How many more do they win?

What if he decides to give Phil a long term contract?

Jordan was 34 but he probably had at a few more years at a high level seeing as how he played later with the Wizards.

Scottie still in his prime.

Could the have kept Rodman in line for a couple more years?

Other role players like Harper and Kerr went on to play key roles for other championship teams.

Did they have a couple more in them?

The next season was the lockout* 50 game season

REALLY think that would’ve worked to their advantage

The next 2 years, after the last dance, the Pacers were the best team in the East

MJ pwned Reggie, and I think they make it to the finals with relative ease

You also keep Feel off the LAL

I don’t think they 3peat w/o Feel in LA given that soap opera

The bulls roster did fluctuate

But it felt like the players were periodically turned over for similar players

IMO, keeping Scottie, Feel and MJ on the bulls results in 2 more rings

Eventually, the SAS and LAL do breakthrough

*it can’t be coincidence that the lockout season followed the last dance

This was a very public dispute between management and players over money

I wonder how much of a factor, watching arguably the 2 best players in the league fight tooth and nail with their organization for assumedly deserved money, I wonder how much that factored into the lockout

Other players must have been thinking, if Scottie and MJ can’t get paid...the fuck am I gonna do

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

>The next season was the lockout* 50 game season
>
>REALLY think that would’ve worked to their advantage
>
>The next 2 years, after the last dance, the Pacers were the
>best team in the East
>
>MJ pwned Reggie, and I think they make it to the finals with
>relative ease
>
>You also keep Feel off the LAL
>
>I don’t think they 3peat w/o Feel in LA given that soap
>opera
>
>The bulls roster did fluctuate
>
>But it felt like the players were periodically turned over for
>similar players
>
>IMO, keeping Scottie, Feel and MJ on the bulls results in 2
>more rings
>
>Eventually, the SAS and LAL do breakthrough
>
>*it can’t be coincidence that the lockout season followed
>the last dance
>
>This was a very public dispute between management and players
>over money
>
>I wonder how much of a factor, watching arguably the 2 best
>players in the league fight tooth and nail with their
>organization for assumedly deserved money, I wonder how much
>that factored into the lockout
>
>Other players must have been thinking, if Scottie and MJ
>can’t get paid...the fuck am I gonna do

This is powerful. I agree about the Bulls being at the forefront of the labor dispute. Sadly, it makes sense back then because the front offices in most leagues weren't understanding what was happening. Those suited mfers still thought they were running things!

Ultimately, the NBA created a monster with how the league was viewed as a 'individual stars' and highlights league. You can't be selling jerseys, shoes, and stars on ESPN and other networks and then have mfin Scottie Pippen not being in the top 100 paid players.

David Stern should've run up on the Bulls front office and said 'hey now, get Pippen some more money. You can't have Jorn making 30 million and Scottie making less than 3 right there by him'. The 'you signed the deal, now live with it' plan backfired something terrible. And now we have dudes who haven't and won't ever win jack making 35 million a year in the same league. Yikes.

Keep in mind. Jordan didn't really care about his Salary. He was even more underpaid than Scottie, based on value that is, before his last three years.

Jordan could have held the bulls for ransom, but he was making so much endorsement money that he didn't care about his nba salary. Before 1996, Jordan was never the highest paid player in the league, not once.

However, I think jordan knew that had he demanded top dollar, the bulls wouldn't have been able to bring other players in.

Fun fact, in 1996 Jordan and Horace grant were top 2 in NBA salaries....Jordan was making 30 million a year. Horace was making 15 million a year. Also, Rodman came in at number 10 making 9 million a year. Scottie was making 2 million a year. So it wasn't that the Bulls were not willing to pay players or didn't want to pay players. Scottie just had a terrible agent, who allowed him to sign a terrible deal.

>So it wasn't that the Bulls were not willing to pay players or
>didn't want to pay players. Scottie just had a terrible agent,
>who allowed him to sign a terrible deal.

His agent could tell him to sign or advise him to not sign. Scottie still had to make the decision to do it and take the action to do it.

Scottie gotta eat that.

--- praying for peace, love, and power

I don’t think Pippen was in his prime anymore though. He was a good and versatile player still. Smart and experienced. But his body wasn’t the same.

titles.

Father time never loses, which is why you don't compete against it. Every person and team who has tried has lost.


Everyone is focusing on the bulls, and them still having scottie and michael, and not focusing on how good and powerful other teams were becoming.

Also, the Bulls lost the intimidation factor, which made them a dominating team. People no longer feared them.

Eaxmple:

1995-96 bulls went 72-10
96-97 went 69-13
97-98 they went 62-20

The decline was in full effect. Like Pat Riley stated, dynasties fall hard and sudden. It is never a slow fade.

Lakers went 62-21, sonics went 61-21, spurs 56-26, and pacers went 58-24. Bulls went 1-1 against the lakers in their final season. In the first game, the bulls won ( but shaq wasn't in that game), and in the second game, the lakers beat the bulls ( with shaq ). Lakers were on the rise, and they went on to form a dynasty.

Pacers split the series with the bulls, 2-2, and they took the bulls to game 7 of the ECF. Also, the bulls won the division by 2 games. It was evident that, moving forward, the pacers now had the younger and better team, and they were now a force in the EC.

San Antonio Spurs won the championship in the 98\99 season. They had a great team that year with a coach who was just as cerebral as Phil. The spurs would have had the better all around team.

Basically, teams were now prepared and up to challenging the bulls.


The aging of Michael Jordan:

Jordan would have been 35 in the following season. He had already lost his GREAT athletic ability, and could no longer jump out of the gym. However, jordan was such an elite fundamental player, he used his intelligence to play at an elite level. But that can only go on for so long. Sports is a young man's game, and jordan was having issues being able to guard the younger and faster guards of the NBA. It was going to continue to decline because father team always wins.....



And most importantly, the Bulls bench was not serviceable any longer.The bench of Kerr, Buchler, Wennigton,Brown, Burrell and Kukoc lacked the athleticism and speed to keep up with younger and stronger benches. This was the main problem to me.

example:

Indiana's bench: Jalen rose, Antonio Davis, Travis Best, Derrick Mckay, Mark West, Austin Croshere. And Other teams had prominent and better benches as well.



We can kick the hypotheticals all day long. But the bottom line is they went out on top, no other dynasty can state that. So it ended the way it should have ended. 6 rings, no championship losses, and two 3peats. Krause did the right thing, and actually preserved Jordan's legacy as an undefeated champion. Magic's decline wasn't pretty. Bird's decline wasn't pretty. Barkley's decline wasn't pretty. Ewing decline's wasn't pretty. Kobe's decline wasn't pretty. Dr.j's decline wasn't pretty, etc,etc....I'm glad we didn't see Mike go out like that.

Rodman would've had young Timmy's number and the "Dobermans" would've given Avery Johnson fits, Kurt Rambis probaby would've still been the Lakers coach, the Pacers had key players that were getting older too, biggest challenge might've been the Knicks.

C’mon son

are you watching the doc?

Scottie missed half the season with an ankle injury and then played his way into shape during the regular season

= a 7 game difference and a FOH

that’s not a decline.

MJ played every game the last 3 years

EVERY GAME THE LAST 3 YEARS!

Winning MVP and finals MVP in the last dance

THAT’s NOT A DECLINE!

MJ pwned Reggie

= a FOH for the pacers

Look, nobody is saying they bring back the exact same roster, man for man

You keep Scottie, Feel and MJ together and fill out the rest of the roster

C’mon son

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

I'm saying they would have lost to the Spurs and Pop, and would have not been able to compete as years advanced.

Aging, chico, aging....It's like vegas, it always wins.

Pacers, Nets, Lakers, Spurs all went to the championship years later.....The decade was coming to an end, and so were the bulls. Just like the 80s ended with the Lakers and Celtics coming to an End.


It's just simple math, really.

But we will never know. My mans went out top, even if he was forced.

just that they didn't lose to time...they lost to Krause's little man syndrome. Thats it.

>I'm saying they would have lost to the Spurs and Pop, and
>would have not been able to compete as years advanced.

LOL what?

Pop is over-rated right today as a coach...he definitely wasn't anything to fear in 99. Dude was on the verge of getting canned most years.

98 wasn't a decline. Pip was hurt and played into shape.

The bulls beat the Spurs. In 6, maybe 5.

Duncan and Robinson would be a problem but look up that roster lol. You think the Bulls would have struggled with Sean Elliot and Mario Ellie? LOL LOL


>
>Aging, chico, aging....It's like vegas, it always wins.

Literally no one is saying it doesn't. But they weren't there yet.

>
>Pacers, Nets, Lakers, Spurs all went to the championship years
>later.....The decade was coming to an end, and so were the
>bulls. Just like the 80s ended with the Lakers and Celtics
>coming to an End.

Huh? Yeah the Pacers and Nets went after the Bulls were blown up by Lil Krause. So your point makes no sense.

The Lakers? The Lakers would be completely different had the Bulls stayed together.



>
>
>It's just simple math, really.

Apparently its not, because you think the Lakers would somehow still be the Lakers if the Bulls stayed together. And you think Mario Ellie puts fear into the heart of the 6x champs.

>
>But we will never know. My mans went out top, even if he was
>forced.
>
>

Your mans?

Look, the lockout would have benefited the Bulls more than anyone. Extra rest + shortened season/more focus?


They definitely win in 99. '00? who knows, because the Bulls staying together makes LA AND Portland completely different.


So who knows after '99...but they definitely get one more in 99. Its really not much of a debate. At all.


Jerry Krause was a legit idiot. And Reinsdorf. That team has had like 3 decent or better seasons since. What a dumpster fire organization.

Jordan, Pippen, Phil deserved a much better organization.

WE don't know that. You can predict all you want, but that's all it is...a prediction. We will never know, because they were broken up.

The fact you blow off indiana, makes no sense. Again, they split the series with the bulls 2-2. Bulls won the division by only 2 games. And Indiana took them to 7 games in the ECF, and the only reason the bulls won is because Kukoc had possible the greatest game of his life.

They won 88-83. That is how close the bulls came to not winning their 6th title. So for you to blow indiana off and say they wouldn't have had the bulls number makes no sense.

Jordan was 9-25 in that game, and the bulls didn't look good at all in that series. Pippen was 6-18. Indiana did a number on both of them, because they had the younger and better team. They were hungry. But it was Kukoc going 7-11 and scoring 21 points to save jordan's 6th championship.And he shot 75 percent from 3. But know one talks about it...

The bulls had already shown some regression, and the short season would have probably hurt them than help them to be honest. The older you get, it gets harder to get going to and to close out.


Bottom line we don't know what would have happened.....that's really where this discussion stops. we agree to disagree.

>titles.
>
>Father time never loses, which is why you don't compete
>against it. Every person and team who has tried has lost.
we're ALL competing against time. even if it wins, we don't just lay down and give up.


>Everyone is focusing on the bulls, and them still having
>scottie and michael, and not focusing on how good and powerful
>other teams were becoming.
>
>Also, the Bulls lost the intimidation factor, which made them
>a dominating team. People no longer feared them.
spoken like someone who never actually played against them


>Eaxmple:
>
>1995-96 bulls went 72-10
>96-97 went 69-13
>97-98 they went 62-20

with their second best player, top 5 in the league, out for 2 months. if you're judging them by their regular season record, then you can't eliminate the largest factor in that record. the fact that they still won 60+ games without Pip is a testament to how great a team they were.

>The decline was in full effect. Like Pat Riley stated,
>dynasties fall hard and sudden. It is never a slow fade.
again, they got a year older but this decline myth holds no weight with an injured Pip.


>Lakers went 62-21, sonics went 61-21, spurs 56-26, and pacers
>went 58-24. Bulls went 1-1 against the lakers in their final
>season. In the first game, the bulls won ( but shaq wasn't in
>that game), and in the second game, the lakers beat the bulls
>( with shaq ). Lakers were on the rise, and they went on to
>form a dynasty.
Lakers didn't make it out of their own conference for two more years.

>Pacers split the series with the bulls, 2-2, and they took the
>bulls to game 7 of the ECF. Also, the bulls won the division
>by 2 games. It was evident that, moving forward, the pacers
>now had the younger and better team, and they were now a force
>in the EC.
they didn't even make it to the finals the following year, sans the bulls

>San Antonio Spurs won the championship in the 98\99 season.
>They had a great team that year with a coach who was just as
>cerebral as Phil. The spurs would have had the better all
>around team.
>
>Basically, teams were now prepared and up to challenging the
>bulls.
>
>
>The aging of Michael Jordan:
>
>Jordan would have been 35 in the following season. He had
>already lost his GREAT athletic ability, and could no longer
>jump out of the gym. However, jordan was such an elite
>fundamental player, he used his intelligence to play at an
>elite level. But that can only go on for so long. Sports is a
>young man's game, and jordan was having issues being able to
>guard the younger and faster guards of the NBA. It was going
>to continue to decline because father team always wins.....
>
>
>
>And most importantly, the Bulls bench was not serviceable any
>longer.The bench of Kerr, Buchler, Wennigton,Brown, Burrell
>and Kukoc lacked the athleticism and speed to keep up with
>younger and stronger benches. This was the main problem to me.
this thing called free agency. they also made a few key pickups from season to season.


>example:
>
>Indiana's bench: Jalen rose, Antonio Davis, Travis Best,
>Derrick Mckay, Mark West, Austin Croshere. And Other teams
>had prominent and better benches as well.
>
>
>
>We can kick the hypotheticals all day long. But the bottom
>line is they went out on top, no other dynasty can state that.
>So it ended the way it should have ended. 6 rings, no
>championship losses, and two 3peats. Krause did the right
>thing, and actually preserved Jordan's legacy as an undefeated
>champion.
that undefeated champion shit is for message board debates.

>Magic's decline wasn't pretty.
unique circumstance

>Bird's decline wasn't
>pretty.
back blew up

>Barkley's decline wasn't pretty.
body fell apart

>Ewing decline's
>wasn't pretty.
likewise

>Kobe's decline wasn't pretty.
likewise

>Dr.j's decline
>wasn't pretty, etc,etc....I'm glad we didn't see Mike go out
>like that.

you must have forgotten the wizards years. ever wonder why he bothered? no one KNOCKED him off the mountain. the fucking mountain was taken away. Jordan was never scared of losing, but I think that team felt someone cheated in that they weren't allowed to defend the title until beaten. Definitely one of the oddest endings to a championship sports run.
>
>

that shortened season would have benefited the Bulls like no other team. they were the most experienced, and needed less time than any other team to establish a rhythm. That extra rest would have been HUGE. The fact that Jordan was able to put together some memorable games in a Wizards jersey, considering he never really started in the best shape (broken ribs from playing with Artest over summer) he could have, he would have been fine for one more year. Again WITH ALL THAT REST. We talk this load management shit. Well, give the oldest team a third less games to play and it can ONLY help them.

I was in college and traveled abroad that fall so was not paying close attention but it's fucking ridiculous that the greatest modern sports dynasty was ended OFF the court.














>
>
>
>
>
>

and even two seems very unlikely.

It's funny to me how the butthurtness of Bulls fans has somehow become conventional wisdom. Of course Krause did himself no favors by building an abject disaster in the wake of the six titles.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Maybe even two more. I thought the momentum they had then was still strong. Krause was stupid in trying to trade Scottie away. While he wasn't Jordan, he wasn't irreplaceable either. Him and Rodman kept that team going.

I think that Tracey Mcgrady trade would have been awesome. They would have gotten a player with a scoring mentality like jordan, and who could do all things Scottie could do as far as running the offense ( ball handler, passer, rebounder). He did not have scottie's superior defense, but he was more lethal as a scorer, jordan/kobe lethal. One of the greatest offensive players to play the game.

It's about building for the future. You already got 5 rings out of Pippen. Time to bring on the future who could learn under Jordan.

So Mcgrady/Jordan/Rodman made sense moving forward.....but Jordan vetoed the trade.


It would have been trading a hall of famer for a hall of famer ....one being younger and setting up the future for the bulls to extend their dynasty.

To people like US, a record is a piece of history. A moment in time.
Most people don't get it.

The TMac hype is projection

He didn’t break out until 2000 in ORL

Sounds good in hindsight, but MJ would’ve either mindfucked an 18-19Y.O. TMac out the league...or retired anyway at the clear rebuild signal.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

Well, there is a reason why Jerry Krause wanted him. So we disagree, and he did pan out to be a great player.

Scottie came in as the same skinny skrawny little kid who no one knew about out of Arkansas, and he held his own. I'm sure Tracey Mcgrady would have held his. I'm saying it would have worked out brilliantly.

You don't have to like Krause, but in his prime, as a GM, I would put my money on him. His picks and trades were spot on.


Fact: Jordan never got out of the first round without Krause, Pippen, or Phil, or any of the players that Krause brought along. However, when jordan retired, all of them nearly advanced to the ECF.

Jerry Knew what the fuck he as doing. He knew how to draft main and secondary pieces.

He drafted or traded for:

Earl Monroe( bullets)
Pippen
Grant
King
Perdue
Bj Armsrong
Cartwright
Kerr
Brian Williams
cliff Livingston
Longley
Harper
Burrell
Kukoc
Hodges
Buchler
Brown
Wennington
Blount


Each and every one of those players played their part and participated to help the bulls win a ring. So yeah, based on krause's gm history during that era, Mcgrady would have worked out.

>Fact: Jordan never got out of the first round without Krause,
>Pippen, or Phil, or any of the players that Krause brought
>along. However, when jordan retired, all of them nearly
>advanced to the ECF.
>

Eh, this is pretty misleading though. Jordan only played 3 seasons without them - one of which he was hurt most of the year, and all at the very beginning of his career before he had hit his prime.

The Bulls advanced to round 2 in 88 when Pippen and Grant were role players averaging 7 ppg each off the bench.

The Bulls made the ECF in 89 before either of them was all star level.

We can’t act like a prime, healthy Mike wouldn’t have taken almost any team to at least round 2 in ‘94.

Any of these “Mike NEVER did so and so” statements that in reality are based on his first couple seasons of his career.....I just tune those out. Those aren’t genuine points.

Now would the Bulls have eventually been able to rebuild around TMac in the early 00s? Maybe. He would’ve been a hell of a piece. But it would’ve taken a few years and all of the pieces from the 90s Bulls would’ve been long gone. Who really knows who they would’ve gotten to play with TMac by then?

Yes, Krause did a good job in building around MJ, as you pointed out.

As good as TMac ended up being, he wasn’t MJ. The early-mid 00s East was so wack, that you would think a good GM would’ve at least built a team that could win the East around a TMac. But building a dynasty around him?

He was way too pressed to flush away another title to start his rebuild IMO.

Only three season? There is nothing misleading here.

Jordans record without Pippen:

Regular Season: 154-170 (47.5%)
Playoffs: 1-9 (10%)

Pippens record without Jordan:

Regular Season: 295-185 (61.4%)
Playoffs: 19-21 (47.5%)

If we don’t make those excuses for lebron, etc, can’t make them for Jordan. Wasn’t Lebron in his third or 4th season when he took a bunch of nobodies to the championship against the spurs? And I hate Lebron. If you put Jordan on that same Lebron team, do they get to the championship? I don’t think so. And if you put lebron
On the Jordan bulls teams that got bounced in the first round , does lebron get them to the finals?

I’m a bulls fan, Jordan fan, etc, but I’m also logical. Which is why I don’t call Jordan the greatest of all time or the bulls team the greatest of all time. Too many great teams and great players to do that. Some could say that the bulls competition in the 90s playoffs were watered down compared to lakers, sixers, Celtics of the 80s and what golden state had to go through in the west. An argument can be made for that.

Just sports debates. That’s what makes sports great.

You mean a veteran Pippen playing with Grant, Barkley, Hakeem, and those loaded Blazers teams won more in the playoffs than a young Mike playing with nobody? Who cares? It’s just not a relevant point.

Look man, numbers don't lie

And when jordan retired,, in the words of rodman, pippen was possibly the best player on the planet. Dude had a monster year, and lead the bulls in every offensive category, something jordan never did. And he had the bulls one game out of the ECF. They didn't go due to a bad referee call. ...so the blazers is just one tale of the tape.


Hell, when pip decided to have surgery, and sat out most of the first half of the season in 97-98..bulls struggled like hell! Which the series already showcased. They were barley able to score 80 points a game in some of those losses, and were losing to bottom teams. Jordan had a better squad than what pippen had in 94/95. If pippen doesn't come back, jordan and the bulls get tossed easily in the playoffs in 97/98. Hell rodman carried the bulls while pippen was out, which the documentary is going to showcase on Sunday.

Jordan does not possess the magic/pippen/lebron like ability to get everyone involved, which is why you put those players on any team they are going to get them to the playoffs. ....Jordan is more of an individual assassin. He will destroy and get his, no doubt, but not make everyone better and run the offense as smoothly as pippen. Jordan couldn't run the triangle like Pip. That's just pure facts. Tex stated that pippen was the best runner of the Triangle of all players he coached it to.

You even saw that with the Wizards...I know those years don't count. He was old, but he didn't try to make those players better. He would chastise them verbally....

People get upset, and don't want to hear it. But Pippen was more valuable than Michael Jordan.



“Phil Jackson, at times has said that Pippen is the team’s most valuable player. Where Jordan is the diamond pendant at the base of the gleaming necklace, Pippen is the thread running through the emeralds, pearls, and lesser stones that compose the whole,” Tellander stated.

Tellander even added that Pippen didn’t only imply a solid defensive approach, but that he was also the key factor in Jackson’s trademark “triangle offense.”


“He’s the glue that holds the Bulls’ triangle offense together, its Doberman defense in place. He’s the facilitator, a point forward who can bring the ball up the court, penetrate, shoot, rebound, hit open teammates, and guard anyone against point guards to power forwards. But most of all, he can play team ball,” Tellander added."

Doesnt have to do with this post but damn

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

.

The lockout would have helped those old legs stay fresh. San Antonio would have been a matchup problem for them but you gotta give Jorn and them the benefit of the doubt there.

But do I see them going much beyond that? Jordan's knee was not in great shape, Pippen started to decline in Houston (by the time he got to Portland he was due for the reduced role he got on a deep team), Rodman didn't exactly make a ton of noise the rest of his career and obviously championship balance is very delicate to maintain.

I for one am a little sick of the crying over Krause and also making it seem like he contributed nothing to the two three-peats. The moves for Pippen, Ho Grant and later Rodman were all criminal, Auerbach-level shit. The team had won nothing under the previous regime, despite Michael's presence. He was the guy who brought Phil in and who promoted him. This doc has been compelling but it's all MIKE GOOD/KRAUSE BAD, very simplistic, slanted and frankly unfair since that stubby little dude is dead whereas Jordan has the final say over edits in the doc. Very corporate (Nike, ESPN, NBA) and apologetic for Jordan's behavior. Frankly I don't get that. The past is the past, the rings are won and the brand is established. Why continue to downplay any negative comment about Jordan? It's especially confusing when the doc is calling out names otherwise. Jordan calls Scottie selfish, calls out Ho Grant (whom Jordan treated like shit), is critical of Kukoc, dumps all over Krause, etc. There's no scrutiny applied to Michael's claims, and anything asshole thing he did is ignored or explained away as somehow being necessary.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Phil tried to take his job and Phil was, allegedly, cheating on his wife with Jeannie at the time. He was taking a break no matter what.

They would've lost the next year no matter what. Jorn was due to break down and Pip gets exposed sooner do to increased workload.

No empathy for white misery (c) BDot

"root for everybody black haters say that's crazy, wow..."

Well, what do you know, a real sensible bulls fan?

You, sir, may you wake up in a paradise of the finest hoes that nature has provided.