Inspired by that de la tribe poll. IMO 3FT is at the top of the sampling hip-hop pantheon. And by wall of sound here I don't necessarily mean cacophony styled, but more where the whole palate of sound for an album is directly derrived from sampling. Peoples while having that also has more of a single sample beat fel, where 3rt with samples cutting in and out all over the place fit directly nto an aesthetic which displayed the possibilities of a limitless sample palate. Others include Pauls, Endtro and Nation of course.
But after the sampling crackdown the aesthetic itself didn't have the time to continue evolving and so the albums from it are like relics which to the average listener sound dated and not something worth learning from and or emulating. Couple that with the tools that people have today guiding them away from that sound (even if technically you should be able to do it even more) and the future doesn't look so bright.
Just has me wondering. Has someone tried to do it in the last five years? I'd love to hear someone attempt to go all in with it in 2014. It'd have to be waaaaaay under the radar of course. Though techinically someone like Kanye might be able to afford to get away with it. Man that would be interesting. Like if Ye did some shit like that and then pressed the point on the creativity involved vs the cost factor. That'd be great.
1. "Edan in the place..." In response to Reply # 0
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2. "only ye can squash this" In response to Reply # 0
"will"? it did many years ago. unless you consider el-p's work that. i dont, but its derivative of PE
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12. "Grey Album, you mean?" In response to Reply # 11
>If it's out there with enough momentum it reaches the rights >holders, cease and desist letters will be sent out. > >You know what's crazy though (tangential) Dangermouse's White >Album. > >█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄â–â–ƒ >Big PEMFin H & z's >"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 >thing, a musician." � Miles > >"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."
------------------------- “Floyd Mayweather should be taking fights up to 157 or 160 pounds...His frame can hold the weight..it's not even a lot of weight....Go to the gym and lift weights man..lol.”-- Warren Coolidge
29. "RE: how much do you need to "sell" to get sued for sample usage???" In response to Reply # 5
0...
We got sued for a mixtape track.. that someone ELSE white labeled from Just Blaze playing it on Shade 45
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14. "i thought blood on the leaves was a modern version of that concept " In response to Reply # 0
that form of sampling is a lost art. i remember reading a interview with hank shocklee who said, PE would look at their tracks as a band playing, so you need drums, a bassline, a horn line and so on...with the sample laws its impossible to do that now with samples
but i use blood on the leaves as an example of this because kanye had the nina simone sample then added the horns from TNGT, i would love to see more beat makers or who ever take this approach, in adding extra sounds like a band that is jamming would...
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36. "you either need to listen to more music or do your homework" In response to Reply # 14
that's hardly new even in new era
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15. "RE: Will Wall of Sound Hip-Hop Sampling Be Lost?" In response to Reply # 0
I personally like the method Pretty Lights used w/ Color Map of the Sun. He basically hired session musicians, presented them with an open-ended concept, and let them jam out while recording everything live. Afterward, map the 'samples' out to pads/keys and get busy.
I never understood why more producers don't do this.
most producers dont have access to session musicians nor have the cost to do it
plus ALOT of producers and beat makers dont understand how music is made, how songs are built and stuff of that nature. for decades the myth behind "beat making" was a sampler and a record.
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18. "RE: cost and access " In response to Reply # 17
>most producers dont have access to session musicians nor have >the cost to do it > >plus ALOT of producers and beat makers dont understand how >music is made, how songs are built and stuff of that nature. >for decades the myth behind "beat making" was a sampler and a >record.
I figured we were talking specifically about successful/commercially viable producers such as a Kanye or Dre type etc.
Indi producers still rely heavily on samples as far as I can tell.
19. "even with that is comes to cost " In response to Reply # 18
why waste the money in studio time and session costs to make music it harder and harder to see a return on that money. are cats still demand six figure a track?
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the dubsteppy wobble bass synths and punchy drums kinda make his music unlistenable for me, but the way he made totally authentic sounding original "soul samples" is pretty amazing - I wish more producers would try to do that (who don't make EDM-ish music)
28. "its not the same." In response to Reply # 15 Sat Dec-07-13 09:35 AM by Jon
unless you have access to all the various different recording studios and equipment from past eras, and have experts on the techniques of every possible era you'd like to dip your brush in, the shit will not be anything close to the same.
and let's say you have all of the above (virtually impossible, given the wide array of sound qualities, recording techniques, playing techniques, orchestration styles there have been), you're still only halfway to the charm and joy of sample-based hip hop, because the other part of it is the discovery, the dig, and the celebration of past works by creating new dimensions of their existence.
21. "It came out in 2000 but The Avalanches - Since I Left You" In response to Reply # 0 Fri Dec-06-13 03:06 PM by ChiefRocka
is the last album I can think of that really had that "wall of sound" sampling. They supposedly used 3,200 samples on that album.
And no it's not a strictly hip-hop album but it has a ton of hip-hop influences and sounds on it (and directly samples hip-hop songs) and it's an extremely dope album.
25. "many could, few would" In response to Reply # 24
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32. "RE: Will Wall of Sound Hip-Hop Sampling Be Lost?" In response to Reply # 0
Cost is so prohibitive..
one sample clearance could be costly... but like 6? 8? for one song..
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
34. "the cost aspect of it isn't even the most prohibitive part" In response to Reply # 0
but it makes for a great excuse the reason why it won't come back is because the shit is hard to do when it comes to sampling, it tends to come raging back when people hop on a trend that's easy to do (sped up samps, sparse vocal samps over terrible drum loops, etc) anything involved, like high level chopping, isn't something that will interest anyone in the industry because it's not easily reproduced enough to be a commodity technically you could get around the cost thing by hiring musicians to play short runs and sample those to get the same effect from all different sources, but why do that when you can just pitch down a grunt and throw some light ass snare over it repeatedly?
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
37. "RE: the cost aspect of it isn't even the most prohibitive part" In response to Reply # 34
nah man shit is expensive.. the clearance side and what you lose in publishing
My song on Freeway' "Free At Last" (last project on def jam) was a 30k master clearance.. AND 60% publishing of the song. That is one sample
If you have like a 3-500k budget for your album of 10 songs thats already 300k in sample master clearance. Then there is a publishing side to clear and paying to producer... mixing mastering.. artwork etc..
Theoretically someone like Jay or Ye could afford it. But they know they are also giving up passive income on a hit for the rest of their life..
Publishing is one of the most important revenue streams in your career. Especially with a hit.
When I talk to the older heads some haven't seen a dime off of their more famous records because they contained like a .2 second sample of something like an "oww" that is still in legal battles.
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
38. "none of that refutes my point but thanks for the PSA we already knew" In response to Reply # 37
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35. "RE: Will Wall of Sound Hip-Hop Sampling Be Lost?" In response to Reply # 0
I've seen that people frame this progression as something like 'sampling became too expensive to do so people started using drum machines and synthesizers again'.
That is a sound logical argument....but I just don't think it's true. The move away from sampling in hip hop production was an aesthetic thing....not one out of necessity. Even IF someone could afford to sample 9 or 10 different songs to make a bomb squad-type collage....that stuff will not sound good in mega-clubs with big bins. Not enough frequency isolation. Hip hop moved away from sampling dusty records because it became popular. Popular music has to sound good in mega-clubs.
To answer the question though....Kutiman's music falls under this category. And it's another part of his concept that makes it so brilliant. He found a way to do it that both avoids the cost of sampling while also re-enforcing the very concept of sampling.
It's like 'The Blair Witch Project'. The artist finds a way to integrate the limitations of their resources into the concept of their project. "We can't afford an expensive camera? Okay....we'll adapt the concept so that the story calls for the film to be shot with a cheap camera." This is the essence of the motivation behind hip hop sampling production to begin with....'we can't afford or learn to play instruments or have access to recording studios? Ok, we'll adapt the concept to fit the resources that are available to us.' And Kutiman's method is a re-imagining of that. Can't afford samples anymore? Ok, take samples from anonymous, unknown sources that can't/won't pursue legal action......and make THAT the concept of the project.
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