No knock to AFKAP (I don't have to tell him that he knows where I stand) but jazz isn't really his strong suit. It's not lonesome's either but he's good on the etymology of music (lol at 'etymology').

I'm just talking shit because as big of a jazzhead as I am it's only because this is the Lesson where jazz is only half heartedly appreciated. And since I'm doing all this tangential rambling before getting to the heart of your request (and cause it's come to mind so much recently) for a band that came in the door on some jazz shit, The Roots (and by The Roots I mean 15... oh I should also mention I'm drunk posting...lol) don't never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever talk about jazz at fucking all. Literally the only jazz I can associate 'em with is Roy Ayers. Ain't that some shit!! I don't even think 15 likes jazz.



But yeah I want to refer back to my Cool Jazz post while we're still tangenting. Nothing in particular just go check that ish out - http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2883015&mesg_id=2883015&listing_type=search

Alright now the buzz is kicking in, let's get to chopping.

>the recent music snobs got me to thinking...

First of all I've never listened to them. What exactly did they say?

>at what point did jazz become something seperate than pop.

Okay let's call the hub of pre-WWII pop music the Tin Pan Alley sound, Gershwin, Porter, et al. Tin pan Alley is turn of the century. I always mark jazz as Sidney Bechet which is like 1910ish. Now Tin Pan Alley was hot but classical still going. Black music was the blue, gut bucket, unsophisticated nigger shit. Then Bechet went to europe and crushed buildings. Literally. It's important to note it was the overseas exposure that pushed it over the line. Which is to say the music was happening before but it was that pivotal moment. And what Bechet brought to the table was improvising. That's what Europe took note of. The jizz. And make no mistake it was the taboo of the negro and their primal energy that made shit blow. And make no mistake it was exciting pheremones.

It was the fluidity of improvisation which was then adopted into classical composition, and Tin Pan Alley songwriting. But being negros the inverse also happened, specificially with tin pan alley, as the jizz bands started playing all of Tin Pan tunes, but with the jizz arrangements, and that free improv spirit.

Mind you this is all the 20's. It's so crazy with jazz, we all have these pictures of what it is that stem from things that came out of it decades later.

Duke on the other hand was like not only can we kill the Tin Pan stuff we can fuck with these classical composition shit too.. Big band era, there was money, and folks was doing it lavish. And people was loving it, from the dance halls doing the lindy hop, to the sophisticated music halls with gloved handclaps and intermissions.

But concurrently there were always the after hours spots where the players just went to play. And in essence that's what kept jazz alive. So when the money fell out and there weren't any more big bands touring, it was these after hours jook joint bands that started keeping the essence of jazz alive which was not playing to what was considered pop per se but just playing.

be-bop grew out of this aesthetic in many ways. The real jazz not the show that was being put on for the audiences. Of course these were their own types of audiences as well. And with the whole hep cat movement and the culture of the beats and counter cultural things, those audiences kept shit going.

Til it started burning out, and when that happened it was back to the jazz renditions of the pop forms. So there's always been that balance until I'd say the 80's by which point the gutteral jazz had completely lost out. Cool jazz or the pop jazz won.

>i had always viewed jazz and rock and roll as two seperate
>branches of music, and each one split off into different
>branches.

They are.

>but duke ellington doesn't sound much like
>weather report, and miles and cannonball aderly.

Uhhhhhhh yeah they do. I know what you're trying to mean, but really they do. Whole other post though.

>what's more, what i think of as jazz laid some of the
>foundations for funk.
>(again, the music snobs pointed out that "so what" and "cold
>sweat" were similar
>grooves... which blew my mind for some reason).

LOL!!! I'll leave that alone.

>then i realized that most of my favorite music from the 60s
>came
>from musicians that played jazz too (funk bros, p-funk)
>and that jazz, although not the sound of young america
>anymore...
>was still very much present. even early EWF albums were heavy
>on jazz,
>and the later ones could be fusion albums if it wasnt for the
>vocals.)

I think I said it in another post, era of players. Jazz was the pinacle of playing, and as such the players are associated with jazz. But remember these are folk 50-60 years after the birth of jazz. It's the equivilent of all jazz players in the early days knowing how to play the blues.

>so here's my question.
>is the term jazz just a marketing gimmick?

Yes.

>even more troubling... was it just a word used to marginalize
>black music (and black ppl?).

Jizz. Absolutely.

>i always thought jazz was just an approach ppl had to
>songwriting and playing.

It was/is.

>but now, i'm wondering if it's just another word for "music by
>and for jungle bunnies."

But that music was different. Just like Race Music wasn't just the pop tunes sang by black folk, until it became Soul musicians singing Beatles tunes but that's another topic.

>and i always thought it was somehow seperate from pop.
>but now, i'm realizing that might be a misconception as well.

I think it's interesting because of your perceptions of pop. that's all I'll say for now. need to refill this drink.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."