"Did Common mess up his legacy with UMC and The Dreamer?"
This question was sparked because someone was clowned for naming Common in their top 5 in GD. I kind of agreed it was clown worthy but then I remembered that Common was my favorite MC for over a decade (starting with Resurrection).
I hear talks of him doing a new LP and I kind of cringe more than get excited about it.
I can't help but think if ole boy had retired by Finding Forever folks wouldn't be challenging his status as one of the greats.
Thoughts anyone?
********** "naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu
But, to the OP's point, I think that UMC really shook half his fan base. Like, even Common fans who hated Electric Circus could at least look at it and say "OK the dude has one major blemish in his discography, otherwise he's been top notch almost his whole career". But UMC was so forced, so corny, so fucking BAD that I think half his fan base will never look at him the same again.
And that is unfortunate because I, like you guys, consider the run from Resurrection through Be to be one of the best runs in hiphop history, specifically on the lyrical tip. I think from like 1994 - 2000 he was the best spitter in the game bar none. Just my opinion but I just loved his style during that time.
So yea ... I think UMC is the worst thing that happened to him. Cause The Dreamer...is really an excellent album, but half of his fan base just kinda still says "mehhhh", and I think a lot of that has to do with UMC. Had UMC never been released, I think a lot of that 50% would look at The Dreamer quite differently..
8. "Yea. And that's totally understandable." In response to Reply # 5
It's hard to look at the guy the same when he drops that kind of a mess.
But I definitely urge you to give it another shot, and try to just judge it on its own merits, cause I think it really is good. It has a few "meh" moments but overall I think it was a return to form. "Gold" comes to mind as an absolute standout.
Com definitely had one of the best runs from Resurrection to LWFC.
Not sure I would say he was the best 'spitter' that entire time but when taking everything into account, he probably was the most consistent and is right there with Kast as having the best 4 albums in that time frame.
EC did hurt him a bit in my opinion. I know some people loved it but it was the moment where I felt that he became a follower. It was like he went in trying to make his Stankonia and it just didn't come off natural to me.
He came back pretty strong with Be but in retrospect, I think that album benefited a lot from coming after EC and from Kanyes success. Not a bad album by any means and I can still rock with it, but I don't think it's as good as his Resurrection-LWFC run at all.
Be, Finding Forever, and The Dreamer/The Believer are a slow decline but still a decent end of career run. UMC was just an embarrassment.
If UMC had just been a 5 song EP w/the neptunes like it has supposed to be originally no one would talk about this.
The songs Com did w/Pharrell were DOPE, add the song w/Cee-Lo and it's a damn good ep. Making it an album and dropping it in the dead of winter killed it.
Oh Pharrell being an IRobot in the UMC video didn't help either.
Ashley Ayers Member since Dec 12th 2009 12331 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 03:20 PM
47. "Then that 50% gotta stfu when we discuss Common." In response to Reply # 2
People kill me thinking their opinion on some shit matters when they don't even listen to it.
Even still, droppin' weaker shit later in the career doesn't mean a person didn't spit crazy at one point. We can all agree that Common had a great run. He's one of the best to ever do it. Point blank, period.
3. "I gave EC a pass because I don't blame artist for experimenting" In response to Reply # 1
I thought it was over for Common by the Believer because it seemed like he tried to get that old thing back after UMC and he couldn't muster it up. It felt forced and faked. Like he lost that Mojo.
I love dude for his old work but I sincerely don't believe he can rap anymore.
********** "naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu
9. "RE: I gave EC a pass because I don't blame artist for experimenting" In response to Reply # 3
>I thought it was over for Common by the Believer because it >seemed like he tried to get that old thing back after UMC and >he couldn't muster it up. It felt forced and faked. Like he >lost that Mojo.
This is what I can understand and see. "mojo" is a good word for it. Especially in the 1994-2000 period I talked about above, he had some kind of swag/mojo that I don't think can be replicated. He definitely lost it to some extent, which I think is a product of both UMC and his age, I think it just naturally happens as MCs get older. JayZ is another example.
>I love dude for his old work but I sincerely don't believe he >can rap anymore.
But, see, I definitely think he can still spit. It's just a lot of times there's *something* missing in the delivery, the confidence, something. But he still spits.
14. "There were trying to clown me, here is my response: " In response to Reply # 0
Common is in my top 5. Actually he is number 4 in my top which goes as follows (I was born in '86, so I keep the 80s out of my mouth. If I can't remember what the environment was like at the time of the releases of their classic albums and songs, I don't even pretend to know their legacy even if I have thoroughly listened)
Nas Jigga Ghostface Killah Common Pun/Pac/Ice Cube
Now here is my case for Common being in my top 5
Not many rappers have a better 3 album run than Resurrection, One day..., and LWFC. I consider two of those albums classic. Then he made BE in 2005. Not many rappers have made albums as good as BE that late in their rap careers. That in itself is an amazing feat in my eyes...that longevity to make a BE 10+ years into your career.
He then has a nice catalogue of pretty good albums (Can I Borrow, EC, FF)
I do think UMC and The Dreamer are pretty much wack, but at this point of his career his legacy is already cemented. A 13 year run of making good to classic rap albums is simply not paralleled by 95% of rappers. Image and content and whatever other problems niggas may have with Common aside.
All this on top of the fact that his lyricism from a poetic standpoint and his lyrical dexterity are top notch.
Ashley Ayers Member since Dec 12th 2009 12331 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 03:27 PM
48. "RE: Even if you love EC" In response to Reply # 21
>You should be able to understand people not digging it. > >Lets not be ridiculous now. > >As you can tell by my avy, I love Neil Young but if someone >said they didn't like him, I would understand.
On the same token, for those who don't dig it, they *should* be able to understand why it's nice. The lyrics are still good even if you don't like the music. Muhfuckas just gotta say it's too different for them and gtfoh.
54. "no." In response to Reply # 21 Wed Nov-28-12 06:40 PM by astralblak
most heads went off the look of the Come Close video, which coupled with it being a re-hashed/watered-down version/concept of The Light, folks didn't listen to the actual album
"Jimi was a rock star" and "I Got A Right Ta" were the only "weird" or cringe worthy songs on there.
Common was rapping his muthafucn ass off on the whole thing, and where 'Kast went deep Parliament with it on Stankonia, EC was on the Jimi end of the spectrum.
any album with Soul Power, I Am Music, Between Me You & Liberation, Star 69, and Aquarius can not be wack on any level. Your ears are fucked up if you think other wise
60. "My biggest problem with EC is I saw it being two steps behind 3000." In response to Reply # 54
Bad enough you dating his ole broad now you following up on Andre 3000s jimi Hendrix astrology spaced out funk phase a few years after 3000 already been there?
>most heads went off the look of the Come Close video, which >coupled with it being a re-hashed/watered-down version/concept >of The Light, folks didn't listen to the actual album > >"Jimi was a rock star" and "I Got A Right Ta" were the only >"weird" or cringe worthy songs on there. > >Common was rapping his muthafucn ass off on the whole thing, >and where 'Kast went deep Parliament with it on Stankonia, EC >was on the Jimi end of the spectrum. > >any album with Soul Power, I Am Music, Between Me You & >Liberation, Star 69, and Aquarius can not be wack on any >level. Your ears are fucked up if you think other wise
********** "naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu
22. "UMC kinda saved EC" In response to Reply # 17
HA! i mean, i like EC - as someone else said here, cant front on artists for being creative. but for the folks who DIDN'T get it, umc EASILY takes the bottom spot, so it actually saves us from having to make a lot of defense for EC (that it shouldn't even really need in the first place)
25. "RE: Did Common mess up his legacy with UMC and The Dreamer?" In response to Reply # 0
>This question was sparked because someone was clowned for >naming Common in their top 5 in GD. I kind of agreed it was >clown worthy but then I remembered that Common was my favorite >MC for over a decade (starting with Resurrection).
He and Nas changed the way I viewed rap in the 90's. In fact, they made me wanna rap, so I did. Patterned myself after the two. As far as UMC..I hated that sh*t. The Dreamer was okay...u can tell he was showin' his age on it, though.
It takes all kinds to make up a world, son. -My pops
37. "What Common can do to "resurrect" his greatness" In response to Reply # 33
On the next album, he should (in my opinion) pull together all of his best producers from all his dope albums and make a solid opus (N.O. ID, Twilite Tone, The Soulquarians, J Dilla, Karriem Riggins, Kanye West). I say J Dilla of course because Com can holla at Ma Dukes for a JD beat and the fact that Common always bring it over a Dilla beat. I kow Com reads these posts, so it wouldn't be cool for me to go in on him about how weak some of his more recent stuff has been.
If he works with all those producers that I suggested on his new album..he'll be cool.
he should focus on acting more and limit himself to guest appearances until he has something worthwhile to talk about. He's going thru the motions and it's painfully obvious.
40. "Just listened to E=MC2 the other day..." In response to Reply # 37 Wed Nov-28-12 12:43 PM by Brew
fuckin right he always brought it over Dilla shit. He wrecked that song.
But, I think at this point, he'll never get back to the level he was at. No matter if UMC ever happened or not, his age and current status (Hollywood/rich) wouldn't allow him to be the hungry, up and coming spitter he was in the mid-to-late 90s/early 2000s. It's just science, man. JayZ is going thru the same shit right now. No matter who you pair them with, neither will regain what they had. Credit to both of them for solid catalogues tho and releasing good-to-great albums so late in their careers.
#1 I never understand people who claim to be fans of someone say "he should quit"....I mean, wouldn't we all like to see him come correct??
Com is in my top 5 or so...I want him to keep making music. Its possible to have a long career in rap if you do it right (see De La and The Roots)
#2 Dude needs to switch the format up. I dug most of The Dreamer (there are some NICE tracks on there)...but it came off to me as essentially Be part 3 (FF being part 2)
What should that format be? I don't know.
Release 2 or 3 eps in 2013, rather than an album??
Go concept to force him to tighten up the lyrics??
Do a one producer thing...but someone he hasnt worked with yet who might push him?
Something Dilla related of course wouldn't be a bad look at all.
I don't know.
People thought Nas was done too, did anyone really expect Life is Good to be an AOTY contender??
41. "No, it's understood that his time has passed." In response to Reply # 0 Wed Nov-28-12 12:46 PM by Teknontheou
That happens with all but a handful of rappers. Jay and maybe 3000 (and Nas) are the only classic rappers who are still kind of being judged on their current output. Everyone else is understood to have a pass to put out subpar music once their time has passed.
51. "What do Andre 3000, Jay-z and Nas have that Common hasn't shown?" In response to Reply # 0
The ability to mature get older and rich and still put out heartfelt lyrics like a hungry MC. A common resurrection would require him to put out some personal, even drake like, material which he hasn't shown capacity to do in a minute.
********** "naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu
this fool said jay-Z. nigga who made a "concept" dope dealing album in his late 30s, being a multi-millionaire, and who just recently, as in only Watch The Throne recently, began to explore image, choices and social justice, something Com been doing his whole career.
61. "Wait....what? Jay-Z and 3000? You smoking tea bags? " In response to Reply # 51
>The ability to mature get older and rich and still put out >heartfelt lyrics like a hungry MC. A common resurrection >would require him to put out some personal, even drake like, >material which he hasn't shown capacity to do in a minute.
I'm a Jay fan and must admit that Jay has put out sugary lyrics for almost a decade now
I figure I would catch heat for throwing Jay-Z into the mix. I went back and listened to the personal tracks from Common on The Dreamer/The Believer. Lovin' I Lost and Windows right? I wasn't sure because those are pretty generic ex-girl/daughter love tracks and I am not sure if you are referring to something else. If so I found both incredibly boring.
IMHOP Jay's Glory is waaay more heartfelt and an emotional tribute to his daughter than Windows. Same with Nas' tribute. I would also say that Andre 3000 and Nas's ode's to their exes were more intimate and personal. Just my opinion.
I am not arguing catalog but I am talk about who is doing it TODAY and when you compare NAS, Jay-Z, Andre 3000 and Common today by latest release, Common is the one who has seemed to have lost his touch and to be phoning it in.
********** "naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu
78. "You are literally a silly caricature of a hipster. " In response to Reply # 74
>I went back and listened to the personal tracks from Common on >The Dreamer/The Believer. Lovin' I Lost and Windows right? I >wasn't sure because those are pretty generic ex-girl/daughter >love tracks and I am not sure if you are referring to >something else. If so I found both incredibly boring.
>IMHOP Jay's Glory is waaay more heartfelt and an emotional >tribute to his daughter than Windows.
Glory is one of the most contrived songs in the history of the galaxy. It was made right after him and his wife decided to buy the floor at the UCLA hospital and put in the patent application on the name. Fuck outtahere
>Same with Nas' tribute. >I would also say that Andre 3000 and Nas's ode's to their >exes were more intimate and personal. Just my opinion.
Andre 3000 is a gilette model and the Love Below is his last album. That was millions of years ago, fuck you talking about
>I am not arguing catalog but I am talk about who is doing it >TODAY and when you compare NAS, Jay-Z, Andre 3000 and Common >today by latest release, Common is the one who has seemed to >have lost his touch and to be phoning it in.
No, you're wrong. Nas made a great album after a run of mediocre ones.
Jay just released (with Kanye) one of the most insincere albums ever
57. "He just gets too corny too often now and I cringe" In response to Reply # 0
His verse on "The Morning" was very cringe-worthy in parts, I shouldn't have to feel that way when listening to get MC. I liked a lot of "The Dreamer/The Believer" but even that had some cringe moments. I feel like either he lost his passion for pushing himself intellectually and musically or decided it's easier to make himself a man of the people in superficial/sloganeering way. I couldn't imagine him making a songs like "A Song For Assata" or "Between Me, You & Liberation" or at least half as good. Kanye and him can make some great songs but I think also Kanye pushed him off the poet tip and got him building a marketable persona that could jump on a track with The Jonas Brothers or do Gap commercials.
58. "EC was a huge dissappointment" In response to Reply # 0
but when he started workin with kanye, i just stopped caring. BE has some tracks but it just seemed like he kinda gave up after failing at trying some shit.
to me, there was some real hope for a minute that the soulquarians and others around that time were gonna make some real innovative and momentous records more than they ended up doing.. and BE just seemed like a cowawrdly retreat into safeness to me. its just not that interesting.
plus, even as someone who doesnt care much about "selling out" that fuckin COKE commercial with maya was a huge shit stain on my respect for dude:
59. "He was always corny at heart, but he used to temper it with raw skill" In response to Reply # 0
But then his acting career started to take off. That split his focus, got him more comfortable, made him think about his image more, he basically embraced Hollywood, and the corniness finally won the battle, and swallowed Common Sense whole.
76. "I don't know how you can say complaining about the Drake ish" In response to Reply # 62
is okay but the other stuff is off limits.
The kanye diss is wack to me but because persona is so important to an MC, the Gap Commercials, Sesame Street Songs, Veganism, PETA spokesman role all make it very difficult for you to credibly drop a track like "Sweet".
********** "naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu
77. "Well, for the record, I liked FF and bumped it for a while..." In response to Reply # 75
but by Common's standards, it was absolutely subpar. It was basically a remake of Be...similar structuring, similar song themes, etc.
But again, I liked it, so no use belaboring the point. My point was just that by Common's lofty standards, the album didn't live up to his better work.
79. "o so we using double standards? " In response to Reply # 77 Thu Nov-29-12 01:38 PM by Orbit_Established
>but by Common's standards, it was absolutely subpar. It was >basically a remake of Be...similar structuring, similar song >themes, etc.
Yeah, note how Common is the only one to get this critique.
I mean, a lot of Jay albums have a similar sound too, I never heard this critique of Jay nearly as much as I did Be and FF
> >But again, I liked it, so no use belaboring the point. My >point was just that by Common's lofty standards, the album >didn't live up to his better work.
So Finding Forever was bad by Common's standards, but it was far better than Kingdom Come by objective standards?
Don't even agree with that (I think Finding Forever was good by any standards)
80. "I don't know why I bother with you, but..." In response to Reply # 79
>Yeah, note how Common is the only one to get this critique.
Sure...maybe he is, but isn't that a good thing? As in, doesn't that say more about the quality of his other output than it does about this album? Yes, it's good, but the word "subpar" was used when I was comparing it against his other albums. Maybe you're just misunderstanding the English language?
>I mean, a lot of Jay albums have a similar sound too, I never >heard this critique of Jay nearly as much as I did Be and FF
I just said that Kingdom Come was subpar...maybe you have a reading comprehension problem?
>So Finding Forever was bad by Common's standards, but it was >far better than Kingdom Come by objective standards?
I never said that.
>Don't even agree with that (I think Finding Forever was good >by any standards"
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