Cons:
- Only three ASGs
- Lower counting stats than the vast majority of HOFers

Pros:
- Three titles
- Two All-NBAs
- a DPOY, five All-Defense teams, and arguably a top five defender of the decade
- irrefutably helped change the game into the current era of basketball

What say you?

Poll result (45 votes) Yes (30 votes) Vote No (15 votes) Vote

>- irrefutably helped change the game into the current era of
>basketball
>

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

Plenty of teams have shooters and are ramping up the 3PAs— but Draymond is a massive reason the Warriors have been as historically dominant as they have been. When he came into the league, he was viewed as a tweener, a player without position, and that was, at the time, a BAD thing. IIRC, the Warriors tried playing him as a 3 before David Lee got hurt, and it wasn’t as successful.

Playing small ball with a skilled player with strength and defensive versatility is what every team that wants to play like the Warriors requires. It’s why big men are passé and wings/lengthy guards are everything. “Tweener” guys who could play in the post but could also defend the perimeter and make valuable passes or shots outside? Those guys are INSANELY important now. Everything is switching, everything is skill, everything is versatility and movement.

Obviously Draymond isn’t the Draymond he is today without the historically great shooters on that team, but one can easily argue they don’t win that title without what Draymond brought to small ball, they don’t attract Durant, they don’t attain a dynasty. Sure, every team wants the next Steph, but there are a lot of guards who shoot really well really quickly, who can be Diet Coke versions of Steph or Kyrie— there are very few Draymonds in the league. That’s what makes Super Saiyan small ball work: Draymond.

Or, to put it another way, 3PAs were going up anyway before Steph exploded. They just tried to do that with traditional big men down low. Now we realize that’s not the best path. And we realize that because of Draymond.

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*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

A guy that smart and skilled and versatile is about
as rare as supreme shooting guards. There are more
shooting guards in the Dwade/Kobe/Harden class in the
last 15 years than there are Draymond Greens.

Teams are chasing guys like that, trying to play them in a quasi-Draymond role, because they see the efficacy of small ball and how hyper-efficient it can be— but there’s really only one Draymond.* His skill and his use on that team has changed the game in a way other teams will be trying to replicate for the next decade.

*- Until maybe Zion, who has a lot of Dray’s skills plus even better athleticism. Which is a huge reason why people are so excited about what Zion can be.)

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there's some good clips floating around of him breaking down film. What's he thinking in moments


i'll try to find it

-----------------

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WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

And Rodman got in.

____________

He is not the rebounder Rodman by any stretch but he is better at everything else. Rodman generated extra possessions with offensive rebounds but didn't contribute anything else on offense. Draymond can pass, is a great screen man and he can score when called upon (many forget the first half of Game 7 against Cleveland). On defense he is also more versatile, though the difference in total contribution is a lot less striking.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

We don't need that.

They were both tremendously valuable in their era

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

>Cons:
>- Only three ASGs
>- Lower counting stats than the vast majority of HOFers
>
>Pros:
>- Three titles
>- Two All-NBAs
>- a DPOY, five All-Defense teams, and arguably a top five
>defender of the decade
>- irrefutably helped change the game into the current era of
>basketball

But reading your list of pros makes him a definite, IMO. Certainly, the numbers may not look like traditional HOF numbers. But I think as a generation that watched him, we know what he brought beyond the stats.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

Basketball HOF is a joke these days

_________________________________________

also made All-D 1st team just as many times as Green has (4)

also has a Finals MVP

also appeared in 2 more ASG

cmon lol

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

longevity will have to be the other argument for him. i think yes, but i'm biased, i see the warriors play more than any other team and thus, i see the intangibles.

... then I would politely suggest you're not watching him play.

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At times he’s more problems than he’s worth.

I’m looking forward to this season to see if he will return to form.

With KD there he definitely took a step back because he had to.

The point I’m making is that he is a bit overrated.

He could never be a 1 or a 2 on a team. And that’s fine because not everyone can be. He just happens to play his role better than every other role player in the league.

So the question becomes...do role players get into the hall of fame?

You could look at Rodman or Dumars and make the case Draymond deserves to get in.

The DPY definitely help his case.

But talent-wise...he’s not one of the best players to ever play.

In '16 before Durant got there, his missing a game was a huge loss that helped swing the series (probably the biggest factor) and in Game 7 while everyone struggled he hit like 6/7 from three and carried them in the first half.

We are about to see how he does as a No. 2 man because it's just him and Steph for most of this season.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

>In '16 before Durant got there, his missing a game was a huge
>loss that helped swing the series (probably the biggest
>factor) and in Game 7 while everyone struggled he hit like 6/7
>from three and carried them in the first half.

If he didn't get suspended for Game 6, there's a good chance that he would've been FMVP that year.

He's in.

http://i.imgur.com/vPqCzVU.jpg

Anyone who'd vote against him getting into the HOF doesn't know shit about basketball..

The offspring :-D

PSN & XBL: LOQuent

what's the debate

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Fake ass Anthony Mason in a softer league
He'd have to do A LOT more to be one of the best players to EVER play the game of basketball. That's what the HOF is

Key basketball player on a historically great team isn't enough. He's got to do a lot more than what he's done.

He's Hall of Very Good, if that

if he suffered a major injury right now or GS fell off dramatically he definitely wouldn't be "first ballot lock" some people are claiming.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/warriors-draymond-green-says-hes-the-best-defender-to-ever-play-in-the-nba-and-he-has-a-legitimate-case/

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Iggy didn't even make second team.

Dray was Top 5 in the NBA in every defensive metric that season. Iggy was not.

Iggy had a tremendous five games. He won Finals MVP because, after a year of averaging 8/3/3 and never starting all year, he averaged 16/5/4 on the biggest stage and defended the best player in the NBA admirably. It's a great narrative, it's a great story.

But the Warriors don't win that title without the small ball lineup, with if Kerr continued to play Bogut like he did in the first three games. And the Warriors can't play small ball without Draymond being able to genuinely guard 1 through 5. He's a cheat code.

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>without Draymond being able to genuinely guard 1 through 5.


who has he ever locked up or slowed down at ANY position?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

... it's because that thing is true, and people witnessed it repeatedly for many seasons, so it didn't require much more explanation.

If you didn't personally witness the thing that so many other people who watch basketball say is true, and your response is "well, *I* never saw him do this, so everyone else must be wrong!"... then there's not much to add to this conversation.

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its a figure of speech, no one can actually do that.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

The phrase may be thrown around too loosely for non-Draymond people, because every team is searching for the next Draymond, a guy with his level of switchability. Most players fail to reach that true level of switchability, because most players aren't Draymond.

This is the entire point of this post. His positional versatility was paramount to Golden State's defensive success. He changed the way modern NBA teams look at what a "big man" is supposed to be.

If you disagree with that, I'd Google "why is Draymond Green so great" or something like that, and there will be myriad articles explaining it in more depth.

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give him the business. Klay was a much better on-ball defender than Dray.

Being about to switch onto somebody and keep them in front of you for a few seconds until help arrives is not the same as defending someone.

The reality is no one in this era can even remotely claim that title.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
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>Being about to switch onto somebody and keep them in front of
>you for a few seconds until help arrives is not the same as
>defending someone.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

He was the main person guarding LB.

And before Thompson got injured he guarded the other
team’s best defender. And was behind Kawhi as one of the
best perimeter defenders in the league.

Dray ain’t even top ten. 5 all defensive team selections, and couple
of those were second team selections.

Pippen
Jordan
Rodman
Russell
Payton
Cooper
Wallace
Moncrief
Kawhi
Garnett
Hakeem
Robinson

ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON
Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid

Someone should have checked this dude a long time ago.

As he said it, you can tell he doesn't even believe it. Never seen someone so nervous to be arrogant.


If someone had put this dude on the pine years ago everyone would be better off. Including him.


He's very, very lucky to play in today's NBA. That is an objective fact.

** And I actually like dude's game. But, nah. He needed checked a long time ago.

<--- Big Baller World Order

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

<--- Big Baller World Order

______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.

But if he didn’t play alongside the 3 greatest shooters ever he would be another journeyman

Rising tides lift all boats


>Cons:
>- Only three ASGs
>- Lower counting stats than the vast majority of HOFers
>
>Pros:
>- Three titles
>- Two All-NBAs
>- a DPOY, five All-Defense teams, and arguably a top five
>defender of the decade
>- irrefutably helped change the game into the current era of
>basketball
>
>What say you?

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

Player of the Year awards (Dray has 1), to go along with being a 4 time All-Star (Dray has 3).

Ben has 5 All-NBA team picks (Second and Third, never First) and Dray has 2 All-NBA team picks (Second and Third, never First.)

Both have 5 All-NBA Defensive teams, but all 5 of those are First team for Ben, and 2 of those are Second team for Dray.

Dray led the league in steals once, never led in rebounds or blocks. Ben led the lead in rebounds twice and blocks once.

The only stat Dray really wins on is championships with 3 to Ben's 1, but that's absolutely more indicative of how great those teams were.

All this to say Dray could end up being more deserving depending on the rest of his career...but at this point if Ben isn't in the Hall, Dray shouldn't be. And GOAT defensive player? L O L...

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Dray's the only one saying it, but why wouldn't he argue for himself? Given what we know about the dude's personality, it makes total sense, lol.

What many people are arguing (including myself) is that he's the most influential defender of his era, which... is pretty unquestionably true imo. The success of Golden State's small ball lineup has shifted the game away from traditional big men entirely. And if you're a three-time title winner who's impacted the entire NBA... I think that merits HOF inclusion.

I also don't think we have to argue Draymond shouldn't be in the Hall because Ben isn't in the Hall. I think you make a compelling case to put Ben in the Hall.

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________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Dray’s prime, to his one win. So no I don’t think you can say he’s “unquestionably the most influential defender of his era”, whatever that means. If we are talking about influence, Bruce Bowen is arguably the most influential defender of the aughts (with Wallace being the “best” defender of that era) and Bruce isn’t sniffing the HOF either.

>What many people are arguing (including myself) is that he's
>the most influential defender of his era, which... is pretty
>unquestionably true imo.

To be fair, you do have a point below here. I just think the standards for the basketball HOF are just weirdly inconsistent for some people.

> I also don't think we have to argue Draymond shouldn't be in the Hall because Ben isn't in the Hall. I think you make a compelling case to put Ben in the Hall.

post #51 expands on what he is talking about in terms of influence.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

>I also don't think we have to argue Draymond shouldn't be in
>the Hall because Ben isn't in the Hall. I think you make a
>compelling case to put Ben in the Hall.

especially basketball and baseball that give out tons of awards beyond all-league

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

I mean, drays offense is hof worthy compared to ben

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

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-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

i hope everyone here knew Ben was gonna be in the hall

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

______

in the memory of NYC upt JUX�

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Replies are .something in here

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

But another ring just makes it that much harder to dispute.

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---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

"Only" implying a lack of All-Stars means a negative. With fan voting and players making the All Star Game on popularity while playing like ten games, i find it much more impressive to have six all-defensive team appearances.

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

*Mic Drop*

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its like that dude knew their offense better than them.

And that’s just from a fan of one franchise’s perspective.

Drays resume is just a little better than that.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

Which proves my point.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

46 games at 29 mpg.

He was a part timer.

both as a first teamer, and overall

the All Star Game is a little bit of a slave to the moment in terms of how the media frames guys, and what gets talked about. Granted Draymond has a pair of All-NBA honors.

those other 3 are blah, but Cooper is an interesting case

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE