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Subject: "On: How Biggie Killed Hip-Hop (swipe)" Previous topic | Next topic
WarriorPoet415
Member since Sep 30th 2003
17897 posts
Mon Jan-27-14 10:13 AM

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"On: How Biggie Killed Hip-Hop (swipe)"


  

          

Can't say I agree, but got post something to pep up Monday morning, right?

http://sabotagetimes.com/music/biggie-killed-hip-hop-how-the-best-rapper-ever-ruined-an-entire-genre/


Biggie Killed Hip-Hop: How Big Poppa Ruined An Entire Genre

by Sam Diss
29 October 201317 Comments


He was the greatest rapper of all time, but I think Biggie eventually did more harm than good...

No one can deny Notorious BIG‘s talent or lasting appeal. A supremely skilled MC and charismatic performer, operating at the highest level in the most fruitful period of hip-hop’s existence and sure to go down in any fan’s top 3 of all time list. He had the best producers in the genre at his disposal and rapped in a way which seemed light-years ahead of most competitors. His debut LP, Read To Die, sold by the absolute shedload. And that was the problem.

From its inception, hip-hop was pitched as ‘Jazz 2.0′. It was the second American art-form that spoke politically and relevantly of a generation that was lost, in a way that the lost generation could relate to. Only unlike jazz it was ready accessible. You didn’t have to ‘look between the lines’, the lines were right in front of you and felt like nothing else. Ready To Die changed everything. Hip-hop soon fucked off the lessons it was supposed to be teaching and became pop music.

Released in 1994, it signalled the true end for the ‘golden age’ of hip-hop music. Record companies dropped scores of talented artists who didn’t fit into the Diddy-isation of what rap had to be and, sure, there were exceptions (Eminem, early Jay-Z) but they served more as notable exceptions which only underlined the lack of quality hip-hop music that attained commercial and critical success.

The creator of 1994′s other all-time great hip-hop album, Nas, would prove to be hit the hardest by Biggie’s influence. With Illmatic, he had what many touted as a new landmark in modern music but on losing out to BIG at the Billboard Awards in 1995, many attendants noted Nas looked defeated and visibly deflated. It was his time to achieve the commercial greatness that the album deserved but in the end it had been overlooked by Bad Boy’s influence on pop culture. Illmatic was tighter than Ready To Die – thematically, lyrically – but was eventually destined to fail in comparison; ultimately lacking the crossover appeal of its rival.

It’s often said that Nas was a victim of his own success. Conventional wisdom is that Illmatic was just too good an album for a young kid from Queens to follow and perhaps that’s true, but it’s hard to argue that had Ready To Die not changed the entire landscape of rap music – as Dr. Dre’s The Chronic had threatened to do two years previously – Nas would not have been pushed into creating such a disappointing second LP. It’s accepted that It Was Written… was created squarely with the charts in mind and it transpired that Nas was too square a peg for that particular hole. Nas’ skill laid in storytelling, understated lyricism, meticulous detail and attracting a superlative selection of beatmakers. It was most certainly not suited to big budget music videos, sweetly crooned choruses and production almost entirely handled by The Trackmasters. That formula would come to form the ABCs of successful overground hip-hop for dozens of artists and was followed precisely for It Was Written… but the fact remained that Nas simply wasn’t ‘that’ guy. The disappointing critical reaction to that record would see Nas’ career spiral for several years – a few bright spots here and there but mostly just flitting from one so-so album to the next.

It wasn’t just musically that Biggie’s influence would cause harm – it was also when hip-hop went first person. Granted, Wu-Tang Clan rapped about the projects, murder and drug dealing in 36 Chambers but there it was allegorical, anecdotal and merely another piece of a larger narrative framework. For Biggie, he, himself, was the framework around which everything revolved. Diddy cleverly presented Christopher Wallace the person and Christopher Wallace the rapper as one and the same and it proved to be a winning formula.

His rapping candidly about his time selling crack (and the other deeds that would branch off such a career…) was at least delivered with a few shades of guilt from Biggie, which made him seem human – it was just a means to an end; he was just trying to get some money to feed his young daughter. It wasn’t the act that was glorified, only the attitude was – the ‘by any means necessary’ logic required by many to escape a tough situation. Trouble is people just saw the subject (here, selling a shit-load of drugs) without any of the context. They only saw what was at the surface of BIG’s music.

This shallow reading of Ready To Die (and to a lesser extent Life After Death) saw the rise of superficial rappers who had little substance but would really the rap the shit out of telling you how many drugs they sold. 50 Cent was one of the better examples nearly a decade later: a self-styled gangsta who made his name from getting shot a whole bunch of times who lucked out in being picked up by Dr. Dre‘s Aftermath Records and treated to some of the best production in modern rap history. Using experience as the basis for music is by no means a bad thing, but when the character becomes bigger than the content – and the music just an excuse for empty narcissism – then there’s a problem.

Biggie’s videos offered another problem too. While ‘the American Dream’ was an ideal that obviously had a lasting appeal amongst inner-city youth, Biggie’s music video for ‘Juicy’ would prove to set the benchmark for ‘shooting music videos in a rented mansion full of babes’ excess in rap. While that video fit the narrative of that particular track, it didn’t take long for less tactful imitators to spring up. Soon went the beloved ‘hood video’ (shot with authenticity in the projects on a cheap camera, inexplicably sepia-toned footage of the rapper surrounded by fifty of his mates, etc) as Hype Williams’ hyper-reality of big booty bitches at poolside and enough champagne to drown James Bond became the new standard.

The Roots’ viciously satirical video for ‘What They Do’ would comprehensively define the period with every stock convention clearly presented and annotated in the video (rented mansion, rented car, professional models, lighting tricks). In the song itself they rapped “The principles of true hip-hop have been forsaken. It’s all contractual and about money making” and they weren’t kidding. Diddy would later reveal to the band that Biggie was ‘hurt’ by the video. ?uestlove – The Roots’ iconicly-afroed drummer and self-styled leader – wrote a letter to the rapper claiming that it wasn’t a video specifically aimed at him, just at the changing landscape that had latched onto what he had made. Before the letter could be delivered, Biggie was murdered in Los Angeles.

While stylistically the videos reflected the ever-increasing commercial popularity of the genre, they would also reflect its superficiality. From the overt politicking of Public Enemy to the ‘conscious’ hip-hop of Native Tongues in the early-90s, hip-hop remained remained ‘cool’ even as it spoke ABOUT something. It remained both culturally relevant and socially necessary. From 94/95 onward (reaching its zenith at the turn of the millennium), rap would be increasingly focused on materialism and posturing; ideas that had always inflected the genre but hadn’t, until then, come to define it.

While there have been popular counters to the culture that was created (with the Soulquarians’ short-lived critical and commercial success coming to mind), the genre was irrevocably sullied. It was marred by something that was so great that it spawned a million imitators; each a weak facsimile of what came before. Quality hip-hop would never again come as close to mainstream acceptance as regularly as it did in the late-eighties and early-nineties. Hip-hop became a marked victim of its own success.
______________________________________________________________________________

cscpov.blogspot.com

"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..."
-unknown

"To Each His Reach"

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I stopped at "From its inception hip-hop was Jazz 2.0"
Jan 27th 2014
1
RE: I stopped at "From its inception hip-hop was Jazz 2.0"
Jan 27th 2014
3
      "pitched as" wouldn't fit in the subject line
Jan 27th 2014
4
           arent you the guy who post a Louis Armstrong vid as proof that...
Jan 27th 2014
6
           thanks for reminding me
Jan 27th 2014
7
                if u aint up for it just say ur not up for it
Jan 27th 2014
9
                     go fry some chicken for your black neighbors white boy
Jan 27th 2014
11
                          too easy
Jan 27th 2014
12
           i rolled my eyes @ the "jazz but accessible" shit
Jan 28th 2014
37
As soon as I saw that it tried to make hip hop start off as
Jan 27th 2014
2
where did you "see" that?
Jan 27th 2014
5
      This whole paragraph
Jan 27th 2014
8
           what you said isn't in that paragraph
Jan 27th 2014
10
                Umm... Clearly it does
Jan 27th 2014
13
                     he never said anything about "political" rap
Jan 27th 2014
14
                          explain how you interpret this sentence.
Jan 27th 2014
16
                          hip-hop spoke to and of the politics of it's creators
Jan 27th 2014
22
                          Are you serious dude???????
Jan 27th 2014
18
                               he used the adverb "politically", he does not define hip-hop based...
Jan 27th 2014
23
I remember hating Big for that line in one more chance
Jan 27th 2014
15
Come on man, don't be mad. UPS is hiring
Jan 27th 2014
24
The South Killed hiphop
Jan 27th 2014
17
Naw
Jan 27th 2014
21
RE: The South Killed hiphop
Jan 27th 2014
26
Nah, blame yourself.
Jan 28th 2014
39
      I think I'll still blame the South.
Jan 28th 2014
46
           Well they obviously have your attention. That's your fault tho.
Jan 29th 2014
50
                My fault the south dominates the air waves/YouTube views.
Jan 30th 2014
51
"He was the greatest rapper of all time" **close tab**
Jan 27th 2014
19
I'm glad I'm not the only one. n/m
Jan 27th 2014
20
RE: "He was the greatest rapper of all time" **close tab**
Jan 27th 2014
25
That's where I got off...
Jan 28th 2014
44
I'm surprised he didn't blame The West Coast
Jan 27th 2014
27
ppl expected that from the West, the East was *seen* as the preserver...
Jan 27th 2014
28
      They didn't expect anything in the beginning
Jan 27th 2014
29
           lol
Jan 27th 2014
30
                NWA went pop with MTV video ban and FBI letter
Jan 27th 2014
31
                its irrelevant to the discussion but what NWA single was as big as...
Jan 27th 2014
32
                G Thang & Gin & Juice were huge pop songs
Jan 28th 2014
36
                     i went over that in post 32
Jan 28th 2014
40
                          Obviously I didn't see that when I posted my response
Jan 28th 2014
47
Biggie didn't kill hip hop...Diddy and Bad Boy Entertainment did.
Jan 27th 2014
33
BIG was the legitimizing factor
Jan 27th 2014
34
      I agree, Biggie was the perfect puppet for Diddy's agenda.
Jan 27th 2014
35
RE: On: How Biggie Killed Hip-Hop (swipe)
Jan 28th 2014
38
also, Biggie did more to legitimize Crack in Rap more than any MC
Jan 28th 2014
41
i don't know much about hip hop, but i'm jumping in here.
Jan 28th 2014
43
Interesting. Disagree tho. We are blaming the wrong rapper
Jan 28th 2014
42
RE: Interesting. Disagree tho. We are blaming the wrong rapper
Jan 28th 2014
48
ALL YALL NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE
Jan 28th 2014
45
that was lame, no mention of Outkast
Jan 29th 2014
49

imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Jan-27-14 10:22 AM

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1. "I stopped at "From its inception hip-hop was Jazz 2.0""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Mon Jan-27-14 11:24 AM

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3. "RE: I stopped at "From its inception hip-hop was Jazz 2.0""
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

not even what he said tho

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Jan-27-14 11:33 AM

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4. ""pitched as" wouldn't fit in the subject line"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

and that only makes it less true.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
21673 posts
Mon Jan-27-14 11:39 AM

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6. "arent you the guy who post a Louis Armstrong vid as proof that..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

battle rapping was analogous to jazz traditions?

when i differentiated between competition in jazz & rap didn't you beg to differ?

the jazz culture of nyc, including a strong tradition of spoken word & proto-rapping was not influential on early hip-hop?

lol

you're right dude, it was disco & funk only hahaha

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Jan-27-14 12:05 PM

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7. "thanks for reminding me"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

not to debate with bartek 2.0.
bye.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Mon Jan-27-14 12:13 PM

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9. "if u aint up for it just say ur not up for it"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

that pigeonholing me bc of popular perception is just a weak excuse, especially when my views on this are likely quite divergent from the character you mentioned

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Jan-27-14 12:17 PM

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11. "go fry some chicken for your black neighbors white boy"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12328293&mesg_id=12328293&page=2#12328305

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
21673 posts
Mon Jan-27-14 12:42 PM

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12. "too easy"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

how it feel to be some whiteboy's light work?

lmao

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Tue Jan-28-14 03:14 AM

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37. "i rolled my eyes @ the "jazz but accessible" shit"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Homey need to read a book.

  

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zuma1986
Member since Dec 18th 2006
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Mon Jan-27-14 10:23 AM

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2. "As soon as I saw that it tried to make hip hop start off as"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

political music as oppose to party music than I stopped reading.

  

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philpot
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5. "where did you "see" that?"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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zuma1986
Member since Dec 18th 2006
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8. "This whole paragraph"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

"From its inception, hip-hop was pitched as ‘Jazz 2.0′. It was the second American art-form that spoke politically and relevantly of a generation that was lost, in a way that the lost generation could relate to. Only unlike jazz it was ready accessible. You didn’t have to ‘look between the lines’, the lines were right in front of you and felt like nothing else. Ready To Die changed everything. Hip-hop soon fucked off the lessons it was supposed to be teaching and became pop music."

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Mon Jan-27-14 12:15 PM

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10. "what you said isn't in that paragraph"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

unless you're reading a dialectic that isn't there into it

seems your preconceived notions about the "argument" are getting in the way of understanding what the writer is getting at

admittedly he does a poor job of expressing his point

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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zuma1986
Member since Dec 18th 2006
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13. "Umm... Clearly it does"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

"It was the second American art-form that spoke politically and relevantly of a generation that was lost"
-His definition of hip hop was that it was political art-form. Not that it had a wide range from dance music to comedy to political or that some artists were politically charged. Nope, his definition was that it's political in nature.

Worse he goes on to say "Ready To Die changed everything. Hip-hop soon fucked off the lessons it was supposed to be teaching and became pop music."
- As if there was no pop rap before that (MC Hammer anyone?) or that everything hip hop was about the message before that.

I have no problem with the argument the author is making. I think Puffy specifically had a huge part in trying to make hip hop as mainstream as possible. But if you want to get technical "The Chronic" would be a better album to single out as the turning point in hip hop. My problem is that the author and many ppl think that hip hop was ever an entirely political or lyrical art form. It didn't start off that way and sure is not anything close to that now. It's water, it takes the shape of whatever it wants. If it wants to be political, it can and has. But it's also taken the shape of almost everything.

  

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philpot
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14. "he never said anything about "political" rap"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

you are reading that into his statement bc that's what you want him to be saying so it fits your false dialectic

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Jan-27-14 01:46 PM

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16. "explain how you interpret this sentence. "
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

"It was the second American art-form that spoke politically and relevantly of a generation that was lost"

>you are reading that into his statement bc that's what you
>want him to be saying so it fits your false dialectic
>
>


no snark.

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Mon Jan-27-14 02:27 PM

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22. "hip-hop spoke to and of the politics of it's creators"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

it wasn't the "end all be all" and he never says it was and he never indicates he means political speech or political content in rhymes

that's why he makes little stink about the content of Big's raps, it's more about how his presence helped bounce it to more of a pop level and bc be was so skilled that his presence legitimized going pop (as previously almost all crossover rappers were viewed as inferior skill wise)

fact is hip-hop *was* partially a product of the politics of the youth in NY that birthed the culture, whether the content of the music was overtly political or not

but as usual ppl want to reduce the argument to "party" vs "politics" or "conscious" vs "gangster" or whatever other absurd dialectics help ppl remember what side they ride for

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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zuma1986
Member since Dec 18th 2006
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Mon Jan-27-14 01:55 PM

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18. "Are you serious dude???????"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

He defined hip hop as being political, according to his definition "political rap" is redundant b/c to him it's one in the same.

Unless you can properly explain to me how I'm suppose to read that paragraph I'm just going to assume you're a moron or a troll b/c it's pretty spelled out.

  

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philpot
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Mon Jan-27-14 02:39 PM

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23. "he used the adverb "politically", he does not define hip-hop based..."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

on politics and there is no discussion of specifically political rhyme content

i understand we've been duped into thinking you can't say "politically" in hip-hop w/o jumping to a mental image of Chuck D but this was clearly a statement as to the more general street or cultural "politics" that defined hip-hop's birth

as i said above this idea that it must be "this" or "that" is erroneous

for example, Style Wars shows young bombers acting out the politics of heir position in early 80's NYC even tho they are not making direct political statements

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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j.
Member since Feb 24th 2009
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Mon Jan-27-14 01:24 PM

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15. "I remember hating Big for that line in one more chance"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Where you at, flipping jobs, paying car notes?
while I'm swimming in your woman like the breast stroke

I had just graduated HS and was flipping burgers at BK while being 24/7 hip hop head, but when I heard that line I was like fuck this fat fuck.

I didn't even have a car yet, but I remember thinking that he was shitting on the working cat and trying to take his woman at that.

But my hate subsided when I saw how the chickenheads in the party would go crazy when the song came on

Little did I know what hip hop would become as the years went on

  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
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24. "Come on man, don't be mad. UPS is hiring"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

  

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Kid Ray
Member since Sep 23rd 2010
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Mon Jan-27-14 01:48 PM

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17. "The South Killed hiphop "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Master P gave hiphop it's death blow, the rest is history.

  

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zuma1986
Member since Dec 18th 2006
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Mon Jan-27-14 02:17 PM

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21. "Naw"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

If anything it's the way the media (BET especially) heavily promoted them and gave only a small range of it

  

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spidey
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Mon Jan-27-14 06:43 PM

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26. "RE: The South Killed hiphop "
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

Just about right, and no one wants to be the one to say it, cause it's all about some love ish these days....There was still plenty of diversity in the Hip Hop/Rap game during Big's time, it's just he blew up...there was A LOT of hot ish during that time, from what might be called commercial, to underground acts...anyway, the writers knowledge of Hip Hop seems very limited....

Integrity is the Cornerstone of Artistry...

  

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Clarence Clarke
Member since Dec 14th 2013
1295 posts
Tue Jan-28-14 06:04 AM

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39. "Nah, blame yourself."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

Why not just go to the root and say NWA killed it?
I'd disagree either way, but that makes more sense.

Anyway... to my point...

Oh you mean ratchet, dumbed down lyrics?
Well that would mean the fans killed it because they supported that.

Look at a guy like Wise Intelligent.
He's still doing his thing without compromise.
There's what you call Hip Hop, alive and well.

You just focus so much on Master P that YOU kill Hip Hop, yourself.
It's still there, but what name did you mention in this post?


+
+
+
+
+
Everything's turning out perfectly

  

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Kid Ray
Member since Sep 23rd 2010
1702 posts
Tue Jan-28-14 01:06 PM

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46. "I think I'll still blame the South."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

If I look at the timeline of the music that came out since the No Limit era is enough proof for me.

  

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Ashley Ayers
Member since Dec 12th 2009
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50. "Well they obviously have your attention. That's your fault tho."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

  

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Kid Ray
Member since Sep 23rd 2010
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51. "My fault the south dominates the air waves/YouTube views."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

It's my fault that the south is the face of hiphop.

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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19. ""He was the greatest rapper of all time" **close tab**"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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20. "I'm glad I'm not the only one. n/m"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

  

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spidey
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25. "RE: "He was the greatest rapper of all time" **close tab**"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

lol...yeah, crazy talk...no need to really go any further....

Integrity is the Cornerstone of Artistry...

  

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Sleepy
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44. "That's where I got off..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

  

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Luke Cage
Member since Dec 14th 2005
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Mon Jan-27-14 08:10 PM

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27. "I'm surprised he didn't blame The West Coast"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

since that's where you first saw people sell shit loads of records with "negative" material. I guess at this point that wouldn't be as "shocking" as claiming the man who many call greatest rapper of all time is the reason that the genre is supposedly dead. Predictable, , ill informed and lazy. It definitely reads like it was written by an outsider.

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Mon Jan-27-14 08:18 PM

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28. "ppl expected that from the West, the East was *seen* as the preserver..."
In response to Reply # 27
Mon Jan-27-14 08:20 PM by philpot

  

          

im not saying this is correct but even the "traditional" rappers from LA & the Bay looked to NY to get true school "cred"

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Luke Cage
Member since Dec 14th 2005
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29. "They didn't expect anything in the beginning"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

Prior to Ice T Hip Hop from the West Coast was Electro dance shit. My point is if you are looking to "blame" someone or movement then there was a huge shift after people saw NWA sell millions of records saying whatever the fuck they wanted to on record. Then Snoop and Death Row took that to a pop level. Biggie wasn't the first flossy NY dude or even the first gangster dude so why not blame G Rap, Just Ice or any of those dudes? It's just a poorly written article that really tries to simplify things.

>im not saying this is correct but even the "traditional"
>rappers from LA & the Bay looked to NY to get true school
>"cred"


  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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30. "lol"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

>My point is if you are looking to "blame" someone or
>movement then there was a huge shift after people saw NWA sell
>millions of records saying whatever the fuck they wanted to on
>record.

with no pop singles

>Then Snoop and Death Row took that to a pop level


>Biggie wasn't the first flossy NY dude or even the first
>gangster dude so why not blame G Rap, Just Ice or any of those
>dudes? It's just a poorly written article that really tries to
>simplify things.

yet they never went pop & neither of those dudes made pop records, big was the first legit true skilled NY MC (again the perception was tilted to the East for so called "real" hip-hop) to break a big pop record (run dmc were a group) .... big poppa was fucking huge, my 13 year old white sister had that shit thats how i got a good non radio dub of who shot ya lol



>>im not saying this is correct but even the "traditional"
>>rappers from LA & the Bay looked to NY to get true school
>>"cred"
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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j.
Member since Feb 24th 2009
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Mon Jan-27-14 09:36 PM

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31. "NWA went pop with MTV video ban and FBI letter"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

white boys loved that shit

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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32. "its irrelevant to the discussion but what NWA single was as big as..."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Big Poppa?

G Thing & Dre Day were but, again, Big was the first NY artist to have a HUGE pop single (followed by an arguably huger joint), and he came up w/ smaller hits
& R&B guest shots, he was respected as an MCs MC ....

he was the figure that moved what was considered "real" deal NY hip hop to the mainstream

that's the point i think, however ill stated, of this article

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Luke Cage
Member since Dec 14th 2005
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Tue Jan-28-14 12:49 AM

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36. "G Thang & Gin & Juice were huge pop songs"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Dre & Snoop both sold way more than Biggie ever did. Even the biggest Snoop detractors would admit that Snoop was a highly skilled MC in those days. G Thang was the damn Hip Hop anthem for a couple of years.

>yet they never went pop & neither of those dudes made pop
>records, big was the first legit true skilled NY MC (again the
>perception was tilted to the East for so called "real"
>hip-hop) to break a big pop record (run dmc were a group) ....
>big poppa was fucking huge, my 13 year old white sister had
>that shit thats how i got a good non radio dub of who shot ya

That's incorrect too and why this article is so annoying. It not only tries to simplify history it also tries to rewrite it. LL was making pop records back when Big was in high school. I've long said that Walking With A Panther was the blueprint for many of the flossed out, fly NY MC's that would blow up in the next decade. Champagne popping, booties wiggling in videos, obvious attempts at crossover to wider audiences...LL did all of that and sold shit loads of records long before Big Poppa. That doesn't even include BDK who did a lot of the same thing, to lesser success obviously, before Big as well. Like I said this article comes across as an outsider discussing something he has minimal knowledge about and trying to come across as an expert on it to whoever his followers might be.
>
>
>
>>>im not saying this is correct but even the "traditional"
>>>rappers from LA & the Bay looked to NY to get true school
>>>"cred"
>>
>>
>>
>

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Tue Jan-28-14 08:34 AM

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40. "i went over that in post 32"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

>Dre & Snoop both sold way more than Biggie ever did. Even the
>biggest Snoop detractors would admit that Snoop was a highly
>skilled MC in those days. G Thang was the damn Hip Hop anthem
>for a couple of years.

no, it was an MTV anthem for a couple of years LOL

still, none of this speaks to Biggie, considered a singularly skilled MC & no matter how much you scream "west coast" in the context of those says a hard & skilled NY street rapper crossing over to top 40 was unheard of


>>yet they never went pop & neither of those dudes made pop
>>records, big was the first legit true skilled NY MC (again
>the
>>perception was tilted to the East for so called "real"
>>hip-hop) to break a big pop record (run dmc were a group)
>....
>>big poppa was fucking huge, my 13 year old white sister had
>>that shit thats how i got a good non radio dub of who shot
>ya
>
>That's incorrect too and why this article is so annoying. It
>not only tries to simplify history it also tries to rewrite
>it. LL was making pop records back when Big was in high
>school. I've long said that Walking With A Panther was the
>blueprint for many of the flossed out, fly NY MC's that would
>blow up in the next decade. Champagne popping, booties
>wiggling in videos, obvious attempts at crossover to wider
>audiences...LL did all of that and sold shit loads of records
>long before Big Poppa. That doesn't even include BDK who did a
>lot of the same thing, to lesser success obviously, before Big
>as well. Like I said this article comes across as an outsider
>discussing something he has minimal knowledge about and trying
>to come across as an expert on it to whoever his followers
>might be.
>>

dude, no matter how many precursors there were for the crossover move, NONE, not LL, not Kane, NONE of them crossed over to top 40 & white audiences like Biggie did w/ Big Poppa & One More Chance (and ultimately Hypnotize)

none were anywhere near as influential on the rise of Jay Z

i think you just dont like the premise, you are making assumptions about the author & therefore your being "annoyed" is more important than what the author is trying to say about Big's role in the dismantling of clandestine hip-hop culture

its so weird to see ppl proudly declare "im not reading further" bc of *insert nitpicky burr up someone's ass* like they dont even realize it makes them look like an intolerant snob who would rather hold on to their dogmatic preconceptions instead of engaging a wider ranging and logical analysis

cats cant let go of their emotional reactions to certain ideas in hip hop

time to grow up

>>
>>>>im not saying this is correct but even the "traditional"
>>>>rappers from LA & the Bay looked to NY to get true school
>>>>"cred"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Luke Cage
Member since Dec 14th 2005
3047 posts
Tue Jan-28-14 03:17 PM

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47. "Obviously I didn't see that when I posted my response"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

>>Dre & Snoop both sold way more than Biggie ever did. Even
>the
>>biggest Snoop detractors would admit that Snoop was a highly
>>skilled MC in those days. G Thang was the damn Hip Hop
>anthem
>>for a couple of years.
>
>no, it was an MTV anthem for a couple of years LOL

Laugh out loud all you want but yes indeed those were and are HIP HOP anthems. I could care less about you trying to rewrite history as if so called "real Hip Hoppers" weren't fucking with those songs the fact is they did. Big time.
>
>still, none of this speaks to Biggie, considered a singularly
>skilled MC & no matter how much you scream "west coast" in the
>context of those says a hard & skilled NY street rapper
>crossing over to top 40 was unheard of

Not one time have I screamed "West Coast" in this thread. I merely pointed out that what he was being critical of Biggie for was already done before by the West Coast and in fact Big was looked at by many as a savior for being able to bring hard core street shit to the masses. How you interpret that point is on you.

>
>dude, no matter how many precursors there were for the
>crossover move, NONE, not LL, not Kane, NONE of them crossed
>over to top 40 & white audiences like Biggie did w/ Big Poppa
>& One More Chance (and ultimately Hypnotize)

>
>none were anywhere near as influential on the rise of Jay Z

If you don't think LL crossed over to top 40 and white audiences then I don't know what to tell you because the fact is he did. You don't sell 2 million records without crossover big time.
>
>i think you just dont like the premise, you are making
>assumptions about the author & therefore your being "annoyed"
>is more important than what the author is trying to say about
>Big's role in the dismantling of clandestine hip-hop culture

I don't like the premise because it's factually incorrect and an oversimplification of the changes in Hip Hop.
>
>its so weird to see ppl proudly declare "im not reading
>further" bc of *insert nitpicky burr up someone's ass* like
>they dont even realize it makes them look like an intolerant
>snob who would rather hold on to their dogmatic preconceptions
>instead of engaging a wider ranging and logical analysis

I read the entire thing and I see why people didn't read on. Especially with the headline it's obvious to many folks that this was an attempted attention grabbing headline and what would follow would be based on the perception of an outsider. That was pretty easy to pick up from the get go. If I were to write a story about how "The Ramones killed Punk Rock" and start the article off with some things that people from Punk Rock culture would mostly agree just wasn't true I would expect the same reaction.
>
>cats cant let go of their emotional reactions to certain ideas
>in hip hop
>
>time to grow up
>
>>>
>>>>>im not saying this is correct but even the "traditional"
>>>>>rappers from LA & the Bay looked to NY to get true school
>>>>>"cred"
>>>>
Of course they did because NY was/is the Mecca and starting place of Hip Hop. That has little to do with Biggie or Puff supposedly "killing the culture" of Hip Hop. It's never been one thing so when outsiders try to rewrite history and claim that it was it's annoying. If being annoyed at someone providing incorrect information makes people immature or emotional in your eyes then so be it.

  

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45RPM
Member since Jan 23rd 2014
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Mon Jan-27-14 10:02 PM

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33. "Biggie didn't kill hip hop...Diddy and Bad Boy Entertainment did."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Taking the grittiness out of the music.

Remixing every record with The Hitmen.

Those ugly ass shiny suits.

All the Champagne and money throwing in the videos.

3rd rate hood chick video models.

35MM Kodak Eastman ArriFlex shot videos with saturated lighting.

It became more about visuals rather the quality and culture of hip hop music. People was no longer listening to hip hop, because they were transfixed by the glittery of the glamorous images projected.

The worst offence was Diddy and his cronies pretty much murdered the message within the music by substituting it with no substance.

Can't no one tell that Diddy isn't CIA or or something to that effect. Listen to Biggies demos before he was signed to Diddy, he was a totally different artist.

That comedian was right Diddy is the devil.

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Mon Jan-27-14 10:09 PM

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34. "BIG was the legitimizing factor"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

take him out of the equation & Bad Boy is *just* a pop/r&b label w/
borderline weak rappers

BIG legitimized & enabled the supposed "real"
hip-hop crossover & legitimized the Puffs of the world

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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45RPM
Member since Jan 23rd 2014
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Mon Jan-27-14 11:01 PM

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35. "I agree, Biggie was the perfect puppet for Diddy's agenda."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

He was desperate for the stardom that Diddy promised and delivered him. All the way to his death. Now he's an icon for idiots on the streets, especially for the suckers in Brooklyn that bought into all of that shit.

  

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squeeg
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Tue Jan-28-14 04:23 AM

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38. "RE: On: How Biggie Killed Hip-Hop (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>From its inception, hip-hop was pitched as ‘Jazz 2.0′.
>It was the second American art-form that spoke politically and
>relevantly of a generation that was lost, in a way that the
>lost generation could relate to. Only unlike jazz it was ready
>accessible. You didn’t have to ‘look between the lines’, the
>lines were right in front of you and felt like nothing else.
>Ready To Die changed everything. Hip-hop soon fucked off the
>lessons it was supposed to be teaching and became pop music.

Sure, some rap attempted to teach lessons, but just as much of it had no interest in heavier matters. Much of the more "political" and message-laden music tapered off before Biggie's album dropped. And I'd argue the turn to pop started with 'The Chronic' and SoundScan.


>Released in 1994, it signalled the true end for the ‘golden
>age’ of hip-hop music. Record companies dropped scores of
>talented artists who didn’t fit into the Diddy-isation of what
>rap had to be and, sure, there were exceptions (Eminem, early
>Jay-Z) but they served more as notable exceptions which only
>underlined the lack of quality hip-hop music that attained
>commercial and critical success.

I disagree with Jay-Z (early or not) being an exception. He fit right in with what the prototypical rapper was to be post-'Ready To Die'.


>With Illmatic, he had what many touted as a new
>landmark in modern music but on losing out to BIG at the
>Billboard Awards in 1995, many attendants noted Nas looked
>defeated and visibly deflated. It was his time to achieve the
>commercial greatness that the album deserved but in the end it
>had been overlooked by Bad Boy’s influence on pop culture.
>Illmatic was tighter than Ready To Die – thematically,
>lyrically – but was eventually destined to fail in comparison;
>ultimately lacking the crossover appeal of its rival.

This reads a lot like Questlove's retelling of what he observed at the infamous 1995 Source Awards. Did the writer get his stories crossed, or did a similar loss occur at the Billboard Awards?




_______________________________
gamblers and masturbators.

http://urkelmoedee.com
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PSN: UrkelMoeDee

  

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philpot
Member since Apr 01st 2007
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Tue Jan-28-14 09:31 AM

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41. "also, Biggie did more to legitimize Crack in Rap more than any MC"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Tue Jan-28-14 11:07 AM

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43. "i don't know much about hip hop, but i'm jumping in here. "
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

it was never a problem that rappers were talking about crack and gangster shit.
that's not what "killed" hip hop.

what killed it was the fact that labels quit giving
shine to rappers that WEREN'T talking about crack and gangster shit.

and to be honest, if we are going to blame an artist,
this article is off the mark.
the label's decision to push gangsta rap as the only kind of hip hop
has more to do with "the chronic" than with biggie.

as much as i hate puffy,
dre's overrated masterpiece is more to blame for what the article is talking about.

  

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BigReg
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Tue Jan-28-14 09:55 AM

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42. "Interesting. Disagree tho. We are blaming the wrong rapper"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jan-28-14 03:53 PM by BigReg

  

          

As far as modern 2014 trends who casts the bigger shadow.

The rapper who made friends with an R&B producer/record label head to soften the edge of gangsta rap and make it go pop.

Or the dude that actively campaigned to become the deity of gangsta rap off a completely fake persona after he stopped dancing for Digital Underground.

I can't ride against biggie simply because of the fact during a period where hip-hop was decisively ANTI club he brought it back to more of its 'roots' per-say(ie, the backbacker blowback in the 90's was less about content cause lord knows you could kill/maim/shoot in an underground song it was more about the cleaner 'sheen' that they felt crossover songs had as opposed to keeping it grimy).

And we also skip over the nuance of the fact that he presented it in a relatively nuanced light over at least Ready to Die and to a certain extent even Life After Death. It's wasn't the perfect alpha male gangster paradise that Jay-Z built a brand of.

Shifts were already happening with The Chronic having a pop music impact only eclipsed by Nevermind...I remember when ?uest gave a fuck about the boards he had an interesting post about how we underestimate Wu-Tang's songwriting because 36 Chamber's was as hook heavy as anything that was out at the time. Hardcore rap and pop popularity was going to inevitably hit similar to how Metallica became one of the biggest rock bands in the world: we forget that right off Death Certificate fully anti-semetic/asian Ice Cube was doing videos with Red Hot Chili Peppers, lol.


So I am confused why we take it out on him simply because he was a great MC and supposed bastion of NYC boom bap when the walls had already fallen...hell, he even got a chance to ride the wave: Hell, one of his Ready To Die makeover blueprints was Too Short's pimp persona and there's a reason why a duet with Bone Thugz was one of his biggest records.





  

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Luke Cage
Member since Dec 14th 2005
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Tue Jan-28-14 03:36 PM

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48. "RE: Interesting. Disagree tho. We are blaming the wrong rapper"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

You just summarized exactly why this article is poorly articulated and incorrect. You also just showed how much more complicated the shifts in Hip Hop were and that boiling it down to one person or trend is foolish.

>As far as modern 2014 trends who casts the bigger shadow.
>
>The rapper who made friends with an R&B producer/record label
>head to soften the edge of gangsta rap and make it go pop.
>
>Or the dude that actively campaigned to become the deity of
>gangsta rap off a completely fake persona after he stopped
>dancing for Digital Underground.
>
>I can't ride against biggie simply because of the fact during
>a period where hip-hop was decisively ANTI club he brought it
>back to more of its 'roots' per-say(ie, the backbacker
>blowback in the 90's was less about content cause lord knows
>you could kill/maim/shoot in an underground song it was more
>about the cleaner 'sheen' that they felt those songs had as
>opposed to keeping it grimy).
>
>And we also skip over the nuance of the fact that he presented
>it in a relatively nuanced light over at least Ready to Die
>and to a certain extent even Life After Death. It's wasn't
>the perfect alpha male gangster paradise that Jay-Z built a
>brand of.
>
>Shifts were already happening with The Chronic having a pop
>music impact only eclipsed by Nevermind...I remember when
>?uest gave a fuck about the boards he had an interesting post
>about how we underestimate Wu-Tang's songwriting because 36
>Chamber's was as hook heavy as anything that was out at the
>time. Hardcore rap and pop popularity was going to inevitably
>hit similar to how Metallica became one of the biggest rock
>bands in the world; Ice Cube was doing videos (in the
>anti-semite angry Ice Cube era) with Red Hot Chili peppers at
>time we forget.
>
>So I am confused why we take it out on him simply because he
>was a great MC...imho all the things about him being NYC* thus
>making it cool, etc...moot points particularly since
>regionalism had already taken place in hip-hop before he
>arrived. Hell, one of his blue prints was obviously Too
>Short's pimp persona and there's a reason why a duet with Bone
>Thugz was one of his biggest records.
>
>
>
>
>
>

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Tue Jan-28-14 12:31 PM

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45. "ALL YALL NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and go listen to that Dante Ross Juan Epstein interview. fuck this dumb shit

  

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beatnik
Member since Oct 24th 2004
2950 posts
Wed Jan-29-14 12:38 AM

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49. "that was lame, no mention of Outkast"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If it was titled "the style that launched 1000 imitators" it would make more sense.

PEACE LOVE and MONEY

https://soundcloud.com/dabeatnik/drumpf-beer

  

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