Let's get these votes in before the playoffs start!

Poll result (14 votes) Top 10 (6 votes) Vote Top 15 (6 votes) Vote Top 20 (0 votes) Vote Top 30 (2 votes) Vote I don't think Giannis is already Top 30, because I'm an idiot. (0 votes) Vote

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Wouldnt he already be kind of top 20?

>Wouldnt he already be kind of top 20?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

So if he wins another ring and is Finals MVP this year? He's at minimum Top 15, and he's knocking on the door of the Top 10.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>So if he wins another ring and is Finals MVP this year? He's
>at minimum Top 15, and he's knocking on the door of the Top
>10.

MJ
Magic
Isiah
Bron
Bird
Timmy
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
Kobe
Shaq
Malone
Hakeem
KD
Steph
Baylor
Stockton
Harden


just threw out the first that came to mind and no particular order...I'd say another title/MVP this year knocking on 15 rather than 10...by the end of his career, if he maintains with or without titles, he'll be right there though.

Or James Harden?

Like... huh? Based on what? lol

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>Or James Harden?
>
>Like... huh? Based on what? lol

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

>Or James Harden?
>
>Like... huh? Based on what? lol

I've never been fond of trying to cast someone's career in bronze with so much time left. There are only a handful of HOFs across sports whose careers run less than a decade. The use of numbers can be arbitrary and biased, depending on who the argument is being made for. Lebron gets that sort of treatment regarding him only having 4 rings.

I fully expect Giannis to beasts for 6 more years but WHAT IF he fell the fuck off after this season? Whether fair or not, shit would look very different if he didn't sustain this high level for several more seasons.

BTW Barkley needs to be put on the list. He was greater than a lot of the players named, just had shitty teams 2/3 of his career.

Stockton:
0 titles
0 Finals MVPs
0 MVPs
0 DPOYs
2 All-NBA First Team
0 All-Defense First Team
10 All-Star Games

Giannis:
1 title
1 Finals MVP
2 MVPs
1 DPOYs
3 All-NBA First Team (will be 4 after this year)
3 All-Defense First Team (will be 4 after this year)
6 All-Star Games

Yes, Stockton has more Second Team appearances than Giannis, but Giannis’s last 4 years are way better than any peak Stockton ever had.

Longevity arguments are most interesting when discussing guys with MVPs or a ton of All-NBA First Team honors, because you start having to argue how long this guy was between the first and fifth best player in the sport, regardless of ring.

But Stockton wasn’t even the best player on his own team. That always hurts a guy’s legacy compared to being The Guy.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>Stockton:
>0 titles
>0 Finals MVPs
>0 MVPs
>0 DPOYs
>2 All-NBA First Team
>0 All-Defense First Team
>10 All-Star Games
>
>Giannis:
>1 title
>1 Finals MVP
>2 MVPs
>1 DPOYs
>3 All-NBA First Team (will be 4 after this year)
>3 All-Defense First Team (will be 4 after this year)
>6 All-Star Games
>
>Yes, Stockton has more Second Team appearances than Giannis,
>but Giannis’s last 4 years are way better than any peak
>Stockton ever had.
>
>Longevity arguments are most interesting when discussing guys
>with MVPs or a ton of All-NBA First Team honors, because you
>start having to argue how long this guy was between the first
>and fifth best player in the sport, regardless of ring.
>
>But Stockton wasn’t even the best player on his own team.
>That always hurts a guy’s legacy compared to being The Guy.

but he was 1b to 1a on a team that but for the Bulls may have won back to back titles. that is a fuckton of what ifs but we know how many legends were blocked from winning by the 90s Bulls.

he was one of the purest point guards, all time assists leader by a mile, and that record will stand for a MINUTE (crazy that lebron is #7), and was a very solid FG and 3P shooter before 3 point shooting was en vogue. led the league in steals twice and was usually at the top of that list. extremely hard for point guards to get serious MVP looks.

I'm not a fan of awards as much as a player's numbers because that shit is voted on by people who never played and it can be type formulaic. Like why would Jordan win the MVP some years but not every, same for Lebron, how does Steve Nash win back to back over Shaq and Kobe, etc. I recognize that those are accepted as part of the equation but it's always been a bit of self fulfilling prophecy. Like how many MVPs are NOT HOFs? Not to say Steve Nash shouldn't be, but that shit elevated his stock something ridiculous.

I get that Giannis will have all the pins on his NBA jacket and well worth it, but his role in winning is what is most important, ultimately. And that is what Stockton played a significant role in as well for the Jazz.


I will fight for Barkley being on a top 20 any day of the week.

the jumper goes from reliable to automatic,

the post moves go from bully or I will out quick you to adding Dream/McHale footwork and finishes

And his sense of taking over the game, when to throw the hammer down continues to evolve

If these three things happen, his numbers will stay consistent for the next 5-7 years...he's 27

its not unreasonable to say top 3. His numbers will reflect it and he will probably have at least one more chip.

------------------
One Hundred.

IMO, both questions kind of go hand in hand given they both play the same position and this question is revolving around the best of all times list.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

Duncan is a Top 10 lock. 2 MVPs, 5 titles, 3 Finals MVPs, 15 ASGs, 15 All-NBA teams (!!), 15 All-Defense teams.

Giannis has 2 MVPs, 1 title, 1 Finals MVP, 6 ASGs, 5 All-NBA teams, 4 All-Defense teams.

Giannis isn't close to Duncan yet.

But also worth noting that (a) Giannis is 27, and (b) the divide between 10th best and 20th best is pretty fucking massive, imo. Like, Giannis's resume is almost certainly top 25 right today, and he's honestly another title away from Top 15 imo. And even then, he's *still* not sniffing Duncan yet.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>Duncan is a Top 10 lock. 2 MVPs, 5 titles, 3 Finals MVPs, 15
>ASGs, 15 All-NBA teams (!!), 15 All-Defense teams.
>
>Giannis has 2 MVPs, 1 title, 1 Finals MVP, 6 ASGs, 5 All-NBA
>teams, 4 All-Defense teams.
>
>Giannis isn't close to Duncan yet.
>
>But also worth noting that (a) Giannis is 27, and (b) the
>divide between 10th best and 20th best is pretty fucking
>massive, imo. Like, Giannis's resume is almost certainly top
>25 right today, and he's honestly another title away from Top
>15 imo. And even then, he's *still* not sniffing Duncan yet.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Shocking development.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

and as a team.

I still enjoy the FACT that we 3-peated in the middle of his prime and their “dynasty”

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

No?

Then what’s your point? That if Giannis wins this year, and if he wins three more titles and gets another decade of All-NBA and All-Defense on top of that… he could pass Duncan then? Because my answer to that would be “no shit,” lol.

But, of course, getting another decade of All-NBA and All-Defense without missing a beat is really fucking hard. Duncan’s numbers are insanely gaudy. Giannis has a whole decade of work to do before we start the Duncan vs Giannis convo.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>No?
>
>Then what’s your point? That if Giannis wins this year, and
>if he wins three more titles and gets another decade of
>All-NBA and All-Defense on top of that… he could pass Duncan
>then? Because my answer to that would be “no shit,” lol.
>
>But, of course, getting another decade of All-NBA and
>All-Defense without missing a beat is really fucking hard.
>Duncan’s numbers are insanely gaudy. Giannis has a whole
>decade of work to do before we start the Duncan vs Giannis
>convo.

Duncan's numbers are "gaudy" if you go by how many teams he was voted to, if you go by actual stats and the eye test Giannis is already quite a bit ahead of him

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Still waiting on that answer. If you'd like to ask a different question, happy to answer that, lol.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

I don't think the original question as posed is close at *all,* but do you, lol.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Have a great day!

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

is Giannis better than Duncan given where he is right now.. which implies its a comparison based on where they were at 27 and where Giannis will go given his success thus far

If Giannis continues playing like this???? I think he will be.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

but pound for pound Giannis is going to surpass him as an individual talent.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

... then Bud is absolutely going to be in the HOF.

It's one of these works-both-ways things-- if Giannis can do what it takes to have a Top 10 level career (i.e. win multiple more rings), then the guys who stick around him like Middleton and Holiday will absolutely have Ginobili and Parker level reps when it's all said and done.

And if they don't win more rings, then not only will the supporting cast be seen as worse than Duncan's, the coach will be seen as not a HOFer, Giannis will be seen as worse than Duncan, etc.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

only won 2 playoff series in the 6 seasons since Duncan’s retirement. I love Pop. He’s among my favorite coaches ever and was the perfect fit for Duncan and the Spurs, but it’s a bit misleading to frame it like that when comparing players. In the 6 seasons since Duncan retired, the Spurs have made the playoffs only 3 times and only made it out of the first round once. In Duncan’s 19 seasons, the Spurs made the playoffs every year and only failed to advance past the 1st round in just 4 of those seasons.

a lot people don't want to give Phil Jackson his props because he had Jordan and and Shaq and Kobe.

A lot people call Eric Spoelstra a great coach because he won 2 out 4 with Bron, Wade and Bosh lol

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

A lot of HOF coaches make the Hall specifically because they pair well with one of the great players of all time.

People gripe about some of Bud's tendencies every year... but if they win another title this year (or in a near-future year with Giannis), he's almost certainly HOF bound, lol.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>but pound for pound Giannis is going to surpass him as an
>individual talent.

Laughable

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

He's on course tho... Duncan played 18 years and Giannis, in year 8 is already more than halfway towards Duncan in points and will surpass his assists and steals total in three years or so. Don't think he will catch him in rebounding or blocks UNLESS HE DECIDES TO.

------------------
One Hundred.

Overall, I don't like to go greatest of all time lists because it hard to factor in different eras and it far too easy to be a prisoner of the moment and undermine players from the past.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

<--- Big Baller World Order

Obviously easier said than done, but yeah, if anyone can do it, it’s Giannis.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

He has the potential to... but like Frank said, getting another decade of All-NBA and All-Defense without missing a beat is really fucking hard.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

vigorously lobbied to have him listed at center so he wouldn’t be compared to other centers and continue to receive PF awards.

It’s funny people are quick to yell out he was 15-time first team all defense but he NEVER won defensive player of the year once.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

The resume is ridiculous.

I'm going to say top 15 to be safe but he's got a top 10 trajectory going.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

He's a great player also with great potential for growth. Two qualities that don't often go together.

But if he continues growing skills at this pace, it's not inconceivable to imagine him as one of the top 10 two-way players of all time.

I think the issue with him cracking the top 10 or even the top 15, is more with the reality that he's competing with players that are kind of indefatigable in their positions. And also we now have 75 years of history to sort through.

Given the increased number of players, by the time of his retirement, being a top 20 player will probably be more elite then than it is now.

<--- Me when my head hits the pillow

Top 10 contains some combo of:

MJ, KAJ, Bron, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird, West, Hakeem, Durant etc.

To get in that grouping - he'll need at LEAST another FMVP. But if he were to get 2 MVPs, 2 FMVPS, 2 rings, a DPOY, etc? That's pretty insane already. It's not off the table for him to win another MVP or even another DPOY either. If those things were to happen - it's really just a case of number of rings at that point, right?

Like all those guys have at least 2 FMVPs (except Wilt and Russell but hard to hold that against them given the year the award started). If he were to get that...he's got a real case at a top 10 spot. Probably closer to 13-15, but a case.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

He already has one more MVP and all the defensive accolades. If he gets another title/FMVP, it's a wrap on Giannis vs. KD as far as I'm concerned (unless KD wins again, of course, lol).

He wins another, I'm putting him ahead of West too. I'm basically putting him neck and neck with Hakeem at that point, with the understanding that Giannis has to either approach Dream's longevity or win a third title to leapfrog Dream.

He wins a third title/FMVP, then he passes Dream, and Giannis vs. Bird becomes a real conversation.

All of this is also leaving out if he wins another MVP-- which he could even do this year in theory! lol like, if he gets to 2 titles, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs, and keeps making All-NBAs/All-Defenses... even without a third title, he's at worst 11th on the all-timer list.

That's a lot of "if"s, of course, which is why I think the question's so interesting, because the ceiling is so high, but he's also so early into his prime that the range of outcomes is pretty wide.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

It's hard to compare Giannis with a lot of these players because Giannis is having this success at a much younger age than the elite of the elite.

It would take Giannis winning more than one more title or one more MVP to surpass KD to me.

While KD only went to the one Finals before joining the Dubs, that Thunder team was consistently a 1 - 3 seed for a number of years. They only missed out on Finals because the Spurs and Warriors were just more talented teams.

Also, KD likely missed out on an MVP playing with Steph and the Dubs. With Steph siphoning KD's votes, that prevented KD from making a real charge at one of those alarms. KD also had some impressive play during those playoff runs. Even though the '19 team didn't win it all, he was going to go down as a 30+PPG on a 50+/40+/90+ split. Something that I think has been done only a handful of times. For as great as Giannis was last year towards the end of the team's run, Giannis doesn't have the number of high-level playoff runs like KD.

Another thing that pulls me in Durant's favor is his elite shotmaking. Not that Giannis is not a tremendous offensive player, but KD's versatility as a scorer is virtually unmatched. You could make a case that Giannis is just as versatile as a defensive player as KD is offensively, but for me, I'll side with KD.

Since Giannis is so young, I think the best we can do is compare Giannis to these other players at their ages. And in that sense, we can probably say, yes, Giannis is better in a lot of cases. But of course, in the context of this post, we're talking about careers.

<--- Me when my head hits the pillow

but he's bound to get injured, or someone on the team that's important gets injured, or the roster just has cap casualties to where they get really thin

<--- Big Baller World Order

premature? perhaps.. but its inevitable.

Another ring and FMVP just makes the argument asinine..

Only thing Duncan has over him right now is # of rings, not performance or impact

> Duncan has over him right now is # of rings, not
>performance or impact
>
>

Duncan was just as influential just as many high profile games / moments


Giannis hasn't eclipsed Duncan....yet

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

Rings? Accolades??

While legit, I'd argue those are more so team accomplisments than individual.

I'll also agree career cnsistency is a huge factor as Duncan as pretty much done his entire career

but I'm looking at peaks, and no other PF as done it better than Giannis imo.. and progressively getting better too.

Not to mention his singular impact on a team far outweighs Duncan's



>> Duncan has over him right now is # of rings, not
>>performance or impact
>>
>>
>
>Duncan was just as influential just as many high profile games
>/ moments
>
>
>Giannis hasn't eclipsed Duncan....yet

If you think peak is more important than longevity, then you bump Giannis higher. If you think the value of remaining elite for a decade is equally important or moreso than peak, then you bump him lower. Trying to find that sweet spot (and comparing him to guys with near-peaks and way better longevity) is really tough. (And kinda why I wanted to post this, lol.)

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

But Duncan also had 4 other hall of famers

and an OG like Robinson to help him figure it out the position

Giannis had to learn the ropes on his own which I give him a huge amount of credit for

If Giannis wins another ring and another finals mvp w this cast , then he’s tied w Duncan at the very least

I just disagreed w the performance / impact part of your post

>Rings? Accolades??
>
>While legit, I'd argue those are more so team accomplisments
>than individual.
>
>I'll also agree career cnsistency is a huge factor as Duncan
>as pretty much done his entire career
>
>but I'm looking at peaks, and no other PF as done it better
>than Giannis imo.. and progressively getting better too.
>
>Not to mention his singular impact on a team far outweighs
>Duncan's
>
>
>
>>> Duncan has over him right now is # of rings, not
>>>performance or impact
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Duncan was just as influential just as many high profile
>games
>>/ moments
>>
>>
>>Giannis hasn't eclipsed Duncan....yet
>

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

... I think the odds of at least one other player (probably Middleton) making the HOF are pretty strong.

I agree that Timmy's supporting cast was better (as was the coach, obviously), but they can all ride their way to the HOF on Giannis's back if they stick around and stay healthy, lol.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>Rings? Accolades??
>
>While legit, I'd argue those are more so team accomplisments
>than individual.

Duncan was a much more skilled player, a better defender, and a consistent clutch performer

>
>I'll also agree career cnsistency is a huge factor as Duncan
>as pretty much done his entire career
>
>but I'm looking at peaks, and no other PF as done it better
>than Giannis imo.. and progressively getting better too.

Did people not watch Tim play until he got old or something?

>
>Not to mention his singular impact on a team far outweighs
>Duncan's

HOW SWAY?

>
>
>
>>> Duncan has over him right now is # of rings, not
>>>performance or impact

Duncan came to the Spurs and they became perennial title contenders and he sent his coach and teammates to the HOF. He left and they sank into the abyss

What are we doing here?

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

...shoulda slapped a fan, gotten lots of technicals or something, because obv his play on the court wasn't enough lol

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

MOST have Duncan as the best PF ever - over Malone/KG/etc. Some would probably argue that Duncan is a center and if so - that he's a top 5 C, but not the best of all time.

If we're counting him as a PF - Giannis hasn't surpassed Duncan obviously. The KG argument - hmmmm. Malone? I mean - longevity is what separates them, I guess...

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

Easily.

KG's greatness lied mostly in his defense and being a dope teammate and leader. But he could never carry a team as the #1 option.

By all accounts, Giannis is all that too except he can be first option and a dominance on offense we never saw in KG

We're just so accustomed to using the "longevity" crutch, but the peak test dont lie

>
>Easily.
>
>KG's greatness lied mostly in his defense and being a dope
>teammate and leader. But he could never carry a team as the
>#1 option.
>
>By all accounts, Giannis is all that too except he can be
>first option and a dominance on offense we never saw in KG
>
>We're just so accustomed to using the "longevity" crutch, but
>the peak test dont lie

KG wasn't a first option in his MVP year?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

The only crazy longevity stats KG has are All-Star games (15) and All-Defense teams (12). He only has 9 All-NBA teams-- only four of those First Team. It's pretty likely Giannis matches KG's First Team All-NBA number this year, plus he has an extra MVP award *and* a Finals MVP?

I personally think the extra MVP counts for a *lot*. Even if you think KG is ahead of Giannis just because of longevity... I think it's pretty clear that, even for those people, they should acknowledge that Giannis is, like, one season or one ring away from already being better than KG.

Malone is an interesting case because the ring definitely stands for a lot, but 2 MVPs plus double digit All-NBA First Teams... I mean, goddamn. The Malone vs. KG argument basically boils down to "does a ring plus more defensive honors cancel out an extra MVP and *seven* more All-NBA First Team honors?" The existence of Giannis... kind of shows how easily you can rack up the best of KG's accomplishments, whereas doing what Malone did over that period of time feels considerably harder. This is kind of making me relitigate Garnett vs. Malone in my head, lol.

Anyway. I think Giannis is ahead of KG, and if you think a ring totally cancels out nearly a full decade difference of All-NBA First Team honors (and I don't think I do!), then, in terms of career accomplishments, you probably have Giannis at least poised to pass Malone at minimum if Giannis can get just one more ring, one more MVP, or consistent accolades for the next half-decade. All of which seem like reasonable potential outcomes imo.

And I don't think anyone would dispute that Giannis's peak is ahead of Malone's *and* KG's-- just matters how much stock you place in longevity.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

>kind of shows how easily you can
>rack up the best of KG's accomplishments

There are like 5 people who have won MVP and DPOY in the last 40 years, Giannis, KG, Hakeem, Robinson, Jordan.

That's it, that's the list. -T.Kornheiser

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

>premature? perhaps.. but its inevitable.
>
>Another ring and FMVP just makes the argument asinine..
>
>Only thing Duncan has over him right now is # of rings, not
>performance or impact

when people argue for Duncan they go on about how many All-NBA and All-Defensive teams he was voted on, not many in-game moments lol

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

that is how I view this discussion.

Duncan had the footwork and fundamentals but Giannis is more athletic IMO.

No wrong answer IMO

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

>when people argue for Duncan they go on about how many All-NBA
>and All-Defensive teams he was voted on, not many in-game
>moments lol

what in-game moments does KG have besides barking like a dog?

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

>>when people argue for Duncan they go on about how many
>All-NBA
>>and All-Defensive teams he was voted on, not many in-game
>>moments lol
>
>what in-game moments does KG have besides barking like a dog?
>

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

... that the response was going to be "damn near?" rather than addressing the actual content of your comment, lol.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

LOL

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Starters MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS +/-

Tim Duncan 45:46 9 19 .474 0 1 .000 3 5 .600 4 16 20 10 0 8 4 2 21 +11

<--- Me when my head hits the pillow

It’s typically the same poster or two, but I think a lot of people forget where the Spurs were prior to drafting Duncan and how limited the talent was on his teams for a good stretch of his early years.

Did Duncan benefit from being drafted into a solid, well run organization? Yes, of course. The Spurs were an aging team that had a reputation for being soft. They were the Jazz-lite. Lots of great regular season play, only to disappoint in the postseason. I loved the Admiral but he was on the downslope of his career and nowhere near the prolific scorer he used to be when Duncan arrived. Great, but past his peak and his play dropped off pretty quick post 2000. Before Duncan arrived in SA, did anyone view Pop as a great coach? No. He was an unproven head coach who turned out to be special with the help of Duncan.

Duncan’s help wasn’t *that* great on his 99 and 03 teams. In the 99 finals, he averaged 27 & 14 on a team that only scored 85 per game. 35 year old Mario Ellie was their 3rd leading scorer and DRob averaged 16 & 12. Duncan played far more minutes than his teammates. He basically never came off the court. His 03 run was even more dominant. I’d argue no player won a championship with less talent save for the Dream over the past 25-30 years.

Parker and Ginobli didn’t hit their stride til the mid 2000s. He took the Spurs from being soft to instant contenders. 19 seasons and 19 playoff appearances. Only 4 1st round playoff exits and 1 of those he didn’t play (2000). 2000 could’ve been much different if he didn’t break his ankle at the end of the season.

I’m staying out of this debate for now and just appreciating the unique and fun talent Giannis is. Just had to say something about the Duncan arguments that lack historical context and accuracy though. Folks really need to revisit those 99-05 Spurs teams and watch how dominant Duncan was and how instrumental he was to their success. Heck, that 2014 team doesn’t win a championship without his clutch play against Dallas in the first round.

>It’s typically the same poster or two, but I think a lot of
>people forget where the Spurs were prior to drafting Duncan
>and how limited the talent was on his teams for a good stretch
>of his early years.

They were 2 years removed from a David Robinson MVP, 60 win season and conference finals lol


>Did Duncan benefit from being drafted into a solid, well run
>organization? Yes, of course. The Spurs were an aging team
>that had a reputation for being soft. They were the
>Jazz-lite. Lots of great regular season play, only to
>disappoint in the postseason. I loved the Admiral but he was
>on the downslope of his career and nowhere near the prolific
>scorer he used to be when Duncan arrived.

Didn’t they both average 21ppg Duncan’s rookie year?

>Great, but past his
>peak and his play dropped off pretty quick post 2000. Before
>Duncan arrived in SA, did anyone view Pop as a great coach?
>No. He was an unproven head coach who turned out to be
>special with the help of Duncan.
>
>Duncan’s help wasn’t *that* great on his 99 and 03 teams.
>In the 99 finals, he averaged 27 & 14 on a team that only
>scored 85 per game. 35 year old Mario Ellie was their 3rd
>leading scorer and DRob averaged 16 & 12. Duncan played far
>more minutes than his teammates. He basically never came off
>the court. His 03 run was even more dominant. I’d argue no
>player won a championship with less talent save for the Dream
>over the past 25-30 years.
>
>Parker and Ginobli didn’t hit their stride til the mid
>2000s. He took the Spurs from being soft to instant
>contenders. 19 seasons and 19 playoff appearances. Only 4 1st
>round playoff exits and 1 of those he didn’t play (2000).
>2000 could’ve been much different if he didn’t break his
>ankle at the end of the season.
>
>I’m staying out of this debate for now and just appreciating
>the unique and fun talent Giannis is. Just had to say
>something about the Duncan arguments that lack historical
>context and accuracy though. Folks really need to revisit
>those 99-05 Spurs teams and watch how dominant Duncan was and
>how instrumental he was to their success. Heck, that 2014 team
>doesn’t win a championship without his clutch play against
>Dallas in the first round.
>
>

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

That 60 win/MVP season (95) was 4 years prior to Spurs first championship in ‘99. Wonder what happened between 96 and 98?? Are you just going to ignore that aside from the fact that he was getting older, the Admiral suffered a career altering injury? He was still very, very good, but not near the athlete and overall player he was pre injury. And again, his play took a pretty steep decline post 2000. There is a reason why Duncan was extremely close to leaving SA in 2001 and it was the lack of talent on those Spurs teams. Also, are you going to address why/how the Spurs went from winning the championship in ‘99 to getting bounced in the 1st round in the playoffs to a very mediocre Suns team the very next season?? Did something change?

Yes, the Admiral was on about an even playing field with Duncan his ROOKIE year (97-98), but never close after that (to no fault of Admiral). Go back and watch the Lakers-Spurs series in 99. Timmay was head and shoulders the best player on the court. He averaged 29/11 and the next highest scorer on the Spurs was Sean Elliott with 13ppg. Duncan played 16 more minutes per game than the Admiral. Again, historical context is needed in these debates and you consistently ignore or distort facts to discredit Duncan any chance you get.

>That 60 win/MVP season (95) was 4 years prior to Spurs first
>championship in ‘99. Wonder what happened between 96 and
>98?? Are you just going to ignore that aside from the fact
>that he was getting older, the Admiral suffered a career
>altering injury?

Everybody knows Pop tanked in 96-97 and intentional held D-Rob out even though his injury had healed and he could've can back but the Spurs where trying move up in the draft and hit the jackpot when the lottery balls fell their way. Boston had the highest percentage to get the #1 pic but things didn't go their way. If Duncan ends up in Boston he's still good but he doesn't have the same career.

>He was still very, very good, but not near
>the athlete and overall player he was pre injury. And again,
>his play took a pretty steep decline post 2000. There is a
>reason why Duncan was extremely close to leaving SA in 2001
>and it was the lack of talent on those Spurs teams. Also, are
>you going to address why/how the Spurs went from winning the
>championship in ‘99 to getting bounced in the 1st round in
>the playoffs to a very mediocre Suns team the very next
>season?? Did something change?

because Timmy was hurt but D-Rob still balled out averaging like 24&14

>Yes, the Admiral was on about an even playing field with
>Duncan his ROOKIE year (97-98), but never close after that (to
>no fault of Admiral). Go back and watch the Lakers-Spurs
>series in 99. Timmay was head and shoulders the best player
>on the court. He averaged 29/11 and the next highest scorer
>on the Spurs was Sean Elliott with 13ppg. Duncan played 16
>more minutes per game than the Admiral. Again, historical
>context is needed in these debates and you consistently ignore
>or distort facts to discredit Duncan any chance you get.

When they played the Lakers they got smacked down and it was Robinson guarding Shaq while Timmy hid out on the weakside. Duncan wanted no parts of that lol.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

not dismissing Duncan but they went out and got some goons to beat up on opponents.. lol.

they didn’t change from a soft team due to acquiring Duncan.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

His game hasn't as memorable as others so as time passes it feels like people forget how great he was.

he's better than Hakeem lol

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

www.Tupreme.com

https://ibb.co/k4m6n8C

People forget Dream didn't really have significant running mates until very late in his career. Samson got injured early and even when he won that first title, he didn't have a second all star next to him.

You give Dream Manu and Parker, with Bruce Bowen throughout his prime though, and his career rivals Cap's IMO- and Dream would still have had the inferior talent around him, but a lot.

Dream gets a little lost in these discussions. But he was the unicorn of all unicorns IMO.

KAJ is the only guy we could say MIGHT have had a better career than Mike Jordan.


http://art-------school.com/

https://ibb.co/k4m6n8C

Dream won a chip with Vernon Maxwell as his second best player
He won again with the last gasp of Clyde as his #2

You give Dream prime Magic and Worthy in the 80’s- not to mention elite defender like Coop- and the results for Dream are likely similar, of not better.

Because dream was the superior defender, and it’s not exactly close.

Kareem won 6 with an embarrassment of riches

That’s not a knock on Cap
But Kareem is absolutely in that class- with ANY big man *ever*