...and rightfully so

But if you put yourself in Scottie's shoes

He sees Mike be given every privilege as the franchise player

So when he attains the mantle of franchise player...I'm ASSuming he was expecting the same considerations

I can see the thought bubble over his head on the bench

You wouldn't ask Mike to inbound the ball on a final possession...FOH!

LOL

It's also interesting that sitting out vs the NYK and the migraine game are presented as Scottie quitting on the team

But everyone takes the sympathetic interpretation for Mike

Retiring twice

That is also quitting on your team

...and not just for single plays or games...

He turned his back and walked the fuck out on his team

twice

Definitely more understanding for Scottie and his actions

Mike's win at all costs, not matter what 'mentality'...obviously did have limits and levels he wasn't going to push himself to

Kinda weird that Scottie gets fried...but everyone is so understanding IRT Mike and his retirements.

these dudes ruined my childhood and this documentary hasn't done shit to change my feelings in any way. they're all dicks.

signed,

bitter 90's knicks fan

>these dudes ruined my childhood and this documentary hasn't
>done shit to change my feelings in any way. they're all
>dicks.
>
>signed,
>
>bitter 90's knicks fan
>
>
SO FOCUSED

Fear of being physically, emotionally, and verbally abused is definitely a powerful motivator

and the dynamic they instilled made Feel the sympathetic figure

Mike's out here whooping ass on his team mates...and then Feel steps in as the saviour

Definitely some deep, fucked up psychological issues at play

Mike's family has always been presented as loving and nuturing

But this abuse is a learned behavior

The episodes about HS, college...and even the first few years in the league...he was more about leading by example, outworking everybody, etc...

Based on that observation, it looks like that 'mentality' was instilled in him by the Bad Boys

That's the example he was given of a winner

Complete asshole, win at all costs...even stepping over the line physically, mentally and emotionally

After watching, I'm wondering if he's been to counseling

The tearing up...didn't make it seem like he's reached a place of understanding

Russ got 11
Cap also got 6

So the idea that you HAVE TO do it Mike's way...or you're not a winner

...is just flat out wrong...

I think he's starting to realize that, as he's talking through it, and still trying to rationalize it

My armchair psychologist take...the Bad Boys fucked him up in more ways than one

...and he repeated that behavior on his team mates...

Really some fucked up shit

He can readily call Isiah an ASSHOLE, and doesn't see that he became the same ASSHOLE

...but with a better PR campaign...

everything aint gotta be a thinkpiece fam.

every teammate speaks admirably about the tough love mike employed and credits him for making them championship caliber allies.

we aint gotta reverse engineer takes to fit a new socially acceptable narrative.

"Definitely some deep, fucked up psychological issues at play

Mike's family has always been presented as loving and nuturing

But this abuse is a learned behavior"

than the jordan toxic masculinity posterboy takes.

i was wrong.

>everything aint gotta be a thinkpiece fam.

even the players that you are being offended for think so lol

----------

IG @erichrigonan

Steve Kerr suspended Draymond for the same behavior

Let me ask you this

MJ, Rodman and Scottie are on the top 50 list
Members of arguably the greatest team ever
Etc...

When they are being interviewed

...do they give you the feeling of reliving some of the greatest moments of their careers...

Or does it feel like you’re watching people relive traumatic experiences?

The part I’m stuck on is his repeated line...well you never won anything

Like I said, that’s not true
Russ11
Cap6
It’s not the only way to win
Magic
Timmay
You know there’s other dynasties in sports and winning cultures that don’t incorporate this type of behavior

He’s making fat and short jokes about the GM in front of the team...
Making sexist jokes to a guy in a wheelchair
Calling the 10th-11th guy on the bench a bitch and a ho from the sideline during FT practice...

Did that make Scott Burrell a better player?
Kwame Brown?
Stacey King?
Rodney McCray?

You’re not going to hear the other side...because this isn’t a documentary.

and we don't really KNOW what happened with any of these other champions you mention. Kobe was missing there...why...too MJ like?

He was upset with the way Feel was running practice

The fights were entirely about his ego and need to establish dominance

...at all costs...

It had nothing to do with making Kerr and Perdue tougher

That’s not leadership.

I get it, he was tough on his team mates

and I can see the need for it

I’m saying, he went too far and crossed the line into something else.

That “Showtime” book in particular had a lot of details. He wasn’t a warm and cuddly leader.

In the absence of me reading Showtime in order to further an exchange on OkaySports

Maybe you could enlighten me

Was Magic always an asshole too, or was it something that manifested during his NBA career

Might be a correlation here

Maybe it was necessary to be a complete asshole in order to win in the NBA during the 80s

?

To clarify, I fully understand the necessity to be competitive at this elite level of athletics

I expect other greats to be super competitive too

IMO, Mike went too far with his team mates and off the court

Is that how Magic was?

I’m going off memory because it was probably a good 5 years or so when I read the book, but I remember him being particularly hard on Vlade Divac.

The book is incredibly entertaining and well done though. You should read it. I might reread.

>In the absence of me reading Showtime in order to further an
>exchange on OkaySports
>
>Maybe you could enlighten me
>
>Was Magic always an asshole too, or was it something that
>manifested during his NBA career
>
>Might be a correlation here
>
>Maybe it was necessary to be a complete asshole in order to
>win in the NBA during the 80s
>
>?
>
>To clarify, I fully understand the necessity to be competitive
>at this elite level of athletics
>
>I expect other greats to be super competitive too
>
>IMO, Mike went too far with his team mates and off the court
>
>Is that how Magic was?

and its slanderous and ugly of you to try to pin that on mike's parents. that's an embarrassing post.

’Based on that observation, it looks like that 'mentality' was instilled in him by the Bad Boys’

There was a definite change in him...after a couple of years in the league

I clearly attributed that learned behavior to DET

Try harder.

The only reason I mentioned his parents is most people learn that behavior in the home

I clearly said... that doesn’t seem to be the case here

‘He became the same asshole Isiah is’

WTF

I don’t disagree that’s there’s other ways to lead

Read my post again

I’m taking issue with his defense of his behavior...well you never won anything

Clearly that’s false, and your cuddly comment is in agreement

There are other ways to lead and win.

Detroit series had nothing to do with the mental makeup of Michael Jordan. He was like that before the series, and it goes back to him growing up.


He father made an interesting statement when he said that when Mike was young, he would send him back in the house with his mother, because he couldn't really help in the garage like his brother. He said that he would ask for a certain tool, but Mike would bring him back the wrong tool, so his father would just send him off.....So maybe that did psychologically affect him......

Jerry krause said it best. Michael has been spoiled his entire life, and the only people he will listen to are his parents. This is why I give Jerry tons of credit for standing up to Michael Jordan's demands and requests. " If it were up to jordan, the bulls would have drafted Buzz Peterson". He would have drafted nothing but yes men.


Anyone who stands up to him or disagrees with him, he sees them as an enemy,since he can't have his way. Just go back to his Hall of Fame speech, and how he provided nothing but backhanded compliments, and didn't really thank anyone. It was the most self-absorbed speech, and is quite cringe worthy.

- He degraded and verbally disrespected a former high school teammate who was picked over him, and did it on TV.

- Dean Smith, one of the greatest coaches of all time... He gave him a backhanded compliment. He got burned up because Dean Smith stated that he didn't put freshman on the cover of SI. But he took it personal, because Dean told him no.

- During the olympics, where all the players were there to represent their country, all he could think about was his image and himself. When the olympic committee told him that all basketball players had the to wear the reebok olympic warmup on the medal podium, he didn't want to do it. He got mad and called them assholes, and then went out of his way to cover up the logo on the uniform. Charles and Scottie were the second and third biggest Nike basketball players, and they had no issues with it. It was simply a selfish michael jordan act

- When his best friend, barkley, won MVP, instead of him thanking his friend, and appreciating barkley having a great season, he said that he felt he deserved it and barkely didn't

- He can't even say anything positive about any of the players in this day and age. I give lakers fans shit about bron, because I hate the lakers, but Lebron James is no joke. And I would be a fool to say that he can't be considered as the greatest of all time.

- He has no appreciation for the league or other great players. He cant even simply talk to former players without bringing up the fact that he beat them. It's like dude timeout. This is real life. Is there anything else that you have to offer in life?

If you don't stroke his ego, or say yes to him, then you become an enemy.

- Jerry Krause told him no all the time - enemy
- Charles Barkley has never kissed up to him and speaks the truth - enemy
- Steve Kerr stood up to him - He hits him
- Everything he participates in he wants to challenge you on because he feels he is better than you, which is why he sucks competitively at everything outside of basketball.


You can cover it up by saying he is just competitive, or that he is just really driven, when it is none of those things. He is simply a self absorbed human being, who has no appreciation for anything or anyone other than himself.

And its quite sad. But people are programmed and design to worship things and other people, so they will soak this up, too.

Appreciate your reply

Apparently, his sister put out a biography that accuses the father of rape

Can’t find a reputable source and I never heard about it before

?

Also, to further reinforce the idea that this is not a documentary

Jordan’s production company, Jump 23, is among the co-producers behind the project but is omitted from the credits

^I believe this is part of Ken Burns’ criticism of this being presented as a documentary

and counters the point that all his team mates loved and appreciated being treated like shit

LOL

The biggest knock on Mike’s career is his failure as a GM...which you alluded to in his inability to assess NBA talent

So it’s a little odd that people defend his intent to break team mates in order to make them champions

...when he’s been proven to be an absolute failure at assessing championship talent..

It’s really starting to feel like an excuse for what he did to people

He repeatedly tries to defend himself against the label of a tyrant

But it fits the definition pretty well IMO.

IRT the exchange about getting a tool for his dad, I did catch that comment...and it ended with...you ain’t never gonna be nothing

I just don’t want to go there on a dead man

I have no idea if the sister’s allegation is valid

But I stand by my opinion, his behavior is symptomatic of deeper issues

I’m also starting to get bothered by people celebrating his ‘competitiveness’

It’s more like comPETTYness...and I really hope in the future someone acting this way would be given professional help

That shit’s not healthy.

this motherfucker went out of his way to say "organization" over the "team," mentioning them as a side note.

he told a 5 time championship winning coach that he was DONE, even if he went 82-0, which they had come pretty close to doing a few years back.

he dangled a top 5 player up as trade bait for several seasons.

This team had a LOT of HUGE egos. don't act like MJ's was the only one. HE didn't break up that fucking team.


>Detroit series had nothing to do with the mental makeup of
>Michael Jordan. He was like that before the series, and it
>goes back to him growing up.
>
>
>He father made an interesting statement when he said that when
>Mike was young, he would send him back in the house with his
>mother, because he couldn't really help in the garage like his
>brother. He said that he would ask for a certain tool, but
>Mike would bring him back the wrong tool, so his father would
>just send him off.....So maybe that did psychologically affect
>him......
>
>Jerry krause said it best. Michael has been spoiled his entire
>life, and the only people he will listen to are his parents.
>This is why I give Jerry tons of credit for standing up to
>Michael Jordan's demands and requests. " If it were up to
>jordan, the bulls would have drafted Buzz Peterson". He would
>have drafted nothing but yes men.
>
>
>Anyone who stands up to him or disagrees with him, he sees
>them as an enemy,since he can't have his way. Just go back to
>his Hall of Fame speech, and how he provided nothing but
>backhanded compliments, and didn't really thank anyone. It was
>the most self-absorbed speech, and is quite cringe worthy.
>
>- He degraded and verbally disrespected a former high school
>teammate who was picked over him, and did it on TV.
>
>- Dean Smith, one of the greatest coaches of all time... He
>gave him a backhanded compliment. He got burned up because
>Dean Smith stated that he didn't put freshman on the cover of
>SI. But he took it personal, because Dean told him no.
>
>- During the olympics, where all the players were there to
>represent their country, all he could think about was his
>image and himself. When the olympic committee told him that
>all basketball players had the to wear the reebok olympic
>warmup on the medal podium, he didn't want to do it. He got
>mad and called them assholes, and then went out of his way to
>cover up the logo on the uniform. Charles and Scottie were the
>second and third biggest Nike basketball players, and they had
>no issues with it. It was simply a selfish michael jordan act
>
>- When his best friend, barkley, won MVP, instead of him
>thanking his friend, and appreciating barkley having a great
>season, he said that he felt he deserved it and barkely
>didn't
>
>- He can't even say anything positive about any of the players
>in this day and age. I give lakers fans shit about bron,
>because I hate the lakers, but Lebron James is no joke. And I
>would be a fool to say that he can't be considered as the
>greatest of all time.
>
>- He has no appreciation for the league or other great
>players. He cant even simply talk to former players without
>bringing up the fact that he beat them. It's like dude
>timeout. This is real life. Is there anything else that you
>have to offer in life?
>
>If you don't stroke his ego, or say yes to him, then you
>become an enemy.
>
>- Jerry Krause told him no all the time - enemy
>- Charles Barkley has never kissed up to him and speaks the
>truth - enemy
>- Steve Kerr stood up to him - He hits him
>- Everything he participates in he wants to challenge you on
>because he feels he is better than you, which is why he sucks
>competitively at everything outside of basketball.
>
>
>You can cover it up by saying he is just competitive, or that
>he is just really driven, when it is none of those things. He
>is simply a self absorbed human being, who has no appreciation
>for anything or anyone other than himself.
>
>And its quite sad. But people are programmed and design to
>worship things and other people, so they will soak this up,
>too.

Like I said in a reply above

It's hypocritical of Mike to take issue with Scottie sitting out a game or a possession

When he quit...walked out...twice

2Xs.

Mike ain’t never quit. He retired.

Scottie threw a temper tantrum and quit in the game and then quit mid season

What the hell are you talking about he sat out mid season? He came back mid season.
He had toe surgery right before the season of 97, instead of having it over the summer, which was the right thing to do

The bulls came off of two straight championships, and had 5 in total at that point .. they had just won the championship , so dude was supposed to go straight into surgery and rehab all summer with that?? And not have time with his family after enduring a grueling season? Plus he was going into FA after the season. FOH

But Mike can gamble all night and all morning on the same day of a playoff game..but it’s cool.

Rodman can get time off to go drink and Fuck hoes ...and miss games , but that’s just Dennis Rodman being Dennis.

Stop with the double standard.

He retired in 2003.

Everybody knew he was coming back

He even said it in 93

Reinsdorf kept him on his bball contract

Going to play baseball is not retirement

He quit.

It also makes him a hypocrite to keep taking shots at load management

He couldn’t sustain those chip runs

So he took entire seasons off

Not games...years

You didn’t answer the question though

Aren’t his exits part of dismantling the roster?

>He retired in 2003.
>
>Everybody knew he was coming back
did they know when?

>He even said it in 93
he said he would never rule out the possibility of a return

>Reinsdorf kept him on his bball contract
and he explained why

>
>Going to play baseball is not retirement
RETIREMENT FROM BASKETBALL MEANS YOU DON'T PLAY BASKETBALL. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CURL UP AND DIE.

>He quit.



>It also makes him a hypocrite to keep taking shots at load
>management
>
>He couldn’t sustain those chip runs
so why didn't he come back in the playoffs in 94 then??? would have been a perfect time after all that time off...don't think that i'm TRYING to make sense, just following your busted reasoning.


Also, let me know when the load management brigade puts together 2 threepeats, since apparently "he" couldn't sustain chip runs

>So he took entire seasons off
>
>Not games...years
>
>You didn’t answer the question though
>
>Aren’t his exits part of dismantling the roster?
you gonna Cuban B EVERYTHING else going on with the team, right? He was supposed to stay and watch them become shitty after Krause let Phil go and got rid of Scottie??

YES THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING

>Like I said in a reply above
>
>It's hypocritical of Mike to take issue with Scottie sitting
>out a game or a possession
I can't do logic puzzles with you or nothing, but if you compare RETIREMENT to sitting out the last 2 seconds of a playoff game, or delaying surgery that in turn delays your return to playing action like they're the same....I can't help you.

But it's not hypocritical of Mike at all. He was doing everything he could to GET BACK on the court after his foot injury.

His philosophy is "if you're ON the team, then you need to be ON THE TEAM." If someone retires, ain't really shit you can say about that.

To his credit, he took no subtle jabs at Scottie during the Game 7 of the last playoff series they lost to the Pistons. Frustrated at the timing but he never said "he should have played anyway," or "I'd have been in there."


>When he quit...walked out...twice

>2Xs.

You must be Jerry Krause's son in law.
>

and how sports culture attempts to normalize it.

you aren't equipped to lead or have it, and you aren't coming at it honestly.

stop.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

nm

you're the most popular person on the planet and you hire hall and oates to be your security team I don't really get it.

like jordan could easily fuck all of 4 of them up by his damn self...perhaps lending further credence to Jordan's deep seated underlying behavioral disorder requiring him to exert his physical dominance over everyone around him at all times. food for thought.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

they need to do a documentary on the seriousness in which some of y'all are discussing this thing jesus christ

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

like you've been doing to everyone else up and down this thread?

but I don't really pay attention to or have much awareness of what you do outside of our direct interactions

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

used to always trip on Shaq's bodyguard Jerome who was a pretty big dude but a midget next to Shaq

i do admit Jordan's guys look like grocery store security guards, but at least they're armed and the one blonde dude just died a few months back. go easy, man. lol.

reached over and started rubbing his head and I was like man that shouldn't have happened...


> the one blonde dude
>just died a few months back. go easy, man. lol.

genuinely sorry to hear that:-(

just getting caught up on these episodes now

He is Alonzo from training day, straight up. " that's why I never shake his hands homes, he don't respect nobody."


If there is any hollywood character that describes mike's behavior or mentality, it's the Alonzo character.

respects no one, uses everyone, pops shit and talks trash to everyone, but brings in money for the higher ups so he is protected.

and the crazy thing is Alonzo was killed in the movie because he was popping off and talking shit, snapped and killed a russian while GAMBLING in Vegas. So he had to pay the russians money within a certain amount of time to make up for it, but failed to do so.......hmm, almost similar to the rumor to why Mike's father got murdered.

Thank your for your insults and verbal attacks. It's nice to know that you are civilized.

Also, you will not get a response from me ever again, and it would be best for you not to respond to my posts or threads. There will be no response.


Good Luck and stay safe.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I actually caught Collins' first game as HC, which is referenced in the doc

First game of the 86' season

Observations

You need glasses to watch standard def from the 80s
Mad blurry, and as the names evoke memory recall, I'm trying to see the faces for recognition, but can only make out most players in close ups

The hair...what the fuck were people thinking with these haircuts
Hubie Brown vs Doug Collins in a perm battle for the ages
Colter with the dripping Jheri Curl
Paxson's porno stache...almost as entertaining as the game itself

I guess Oak is the only guy in the league weight training
He's being described as a SF in the broadcast...but is strong enough to play D vs Pat and Cartwright
He's like a brick wall
Most everyone else has the muscle definition of a 12Y.O.
Legit didn't know CLE drafted him, SMH, what a shit franchise

The short shorts
Actually like the NYK shorts with the logo and player number on the front
Wouldn't be a bad move to bring that design back...but I'm pretty sure my boxers would hang out the bottom of these shorts

Jordan 2s are underrated

Joey Crawford with hair
More travels called in this game than the entire 2018 season

No 3s or dunks
Jordan catches the ball at the 3 point line...and you can see the hesitation
He looks down at the line, steps back...and misses what looked like a very uncomfortable shot...only 3 I saw in the whole game
He also caught an oop toward the end of the game...and I don't remember another dunk
Felt like some unwritten rules bullshit...3s are bad shots and dunks are disrespectful

Alot of YT dudes

Mike was getting every call
He wasn't having a great game to start
But his FTs pushed his numbers in the first half
Quietly putting up 30 through 3
Trent Tucker and Gerald Wilkins were actually doing a decent job on defense
For whatever reason, Hubie Brown decides to put Rory Sparrow on Mike late in the 4th
...and he just flat out took over the game with 3 mins left...
The Jumpman logo is part of americana now, but his mid-post game is unprecedented for a guard IMO
Nobody was able to stop his mid-range turn around jumper...really an overlooked part of his game

...at the risk of saying something positive about Krause...
Holy shit that roster was HOT GARBAGE!!!
I think Paxson was the only hold over
What an incredible job Krause did constructing a championship roster in just a few seasons
Literally moved every player, except Mike and Paxson

Granpa Waiters...https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co_LebKUsAANYT3.jpg
LOL

Greg Gumble and his co-broadcaster...wearing full on tuxedos...to call a fucking basketball game...that wasn't even on national TV
Hilarious

Fans were heckling Mike with...MICHAEL, MICHAEL...chants when he's at the FT line
They learned that lesson quick
42pts was the record in the garden by a visiting player
...was...

Oh shit, is that Rockit they're playing on the PA system

Best thing to happen to Kenny SkyWalker was winning the dunk contest, because that dude was terrible

We should start a replay thread...seeing how there's no sports for awhile

Very entertaining and interesting to watch...given the current context of the Last Dance

Every other Jordan story they say "yeah but Buzz Peterson taught him how to play golf" as if that guy could carry Jordan's shoelaces.

He was Jordan's roommate at North Carolina, and he is jordan's assistant general manager. He is basically his yes man, and he is white.

When Jordan was with the bulls he wanted Krause to put Buzz Peterson on the team. Lol. That should tell you all you need to now about jordan's ability to select talent, and what type of friends he wants. He wanted bulls management to select players that he liked, same way with how he selects his personnel as the owner of the hornets.


This is what barkley was speaking on when he said that jordan is surrounded around people who will kiss his ass, and not tell him what he needs to hear.......so you will hear a lot of Buzz Peterson when it comes to stories regarding jordan, positive or negative.

I have to say....the saying "don't ever meet your heroes" has been playing in my head as I've watched this series. He's like a black Christian Laettner in terms of his basketball philosophy and bullying. Geez dude. I also wondered what it must be like to be married to him? What a horse's behind.

It was stated the interviews were conducted over the last 2 years...

Couldn't just be mere coincidence this project starts filming immediately after Krause passed away?

The actual footage feels alot like one of those SI promos

Congratulations Bulls fans, your team just won the championship. Act now and we'll include this behind the scenes DVD of their 2nd 3peat with your subscription...

It's entertaining, but I definitely am looking at it differently as an adult

+1, the internet stays undefeated

https://i.redd.it/jek30oxx13z41.jpg

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

release the footage after Lebron won in Cleveland and announced himself as the GOAT.

we can go through the deflections and spin in the series if you want

...so far, most people aren't calling it out...

Bron/GOAT after CLE chip...was 2016.

I really don't expect MJ to say he waited until Krause passed

...some of this stuff you have to put together yourself...

was it known he had food poisoning before this doc?

Rumor had it that it was all bullshit, just another created theatric by Jordan to get at
his opponents. Tim Grover said that it was actually food poisoning a few years back , and then rumors started circling that it was a hangover.

Mike is so full of shit, who knows.

if it was food poisoning then they prolly woulda said that shit from the beginning instead of keeping up this elaborate charade for seemingly no reason.

they panicked in the face of possible media scrutiny and just threw the flu out there lol.

having the runs or throwing up can just happen with certain foods for no reason. It happens. Both stories are believable its just about which one you would rather prefer being the truth *shrugs*

----------

IG @erichrigonan

It matters that he is full of shit ...and there are so many tales behind it now

Totally different than what was reported back then...there was no mention of food poisoning whatsoever...however in 2017 the narrative changed all of a sudden.

And we don’t know if he really felt like shit.

The one player who did , Scottie ,with a fucked up back, could barely walk , jump or anything in the final game.

----------

IG @erichrigonan

Breaking up the bulls was the right thing to do.

Scottie back was done! Had he not come back and toughed it out , and his back was fucked up, bulls would have lost game 6.

Now Scottie did go to Houston and Portland and still played skillfully, but the Chicago Bulls Scottie was done and never played at that level again., ...and Jordan was declining as well. Other teams were primed to just murder them.

It’s fucked up that Kukoc did not get the spotlight in the doc for game 7 against Indiana , because he single handily won that game and they didn’t even feature him.

>It’s fucked up that Kukoc did not get the spotlight in the
>doc for game 7 against Indiana , because he single handily won
>that game and they didn’t even feature him.

Felt like he was basically ignored for the entire series. Really disappointing because IMO he was way more instrumental than they let on.

Jordan had too much control over this doc series, obviously. The tilt/skew was blatant for those of us who lived through it. Kind of tainted it to a degree, IMO. Like I still enjoyed it and was glad to be watching it, but some of the luster was lost knowing that it was 100% MJ-influenced with really no other more objective voice to speak to everything that happened.

This negro spat on the pizza! He was pissed that his teammates had ordered dinner
before him, so he ordered pizza , and spat on the pizza so no one else could have any. That is why he was the only one with food poisoning.


I am 100 percent a bulls fan, and mike was a joy to watch.

But as a human being, a person in society off the court, fock that dude.

He would often spit in his food if he didn’t want you to have any ...

https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=29187530

Okay you are MJ......why are you dialing around for takeout like a SnapOn tool salesman on a road trip?

This guy could have his manager or staff call every chef in Salt Lake City and wake them up out of bed to make whatever he wanted!

But I learned a lot. I laughed a lot. The meme material is off the charts. Dennis Rodman has lived a LIFE. Scott Burrell still smilin. They don't call Phil Jackson the Zen Master for no reason. I like Mike a bit more. Understand Scottie a bit more.

Bravo to the staff and crew who were apparently only done editing episode 3 when the series first started airing

later in the series?

>Bravo to the staff and crew who were apparently only done
>editing episode 3 when the series first started airing

that thing where they show the year and then transition/hop to another year on the visible timeline...it feels like they only started doing that the last few episodes. early on i think they just jump/cut between timelines with no notice and it confused a lot of folks. so maybe they heard the feedback and edited those transitions in?

maybe im tripping.

.

hopefully they drop a box set with like 2 hrs of bonus content. i will absolutely cop it

.

even a serial killer needs a getaway driver sometimes I guess

But by all accounts, Mike never abused the privilege of being Mike. Busted his ass in practice, busted other guys' asses in practice, was an on-court professional through and through.

Only other elite guy who comes to mind is Duncan in this respect - both Mike and Tim didn't owe anything to their coaches and were already on all time great trajectories, but they bought in nonetheless. Even though Kobe won big with Phil, there was always noise about how difficult Kobe's petulance was to deal with. And then of course Lebron never met a coach he couldn't kill.

I mean has he ever had a coach that deserved credit for HIS success? If he had a Pop of Phil then maybe, but nah lol

Dude, Lebron gave Spo an angsty shoulder bump on live TV. That’s nuclear level hoe shit.

>Only other elite guy who comes to mind is Duncan in this
>respect - both Mike and Tim didn't owe anything to their
>coaches and were already on all time great trajectories, but
>they bought in nonetheless. Even though Kobe won big with
>Phil, there was always noise about how difficult Kobe's
>petulance was to deal with. And then of course Lebron never
>met a coach he couldn't kill.

Pop and D-Rob were both instrumental in his early development as a player and a leader

of things to light that I wasn't aware of back when they unfolded.

But honestly, I think it actually has shown me that Lebron is the actual GOAT, or at least that it is closer than people allow themselves to see.

Seeing how MJ had his older brother and Father to help develop his winning/killer instinct; seeing how he had DEAN SMITH for 3 years, and Dean even encouraged him to leave after his Junior year (because he probably saw the draft order and knew MJ had a chance of landing with a good front office, probably even thinking he'd end up in Portland). Even for MJ to have Gus and his security crew to lean on, that is something largely absent in Lebron's formative years from what he's said.

When MJ was calling his two parent home and asking for stamps, Lebron had to be the man. The #1 thing people give Lebron grief over is being underdeveloped in basketball maturity, but never for basketball IQ. Lebron has hella overachieved. This doc made me realize that MJ also needed his father, Phil, Krause/Reinsdorf, Rodman, Pippen, Paxson/Kerr, and father time to help perfectly align MJ's story arch and take full advantage of his greatness to make him 6-0 in the Finals. It is an incredible achievement, but it almost would have been better to have just assumed that MJ just won all of those games by himself all along. Lebron had to basically be MJ/Pippen/Magic for most of his career, and with no supporting cast, coach, or front office until he left to go to Miami. And even THEN he made it to the Finals in year 4.

If this same style doc was made about Lebron (and it will be) I think it will show the ineptitude of Cleveland's front office and their lack of desire to be a championship team, Lebron taking matters into his own hands and going to "college" in Miami to learn the type of things MJ did in Chapel Hill, and then taking it back to Cleveland and winning there before the full form Juggernaut Warriors formed. Lebron has had his shortcomings, but so has Jordan, but Lebron hasn't had nearly as much to work with. Just goes to show that you can't do all of this by yourself. Jordan should have stayed one more year in Chicago and win without Phil and Pippen.

>of things to light that I wasn't aware of back when they
>unfolded.
>
>But honestly, I think it actually has shown me that Lebron is
>the actual GOAT, or at least that it is closer than people
>allow themselves to see.
>
>Seeing how MJ had his older brother and Father to help develop
>his winning/killer instinct; seeing how he had DEAN SMITH for
>3 years, and Dean even encouraged him to leave after his
>Junior year (because he probably saw the draft order and knew
>MJ had a chance of landing with a good front office, probably
>even thinking he'd end up in Portland).

Even for MJ to have
>Gus and his security crew to lean on, that is something
>largely absent in Lebron's formative years from what he's
>said.
But isn't that a decision that Lebron would have to make, who to surround himself with?

>
>When MJ was calling his two parent home and asking for stamps,
>Lebron had to be the man. The #1 thing people give Lebron
>grief over is being underdeveloped in basketball maturity, but
>never for basketball IQ. Lebron has hella overachieved. This
>doc made me realize that MJ also needed his father, Phil,
>Krause/Reinsdorf, Rodman, Pippen, Paxson/Kerr, and father time
>to help perfectly align MJ's story arch and take full
>advantage of his greatness to make him 6-0 in the Finals.
Not sure if you saw the Sportscenter after, but SVP's interviewed Taurasi, and she summed it up in one comment "he had to give up his life." No one does anything all by themselves, but he had to be the singular force to make so much of it happen, because he was obsessively driven to do so.

It
>is an incredible achievement, but it almost would have been
>better to have just assumed that MJ just won all of those
>games by himself all along.

who would have ever thought he won ANYTHING by himself?? it was clear that by himself, all he was going to win was scoring titles.

Lebron had to basically be
>MJ/Pippen/Magic for most of his career, and with no supporting
>cast, coach, or front office until he left to go to Miami. And
>even THEN he made it to the Finals in year 4.



>If this same style doc was made about Lebron (and it will be)
>I think it will show the ineptitude of Cleveland's front
>office and their lack of desire to be a championship team,
>Lebron taking matters into his own hands and going to
>"college" in Miami to learn the type of things MJ did in
>Chapel Hill, and then taking it back to Cleveland and winning
>there before the full form Juggernaut Warriors formed. Lebron
>has had his shortcomings, but so has Jordan, but Lebron hasn't
>had nearly as much to work with. Just goes to show that you
>can't do all of this by yourself. Jordan should have stayed
>one more year in Chicago and win without Phil and Pippen.

only surface level watchers thought people were doing it "by themselves." Mike took the spotlight and the hot lamp and the scoring burden, but Pip controlled the offense and led the defense.

Two great pieces of trivia last night:
- The Bulls defeated 7 60 win teams in the playoffs.
- The Bulls defeated 20 Hall of Famers in the postseason.


That is some powerful shit.

>>of things to light that I wasn't aware of back when they
>>unfolded.
>>
>>But honestly, I think it actually has shown me that Lebron
>is
>>the actual GOAT, or at least that it is closer than people
>>allow themselves to see.
>>
>>Seeing how MJ had his older brother and Father to help
>develop
>>his winning/killer instinct; seeing how he had DEAN SMITH
>for
>>3 years, and Dean even encouraged him to leave after his
>>Junior year (because he probably saw the draft order and
>knew
>>MJ had a chance of landing with a good front office,
>probably
>>even thinking he'd end up in Portland).
>
>Even for MJ to have
>>Gus and his security crew to lean on, that is something
>>largely absent in Lebron's formative years from what he's
>>said.
>But isn't that a decision that Lebron would have to make, who
>to surround himself with?

In my opinion, not exactly. I think someone from that background has even more scrutiny for people who try to enter their life after they achieve some celebrity. Having family that has had your back your entire life prepares you initially, and once you figure it out I think you are then able to bring people in. But Lebron came straight from high school so even the college social dynamics weren't something he got to experience. I think the closest thing he found to that was in the NBA with other players who didn't need his fame or money, and where a friendship with Wade turns into something that eventually matures the way it did.

>
>>
>>When MJ was calling his two parent home and asking for
>stamps,
>>Lebron had to be the man. The #1 thing people give Lebron
>>grief over is being underdeveloped in basketball maturity,
>but
>>never for basketball IQ. Lebron has hella overachieved. This
>>doc made me realize that MJ also needed his father, Phil,
>>Krause/Reinsdorf, Rodman, Pippen, Paxson/Kerr, and father
>time
>>to help perfectly align MJ's story arch and take full
>>advantage of his greatness to make him 6-0 in the Finals.
>Not sure if you saw the Sportscenter after, but SVP's
>interviewed Taurasi, and she summed it up in one comment "he
>had to give up his life." No one does anything all by
>themselves, but he had to be the singular force to make so
>much of it happen, because he was obsessively driven to do
>so.
>
>It
>>is an incredible achievement, but it almost would have been
>>better to have just assumed that MJ just won all of those
>>games by himself all along.
>
>who would have ever thought he won ANYTHING by himself?? it
>was clear that by himself, all he was going to win was scoring
>titles.

Most people in the aftermath of the championships anoint HIM as the singular GOAT. They say he was the best 1 on 1 player ever, and I would agree with that. But in a 5 on 5 game he even had to be coached into a different way to play the game to make the TEAM better. And he did buy in, and he even became a coach on the court and intense motivator, but the ultimate success required a few things to go his way to help him achieve what he did, and his adversity is in the Eastern Playoffs, so they never marred his finals record. A lot of that goes into the narrative but I think there is more nuance for Lebron's career achievements, especially with a Skip Bayless saying "JORDAN WOULD HAVE NEVER PASSED IN THAT MOMENT" - except he did, successfully, to Kukoc, Paxson, Kerr, etc. And he was coached to do so by Phil, and the team got better.

>Lebron had to basically be
>>MJ/Pippen/Magic for most of his career, and with no
>supporting
>>cast, coach, or front office until he left to go to Miami.
>And
>>even THEN he made it to the Finals in year 4.
>
>
>
>>If this same style doc was made about Lebron (and it will
>be)
>>I think it will show the ineptitude of Cleveland's front
>>office and their lack of desire to be a championship team,
>>Lebron taking matters into his own hands and going to
>>"college" in Miami to learn the type of things MJ did in
>>Chapel Hill, and then taking it back to Cleveland and
>winning
>>there before the full form Juggernaut Warriors formed.
>Lebron
>>has had his shortcomings, but so has Jordan, but Lebron
>hasn't
>>had nearly as much to work with. Just goes to show that you
>>can't do all of this by yourself. Jordan should have stayed
>>one more year in Chicago and win without Phil and Pippen.
>
>only surface level watchers thought people were doing it "by
>themselves." Mike took the spotlight and the hot lamp and the
>scoring burden, but Pip controlled the offense and led the
>defense.

There are a lot of surface level watchers and media that only analyze on that level that feed the narrative that Jordan was the thing that made the team successful, and he alone. Even though when he retired they won 55 games. I think part of the reason he came back is because HAD they gone on to win it would have shown that that team was stacked with Phil and the guys, and they could have found a way to win and HE wouldn't be the difference maker.

>Two great pieces of trivia last night:
>- The Bulls defeated 7 60 win teams in the playoffs.
>- The Bulls defeated 20 Hall of Famers in the postseason.
>
>
>That is some powerful shit.

Very impressive, and I don't deny his and their greatness, especially in that era. How many 70 win teams did he beat? Lol

Lebron got HOF bodies too, and I think Lebron's post playing career is going to be more Jerry West than Cheese Eyes too.

like Lebron? It's not a plea cop, it just (to me) shows that Jordan wasn't entirely self made. Hell, Kobe got traded to a great organization by a great GM. Even with that (and the bringing in of Shaq and Phil) he wanted to prove he could do it himself. Before bringing Phil back and getting help Kobe even threatened to LEAVE to go somewhere that would help him. He had his daddy too.

When MJ was calling mommy for stamps for post cards, Lebron at that age was taking his mama OFF stamps, and having to be man of the house. And Lebron had a crazy childhood as far as him and his mom and moving around and staying at friend's houses, etc.

Where is his HOF coaching? Or HOF GM? Or legendary championship focused owner? All three may end up being Lebron when this is all over haha

>like Lebron? It's not a plea cop, it just (to me) shows that
>Jordan wasn't entirely self made. Hell, Kobe got traded to a
>great organization by a great GM. Even with that (and the
>bringing in of Shaq and Phil) he wanted to prove he could do
>it himself. Before bringing Phil back and getting help Kobe
>even threatened to LEAVE to go somewhere that would help him.
>He had his daddy too.
>
>When MJ was calling mommy for stamps for post cards, Lebron at
>that age was taking his mama OFF stamps, and having to be man
>of the house. And Lebron had a crazy childhood as far as him
>and his mom and moving around and staying at friend's houses,
>etc.
>
>Where is his HOF coaching? Or HOF GM? Or legendary
>championship focused owner? All three may end up being Lebron
>when this is all over haha

The Bulls were trash before Jordan got there were trash after he left. Yes Jordan had a great foundation and took advantage of it but lets not act like poor lil Lebron is out there all by himself.

Lebron's high school coach Dru Joyce was a huge influence in his early life. Maverick Carter, Randy Mims and Rich Paul helped keep him on track too.

Lebron was considered a liability on defense early in his NBA career until Mike Brown got him to take that side of the ball seriously.

Lebron didn't have HOF coaches but he had some damn good ones then he went to Miami with a young coach that was trained from day 1 by a HOF coach and still had his hands all over the organization.

>>like Lebron? It's not a plea cop, it just (to me) shows
>that
>>Jordan wasn't entirely self made. Hell, Kobe got traded to a
>>great organization by a great GM. Even with that (and the
>>bringing in of Shaq and Phil) he wanted to prove he could do
>>it himself. Before bringing Phil back and getting help Kobe
>>even threatened to LEAVE to go somewhere that would help
>him.
>>He had his daddy too.
>>
>>When MJ was calling mommy for stamps for post cards, Lebron
>at
>>that age was taking his mama OFF stamps, and having to be
>man
>>of the house. And Lebron had a crazy childhood as far as him
>>and his mom and moving around and staying at friend's
>houses,
>>etc.
>>
>>Where is his HOF coaching? Or HOF GM? Or legendary
>>championship focused owner? All three may end up being
>Lebron
>>when this is all over haha
>
>The Bulls were trash before Jordan got there were trash after
>he left. Yes Jordan had a great foundation and took advantage
>of it but lets not act like poor lil Lebron is out there all
>by himself.
>
>Lebron's high school coach Dru Joyce was a huge influence in
>his early life. Maverick Carter, Randy Mims and Rich Paul
>helped keep him on track too.
>
>Lebron was considered a liability on defense early in his NBA
>career until Mike Brown got him to take that side of the ball
>seriously.
>
>Lebron didn't have HOF coaches but he had some damn good ones
>then he went to Miami with a young coach that was trained from
>day 1 by a HOF coach and still had his hands all over the
>organization.
>

Naw, it's not the same imo. Lebron's 2007 is soooooooo underappreciated. Imagine taking your team to the Finals in your 4th year and then your franchise wastes your next 4 years surrounding you with a Pippen or a Rodman. Hell those GMs and Owners have seen a MJ in existence, and have a blueprint, and they basically REFUSE to let you be great. I think looking at that situation vs Miami where we see Miami to a blockbuster (unnecessary, imho) trade to give Wade Shaq to win their first title, how could Lebron not leave? And Spo is easily the best coach Lebron has had, but he was a rookie head coach in the shadow of Pat Riley at that point. Lebron has done a lot of winning regardless of his coach. Lebron may even have wanted Riley, but can't be mad at Lebron for sonning Spo in the beginning when he was in his heel phase.

Mike never had a reason to leave Chicago, but he left. Twice.

was a victim of his own success early on in Cleveland. His teams got too good too fast and didn't have a lot of his lottery picks after him while he was there.

front office OR coach, at any time during his career.

Jordan's a perfect storm of a LOT of factors, all falling just right.

Or coach, for that matter ? He had Pat effing Riley running basketball ops for him, and Spo more than held his own, clearly.

Not to mention, ya know, LeBron picked his own all-star team to play with essentially. And *still* only went 2 for 4.


>front office OR coach, at any time during his career.
>
>Jordan's a perfect storm of a LOT of factors, all falling just
>right.

This argument could be spun the other way, too tho. That Phil and Krause, et al, became who they were because *they* were lucky to have landed Jordan. Sure, they picked him, but even they didn't know he'd be what he became. He torched all expectations, however high they already were.

that was my bad. The point of Miami was that he saw Wade's situation there and left to get that experience. He then brought it back to Cleveland to not only win a ring but get CLEVELAND to 4 straight Finals appearances.

And to the Phil point the same can be said for a Kobe that he had legendary front office and coaching as well to get him to his rings and things.

They couldn't draft for shit outside of Wade
The GOAT players had HOF front offices.
Riley for all his accolades, is more of a legendary coach than a legendary GM.
There's no way you can put any FO OR Coach that Bron has had in the same category of the lakers, celtics, spurs, or bulls.

I already didn't really believe the initial "flu-like symptoms" story to begin with but I was willing to let it rock. Now after all this time you trying to tell me that it was something possibly worse than the flu? Get out of here.

On top of that, the way they told the story this doesn't make any sense at all. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't find Michael Jordan something to eat. And that when they did order a pizza and five dude showed up that they still somehow handed that pizza to Mike and let him eat the entire thing. If I'm in Michael's camp in no way does he touch that pizza.

>I already didn't really believe the initial "flu-like
>symptoms" story to begin with but I was willing to let it
>rock. Now after all this time you trying to tell me that it
>was something possibly worse than the flu? Get out of here.
>
>On top of that, the way they told the story this doesn't make
>any sense at all. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't
>find Michael Jordan something to eat. And that when they did
>order a pizza and five dude showed up that they still somehow
>handed that pizza to Mike and let him eat the entire thing. If
>I'm in Michael's camp in no way does he touch that pizza.

cell phones were a status symbol back then, not ubiquitous like today. we're talking Utah, Mormon land, not Vegas, LA, NYC, or Chicago.

1. it's 1998. there's no grubhub, ubereats, etc.
2. it's Utah.
3. not only is it Utah, but for some reason the Bulls weren't staying IN Salt Lake City, they were staying a little bit outside of the city, so even fewer options.
4. EVERYONE ate without Mike cuz Mike was caught up doing something. (this is me guessing here) Then they were out drinking and it got late. you know how you always wanna eat something when you get home after drinking. (back to the facts) Mike wants to order pizza at 2am because he needs to eat. Not only does he want to order pizza, he's pissed everyone ate without him so he tells everyone that he's getting pizza and NO ONE else is getting pizza.
5. they order pizza and if anyone is a sports guy it's probably pizza guys so they figure out this pizza is going to the Bulls hotel lets food poison this shit and while we're at it we'll ALL go to the hotel and meet a Bulls player or two (and maybe they even somehow knew it was going to Mike - that's me guessing)
6. when the pizza comes, to prove his point that NO ONE else is getting any, Mike takes the pizza and SPITS on it, then proceeds to eat the whole pizza himself. edit: apparently, Mike used to spit on food all the time if he didn't want no one else to eat it.

and thus, the flu game is now the food poison game. i believe it.

the night before a finals game?

dude played in the league 12 or whatever years before that and never showed up to a game looking and acting all "hungover" or whatever. this a guy that played and lived in a great drinking city and travelled weekly to other cities a lot more interesting to get faded in then fucking Utah. And the NIGHT BEFORE A FINALS GAME? This competitive maniac got THAT lit up before a FINALS game in UTAH? C'mon.

Have any of you tried to drink in Utah before? It's not exactly easy. You just can't walking to the local corner store and buy a case. Only specific state regulated stores sell booze. And then maybe an odd gas station here and there. And bars aren't all that prevalent (dude wouldn't be spotted at a bar the night before a finals game anyway).

Given his extremely lame/boring location and job responsibilities the next day, this "hungover" myth seems highly unlikely.

playing cards with his guys in his suite and probably had a couple drinks and then ordered food at some point. but apparently he did that EVERY NIGHT. dude clearly knew how to handle his booze. thinking that he chose to get fucked up to the point of an epic hangover the night before a finals game in his utah hotel room with a couple guys he hangs with literally every day of his life is just not believable.

It's impossible to get trashed? You're speaking as regular a citizen, not a million/billion dollar athlete.

You don't know if he had liquor transported with him or delivered before hand. We're talking Michael Jordan, who wants what he wants when he wants it.

This is the same man who gambled and drank all night IN NJC the day before a big playoff game against the New York Knicks. He blew curfew and everything.

Absolutely no effort on the producer’s part to establish facts about what happened...other than taking MJ’s word for it

Yes, it’s 1998

It’s also a national hotel chain

You think they don’t have surveillance cameras?

We’re suppose to believe, 4-5 random pizza delivery guys...waltz into a hotel

Housing an NBA finals team

Serve the biggest star on the planet, poisoned food...whether intentional or not

...and the NBA doesn’t try to track them down...?

These 4-5 guys never mention the story...to anyone...ever...?

Then WTF was the point of the extra 4 dudes delivering the pizza

In 98’, that’s a yuge flex...I delivered pizza to MJ!

come the fuck on with this bullshit already!

Same with the Atlantic City story

The report was he was spotted in the casino at 130-2AM

We’re suppose to take MJ’s word for it that he was back in nyc, cozy in bed by midnight at the latest

Absolutely no effort by the producer to verify the facts

He could have followed up with the initial writer’s of the stories that conflict with MJ’s convenient 2020 versions

There’s so many instances where the producer just let MJ steer the narrative, independent of any unbiased factual information

Very entertaining tv series...miles away from a documentary

At this point the "flu" story was accepted by most so why not just keep up that charade if he was, in fact, covering for what was actually a hangover ?

The stans just pretend they do.

An oral history of the 1998-99 Chicago Bulls

https://hoopshype.com/2020/05/18/nba-the-last-dance-chicago-bulls-1998-1999-michael-jordan-phil-jackson-scottie-pippen-tim-floyd-jerry-krause-toni-kukoc-new-oral-history-documentary/

Great read.
Lots of insight on Krause and the Bulls after that '98 season.
But this right here?

Corey Benjamin: “I had Arn Tellem as an agent and Arn represented a lot of star players. The Bulls were trying to sign free agents. I hosted Tracy McGrady, Tim Thomas and Jermaine O’Neal when we brought them in. I was there personally for those because we were all represented by the same agent (Arn). I remember Jerry Krause told me, ‘If you can get them to sign, I’ll renew your contract.’ I don’t remember Tim Duncan coming in, but I know we wanted Duncan. But we weren’t offering them the money that other teams were offering. I remember Tracy and Jermaine telling me, ‘They’re offering me peanuts.’ They weren’t trying to max these guys out; they were trying to give these guys smaller contracts.”

Kent McDill: “That sounds right. The Bulls organization – whether it be Krause or Reinsdorf – thought that you would take a pay cut in order to be a member of the Chicago Bulls, that being associated with a franchise this successful is worth more than the money you can make elsewhere. Nobody, nobody, was buying that argument.”

Jew Mad at the two Jerrys?


: )


Seriously, Jerry's a baseball guy. He will pay baseball players, just look at the money he just recently spent, and the money he has spent in the past.

That's who he is. That one white sox World Series means way more to him than those six bulls titles.....straight up. He does not believe in paying top dollars for basketball players.

The Bulls are a team constantly tries build through the draft.
Only problem? They have ONE player development coach.
They have the smallest scouting team in the league.

I don't fully buy that he won't spend money on players cause he has,
but you can't build through the draft and not spend money to develop them.
You can't try to win with youth and just HOPE they get better.

I’m telling you the Bulls are his investment tank.

The Sox team is his baby.

I agree with you on everything, especially player development. We had Spencer Dimwiddie on our Development team. They thought nothing of him.

Also, Jerry likes to keeps things in house, no matter the race. Even in baseball, Kenny Williams was his GM.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Anyone heard from Scottie

Like I said, watching this tv series, as a grown man

MJ has some severe mental issues

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch

Horace Grant says Michael Jordan lied in 'Last Dance,' calls him 'snitch'

Former Chicago Bulls forward Horace Grant has fired back at claims Michael Jordan made about him during "The Last Dance" documentary series on ESPN.

In a radio interview with Kap and Co. on ESPN 1000 in Chicago on Tuesday, Grant said it "is a downright, outright, completely lie" that he leaked much of the information in Sam Smith's famous "The Jordan Rules" book, as Jordan alleged during the documentary.

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"Lie, lie, lie. ... If MJ had a grudge with me, let's settle this like men," Grant said during the interview. "Let's talk about it. Or we can settle it another way. But yet and still, he goes out and puts this lie out that I was the source behind . Sam and I have always been great friends. We're still great friends. But the sanctity of that locker room, I would never put anything personal out there. The mere fact that Sam Smith was an investigative reporter. That he had to have two sources, two, to write a book, I guess. Why would MJ just point me out?

"It's only a grudge, man. I'm telling you, it was only a grudge. And I think he proved that during this so-called documentary. When if you say something about him, he's going to cut you off, he's going to try to destroy your character."

EDITOR'S PICKS

The untold story of what fuels Michael Jordan's legendary fire

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The last night, the last season, the last shot: Stars react to 'The Last Dance' finale
Grant, who helped Jordan and the Bulls win three NBA championships from 1991 to '93, noted that some of Jordan's closest relationships have deteriorated over the years because of critical comments made about him.

"Charles Barkley, they've been friends for over 20, 30 years," Grant said. "And he said something about Michael's management with the Charlotte Bobcats or the Charlotte Hornets, and then they haven't spoken since then. And my point is, he said that I was the snitch, but yet and still after 35 years he brings up his rookie year going into one of his teammates' rooms and seeing coke, and weed and women. My point is: Why the hell did he want to bring that up? What's that got to do with anything? I mean, if you want to call somebody a snitch, that's a damn snitch right there."

Like other former teammates, Grant was unhappy with the portrayal of various players and situations throughout the documentary.

play
1:01
MJ blames Horace Grant for information leakMichael Jordan places blame on Horace Grant for leaking team information to the media.
"I would say entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it -- I don't know if I can say it on air, but B.S. in terms of the realness of it," Grant said. "It wasn't real -- because a lot of things said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary."

One of the storylines throughout the documentary centered on Jordan's bullying of his teammates. Grant said Jordan's behavior sometimes crossed the line.

"He felt that he could dominate me, but that was sadly mistaken," Grant said. "Because whenever he went at me, I went at him right back. But in terms of Will Perdue, Steve Kerr and the young man, Scott Burrell, that was heartbreaking . To see a guy, a leader, to go at those guys like that. I understand in terms of practicing, you have a push and shove here and there, but outright punching and things of that nature. And calling them the B's and the H's; that wasn't called for."

In a separate interview earlier this month on KNBR in San Francisco, Smith relayed a story about Jordan telling flight attendants not to serve Grant food on the plane after a bad game. Grant said Tuesday that the story is true, but also said he always went right back at Jordan after the criticism.

"Anybody knows me, as a rookie, if anybody comes up and tries to snatch my food away, I'm going to do my best to beat their ass," Grant said. "And believe me, back then, I could have took MJ in a heartbeat. Yes, it's true that he told the flight attendant, 'Well, don't give him anything because he played like crap.' And I went right back at him. I said some choice words that I won't repeat here. But I said some choice words and stood up. 'If you want it, you come and get it.' And of course, he didn't move. He was just barking. But that was the story. But anybody knows me, where I come from and what I stand for, come on, man. There's nobody in this earth would ever come and try to take food off my plate and not get their rear ends beaten."

Grant added this in a separate Zoom call he did with Betonline.AG on Monday in which former Bulls Ron Harper, Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges also participated.

"Let me clear something up about this food thing, that he tried to take my food," Grant said. "I would have beat his ass, guys ... you come back and try to take my food? I would have whipped his ass. wouldn't be no Air Jordans right now. It wouldn't be no six championships, I guarantee you that."

Grant said on Kap and Co. that the last time he spoke with Jordan was about three years ago in a series of text messages about golf. Grant said he thinks they would be respectful toward each other if they saw each other, but he isn't concerned about whether the relationship has run its course.

"The crazy thing, for one of my charities he sent me an autographed pair of shoes," Grant said. "I don't understand it. If he had some difference with me, he could have text me, he could have called me, the whole nine yards. But if I see him today, we would hopefully pay our respects to each other because we went through three championships together. But if not, believe me, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it."

Grant also defended former teammate Scottie Pippen, who has not spoken publicly since the documentary began to air last month. As ESPN's Jackie MacMullan wrote earlier this month, Pippen has been stung by his portrayal in the documentary.

"I have never seen a quote unquote No. 2 guy, as decorated as Scottie Pippen, portrayed so badly," Grant said when asked whether he thinks Pippen was portrayed fairly in the documentary, which detailed his decision not to play the final seconds of a 1994 playoff game.

"In terms of the migraine, in terms of the 1. seconds, selfish. I have never seen this in all of my life. ... Pip was out there in Game 6 , could barely walk, getting knocked down on his back. Tried to do whatever he could to help that team. My point is, why was that 1. seconds in the documentary, so-called documentary, about Pip?


"MJ wasn't even on the team. Why was that in there? We handled that that year really well as a team. Pip knows that he was wrong for doing it. ... Bill Cartwright stood up and said what he had to say, and then we handled it. It was over. It was over. We go on to take the Knicks to seven games. It was over. Why bring that up? That's my question to everybody out there who's listening."

The interview concluded with Grant being asked why he repeatedly referred to "The Last Dance" as a "so-called documentary." Some have pointed to the fact that two of Jordan's closest confidantes, Estee Portnoy and Curtis Polk, were executive producers on the docuseries as an indication that Jordan had final say and creative control over the project. Director Jason Hehir has pushed back against that criticism, but Grant didn't hesitate to discuss what he believes to be a biased point of view in favor of Jordan.

"When that so-called documentary is about one person, basically, and he has the last word on what's going to be put out there ... it's not a documentary," Grant said. "It's his narrative of what happens in the last, quote-unquote, dance. That's not a documentary, because a whole bunch of things was cut out, edited out. So that's why I call it a so-called documentary."

I respect his gangster too.

It’s clear Mike put him in a bad light because Mike wasn’t able to punk him.

longer support michael Jordan, because of his inhumane ways and degrading treatment of others, and it gets deleted.


Also I have lost respect for Adam Silver for putting it together because it was one sided and was made to highlight mostly Mike, while giving other people a bad tag.

There are quite a few people and bulls players that feel the documentary was dishonest and not a real documentary.

Horace Grant is going to be on fox sports, and is going to talk about Mike’s ways and behavior, and the many times he had to personally confront Michael Jordan. He was also interviewed about it for the documentary, but of course Mike wouldn’t let it be shown.

and he won’t shut up about MJ and now thinks he is overhyped as a player.

I can understand not liking MJ the person but I’m not sure it really matters that people no longer “support” MJ the player. He’s retired and his legacy is set in stone.

Always trips me out when people find out their hero’s might could be assholes IRL.

when it comes to Mike.

There is nothing funny about it when he has destroyed people’s lives, and has lied about his interactions with people. You’re dealing with a man’s name, his reputation , the perception from family and friends in regards to what is being told.

Nothing funny about that .

that's just my opinion though.

Almost every last one of his teammates have come out and blasted the documentary regarding the authenticity of the documentary and how players were depicted.

I don’t think you understand what’s going on here.

Have you noticed that Scottie has not publicly stated anything regarding the doc. That is how bad it is.

Like, did any of this come as a surprise? If we're all being honest, it's actually kind of charming that he's an asshole, people laugh about it.

All of a sudden everyone's a journalist now?

Jordan admits he's an asshole: he admits he doesn't care about politics, he admits he's a dickhead teammate, he admits he's a chronic gambler, he admits he influenced freezing out Isaiah from the Dream Team, they show how brutal he was to Krause, his denial of opponents like Gary Payton and John Stockton is crazy disrespectful...and it's all there on view.

It's all there. He's a sociopath and owns it. What more depths did people want this thing to go to?

Honestly, I didn't know it was to this extent. We knew he was anal, and self absorbed, but I didn't know he was INHUMANE. His actions towards people were just down right vicious.

Telling an employee of an airline company to not feed someone because they had a bad game is way beyond just being an asshole.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AeYHRY6Q5qg

This series is like a Rorshack test

He deployed the Trump playbook of deflection and spin on alladeez topics...and accepted no fault...for anything...EVAH

>Jordan admits he's an asshole
^^^missed it, let me know where this nugget is in the series
> he admits he doesn't care about
>politics,
Nope, tried to spin that with the...but I donated money to his campaign plea cop
The Gant thing really burned me up the most...let me know if you want to discuss further

>he admits he's a dickhead teammate,
Again, let me know where this nugget is
His plea cop is...I made guys winners
Never accepted any fault

>he admits he's a
>chronic gambler,
Again, he emphatically repeatedly denies having a gambling problem
One of the funnier comments was...if I had a gambling problem my wife would leave me...that didn’t age well
Even DA was copping pleas for the gambling...$10K to MJ is like $10 to you
That’s like saying Pablo Escobar didn’t have a cocaine problem

>he admits he influenced freezing out Isaiah
>from the Dream Team,
Absolutely did not
He put that on Thorne
They both hid behind the spin...no player’s name was mentioned

> they show how brutal he was to Krause,
Now you’re getting it...they show it...but that’s far from admitting and accepting

>his denial of opponents like Gary Payton and John Stockton is
>crazy disrespectful...and it's all there on view.
Exactly, which he still did in the present day interviews
Why? The competition is OVAH

>It's all there. He's a sociopath and owns it. What more depths
>did people want this thing to go to?
You should look up the definition of sociopath, because it conflicts with your claims
The man has no conscience.

Jordan was a cash cow for the NBA, NBC, Nike, sports journalism as a profession, TV Advertising, and the shoe industry over-all.

THOUSANDS of people were eating well off the myth of Jordan.
NO WAY IN HELL were you gonna hear ANYTHING negative about dude back then. His bad games were spun real-time, as they were happening, lol.

It's going to be hella interesting to see the fallout out from his 10 part commercial, in the era of social media.
Jorn couldn't be Jorn in the era when a player can just tweet out their thoughts directly, or when the 24/7 newscycle MUST have content.

The little bit of push back thus far from HoGrant and Hodges is more outright criticism in the press than Jordan got in the 90s.

It's legit embarrassing watching the old guard sports journalists try to spin the criticism of Jordan that's coming out, too. Hopefully we'll keep hearing from other voices

i respect Horace for even bothering w/ this because he isnt going to gain the upper hand here.

he could very well be telling the truth but it wont matter because he isnt the one w/ the pen. MJ is. so the history will be as MJ wants it

edit: and actually he isnt even right really

scottie was done unfair by the documentary? how so? they told the story. it isnt on MJ to cover up the bad moments for Scottie. those are all part of the story. hell Scottie himself said he'd make the same decision to sit out that play where Kukoc got the shot

the drug story? how is that snitching? did MJ lie? did he name names? no. he just spoke on the team (and really the league in general) culture when he got there. again, that is all part of the story

Horace basically tight that he aint spoken in the same breath as MJ and Pip. that Rodman is far more of a fan favorite and icon than he was. and it sounds like him and MJ just flat out didnt fuck with each other. Horace need to let that go.

If you were on that team with rookie Jordan, and folks in your family was watching that documentary, what do you say to them when they ask questions?

Why tell that story, other than to make yourself as MJ look better?

MJ is well known to be a HennyGoblin...you think there ain't stories about him to be told?

That's just shitty, shitty behavior.

I take Grant at his word, and don't play psychotherapist of anybody who critiques jorn. Maybe he just don't like the spin in the doc..like hodges don't, and apparently pippen dont.

Especially when we know that MJ got final approval over everything in it?
Plus, I think he took more offense at being called a snitch in the doc than any jealousy narrative that ESPN gonna vomit out

And hell yeah Pippen got shitted on in the doc. Being old enough to watch those games as an adult, that doc was full of MJ Tall Tales.

okay, so maybe Horace is telling the truth that he isn't the snitch.

but the truth has multiple sides.

it's MJ's truth that Horace was snitching. and even if Horace takes it to his grave that he wasn't, he probably ain't gonna change Mike's mind.

so okay Horace, say it wasn't you. that's fine. that don't change anything.

and I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVED Horace Grant so this ain't no Horace hate.

and while we're pontificating on all these, right or wrong, Mike has more insight on this than anyone so just because you doubt the man doesn't mean HE'S not right. i wasn't there, y'all wasn't there. periodt.

Anything other than slurping MJ is being too invested, lol
Meanwhile, you have to defend the perspective of the billionaire sports mogul who just had a 10 part puff piece on him from the critique of a guy who played with him.

>but the truth has multiple sides.

No it doesn’t
The truth is the truth
Just because you believe some bullshit...doesn’t change the fact that it is indeed bullshit

Know what, you get a black trump card too

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AeYHRY6Q5qg

Do better.

shouldn't even be commenting on the situation.

1. The issue with how Scottie was depicted: Michael Jordan wasn't even on the team regarding Scottie Pippen's 1.6 second sit out. That was the year Jordan went to go play baseball, and Scottie was the leader of the team, and possibly the best player in the world at the time. It also had nothing to do with the last dance, as far as covering the last three championships. It appears that Jordan is either jealous or bothered by the fact that Scottie had the Bulls playing at a high level that season, a level that Jordan was unable to acquire without Scottie Pippen. Remember, Pippen was without Jordan and Rodman, and if it weren't for bad officiating, the Bulls, possibly, could have went on to win their 4th straight championship.


So why is Jordan talking about it, and he wasn't even there? And he took that outstanding season by Pippen just to focus on that one downfall. He just comes off as despising the fact that Pippen had the bulls playing at a high level without him, and he went out of his way to paint Pippen as a quitter.


Now, regarding his commentary about the veterans from the early bulls team using narcotics and having a room full of prostitutes, was another action by Jordan to degrade his teammates, while illustrating himself to be a saint.....This is the same guy who hung around and played golf with some of the biggest gangsters and drug dealers in Chicago. He routinely played golf with Flukey Stokes ( big time gangster and drug dealer), and pranced around with prostitutes. So you throw your teammates under the bus, but at the same time you were part of that same circle and culture. He made it appear that he was this innocent kid, and that he was all alone and had to protect himself from the immoral ways of veteran players.

Jordan's nickname back in the day was cash teller, because hustlers and pimps made so much money from gambling against him.

I guess you value meaningless trophies and jordan sneakers more than you value how a human being is treated.

However, just like with R Kelly, Bill Cosby and Tiger Woods ( who jordan influenced), it will catch up with him...It always does.

>shouldn't even be commenting on the situation.
>
>1. The issue with how Scottie was depicted: Michael Jordan
>wasn't even on the team regarding Scottie Pippen's 1.6 second
>sit out. That was the year Jordan went to go play baseball,
>and Scottie was the leader of the team, and possibly the best
>player in the world at the time. It also had nothing to do
>with the last dance, as far as covering the last three
>championships. It appears that Jordan is either jealous or
>bothered by the fact that Scottie had the Bulls playing at a
>high level that season, a level that Jordan was unable to
>acquire without Scottie Pippen. Remember, Pippen was without
>Jordan and Rodman, and if it weren't for bad officiating, the
>Bulls, possibly, could have went on to win their 4th straight
>championship.

the story is a gradual merging of two timelines, from the early 80s, up to 98. that story HAD to be told. just because MJ had to approve the content didn't mean he was doing the story board with the production crew. he had minimal comments about it.



>So why is Jordan talking about it, and he wasn't even there?
>And he took that outstanding season by Pippen just to focus on
>that one downfall. He just comes off as despising the fact
>that Pippen had the bulls playing at a high level without him,
>and he went out of his way to paint Pippen as a quitter.
this is YOUR perception of it, driven by your emotions. why no mention of him watching game 7 in the baseball locker room by himself?



>Now, regarding his commentary about the veterans from the
>early bulls team using narcotics and having a room full of
>prostitutes, was another action by Jordan to degrade his
>teammates, while illustrating himself to be a saint.....
again, this is YOUR takeaway. the DIRECTOR brought it up and he confirmed it. he also said there were several different sets of activities going on so who knows what there was.
he wasn't moralizing, he simply said he didn't want to get caught up in that stuff, and instead devoted his attention to making himself the best player he could be. somewhat poignant in that likely the best rival he would have had died a year later after ODing.


This
>is the same guy who hung around and played golf with some of
>the biggest gangsters and drug dealers in Chicago. He
>routinely played golf with Flukey Stokes ( big time gangster
>and drug dealer), and pranced around with prostitutes. So you
>throw your teammates under the bus, but at the same time you
>were part of that same circle and culture. He made it appear
>that he was this innocent kid, and that he was all alone and
>had to protect himself from the immoral ways of veteran
>players.
he was a country boy in a big city. no matter what puss was getting thrown at him in NC, it wasn't CLOSE to what NBA life was like.

>Jordan's nickname back in the day was cash teller, because
>hustlers and pimps made so much money from gambling against
>him.
>
>I guess you value meaningless trophies and jordan sneakers
>more than you value how a human being is treated.
>
>However, just like with R Kelly, Bill Cosby and Tiger Woods (
>who jordan influenced), it will catch up with him...It always
>does.

gregg knaffel, angry guy who came after the man

>the drug story? how is that snitching? did MJ lie? did he name
>names? no. he just spoke on the team (and really the league in
>general) culture when he got there. again, that is all part of
>the story

It's called dry snitching and that is what he did.

It's clear from the various replays and close ups that Russell was totally off balance. And MJ's hand ain't "push" shit.

GOAT crossover for the GOAT.

Jordan is NOT the GOAT. The biggest knock on Lebron are Finals record/Rings, passing in big moments, and leaving Cleveland. The first 2 are kinda weak because a lot contributed to Mike's 6-0 vs Lebron's 3-6, BUT the last one always irked me. MJ never had a reason to leave the Bulls, with the front office making moves to surround his greatness with talent........and yet he did leave. Twice.

First retirement I think he legit was bored with basketball, and maybe even wanted a real challenge in another sport to where if he could have become good/great in baseball he really would have been a phenom. But the real reason he came back to the Bulls is because when he left them they collectively exhaled.....and they lost the first year without him, but I think they could have figured it out. HE thinks they could have figured it out, especially without his cap hit. Pippen would have ended up adding more championships, and maybe even losing a Finals or two, but Jordan's doc makes it seem like the Bulls were just falling apart and "gee shucks"d himself off of the couch to come save them (and lose to the Magic, but still). He paints himself as their savior. But he was saving his legacy.

He even says so be cause his original motivation was "Magic and Bird never 3-peated" - he was willing to end it there. But he came back because Phil and Scottie may have gotten their proper due had they continued winning without Jordan. And my main evidence for that is NOTHING was STOPPING HIM from coming back after 1998. The Last Dance was about PHIL'S last year with the Bulls. JORDAN decided to hitch his wagon to Phil, but why? If you are the loan GOAT why not stay with your rebuilding squad and coach and go win again? He said he wanted 7, but he could have stayed and competed for 7. Why not stay? Because it would be a challenge? You switched a whole sport for a "challenge" but can't try to take over your sport again without the tools you had before? Kobe at least eventually won without Shaq, but Phil was still the common denominator.

Can you imagine Jordan staying with the Bulls and eventually meeting against Kobe/Shaq/Phil in the FINALS? OMG. That would almost be a Cavs/Warriors dynamic, but Jordan didn't want that smoke. I guess we'll never know.

He signed off on everything we saw - and the narrative was tilted subjectively in his favor at every turn. You've got Pip & Horace unhappy with their portrayals - and rightfully so. This doc seemed to have the byproduct of attempting to diminish the contributions of Grant and especially Pippen, who was portrayed as a cry-baby and even a bad teammate (if you didn't watch him play and only watched this doc, you'd leave with a negative view of him) - but Pippen by all accounts is an integral reason why Jordan was able to have such meteoric success.

LeBron is sort of the inverse of Jordan. Jordan largely had a pristine public image ("Be Like Mike") as a role model (even though he ultimately rejected that responsibility). But Jordan in private/behind the scenes was actually a very combative, bullying type of personality who denigrated teammates. Conversely, LeBron has in many ways been portrayed publicly as a villain (or cry-baby) - but in actuality is as strong of a role-model as the NBA could ever ask for; regarded as one of the most generous athletes of our time (he builds schools, gives back to his community in abundance, scandal-free, exemplary father/husband etc..) - and has been praised because of his emphasis on being a great teammate and elevating guys around him.

>Can you imagine Jordan staying with the Bulls and eventually
>meeting against Kobe/Shaq/Phil in the FINALS? OMG. That would
>almost be a Cavs/Warriors dynamic, but Jordan didn't want that
>smoke. I guess we'll never know.

I think Phil had it right. It was time for that party to end (and it was one of the greatest if not *the* greatest parties in modern nba history). That late-stage Bulls team against the rising kobe/shaq lakers would've been ugly. I also think the '94/'95 Rockets squad would've been a problem a high hurdle as well. Jordan was able to evade both of those teams - which were the most dominant teams outside of the Bulls of that decade.

Conversely, LeBron had to face all the greatest squads in his era - some ATG greats. Champion Celtics. KD/Russ/Harden/Ibaka OKC. ATG Spurs squads. ATG Warrior squads.

I think one of the biggest myths is that the 90's were more competitive/tougher than the modern era. Only in basketball (and boxing incidentally) do we somehow think the modern athletes are worse than stars of yesteryear.


-->

>He signed off on everything we saw - and the narrative was
>tilted subjectively in his favor at every turn. You've got
>Pip & Horace unhappy with their portrayals - and rightfully
>so. This doc seemed to have the byproduct of attempting to
>diminish the contributions of Grant and especially Pippen, who
>was portrayed as a cry-baby and even a bad teammate (if you
>didn't watch him play and only watched this doc, you'd leave
>with a negative view of him) - but Pippen by all accounts is
>an integral reason why Jordan was able to have such meteoric
>success.
Jordan started off saying "when you say MJ you have to say Scottie Pippen. I'm not sure how people forget that so clearly. Perhaps it depends on how much of a Bulls fan they were. This was more of a review with some notes in the margins. Much of this came as little surprise to me.

>LeBron is sort of the inverse of Jordan. Jordan largely had a
>pristine public image ("Be Like Mike") as a role model (even
>though he ultimately rejected that responsibility). But Jordan
>in private/behind the scenes was actually a very combative,
>bullying type of personality who denigrated teammates.
>Conversely, LeBron has in many ways been portrayed publicly as
>a villain (or cry-baby) - but in actuality is as strong of a
>role-model as the NBA could ever ask for; regarded as one of
>the most generous athletes of our time (he builds schools,
>gives back to his community in abundance, scandal-free,
>exemplary father/husband etc..) - and has been praised because
>of his emphasis on being a great teammate and elevating guys
>around him.
Lebron has MATURED. that's expected over time. He did some trifling ass shit and was known for trifling ass shit, but he matured and as a result his career has benefited from it. But let's not make it sound like the shit was completely manufactured and not part of his own doing. Also, I NEVER EVER EVER go to the cross on any professional athlete's (or person for that matter) fidelity. You never fucking know (I heard rumors about Bron stepping out) so I don't even attempt to make that point.

>>Can you imagine Jordan staying with the Bulls and eventually
>>meeting against Kobe/Shaq/Phil in the FINALS? OMG. That
>would
>>almost be a Cavs/Warriors dynamic, but Jordan didn't want
>that
>>smoke. I guess we'll never know.
the dude would be 37. the Blazers WITH Pip should have beaten the Lakers. I think the Blazers with MJ would have. Even tho the Wizards tenure was collectively trash, with a team full of talent he's able to hit his spots and make major contributions when it counts, especially since he was younger then. Most don't remember, but he came into the Wizards out of shape. He broke his ribs summer scrimmaging against Ron Ron and rushed back onto the court.

>I think Phil had it right. It was time for that party to end
>(and it was one of the greatest if not *the* greatest parties
>in modern nba history). That late-stage Bulls team against
>the rising kobe/shaq lakers would've been ugly. I also think
>the '94/'95 Rockets squad would've been a problem a high
>hurdle as well. Jordan was able to evade both of those teams
>- which were the most dominant teams outside of the Bulls of
>that decade.
>
>Conversely, LeBron had to face all the greatest squads in his
>era - some ATG greats. Champion Celtics. KD/Russ/Harden/Ibaka
>OKC. ATG Spurs squads. ATG Warrior squads.

Celtics were cool but they only won in 2008. the MAVERICKS were not. That's who he epically choked against with HOF talent by his side. The Thunder were NOT THERE yet and you know it. Had those three stayed together.....shit man, they running the West and whole NBA. Can't argue with the $$$ they got but seriously. That home grown talent assemblage is better than what GS put together.


>I think one of the biggest myths is that the 90's were more
>competitive/tougher than the modern era. Only in basketball
>(and boxing incidentally) do we somehow think the modern
>athletes are worse than stars of yesteryear.
the style of play was definitely more physical and would have impacted many players. there are some players that would have made it happen in any era, but that's 15-20%

and played with the Wizards at that age and was still good but obviously not GOAT level at that point.

>Can you imagine Jordan staying with the Bulls and eventually
>meeting against Kobe/Shaq/Phil in the FINALS? OMG. That would
>almost be a Cavs/Warriors dynamic, but Jordan didn't want that
>smoke. I guess we'll never know.

the Wizards run though. You're saying Jordan was done after that last shot over Russell? He looked good after 98 from what could tell. If was the GOAT he should stayed to go for 7 and beat Phil lead Lakers team like Lebron did against GSW.

That whole documentary is 100 percent bullshit.

Craig Fire, the guy who made the Pizza for Jordan, said the entire story is bullshit!

Jordan ordered the pizza from Pizza Hut, and the Craig specifically made the pizza for Jordan so that it wouldn’t be tampered with. Also, when he delivered the Pizza it was just him and one other person. There weren’t five odd looking guys who delivered the pizza !

Craig stated that Jordan’s floor was full of Cigar smoke, and when he got to jordan’s Room, Jordan didn’t have a shirt on, and that he was puffing on a cigar.

There was no flu game and there was no food poisoning. Just another made up story and staged act by Jordan, similar to the lie he told about Labradford Smith.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/05/20/sport/michael-jordan-pizza-craig-fite-flu-game-last-dance-horace-grant-spt-intl/index.html

And y’all still going to support that nigga.

>And y’all still going to support that nigga.

here's the only important thing you typed...and, YEP! I am.

Jordan could shit in your mouth and you wouldn't wash your mouth for weeks.

Continue to follow as a blind man.

you'll sleep with it like a blankey.

i'm sorry you're so hurt by Jordan and this doc.

i'm just not invested. i know Jordan is a win at all cost asshole. we all tell ourselves what we need to to get by - Jordan is no different.

i just don't care. i'm here for the entertainment, not to settle disputes about the historical accuracy of a FUCKING SPORTS DOCUMENTARY.

be well, allStah.

>
>I JUST DON'T CARE. i'm here for the entertainment, not to
>settle disputes about the HISTORICAL ACCURACY of a FUCKING
>SPORTS DOCUMENTARY.
>

Yeah, because it's not YOU or YOUR character that is being televised.

>Craig stated that Jordan’s floor was full of Cigar smoke,
>and when he got to jordan’s Room, Jordan didn’t have a
>shirt on, and that he was puffing on a cigar.

2. WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING WHO FUCKING CARES THIS IS COMPLETELY COMPLETELY COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

I feel dumb for even responding to this.

this man seemed very easy to track down and refute the claim

Again, the producer let MJ steer the narrative

That’s not a documentary.

Really wish they would have stuck to a narrative like Detail

Best parts of the series, IMO, were MJ talking about Russell being on his toes and easy to fake...and Rodzilla describing how he anticipates rebounds

THEY chose to put all this off the court stuff in the series

Without verifying, or allowing others to tell their side

It’s a shame that we’re not talking about actual basketball

But that was the choice THEY made

You’re anger is misdirected.

Horace is on the doc saying he wasn't the snitch.

Scottie is on there saying he'd sit out again.

What "side" of the story is missing? and whose story?

jesus.

Think Slim Bouler and Esquinas might think he has a gambling problem?

Do you really believe he didn’t know he was gambling with organized crime members?

You really want to do this?

He makes claims in the series...that are easy to counter

The producer chose not to.

Why you mad

he's a billionaire.

whatever his losses are, he's not going broke from them and he wasn't then.

like, y'all just putting extras on shit.

like oh, this isn't even a documentary because we didn't get every anecdote that ever existed. c'mon.

IT'S MICHAEL JORDAN'S FUCKING FOOTAGE. WHAT DID Y'ALL EXPECT.

for fucks sake.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y3X274lz3wY

So mad

that's the whole point of my post. i know that's too complex of a concept for you though.

i DO care that idiots like you are so butthurt about this doc. stop that. it's unbecoming.

It's not a documentary

Calm down Karen.

did it document some shit that actually happened?

okay then, Karen.

just because every fun factoid wasn't vetted by the FBI doesn't make it NOT a documentary.

jesus.

Some context that was left out of the series

...which would have been included in a documentary...

Pete Rose was banned from baseball, for life, because of his gambling in 91’

That is why it was a big deal in 92’

You do realize 30 years ago, gambling was illegal...pretty much everywhere outside of AC and Vegas...right...?

Again, you’re angry at the wrong people

They chose to put his gambling problem, from 92, in a series about the 97-98’ season

It wasn’t covered factually=/=documentary (and you know that)

With no attempt to verify reports that conflict with MJ’s personal account that he was in bed in NYC before midnight

Didn’t know organized crime members were part of his foursomes

That’s not a documentary.

Esquinas’ book came out the following year, with even more damning evidence of a gambling addiction

The facts are there...you’re doing a bad job of not caring.

clearly you do. that's fine.

i'm FINE with Mike dismissing or spinning the story and concerns about his gambling not because i'm a blind Mike Stan, but because I don't care because he was rich AF and could cover it AND where Baseball is such and old boys club with stupid ass old rules so they were concerned with Pete Rose throwing games as much as he could, * I * know Mike is an alpha predator killer motherfucker who would win at all costs so he ain't gonna throw a game for a few bucks.

again, this is MIKE'S FOOTAGE...that he PAID someone to gather.

OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO GUIDE THE NARRATIVE.

documentaries are not just a set of facts laid out in a timeline. even though they document historical events, they are still films. there is still narrative. there is still an agenda, a story, that that the documentary film makers going in to the project with. WATCH documentary film makers talk about their work. it almost always goes like this "well, i expected to tell story ABC (their agenda) with this film but halfway through i realize it was story XYZ (what they actually made)" that I was actually making.

>
>documentaries are not just a set of facts laid out in a
>timeline. even though they document historical events, they
>are still films. there is still narrative. there is still an
>agenda, a story, that that the documentary film makers going
>in to the project with. WATCH documentary film makers talk
>about their work. it almost always goes like this "well, i
>expected to tell story ABC (their agenda) with this film but
>halfway through i realize it was story XYZ (what they actually
>made)" that I was actually making.
>
>
>
>


This is 100 percent wrong, and its sad that you don't know what a documentary film is and what it is supposed to be.

A documentary is an actuality film, it is NON-FICTIONAL coverage of history, education, information, etc. That cannot and should not be adulterated. And you skip over the fact that people who are in the documentary were lied to and lied on, but, you don't care about that. You simply want entertainment regardless of it being true or not.


Do you understand how unintelligent your take is? As African Americans, there have been misinformation,incorrect accounts, and untruths given about our history. So getting factual information should be very imperative to you, and that should not be overshadowed by the glorification of someone's image.


We have a president who degrades his peers and opposition, makes up things, denies wrong doings, and consistently misinforms the public, while vehemently praising and celebrating himself.

Do you see the similarities?

Now I don't know what your take is on trump, but if you are totally against those types of actions, like most people are, how can you support similar actions and characteristics from number 23?

i'm talking about what they are in reality.

and don't fucking lecture me on that shit. i'm a documentary STAN.

jesus.

i like you dude cuz you are fun when you talk about soccer but you are fucking miserable when you talk about anything else.

yes, when it comes to the subjugation of african americans in this country? please get all the facts out. i'm literally in GD RIGHT TODAY talking about how disenfranchising black people out of home/land ownership was one of the worst fuck overs this country has ever perpetrated. i try to spread the facts as much as i can and get dumb ass white people to listen as much as i can.

when it comes to whether the facts of Mike's gambling issues were nailed down to a "T?" I DON'T FUCKING CARE. and if they didn't? it's not RUINING the sanctity of documentary filmmaking.

for fucks sake.

Yes. I'm talking about the dictionary definition, because that is the definition, and that is how documentary filmmaking works.

Ken Burns, the greatest sports documentary filmmaker, he does not work any other way. Everything must be factual, which is why he stated that the last dance is not a truthful documentary...


And you continue to skip over the fact that the people in the documentary were LIED to in regards to what the documentary was going to be about and on how their commentary was going to be used. Jordan and the filmmakers intentionally created something that was opposite to what they reported to the people who are in it.

Do you not understand the injustice of that, when you are dealing with the legacy of people, and in how someone's legacy is told?

So you're okay with being entertained and getting non factual information at the expense of innocent people's reputation and name?

Just a simple question, so please answer it.

Also, thank you for liking me. I like you, too. Brotherly love is good.

>And you continue to skip over the fact that the people in the
>documentary were LIED to in regards to what the documentary
>was going to be about and on how their commentary was going to
>be used. Jordan and the filmmakers intentionally created
>something that was opposite to what they reported to the
>people who are in it.

how do you know they were lied to? you don't. has anyone accused Jason Heier of lying to them - if so I haven't heard about it. also, isn't HOW you're going to use something creating narrative? putting spin on it? as opposed to just asking a question and airing their exact answer with no context (which how i guess Ken Burns wants it)?

>Do you not understand the injustice of that, when you are
>dealing with the legacy of people, and in how someone's legacy
>is told?

no lies were told with Scottie as far as i can tell. now, he may not enjoy how that made him look, but that's another story.

as far as Horace. no, i don't care, because these aren't NEW things. people BEEN said Horace was the snitch and Horace been said he ain't. as far as the whole standing up to Mike thing - i didn't even get that impression that they were saying "no one stands up to Mike everyone backs down" because they literally talked about Steve Kerr standing up to Mike and not backing down.

now, all that said, Horace is a four time NBA champ who gets a ton of respect in general (i respect him even if he WAS the snitch). he's also rich. his life and his reputation ARE FINE.

hope that answers your questions.

Here are the Lies, which Bill Cartwright stated in the video at the bottom of the thread:

- Scottie's 1.8 second sit out : The team totally forgot about it after it happened, and Cartwright did not cry after it happened. People simply moved on and there was no carry over from it.

- We already know about the Pizza situation

- Horace being a snitch, etc

- Harper,Pippen, Horace, Cartwright, etc were all informed and told that the documentary was going to be edited and made in a certain way, and that it was going to be a documentary based on the TEAM's last dance. This is why they all contributed! THEY AGREED TO DO A DOCUMENTARY THAT WAS TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE THAT WAS TELEVISED.

This is just going to go back and forth. I'm good.

Horace: It was like a Twilight Zone Moment
Steve: we don't know how to act. Scottie was like one of our favorite people in the world and he quit on us. We were devastated.
HORACE said Cartwright gave a speech and started crying and told Pip he let them down.
Paxson chimes in on the crying speech
Kerr adds that "tears were streaming down" Bill's face.
So who's lying? Look man, it doesn't make Scottie a piece of shit...but, it did happen. It's part of his story. He even doubled down and said he'd sit, again. HE SAID IT.

>- Scottie's 1.8 second sit out : The team totally forgot about
>it after it happened, and Cartwright did not cry after it
>happened. People simply moved on and there was no carry over
>from it.

IF IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THAT YOUTUBE VIDEO BELOW - I WATCHED THAT WHOLE INTERVIEW YOU LINKED THAT YOU THINK VINDICATES YOUR WHOLE STANCE IN THIS POST (IT DON'T - SPEAKING OF MISREPRESENTATION YOU MISREPRESENTED WHAT'S IN THE VIDEO AND THE TAKES THOSE PLAYERS ARE GIVING). NO WHERE IN IT DID BILL SAY EVERYONE JUST FORGOT ABOUT IT AND HE DIDN'T CRY. HE DID SAY WE TALKED ABOUT IT AND WE WERE ABLE TO MOVE ON AND TAKE THE KNICKS TO GAME 7.

also, the whole thing about what Horace saying that it's fucked up that MJ called Scottie selfish...he wasn't saying that he's a selfish player IN GENERAL he was saying in that moment, where Scottie wouldn't go into the game, THAT was selfish. AND IT WAS.

Well you need to rewatch it again, because they clearly stated how the team moved on after that and it was totally forgotten about by the team. It wasn’t something that lingered or affect the team after that, as the documentary portrayed because the series still went on.

They talked about it that day and moved on, and damn near went back to the championship. It was forgotten about it after that!

That is what Scottie is pissed about, the FALSE way it was portrayed and the fact
that it was resurfaced in the way that it was.

you said Bill Cartwright said he didn't cry: not true.

as Dstl1 even pointed out, Kerr said he was bawling.

you are putting words in these men's mouths.

and that's the last thing i'm gonna say about this.

also, i will go back to a point i made WAY back up the post: in that video interview you linked, Craig Hodges his DAMN self said...AND I FUCKING QUOTE: "the reality of it...and everybody that was in the reality of winning those championships WE ALL CAME AWAY WITH OUR OWN TRUTHS OF WHAT THEY WERE" (MEANING WHAT THOSE CHAMPIONSHIP SEASONS WERE.

and that's an actual quote that WAS said (at 20:55 into the video).

goodnight. have a great memorial day weekend everyone.

Bull and shit

Well, let me help you again.

Horace:" Scottie made a mistake, we addressed it after the game, and it was over with." It did not go on after that point. You do know what over with means, correct?


start at 3:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmSyudTzYPo

Like I said you want to continue to support the bullshit and dishonesty of documentary, then go right ahead. that's your choice.

where did * I * say that scottie sitting out was some big issue that just kept dragging on and weighed the team down and that no one could ever let it go.

i hope you let this go and have a good weekend. this seems to be weighing heavily on you.

That was to address the situation in general as well as DSTL1 who just stated after you that everyone was highly upset that it was a huge deal . It was a post for the both of you.

when I just posted a video of horace stating that scottie made a mistake, the team discussed it after the game and it was over with after that and the series went on.

you don't know everything. I DID watch it again...right after you told that lie, above. In fact, Episode 7 is paused on my tv, RIGHT NOW. You been going up and down this post, calling people liars and you flat-out made up some shit. The 1.8 second shit was big, when it happened. Period. Tony said even though the shot went in, everyone was pissed at what had just happened. YOU said Cartwright didn't cry...HORACE, PAXSON and KERR said he DID CRY...in front of the whole team and said "Scottie, I can't believe you did that". Wennington said Scottie cried AND apologized. Kerr went on to say they were all so upset because that knew that wasn't in Scottie's character.

See the end of this thread .....you skipped it.

More lies.

>It's not a documentary
>
>Calm down Karen.

TRASH

Here is some clarity for you.


Let’s say you’re a teammate of Michael Jordan’s , and the writers of the documentary come to you regarding putting together a documentary that will cover the Bulls’ last championship.

You’re informed the focus of the documentary will be on the Bulls team as a whole, and that your footage and commentary will be used to help bring the project to fruition. You’re also informed the doc will focus on the different perspectives of
of each bulls player.

However, when the doc comes out, it is totally divergent than what was communicated to you. And not only that, it includes inaccurate information on your time with the team and your interactions with your teammates.

People were lied to and lied on. It goes way beyond just being an entertainment piece to stimulate the minds and eyes of the viewer. You’re dealing with the reputation and names of men, and those men have families and friends and business associations. So it matters. You can get killed for globally putting out inaccurate information about a man in certain countries. Everything isn’t for shits and giggles.

See post 468. More lies. You skipped that though.

It’s the last post of the thread.

Blindly? This guy was tracked down, and he was the guy who made and delivered the pizza. He is not just some Utah resident.

Are you such a worshiper of number 23, that the contingency of him being a liar and putting out false stories to glorify his image evades you?

Also, It has everything to do with it, because it is in the documentary that we are discussing.

And it has to do with the fact that Jordan and his agent lied about the food poisoning/flu situation, when it appears that he was hung over.

It has to do with his credibility and integrity, and points to the possibility that other information and stories that he told in the documentary are untruths as well.

The purpose of a documentary is to accurately document reality. A documentary is an actuality film, and ,so far, we are learning that a lot of the information and stories that were provided in the documentary are far from being accurate.

You may not give a fuck about it being truthful or sincere, but the people he is slandering and defaming care about it tremendously....

WTF@these plea cops and deflections

Looks like we know who's still stuck with prepubescent logic skills

fucking alarming that people haven't incorporated any intelligence into their thinking over the last 30 years

Dave Kaplan, one of Chicago's best sports radio personalities, held an interview session today with Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges, and Ron Harper. They talked about what wasn't discussed in the documentary, and their perception of the Doc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UmL8fUnjDM&feature=youtu.be

Bill Cartwright: The documentary was one man's side of that piece of history, but it was far from reality.....translation: Lies.


One of the posters indexed what the players pointed out:


1. “The Last Dance” was a puff piece from one guys perspective
2. Pippen was portrayed unjustly
3. Krause was portrayed unjustly
4. Horace would have beat MJ’s ass if he tried to starve him from eating, there would have been no Air
5. Phil Jackson & Tex Winter creates a winning formula
6. MJ only bullied the weak players that didn’t stand up for themselves
7. MJ was a “f*cking snitch” who threw his teammates under the bus
8. They all sacrificed shots for the betterment and success of the team
9. The Coaching staff deserved more credit
10. Horace Grant wasn’t the snitch from “The Jordan Rules”.

The unfiltered truth from the Bulls.

1. MJ is a flaming asshole
2. MJ is a great b-ball player, and a likely candidate for GOAT

None of this is a surprise. All of the contect, anecdotes, one sided stories, arguments, re-tellings, etc all boil down to those two points.

None of this is news. None of this is a surprise. None of this should really change your perception of him you didn't already have. All 10 episodes just gave everyone a hyper sized dose of nostalgia and reinforced both of those points.

As a NBA fan from the 80s and a Knick fan in the 90s I absolutely HATED seeing Jordan win. I remember the majority of those news stories and pieces that came out and still hated him. But I could never, ever knock what he did on the court, whether the refs or the NBA bent things to help him out or not.

I was extremely entertained by the show. Whether you want to call it a documentary or puff piece is up to you. I don't care if Ken Burns produces it and if you talked to everybody that ever shook hands with or got cursed out by MJ in the last 45 years. Talk to his ex. Talk to the kids. Talk to every teammate ever. Talk to whomever thought he could walk on water and whomever thinks he's evil incarnate. You still have those two points.

1. MJ is a flaming asshole
2. MJ is a great b-ball player, and a likely candidate for GOAT

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

An Interview has surfaced of Jordan telling Rod Thorn that he will not play for the Dream Team if Isiah is there. Remember, he stated in the Documentary that he absolutely had nothing to do with Isiah not being selected.

The audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzTUl_iUz-U

So Rod Thorn and Jordan intentionally lied in the documentary. Both said:

"Before the '92 Olympics, Rod Thorn calls me and says, 'We would love for you to be on the Dream Team,'" Jordan said in the documentary. "I say, 'Who's all playing?' He says, 'What does that mean?' I say, 'Who's all playing?' He says, 'Well, the guy you're talking about or you're thinking about, he's not going to be playing.'

"I respect Isiah Thomas' talent. To me, the best point guard of all time is Magic Johnson and right behind him is Isiah Thomas. No matter how much I hate him, I respect his game. Now, it was insinuated that I was asking about him, but I never threw his name in there."


"There was never anything in my conversation with that had to do with Isiah Thomas, period," Thorn told Golic & Wingo. "He said, 'I'll do it.' ... Isiah's name never came up during that conversation. He never backtracked and said he didn't want to do it from that time on, to those of us in the NBA office."

JUST FLAT OUT LIES.


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29223706/michael-jordan-rod-thorn-play-isiah-thomas-dream-team


Now what will be the spin on this lie?

And they weren’t on the team. He didn’t get his lifetime achievement award like Bird, and get to stomp out some bullshit JV ‘92 Europe teams with a bunch of teammates who hated him. Oh well. Who really cares?

I feel you.

But it’s the whole cover up by Jordan that is disgusting.

I just want to see how they spin the lie.

You bruv...you do

You care

You care so much you're copping pleas that you know are bullshit

What is it with grown ass adults, logging in, posting replies, in an attempt to convince us you don't care?

You're doing it wrong.

It's crazy, bro. It like the book 1984,and 2+2= 5.

Every excuse will be made for this dude, and I'm from Chicago and I'm a Bulls fan. We saw the bullshit from the time he came to the team.


But you know What really gets under my skin the most out of all his bullshit and lies? The story about his first bulls teammates being in a room with prostitutes, cocaine and weed. I'm like really, nigga? This dude had been gambling since his days at NC, and when he got to chicago he started running and playing Golf with drug lords and gangsters, as well as having prostitutes. That's the part the really, really puts me off. Like he was this innocent dude in the land of the lost.

Tell me I’m wrong. Argue the point. Tell me what Isiah did in ‘88.

* Isiah is the second best point guard I’ve seen in my lifetime. This hot take ain’t personal.

one of my favorite posters, whether I agree with you or not.

excuse making, bitch.

don't get me started on magic.

it's all splitting hairs. his only claim is that he never told rod thorn what to do. and even in this version he didn't.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

This must be twilight zone. This is not splitting hairs. These are flat out lies:


He said he never mentioned Isiah's name, and said that he didn't have anything to do with that,and that his name didn't come up. Rod said the same thing.

Jordan: " It was insinuated that I asked about him, but I never threw his name out there"

IN the audio he told Rod that he would not play for the dream team if Isiah is there..period.

This was all in the doc:

"Before the '92 Olympics, Rod Thorn calls me and says, 'We would love for you to be on the Dream Team,'" Jordan said in the documentary. "I say, 'Who's all playing?' He says, 'What does that mean?' I say, 'Who's all playing?' He says, 'Well, the guy you're talking about or you're thinking about, he's not going to be playing.'

"I respect Isiah Thomas' talent. To me, the best point guard of all time is Magic Johnson and right behind him is Isiah Thomas. No matter how much I hate him, I respect his game. Now, it was insinuated that I was asking about him, but I never threw his name in there."


"There was never anything in my conversation with that had to do with Isiah Thomas, period," Thorn told Golic & Wingo. "He said, 'I'll do it.' ... Isiah's name never came up during that conversation. He never backtracked and said he didn't want to do it from that time on, to those of us in the NBA office."


Focus on the both of them saying : Isiah's name never came up, and that jordan never backtracked ....focus on that.

splitting hairs?..lol. I like the spin

Look at the lies ..."They spinning, nigga, they spinning" - Chris Rock

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

even Chuck Daly didn't put a cape on for dude. that says A LOT.

we all know Jordan has lied. has anyone ever said Jordan has unimpeachable character?

shit, he let it be documented that he made up lies.

lol.

you must hate Jordan something bad. you should put that energy elsewhere.

but I've never really heard him address the Isiah issue

Jordan lied (though, it's sort of razor's edge, thinnest of all lies kinda thing). the lie is that he said he didn't mention Zeke's name. clearly this recording disproves that. however, people are acting like the lie is that Mike said he LIKED Zeke. He never liked him and never pretended to like him.

also, mad people didn't fuck with Zeke and didn't want him on the team. he was a little punk and had been for years, so it shouldn't be that shocking.

*shrug*

What? Thinnest of lies? Dude,bye,

He blatantly lied and Rod followed with a blatant lie. There is nothing thin or soft about it, and he has been caught in several lies, which means now you have to question the truthfulness of his comments . You now have to question his credibility and integrity for not only lying, but telling the same lie for years and years every time he was asked about it.

The fact that you’re going to great lengths to disregard several immoral actions by this man, while others clearly see the intentional dishonesty that was put forth, makes one question your position as a person.

You are scratching and clawing for a man who gives no shit about anyone...and only brought basketball, entertainment, and gym shoes to the table. At least with lance, that dude saved thousands or possibly even millions of lives from cancer with his bullshit and lies.

I think it would be great if you stop responding to our posts about it, because I will not be responding to yours after this.

judge Mike all you want.

judge me all you want.

neither of us owe you shit.

you putting a lot of weight on some entertainment (that doc AND this message board).

but THAT shows me your character too, so i'll be judging you just the same.

now, to your comments:


"He blatantly lied and Rod followed with a blatant lie. There is nothing thin or soft about it, and he has been caught in several lies, which means now you have to question the truthfulness of his comments . You now have to question his credibility and integrity for not only lying, but telling the same lie for years and years every time he was asked about it."

I literally just said that no one cites Jordan as a bastion of intergrity.

"The fact that you’re going to great lengths to disregard several immoral actions by this man, while others clearly see the intentional dishonesty that was put forth, makes one question your position as a person."

not disregard. i know and acknowledge some (i say some because i don't know EVERYTHING) some shitty things Jordan did. just don't care. the stakes are too small.

"You are scratching and clawing for a man who gives no shit about anyone...and only brought basketball, entertainment, and gym shoes to the table. At least with lance, that dude saved thousands or possibly even millions of lives from cancer with his bullshit and lies."

is basketball, shoes and entertainment not enough? he doesn't HAVE to be Mother Teresa.

"I think it would be great if you stop responding to our posts about it, because I will not be responding to yours after this."

I mean, okay. do you.

I'm saying in regards to this topic. We just agree to disagree, so there is no sense in carrying on responding to each other.

You have your stance. I have mine.

LOLOL

I mean i hated jordan through the 90s.

I still can sit back and enjoy last dance tho

But but but he lied!!! Um and? Make an entertaining documentary about it release it while all sports are canceled and maybe i'll care.

im not even a big jordan fan/defender but the backlash to various things in/after the doc have been ridiculous.

its like we got a bunch of soccer moms going back over this mans legacy with a red marker.

and reverence for his peers and teammates."

: )