A lotta y'all got it fucked up with all the craziness but there's a reason the Wu never recovered from his descent into addiction, imprisonment, & eventually death.

You think Russell Jones was just up there fuckin' around & doing dumb shit?

But yet he was the focal point onstage for the greatest collective of MCs in rap history?

And any album he actually put his name on & owned during his life happened to be on point?

C'mon baby baby c'mon baby baby C'MOOOON.

Dude was an essential ingredient & there truly was no father to his style.

Watch the way he carries this Wu show in '97 in Amsterdam (well, he and Meth, who is a true beast onstage even if his albums have not measured up to that).

I don't know where GZA, Deck, Ghost, or Rae were for this one.

But then again it was the Wu.........in Amsterdam.

Yet somehow the Dirt Dog rocked this club in coherence.

You can start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCuGqaTIpQ4&feature=related

But that's the 3rd out of 5 from some Dutch live special they were doing on the Wu at the time (whut up, Nic!).

But really, the whole show is worth watching:
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H783_6WbWH0&feature=related
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYZTqTAzZ0&feature=related
3) (above)
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01h5ldc4vOA&feature=related
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9S2X_5ChpQ&feature=related

I miss this dude.

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but people who hate on waka or lil b need to be shown for hypocrites for liking a rapper who got over on his energy and personality and didn't even write his own lyrics.

>but people who hate on waka or lil b need to be shown for
>hypocrites for liking a rapper who got over on his energy and
>personality and didn't even write his own lyrics.

It's not what you do, but how you do it. Yeah, Dirty got over on his energy and personality, but he did it a Hell of a lot better than Waka and Lil' B.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

just pointing out that hypocrites are willing to make exceptions for east coast rappers from the 90s while whining about contemporary acts with similar roles.

but their music sucks. and his didn't.

how can it be wrong? it's my opinion, based on my personal taste in music.

i mean how many time can you little girls whine like bitches about "east coast bias" and all that shit

grow the fuck up you crying baby

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

but "era" bias. Like, the only reason we would like Ol' Dirty is because he came out (and was a success) in the '90s, the last age where you could be popular without being ever conventional. The whole "East Coast bias" thing is a part of it, but not all of it. It's rubbish anyway.

if Kaka Flocka Flame was from NYC... or rather, if he remained in NYC, and came out as a rapper under say, 50 Cent's wing, he'd still be rather flat in his attempt to be the new age "M.O.P."-type rapper. If he was from LA, and did the same, we'd be looking at him like "WTF".

and well, Lil B... dude is just weird. I don't expect cats that have been listening to rap forever to like dude.

>It's not what you do, but how you do it. Yeah, Dirty got over
>on his energy and personality, but he did it a Hell of a lot
>better than Waka and Lil' B.

Not really....he just gets a pass for doing it in the midst of a purist approved, legendary rap group as opposed to some youtube self-promotion or Gucci Mane affiliation.

I'm a fan of all 3, and I don't deny ODB is the originator, but I think he has a point on the hypocrisy.

Dirty had an energy and charisma that them niggas will never even
GLIMPSE in their lifetime. Dirty had a STYLE all his own. Them cats
don't even had definitive styles. They just saying shit on records.
Yeah they exploit retardation but retardation is not their creation lol.
That shit ain't nothing new what they doing. They just running with
retardation. Fuck outta here calling someone a hypocrite for seeing
the sheer STAR POWER of OBD and shitting on those two other niggas.

if lil b had invented a genre of music, invented a glossary of slang, invented an entire method of dancing, and invented his own style of internet marketing...only THEN we could say he had a "definitive style."

The nigga has done some innovative shit. I'm not denying that.
That's all you pointed out here though. The style and charisma is not
seeing OBD on any level. I'll engage though.

>invented a genre of music,

Ask yourself what this "genre of "entails. Based music is the art of
not thinking about what you're saying if you want to even call that an
art. This is by his own admission. This is not a style. This is
pure laziness."
There's a reason people can recite the ENTIRE Brooklyn Zoo song.
Charisma and style bruh. Unique delivery. Lil B lacks it. Don't
get me wrong I was actually riding for this cat at one point but he
ain't seeing OBD.

>invented a glossary of slang

Inventing a glossary is language bruh. Urban dicionary>>> OBD?
Furthermore he doesn't deliver this slang in any unique way. I'm
cookin'. I say the shit the same way he does. Nothing special about
it. It's not like Snoop coming in the came with "Fo shizzle my
nizzle". That was style. Hell Trey Songz saying Yuuuup has more style
than Lil B and his "glossary of slang"

>invented an entire method of dancing,

I can't listen to his dancing. We talkin bout music. But I will give
you that as part of his style though. That's all he really truly has
in the way of style and it isn't even concerning his actual music.

>invented his own style of internet marketing

Oh right that makes him a musical genius! Jimmy Iovine is killin all
these niggas! I can't listen to his marketing either. We talkin
about style here my nigga.

>and didn't even write his own lyrics.

he didn't write SOME of his own lyrics.

But yeah.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

on stage. And this was after HOURS of mostly bullshit opening acts (I don't think I'd be exaggerating if I said there were 11 of them, and only two or three were any good), so the crowd was fed up and ready to go. But him (and a little of Method Man) kept the crowd in the game, and satisfied, even though they only got to do six songs.

So yeah, props to dude. He was ill as fuck on the stage and on the mic.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

fuck you do get drunk and start reminiscing over Dirty again? Lol. Remember this, my dude?
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2489490&mesg_id=2489490&listing_type=search

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

>fuck you do get drunk and start reminiscing over Dirty again?
> Lol. Remember this, my dude?
>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2489490&mesg_id=2489490&listing_type=search

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but u taking it too far. The greatest collective of MC's in history, lol, u can suck a fat baby's dick.

you're probably not an expert on legendary collectives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv_d4fWZpB4

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

>but u taking it too far. The greatest collective of MC's in
>history, lol, u can suck a fat baby's dick.

And Juice Crew didn't really rock with each other like that.

>but u taking it too far. The greatest collective of MC's in
>history, lol, u can suck a fat baby's dick.

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talent wise, Freestyle Fellowship/Project Blowed crew are much better... pretty much can't think of any crew of MCs seeing them...

Wu Tang still amazing though.. so its not far fetched to consider them the best...

i'm done.

>talent wise, Freestyle Fellowship/Project Blowed crew are
>much better... pretty much can't think of any crew of MCs
>seeing them...
>
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m69opped061qa9yvvo1_500.gif

those cats came out tight and then what?

more hype than overall substance.they had a moment in time and to me they matter but they ain't seeing some groups and alot of that is that they choked. 93-97 they were on the pulse and there after they haven't nearly been half that interesting imo and though they have had moments solo, they didn't even half of that "IT" they had out imo.

a would've,could've,should've act if there ever was one

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>a would've,could've,should've act if there ever was one

Enter the 36, Wu-Tang Forever, Return to the 36, Liquid Swords, Ironman, Tical, Cuban Linx, Supreme Clientele, Fishscale, and a handful of others would like to have a word with you. I'll be patiently waiting for you to name any group in rap that put out THAT many classics or near-classics.

--

dude acted like they dropped "36 Chambers" and then disappeared like Junior Mafia or some shit.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

*snickers*

The rest of them niggas, not so much

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

I guess we can keep moving the goalposts all day long, but I thought we were supposed to be talking about Wu's strength as a collective. They're stronger than their weakest links, contrary to the old saying, and always have been.

--

i can name several groups with two or more classics. PE, De La, Gang Starr, Tribe, OutKast, etc...

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

wu-tang wasn't a group in the same way tribe was. they were more like boot camp or dungeon fam or cash money.

for the Boot Camp Clik or for the individual groups that made the albums?

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

Enta Da Stage is a classic album by Black Moon from the Boot Camp Click.

because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah Skeltah). OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to make the Wu greater than they are. Lump all of the solos in as Wu albums

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

>OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to
>make the Wu greater than they are.

Wu-Tang forever

>Lump all of the solos in as
>Wu albums

No but I'll lump them in as albums by memberS (emphasis on the S) of the Wu Tang Clan which while featuring one MC prominently still had other Wu Tang members all the hell over it.

You've got your boxes you're trying wrap around them but the way they did it doesn't quite match your boxes.

>because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it
>was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah
>Skeltah).

All those Wu albums had the Wu logo all over it, see my avatar for instance

>>OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to
>>make the Wu greater than they are.
>
>Wu-Tang forever

all good things come to an end

>
>>Lump all of the solos in as
>>Wu albums
>
>No but I'll lump them in as albums by memberS (emphasis on the
>S) of the Wu Tang Clan which while featuring one MC
>prominently still had other Wu Tang members all the hell over
>it.

so now we're admitting that the "featured mc" couldn't hold said album down for dolo, right?

>
>You've got your boxes you're trying wrap around them but the
>way they did it doesn't quite match your boxes.

so the Wu get a special set of rules huh?

>
>>because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it
>>was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah
>>Skeltah).
>
>All those Wu albums had the Wu logo all over it, see my avatar
>for instance

it's either a solo album or a Wu album. can't be both

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

>>>OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to
>>>make the Wu greater than they are.
>>
>>Wu-Tang forever
>
>all good things come to an end

Everything you have seen has always been and always will what be. With regard to whom or what, its got to be.



>>You've got your boxes you're trying wrap around them but the
>>way they did it doesn't quite match your boxes.
>
>so the Wu get a special set of rules huh?

What's your fixation on rules are you the govt?


>>
>>>because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it
>>>was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah
>>>Skeltah).
>>
>>All those Wu albums had the Wu logo all over it, see my
>avatar
>>for instance
>
>it's either a solo album or a Wu album. can't be both

Well actually it can be both. That's a false dichotomy. Politicians use this kind of mindtrick a lot, look it up in your Funk and Wagnals

And here I mean the early ones of course. They're different because they were produced (entirely or largely) by RZA, and most if not all of the guests were other Wu members. They felt like a product of the same group, even though they had one MC's name on the cover. The early Wu solos are basically extensions of the Clan catalog to me. Later stuff like "Nigga Please," most of Meth's post-"Tical" shit, etc. don't count the same way - they are more conventional solo releases with fewer Wu cameos, less or no RZA production, a deliberately different and more eclectic aesthetic, and so on.

--

>And here I mean the early ones of course. They're different
>because they were produced (entirely or largely) by RZA, and
>most if not all of the guests were other Wu members. They
>felt like a product of the same group, even though they had
>one MC's name on the cover. The early Wu solos are basically
>extensions of the Clan catalog to me. Later stuff like "Nigga
>Please," most of Meth's post-"Tical" shit, etc. don't count
>the same way - they are more conventional solo releases with
>fewer Wu cameos, less or no RZA production, a deliberately
>different and more eclectic aesthetic, and so on.

are Wu albums with one MC being featured, produced by The RZA (I think there might be five tracks over the course of all five of them total not done by him & they're done by one of his understudies like True Master or 4th Disciple), which was kind of a byproduct of having a collective of that size.

They're basically just different serial films done by the same director with the same ensemble cast.

I mean in talking about Liquid Swords RZA laughingly said 'GZA heard his album when it was done'.

Cuban Linx featured Ghost as a co-star with every other Wu MC at least appearing once, most more then once & even had songs on it Rae didn't appear on.

After the double-album the next phase came in letting each member "spread their wings" & the next wave was the result (for better or in many cases for worse) of that.

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it's just not that commonly done. But I've always regarded all of those as being Wu-Tang albums.

--

>And here I mean the early ones of course. They're different
>because they were produced (entirely or largely) by RZA, and
>most if not all of the guests were other Wu members. They
>felt like a product of the same group, even though they had
>one MC's name on the cover. The early Wu solos are basically
>extensions of the Clan catalog to me. Later stuff like "Nigga
>Please," most of Meth's post-"Tical" shit, etc. don't count
>the same way - they are more conventional solo releases with
>fewer Wu cameos, less or no RZA production, a deliberately
>different and more eclectic aesthetic, and so on.

so can we agree that for the most part, the Wu members aren't able to carry a solo LP?

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

>so can we agree that for the most part, the Wu members aren't
>able to carry a solo LP?

Yes - but so what? Where have we gotten or where are we going, relative to where we started?

--

>The rest of them niggas, not so much

and a bunch of dope albums so miss me with all of that.

RZA's production is what made the Wu what they were. When his sound died out, so did the Wu. 93-97 was great because of RZA. Ghost and Dirty are the only ones to release high caliber material post 97.

>>The rest of them niggas, not so much
>
>and a bunch of dope albums so miss me with all of that.

dope from 93-97, right? if so i agree. post 97, you can miss me with that

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

a couple of important albums for there time and a 2-3 legit talents there that actually somewhat counted and even then they still come up short.

Wu ain't that deep.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

but they ain't seen like that and depending on the side of the country you are in that speaks directly to that. some parts of the country they are bigger and in some others they ain't seeing Bones thugs and Harmony so miss me with the Generalizing sweep ain't got it like that.

you talking like they had a NWA break off of Careers? SILENCE and Crickets 101 and big time there Partna!

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>the country you are in that speaks directly to that. some
>parts of the country they are bigger and in some others they
>ain't seeing Bones thugs and Harmony so miss me with the
>Generalizing sweep ain't got it like that.

You don't have to love 'em like I do but if you really can't understand their importance & impact in multiple areas enough to admit they're in the conversation, well then we ain't gonna have much to talk about when it comes to the history of hip-hop music so let's just save each other the time.

j.�
------------
i want that purple stuff.

and yet still whatever head doesn't admit they're at least on the short list for all-time is getting the side-eye from me as a hip-hop fan, they also can still drop some heat nearly twenty years later (like Chamber Music or OB4CL2 from just last year) even if for a variety of reasons (including the demise of this thread's subject) it will never be the same as it was during the initial RZA-helmed "five-year plan" (which is a better run during that period than any group has ever had).

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i never gave his antics a pass, nor his music

*
*
*

>i never gave his antics a pass, nor his music

https://soundcloud.com/matt-koelling-666011203

www.somethinginthewudder.com

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https://www.facebook.com/matt.koelling.96

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*
*
*

should go ahead and try a write a rap emulating it.


No rapper to my knowledge since Dirty came on, has been able to do it and nobody probably ever will.

And not only because of style, delivery, and stage performance, but cause of his lyrics as well. Show me the evidence that he didn't wriye his rhymes and I'll let that one go, but he was fucn great IMO and Nigga Please was a good album

as his addiction got worse he began being so unfocused that people had to write for him. Gza & Pharrell come to mind.


but in the early days he would sometimes do old 'All In Together Now' routines on his solo work where he'd spit a Gza verse that has already been recorded.


but he penned the majority of the rhymes that belong in the ODB canon.

and aside from "Damage" (and where it was recycled elsewhere on the album) I couldn't imagine anyone else writing those lyrics

_______________________________

ॐ शांति शांति शांति

i feel like i'm in the twilight zone

lmao

this dude spit 5% jargon in one song and bitch better have my money
in another on his only solo album entitled Nigga Please... and that's
legendary?

LMMFAO... this is why I love the lesson

*
*
*

okayplayer.


avy: our new album. you may just like it. listen for free online @ http://theyesyesyalls.com

http://twitter.com/shamelessplug
http://theyesyesyalls.com

clearly it's not body of work nor quality/quantity

at least not in this post

*
*
*

>clearly it's not body of work nor quality/quantity
>

<----

Larry Otis!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeM89CITvMc

and his free new singles, produced by Tough Junkie!
http://soundcloud.com/toughjunkie/sets/larry-otis-leaks

dies, that pretty much equates to legend... I disagree. I get this post--> traditional
east coast heads who ride for anything east coast. Ain't nothing
legendary about ODB. It's an emotionally driven post about an at BEST
average rapper in a legendary Crew. What possibly makes ODB legendary?
Exactly what did HE do?

*
*
*

I am merely pointing out that there is more than one criteria for being a legend.

But when you're a rapper who was an integral part of one of the most popular rap groups ever, released two completely unique and widely loved albums, and served as the subject of a string of now-famous urban legends about you doing things like rescuing children from burning buildings, not to mention you're other documented antics, and THEN you die early from the very same thing people claim helped make you great in the first place,
I'd say yeah,
you're a hip-hop legend.

<----

Larry Otis!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeM89CITvMc

and his free new singles, produced by Tough Junkie!
http://soundcloud.com/toughjunkie/sets/larry-otis-leaks

*
*
*

if you don't agree, that's peace, but you know U-God isn't nearly in the same class or held in the same regard as ODB. Not by fans or artists.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

don't mind, give me an example of another legendary artist that you'd
mirror ODB after... in terms of quality, artistry, and influence

*
*
*

cuz it's just that...my opinion. Your is that he is NOT and that's cool. We can coexist in here with differing opinions, man. My response was to you equating him with U-God for effect, when you gotta know they're not even close.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

yes. yes, he is. ugod. yeah. legend

Jordan!

>i feel like i'm in the twilight zone
>
>lmao
>
>this dude spit 5% jargon in one song and bitch better have my
>money
>in another on his only solo album entitled Nigga Please... and
>that's
>legendary?
>
>LMMFAO... this is why I love the lesson

I hate the Lesson (sometimes).

Ghostface and Rza

honorable mention Raekwon--> if someone argued on behalf of Rae I
really wouldn't disagree.

the rest of them were average, including Meth

*
*
*

>the rest of them were average, including Meth


avy: our new album. you may just like it. listen for free online @ http://theyesyesyalls.com

http://twitter.com/shamelessplug
http://theyesyesyalls.com

legendary as a collective unit... i don't think anybody denies that.
but if you're telling me that Meth is a legendary artist based on HIS
contribution to hip hop as a solo artist we might as well agree to disagree.

*
*
*

And trust me, I fucking hate it.

Method Man is a legend. I agree w/your comments on his catalog. But he's basically the only member of rap's hall of fame without a real marquee album. He's the exception to a lot of rap rules, sadly

----

https://weketchum.contently.com/

others in the legend club without a marquee or bona fide classic album, possibly including Pac & Eminem.

It also helps Meth's cause that he's one of the best live performers in the history of the genre and despite the album issue we discussed can still rock a crowd for the better part of a two-hour set on his own, with Red or with Wu (as I've seen him do in all those incarnations).