A lotta y'all got it fucked up with all the craziness but there's a reason the Wu never recovered from his descent into addiction, imprisonment, & eventually death.

You think Russell Jones was just up there fuckin' around & doing dumb shit?

But yet he was the focal point onstage for the greatest collective of MCs in rap history?

And any album he actually put his name on & owned during his life happened to be on point?

C'mon baby baby c'mon baby baby C'MOOOON.

Dude was an essential ingredient & there truly was no father to his style.

Watch the way he carries this Wu show in '97 in Amsterdam (well, he and Meth, who is a true beast onstage even if his albums have not measured up to that).

I don't know where GZA, Deck, Ghost, or Rae were for this one.

But then again it was the Wu.........in Amsterdam.

Yet somehow the Dirt Dog rocked this club in coherence.

You can start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCuGqaTIpQ4&feature=related

But that's the 3rd out of 5 from some Dutch live special they were doing on the Wu at the time (whut up, Nic!).

But really, the whole show is worth watching:
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H783_6WbWH0&feature=related
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYZTqTAzZ0&feature=related
3) (above)
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01h5ldc4vOA&feature=related
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9S2X_5ChpQ&feature=related

I miss this dude.

but people who hate on waka or lil b need to be shown for hypocrites for liking a rapper who got over on his energy and personality and didn't even write his own lyrics.

>but people who hate on waka or lil b need to be shown for
>hypocrites for liking a rapper who got over on his energy and
>personality and didn't even write his own lyrics.

It's not what you do, but how you do it. Yeah, Dirty got over on his energy and personality, but he did it a Hell of a lot better than Waka and Lil' B.

just pointing out that hypocrites are willing to make exceptions for east coast rappers from the 90s while whining about contemporary acts with similar roles.

but their music sucks. and his didn't.

how can it be wrong? it's my opinion, based on my personal taste in music.

i mean how many time can you little girls whine like bitches about "east coast bias" and all that shit

grow the fuck up you crying baby

but "era" bias. Like, the only reason we would like Ol' Dirty is because he came out (and was a success) in the '90s, the last age where you could be popular without being ever conventional. The whole "East Coast bias" thing is a part of it, but not all of it. It's rubbish anyway.

if Kaka Flocka Flame was from NYC... or rather, if he remained in NYC, and came out as a rapper under say, 50 Cent's wing, he'd still be rather flat in his attempt to be the new age "M.O.P."-type rapper. If he was from LA, and did the same, we'd be looking at him like "WTF".

and well, Lil B... dude is just weird. I don't expect cats that have been listening to rap forever to like dude.

>It's not what you do, but how you do it. Yeah, Dirty got over
>on his energy and personality, but he did it a Hell of a lot
>better than Waka and Lil' B.

Not really....he just gets a pass for doing it in the midst of a purist approved, legendary rap group as opposed to some youtube self-promotion or Gucci Mane affiliation.

I'm a fan of all 3, and I don't deny ODB is the originator, but I think he has a point on the hypocrisy.

Dirty had an energy and charisma that them niggas will never even
GLIMPSE in their lifetime. Dirty had a STYLE all his own. Them cats
don't even had definitive styles. They just saying shit on records.
Yeah they exploit retardation but retardation is not their creation lol.
That shit ain't nothing new what they doing. They just running with
retardation. Fuck outta here calling someone a hypocrite for seeing
the sheer STAR POWER of OBD and shitting on those two other niggas.

if lil b had invented a genre of music, invented a glossary of slang, invented an entire method of dancing, and invented his own style of internet marketing...only THEN we could say he had a "definitive style."

The nigga has done some innovative shit. I'm not denying that.
That's all you pointed out here though. The style and charisma is not
seeing OBD on any level. I'll engage though.

>invented a genre of music,

Ask yourself what this "genre of "entails. Based music is the art of
not thinking about what you're saying if you want to even call that an
art. This is by his own admission. This is not a style. This is
pure laziness."
There's a reason people can recite the ENTIRE Brooklyn Zoo song.
Charisma and style bruh. Unique delivery. Lil B lacks it. Don't
get me wrong I was actually riding for this cat at one point but he
ain't seeing OBD.

>invented a glossary of slang

Inventing a glossary is language bruh. Urban dicionary>>> OBD?
Furthermore he doesn't deliver this slang in any unique way. I'm
cookin'. I say the shit the same way he does. Nothing special about
it. It's not like Snoop coming in the came with "Fo shizzle my
nizzle". That was style. Hell Trey Songz saying Yuuuup has more style
than Lil B and his "glossary of slang"

>invented an entire method of dancing,

I can't listen to his dancing. We talkin bout music. But I will give
you that as part of his style though. That's all he really truly has
in the way of style and it isn't even concerning his actual music.

>invented his own style of internet marketing

Oh right that makes him a musical genius! Jimmy Iovine is killin all
these niggas! I can't listen to his marketing either. We talkin
about style here my nigga.

>and didn't even write his own lyrics.

he didn't write SOME of his own lyrics.

But yeah.

on stage. And this was after HOURS of mostly bullshit opening acts (I don't think I'd be exaggerating if I said there were 11 of them, and only two or three were any good), so the crowd was fed up and ready to go. But him (and a little of Method Man) kept the crowd in the game, and satisfied, even though they only got to do six songs.

So yeah, props to dude. He was ill as fuck on the stage and on the mic.

fuck you do get drunk and start reminiscing over Dirty again? Lol. Remember this, my dude?
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2489490&mesg_id=2489490&listing_type=search

>fuck you do get drunk and start reminiscing over Dirty again?
> Lol. Remember this, my dude?
>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2489490&mesg_id=2489490&listing_type=search

but u taking it too far. The greatest collective of MC's in history, lol, u can suck a fat baby's dick.

you're probably not an expert on legendary collectives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv_d4fWZpB4

>but u taking it too far. The greatest collective of MC's in
>history, lol, u can suck a fat baby's dick.

And Juice Crew didn't really rock with each other like that.

>but u taking it too far. The greatest collective of MC's in
>history, lol, u can suck a fat baby's dick.

talent wise, Freestyle Fellowship/Project Blowed crew are much better... pretty much can't think of any crew of MCs seeing them...

Wu Tang still amazing though.. so its not far fetched to consider them the best...

i'm done.

>talent wise, Freestyle Fellowship/Project Blowed crew are
>much better... pretty much can't think of any crew of MCs
>seeing them...
>
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m69opped061qa9yvvo1_500.gif

those cats came out tight and then what?

more hype than overall substance.they had a moment in time and to me they matter but they ain't seeing some groups and alot of that is that they choked. 93-97 they were on the pulse and there after they haven't nearly been half that interesting imo and though they have had moments solo, they didn't even half of that "IT" they had out imo.

a would've,could've,should've act if there ever was one

>a would've,could've,should've act if there ever was one

Enter the 36, Wu-Tang Forever, Return to the 36, Liquid Swords, Ironman, Tical, Cuban Linx, Supreme Clientele, Fishscale, and a handful of others would like to have a word with you. I'll be patiently waiting for you to name any group in rap that put out THAT many classics or near-classics.

dude acted like they dropped "36 Chambers" and then disappeared like Junior Mafia or some shit.

*snickers*

The rest of them niggas, not so much

I guess we can keep moving the goalposts all day long, but I thought we were supposed to be talking about Wu's strength as a collective. They're stronger than their weakest links, contrary to the old saying, and always have been.

i can name several groups with two or more classics. PE, De La, Gang Starr, Tribe, OutKast, etc...

wu-tang wasn't a group in the same way tribe was. they were more like boot camp or dungeon fam or cash money.

for the Boot Camp Clik or for the individual groups that made the albums?

Enta Da Stage is a classic album by Black Moon from the Boot Camp Click.

because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah Skeltah). OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to make the Wu greater than they are. Lump all of the solos in as Wu albums

>OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to
>make the Wu greater than they are.

Wu-Tang forever

>Lump all of the solos in as
>Wu albums

No but I'll lump them in as albums by memberS (emphasis on the S) of the Wu Tang Clan which while featuring one MC prominently still had other Wu Tang members all the hell over it.

You've got your boxes you're trying wrap around them but the way they did it doesn't quite match your boxes.

>because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it
>was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah
>Skeltah).

All those Wu albums had the Wu logo all over it, see my avatar for instance

>>OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to
>>make the Wu greater than they are.
>
>Wu-Tang forever

all good things come to an end

>
>>Lump all of the solos in as
>>Wu albums
>
>No but I'll lump them in as albums by memberS (emphasis on the
>S) of the Wu Tang Clan which while featuring one MC
>prominently still had other Wu Tang members all the hell over
>it.

so now we're admitting that the "featured mc" couldn't hold said album down for dolo, right?

>
>You've got your boxes you're trying wrap around them but the
>way they did it doesn't quite match your boxes.

so the Wu get a special set of rules huh?

>
>>because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it
>>was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah
>>Skeltah).
>
>All those Wu albums had the Wu logo all over it, see my avatar
>for instance

it's either a solo album or a Wu album. can't be both

>>>OKP makes their own rules so do what you must to
>>>make the Wu greater than they are.
>>
>>Wu-Tang forever
>
>all good things come to an end

Everything you have seen has always been and always will what be. With regard to whom or what, its got to be.



>>You've got your boxes you're trying wrap around them but the
>>way they did it doesn't quite match your boxes.
>
>so the Wu get a special set of rules huh?

What's your fixation on rules are you the govt?


>>
>>>because the albums weren't done under the Boot Camp tag. it
>>>was done by the groups (Black Moon, Smif-N-Wessun & Heltah
>>>Skeltah).
>>
>>All those Wu albums had the Wu logo all over it, see my
>avatar
>>for instance
>
>it's either a solo album or a Wu album. can't be both

Well actually it can be both. That's a false dichotomy. Politicians use this kind of mindtrick a lot, look it up in your Funk and Wagnals

And here I mean the early ones of course. They're different because they were produced (entirely or largely) by RZA, and most if not all of the guests were other Wu members. They felt like a product of the same group, even though they had one MC's name on the cover. The early Wu solos are basically extensions of the Clan catalog to me. Later stuff like "Nigga Please," most of Meth's post-"Tical" shit, etc. don't count the same way - they are more conventional solo releases with fewer Wu cameos, less or no RZA production, a deliberately different and more eclectic aesthetic, and so on.

>And here I mean the early ones of course. They're different
>because they were produced (entirely or largely) by RZA, and
>most if not all of the guests were other Wu members. They
>felt like a product of the same group, even though they had
>one MC's name on the cover. The early Wu solos are basically
>extensions of the Clan catalog to me. Later stuff like "Nigga
>Please," most of Meth's post-"Tical" shit, etc. don't count
>the same way - they are more conventional solo releases with
>fewer Wu cameos, less or no RZA production, a deliberately
>different and more eclectic aesthetic, and so on.

are Wu albums with one MC being featured, produced by The RZA (I think there might be five tracks over the course of all five of them total not done by him & they're done by one of his understudies like True Master or 4th Disciple), which was kind of a byproduct of having a collective of that size.

They're basically just different serial films done by the same director with the same ensemble cast.

I mean in talking about Liquid Swords RZA laughingly said 'GZA heard his album when it was done'.

Cuban Linx featured Ghost as a co-star with every other Wu MC at least appearing once, most more then once & even had songs on it Rae didn't appear on.

After the double-album the next phase came in letting each member "spread their wings" & the next wave was the result (for better or in many cases for worse) of that.

it's just not that commonly done. But I've always regarded all of those as being Wu-Tang albums.

>And here I mean the early ones of course. They're different
>because they were produced (entirely or largely) by RZA, and
>most if not all of the guests were other Wu members. They
>felt like a product of the same group, even though they had
>one MC's name on the cover. The early Wu solos are basically
>extensions of the Clan catalog to me. Later stuff like "Nigga
>Please," most of Meth's post-"Tical" shit, etc. don't count
>the same way - they are more conventional solo releases with
>fewer Wu cameos, less or no RZA production, a deliberately
>different and more eclectic aesthetic, and so on.

so can we agree that for the most part, the Wu members aren't able to carry a solo LP?

>so can we agree that for the most part, the Wu members aren't
>able to carry a solo LP?

Yes - but so what? Where have we gotten or where are we going, relative to where we started?

>The rest of them niggas, not so much

and a bunch of dope albums so miss me with all of that.

RZA's production is what made the Wu what they were. When his sound died out, so did the Wu. 93-97 was great because of RZA. Ghost and Dirty are the only ones to release high caliber material post 97.

>>The rest of them niggas, not so much
>
>and a bunch of dope albums so miss me with all of that.

dope from 93-97, right? if so i agree. post 97, you can miss me with that

a couple of important albums for there time and a 2-3 legit talents there that actually somewhat counted and even then they still come up short.

Wu ain't that deep.

but they ain't seen like that and depending on the side of the country you are in that speaks directly to that. some parts of the country they are bigger and in some others they ain't seeing Bones thugs and Harmony so miss me with the Generalizing sweep ain't got it like that.

you talking like they had a NWA break off of Careers? SILENCE and Crickets 101 and big time there Partna!

>the country you are in that speaks directly to that. some
>parts of the country they are bigger and in some others they
>ain't seeing Bones thugs and Harmony so miss me with the
>Generalizing sweep ain't got it like that.

You don't have to love 'em like I do but if you really can't understand their importance & impact in multiple areas enough to admit they're in the conversation, well then we ain't gonna have much to talk about when it comes to the history of hip-hop music so let's just save each other the time.

and yet still whatever head doesn't admit they're at least on the short list for all-time is getting the side-eye from me as a hip-hop fan, they also can still drop some heat nearly twenty years later (like Chamber Music or OB4CL2 from just last year) even if for a variety of reasons (including the demise of this thread's subject) it will never be the same as it was during the initial RZA-helmed "five-year plan" (which is a better run during that period than any group has ever had).

i never gave his antics a pass, nor his music

>i never gave his antics a pass, nor his music

should go ahead and try a write a rap emulating it.


No rapper to my knowledge since Dirty came on, has been able to do it and nobody probably ever will.

And not only because of style, delivery, and stage performance, but cause of his lyrics as well. Show me the evidence that he didn't wriye his rhymes and I'll let that one go, but he was fucn great IMO and Nigga Please was a good album

as his addiction got worse he began being so unfocused that people had to write for him. Gza & Pharrell come to mind.


but in the early days he would sometimes do old 'All In Together Now' routines on his solo work where he'd spit a Gza verse that has already been recorded.


but he penned the majority of the rhymes that belong in the ODB canon.

and aside from "Damage" (and where it was recycled elsewhere on the album) I couldn't imagine anyone else writing those lyrics

_______________________________

ॐ शांति शांति शांति

i feel like i'm in the twilight zone

lmao

this dude spit 5% jargon in one song and bitch better have my money
in another on his only solo album entitled Nigga Please... and that's
legendary?

LMMFAO... this is why I love the lesson

okayplayer.


avy: our new album. you may just like it. listen for free online @ http://theyesyesyalls.com

http://twitter.com/shamelessplug
http://theyesyesyalls.com

clearly it's not body of work nor quality/quantity

at least not in this post

>clearly it's not body of work nor quality/quantity
>

dies, that pretty much equates to legend... I disagree. I get this post--> traditional
east coast heads who ride for anything east coast. Ain't nothing
legendary about ODB. It's an emotionally driven post about an at BEST
average rapper in a legendary Crew. What possibly makes ODB legendary?
Exactly what did HE do?

I am merely pointing out that there is more than one criteria for being a legend.

But when you're a rapper who was an integral part of one of the most popular rap groups ever, released two completely unique and widely loved albums, and served as the subject of a string of now-famous urban legends about you doing things like rescuing children from burning buildings, not to mention you're other documented antics, and THEN you die early from the very same thing people claim helped make you great in the first place,
I'd say yeah,
you're a hip-hop legend.

if you don't agree, that's peace, but you know U-God isn't nearly in the same class or held in the same regard as ODB. Not by fans or artists.

don't mind, give me an example of another legendary artist that you'd
mirror ODB after... in terms of quality, artistry, and influence

cuz it's just that...my opinion. Your is that he is NOT and that's cool. We can coexist in here with differing opinions, man. My response was to you equating him with U-God for effect, when you gotta know they're not even close.

yes. yes, he is. ugod. yeah. legend

>i feel like i'm in the twilight zone
>
>lmao
>
>this dude spit 5% jargon in one song and bitch better have my
>money
>in another on his only solo album entitled Nigga Please... and
>that's
>legendary?
>
>LMMFAO... this is why I love the lesson

I hate the Lesson (sometimes).

Ghostface and Rza

honorable mention Raekwon--> if someone argued on behalf of Rae I
really wouldn't disagree.

the rest of them were average, including Meth

>the rest of them were average, including Meth


avy: our new album. you may just like it. listen for free online @ http://theyesyesyalls.com

http://twitter.com/shamelessplug
http://theyesyesyalls.com

legendary as a collective unit... i don't think anybody denies that.
but if you're telling me that Meth is a legendary artist based on HIS
contribution to hip hop as a solo artist we might as well agree to disagree.

And trust me, I fucking hate it.

Method Man is a legend. I agree w/your comments on his catalog. But he's basically the only member of rap's hall of fame without a real marquee album. He's the exception to a lot of rap rules, sadly

others in the legend club without a marquee or bona fide classic album, possibly including Pac & Eminem.

It also helps Meth's cause that he's one of the best live performers in the history of the genre and despite the album issue we discussed can still rock a crowd for the better part of a two-hour set on his own, with Red or with Wu (as I've seen him do in all those incarnations).

Marshall Mathers LP and All Eyez On Me/Me Against The World weren't classics?

>Marshall Mathers LP and All Eyez On Me/Me Against The World
>weren't classics?

You can't be serious dude. Or did you forget him?

did he make great music? hail nah

I can name several great spitters who couldn't write a good song to
save their lives. There's a reason why the usual suspects(Rza, Ghost, Rae)
are always named FIRST when The Wu is in conversation--> they were
the best overall as solo artists. It progressively goes down hill
from there. This post and the contributors are looking thru rose
colored glasses AS USUAL!!

Fuck making a great song, he made a CLASSIC ALBUM.

I forgot all about this post, but damn.

Your taste in rap is suspect as hell.

pretty much anyone to come out in a decade has ever made.

To me, one of the 10/20 greatest rap albums ever created.

Now RZA has a ton to do with that as the conceptualizer/producer who put together yet another classic-movie-on-wax as he did on pretty much all the pre-Forever solos (save *arguably* Tical) but let's not act like GZA didn't drop 'half short, twice strong' quotables throughout that album.

"It's a wide entrance, small exit like a funnel/so deep it's picked up on radios in tunnels'
^^^C'mon.

I was driving to STL a few months ago to buy some records, and I decided to throw it on after a few cups of coffee.

Just the sheer perfection of THOSE lyrics over THOSE beats made me start laughing. I only do that when the rawest of the raw hits my eardrums.

It's a potent album. We played it to death in high school, so I only pull it out once every couple years these days. The last time I listened to it before the STL trip was when I was in Japan a few years ago. My brother was training with a kendo grand master and I took it in with the GZA in my headphones. Pretty sublime experience, to say the least.

>It's a potent album. We played it to death in high school, so
>I only pull it out once every couple years these days. The
>last time I listened to it before the STL trip was when I was
>in Japan a few years ago. My brother was training with a
>kendo grand master and I took it in with the GZA in my
>headphones. Pretty sublime experience, to say the least.

That's phenomenal.

legend gets thrown around The Lesson like rice in a wedding to be
honest, and the majority of the time it's built on emotions

>legend gets thrown around The Lesson like rice in a wedding
>to be
>honest, and the majority of the time it's built on emotions

wasn't all that. You win.

This was off the WEA rap compilation titled "Illystyle Live" where they recorded a showcase of their rap line up at the time performing new songs (had Pete Rock as the dj that night too) and the last performance was by Ol' Dirty Bastard & his Brooklyn Zoo crew (great entertaining show).

Anyway, I like how he brokedown how labels wasn't use to his style of song structures & compositions and what vision he had for his own album (if you saw him live he usually goes on some type of rant at almost every show, sometimes you wondered if he was drunk or just not-right-in-the-head but most of the time he made sense).

Here's the lank, peep what he's saying at 1:22 to 3:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7cMNBRUutI also the rest of his performance is so funny but dope as hell.

I remember when this album came out they had a bunch of people from the album perform live on an MTV Special

I remember De La Soul performing too and there were others

Anyway, Dirty isn't even on the song and you can tell he wasn't even supposed to rip that night and he just got a mic and tore it down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qarXfMLnIp8

He is fuckin' great yo

Return To the 36 Chambers (My favorite hip hop album of all time)
and Nigga Please (Which was also a classic to me)

I didn't like the Dirt McGirt album or the Osirus mixtape that much because it sounded like he was trying to be too much like a cookie cutter MC on those

with the stuff that came out when he was either imprisoned (technically he was locked when the second one first dropped but that one was already done & it was still Dirt's vision all the way down to the Rick James-inspired cover photo) or after he passed.

All the stuff that followed were basically cash grabs culled from cutting-room scraps.

And that INCLUDES Raekwon and Ghostface.

*prepares to dodge tomatoes tossed by snooty Lessonheads*

nah. that Neptune/Irv Gotti platter served up on Nigga Please has aged poorly. the songs on their that stick to the more bizarre Wu stylings save it imo.

was the one guy in the Clan that could pull off rocking over the cleaner, outside non-Wu production with his work on that album.

It's not as cohesive a statement as Return To The 36 as a result of the increasing insanity of his life by that time & because of the varying contributors on it but that album helped usher in the Neptunes and I don't think theirs or Gotti's tracks on the album are weak links.

You really consider 'Recognize', 'I Cant Wait', 'Got Your Money', 'Rollin WIth You', & 'You Dont Wanna Fuck WIth Me' to be bad songs?

... drugs KILLED him. As an aritst and MC. Got worse and worse as those chemicals set in. He deserves his props but YOUR opinion can go by the wayside. Critique a film or something, my brother ...

At first people were mad that Rza wasn't at the helm and this didn't sound like a dusty Wu Classic, but The Neptunes Laced Dirty and ODB was on some Rick James Rock star shit

I mean, I love Dirty and alladat. But just... no.

he carried the albums with his personality. he didn't rely on a gang of guest spots from his brethren on each cut. i also gotta give Meth props for that as well even though i don't care for Tical too much

_______________________________

ॐ शांति शांति शांति

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkKWcRZGCbY

sometimes, your Duke shows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJTOkPI08gk&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3Dboondocks%2Byou%2Beat%2Ba%2Bdick%26aq%3Df&has_verified=1

Me: Yes, Kaia....it is. Wu-Tang! Wu-Tang!

D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqMvz_Pagks&feature=related

I'm laughing thinking what the NYU student hosting this show musta been thinking in the presence of this kind of unbridled id in close quarters.

Six plus minutes of beautiful mess that I could have listened to for sixteen or maybe even sixty.

.

Oh My Lord, I've got the biggest smile on my face right now.

People like Kanye act like the soul hip hop sound was something they originated. RZA had the sound on lock between ODBs debut and Ironman. My mama and my Daddy taught me this, Roberta Flack jacking, Kool and the Gang referencing, you could never fuck with him my nigga!

Him and 12 O'Clock ripped it!

Thank you.

Dirty was ripping shit up.

Not sure where all these bullshit Waka Flocka and Lil B comparisons are coming from.. really not even the same thing at all.

I wouldn't be mad if they compared him to Pac (even though that's not entirely accurate either) because not only did he have the personality/charisma/hypeness/brashness.. but he could actually rhyme and flow and rock the mic live.

He is truly in another category.. Lil B and Waka disguise/hide their lack of pure emcee skills behind the wall of hypeness/charisma they project.. Nothing against either of them as they have some cool songs and do some interesting stuff, but Dirty enhanced his skills with the charisma thing.. He was obviously bored with straight up rhyming bars and had to take it to some other place with the music. He actually made the r&b/pop songs he spit on edgier and more listenable (Mariah, SWV, Ghetto Superstar, etc.).

No East Coast/Real Hip Hop bias here either. I'm from northern Cali.

"Cuttin Headz"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpW8L2Hy0Vs

we played shimmy shimmy ya when they introduced us as husband and wife..Dirty was the man and tho it sounds cheezy, no one could replace what he gave to music..

>we played shimmy shimmy ya when they introduced us as husband
>and wife..

when his verse came on everyone stood up and jammed


I�d rather sojourn into self till I reached the epitome of spiritual splendor
Haters fender bender beat down and ostracize the dreamer
But its more than dreams when the inner light is revealed through the cracks of fa�ade-stephanie (me)

http://youtu.be/OnffO4RkPZY

You are a GREAT contributor to this site Bombastic but how on god's earth is this thread NOT an example of someone turning a subjective opinion into musical critique (=what you accused me of in the Dylan-thread)?

BTW, I agree 100% with the sentiments of this post but still, show some intellectual consistency dude!!!

trying to compare it to a reply in that comparitive Dylan post is even less intellectually consistent.