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Subject: "Will DRose go down as only Season MVP not to make Hall of Fame?" Previous topic | Next topic
TRENDone
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Thu May-18-17 02:50 PM

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"Will DRose go down as only Season MVP not to make Hall of Fame?"


  

          

I went thru the list...it looks like they're all going to the hall except him:

dirk
nash
curry
kd
kobe
shaq....

the youngest season mvp ever.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Prolly should but the NBA HOF is easier to get into than Arizona State
May 18th 2017
1
His career looks eerily similar to Penny's
May 18th 2017
4
      RE: His career looks eerily similar to Penny's
May 19th 2017
8
      I'd vote him in just for the Lil' Penny commercials
May 19th 2017
12
      that good Memphis conditioning
May 20th 2017
27
           There was bbq sauce in the Gatorade cooler
May 23rd 2017
32
yeah he aint getting in unless his career takes a magical upswing
May 18th 2017
2
Seems doubtful.
May 18th 2017
3
what if he wins the ring off the bench like R. Jefferson?
May 19th 2017
5
Do rings really count that much?! Seriously.
Jun 01st 2017
71
He needs to get one of those magical bench vet rings.
May 19th 2017
6
he gonna need a couple of em. playing a 2nd or 3rd fiddle role.
May 19th 2017
18
      c'mon..dudes playing 2nd fiddle and winning chips are kyrie and Curry
May 19th 2017
26
hard to say. his career isn't over.
May 19th 2017
7
Walton? Yes, of course.
May 19th 2017
10
I asked another group the same about Walton...
May 19th 2017
11
Re: Walton
May 19th 2017
14
*Only* considering NBA career? He'd be in better shape than Rose.
May 19th 2017
15
trust me, you guys are preaching to the choir:
May 19th 2017
17
      Sure. I said the same thing above.
May 19th 2017
19
Yes, absolutely. Ring, MVP. Finals MVP. Top 5 all-time collegian
May 23rd 2017
33
as of today, Dwight Howard going to the Hall but DRose ain't...
May 19th 2017
9
*hits brakes*
May 19th 2017
13
don't forget Dray was part of the most winningest reg season lol
May 19th 2017
16
      Is Klay a HOFer at the end of this season too?
May 19th 2017
20
           both of them not in yet. But if Ws win, yes both are in.
May 19th 2017
21
                RE: both of them not in yet. But if Ws win, yes both are in.
May 19th 2017
22
                     Curry is a lock. 2-time MVP + 3pt records.
May 19th 2017
23
                     Draymond needs a helluva lot more than that...
Jun 01st 2017
72
                     Curry's an absolute lock, but Klay and Dray aren't.
May 19th 2017
24
                     Curry been in since the first ring and MVP. college counts too
May 19th 2017
25
                          college...hersey hawkins was better than steph in college.
May 22nd 2017
30
                          lionel simmons was better than grant hill in college.
May 24th 2017
35
                               They care about accomplishments, not caliber of play.
May 24th 2017
37
                               I care about Lionel being better than Grant in college.
May 24th 2017
39
                                    i wasn't trolling anyone, you fucking agenda-scavenger
May 25th 2017
45
                                         hard to tell with you sometimes, agenda-boy who cried wolf
May 26th 2017
46
                               no he wasn't.
May 25th 2017
44
                                    sure was.
Jun 02nd 2017
77
                          college counts for like NPOY and NCAA champions not just anyone
May 25th 2017
42
                               Laettner is in the HOF as a member of the original Dream Team
May 30th 2017
64
                                    Laettner was also one of the greatest NCAA players ever to play
Jun 01st 2017
73
Howard getting in would be ridiculous but not unexpected.
May 23rd 2017
34
      ridiculous? he's a lock and deserves to be.
May 24th 2017
41
           He had a stretch of about five dominant seasons.
May 25th 2017
43
                Bruh, he was the last dominant 2-way center since Shaq b/w '07-'12
May 27th 2017
47
                and? i dunno how dominant he was on offense either
May 27th 2017
48
                     His career is more similar to Zo than Moses
May 28th 2017
55
                nah, you can't just cuban b the resume he's put up
May 28th 2017
51
                     one thing to clarify, i dont have a problem with gilmore or mcginnis
May 28th 2017
52
                          it certainly sounded like you did
May 28th 2017
54
                               i guess 'both of whom i like a lot' qualifies as scathing criticism
May 29th 2017
57
                                    it doesn't qualify as a HOF endorsement
May 29th 2017
59
                                         RE: it doesn't qualify as a HOF endorsement
May 29th 2017
62
                                              RE: it doesn't qualify as a HOF endorsement
May 30th 2017
66
Spurs would be a great situation for him.
May 21st 2017
28
PLEASE let this happen
May 22nd 2017
31
Agreed
May 24th 2017
36
Spurs, Cavs, Dubs, all could use a cheap backup PG
May 24th 2017
38
Wolves chatter won't go away.
May 24th 2017
40
YES. Rose to Spurs.
Jun 01st 2017
75
#1 pick overall...rookie of the year...youngest MVP...
May 22nd 2017
29
his resume ends there, unfortunately, but it makes him borderline HOF
May 27th 2017
49
      Just the MVP makes him considerable.
May 28th 2017
50
           yeah the ROY was barely significant, no. 1 pick means nothing
May 28th 2017
53
           the fuck y'all talking about? barring a miraculous career resurrection
May 28th 2017
56
                i dunno we have seen guys with short primes get in
May 29th 2017
58
                not that short
May 29th 2017
60
                     geez dude you are really pulling teeth in this fucking thread
May 29th 2017
61
                          nah you just all over the fucking place in here
May 30th 2017
67
                I said the same thing above.
May 30th 2017
68
                     u said a bench vet ring gets him in, I said miracle career resurrection
Jun 01st 2017
70
                          honestly, i can't even call it. there really is no precedent.
Jun 01st 2017
74
                               there isn't, but it's just not gonna happen.
Jun 02nd 2017
76
We have really normalized partying off injuries, huh?
May 30th 2017
63
Who in here is partying?
May 30th 2017
69
Probably, but he played his best ball in years this season
May 30th 2017
65

ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Thu May-18-17 03:05 PM

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1. "Prolly should but the NBA HOF is easier to get into than Arizona State"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu May-18-17 03:08 PM by ConcreteCharlie

  

          

Every MVP is in the HOF and every MVP but McAdoo was on the NBA @50 list. No exceptions to that since 97 either, obviously Shaq (already on the 50 list, too) Duncan, AI, Kobe, LeBron, Steph, KG, Dirk, et al are in or will get in.

But Rose, I dunno. Obviously there is the same "but but but but his peak!" argument as like Hill, Walton, Penny (not sure if a HOF'er) but I dunno. That prime was great but awfully short and didn't peak as high as Walton or have the second moment like that.

I wouldn't vote for him but like I said the NBA has pretty flimsy standards. Certainly there are worse players in when you look at the three or so great seasons he did have.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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pretentious username
Member since Jun 18th 2010
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Thu May-18-17 04:18 PM

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4. "His career looks eerily similar to Penny's"
In response to Reply # 1
Thu May-18-17 04:18 PM by pretentious username

  

          

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardaan01.html

exactly 3.5 healthy seasons to start out and then injuries take their toll after that. His second act should be stronger than Penny's, but I don't think his game will age all that well given the nature of his injuries. He definitely won't have Grant Hill's second act.

Personally I think that's too short of a prime (compared to a guy like T-Mac for example) but the MVP could be the tipping point for many voters. Looking at Walton's career should make one more optimistic on Rose's chances, but Bill also won a couple rings.

  

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electricflower
Member since Sep 18th 2003
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Fri May-19-17 11:46 AM

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8. "RE: His career looks eerily similar to Penny's"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Penny has got to get in just for foamposites right?

numbers look crooked like king kong shook it - jdilla

  

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pretentious username
Member since Jun 18th 2010
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Fri May-19-17 12:34 PM

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12. "I'd vote him in just for the Lil' Penny commercials"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

but there's a reason I don't have a vote.

  

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Ray_Snill
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Sat May-20-17 12:46 PM

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27. "that good Memphis conditioning"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          


<=========================================
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/PYzh4v9cSf4FDnq3yMQyqNqh79o=/800x0/filters:no_upscale%28%29/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4079674/jlio.0.gif

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Tue May-23-17 11:23 PM

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32. "There was bbq sauce in the Gatorade cooler"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
84997 posts
Thu May-18-17 03:07 PM

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2. "yeah he aint getting in unless his career takes a magical upswing"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43715 posts
Thu May-18-17 03:32 PM

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3. "Seems doubtful."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Even though he had a decent year last year. He also has the honor of being one of two MVPs to never make the finals (him and Nash).

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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TRENDone
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15616 posts
Fri May-19-17 10:35 AM

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5. "what if he wins the ring off the bench like R. Jefferson?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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BSharp
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9243 posts
Thu Jun-01-17 12:05 PM

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71. "Do rings really count that much?! Seriously."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86639 posts
Fri May-19-17 11:38 AM

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6. "He needs to get one of those magical bench vet rings."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If he can do that, he'll get in. Otherwise, yeah, he might end up the exception. The Penny comparison elsewhere was a good one.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
84997 posts
Fri May-19-17 01:12 PM

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18. "he gonna need a couple of em. playing a 2nd or 3rd fiddle role."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59128 posts
Fri May-19-17 04:18 PM

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26. "c'mon..dudes playing 2nd fiddle and winning chips are kyrie and Curry"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

rose is 5th-8th fiddle on a chip team.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts
Fri May-19-17 11:46 AM

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7. "hard to say. his career isn't over."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

maybe he has a second act. would we have viewed walton as a surefire HoFer circa '83?

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Fri May-19-17 12:30 PM

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10. "Walton? Yes, of course."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

One of the best college players of all time, plus an MVP/Finals MVP, and a title? Yeah dude.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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TRENDone
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Fri May-19-17 12:30 PM

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11. "I asked another group the same about Walton..."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

my folks were telling me he was legit in UCLA. HoF for hoops considers college and int't play on top of pro career.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Fri May-19-17 12:43 PM

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14. "Re: Walton"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>maybe he has a second act. would we have viewed walton as a
>surefire HoFer circa '83?

Well, he had won a chip by then. And his college career would have gotten him in regardless, as he's still regarded a Top 5/Top 10 college hoops player ever.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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15. "*Only* considering NBA career? He'd be in better shape than Rose."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I'm not sure if that means he'd definitely have been in, but winning a Finals and a Finals MVP def helps.

But, as everyone else pointed out, the college career made him a lock for the Hall regardless. Three-time NPOY, two titles, two MOPs, part of the 88 straight wins. Only Kareem has a better collegiate resume.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
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Fri May-19-17 12:54 PM

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17. "trust me, you guys are preaching to the choir:"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2190462&mesg_id=2190462&listing_type=search#2191589

i'll rephrase: the perception of walton's PROFESSIONAL career was at an all-time low after essentially missing 4 straight seasons with the clippers and was boosted drastically by what he did in boston. it's still possible that the same thing could happen for derrick.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Fri May-19-17 01:13 PM

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19. "Sure. I said the same thing above."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

Rose just needs to be a support guy on a title team. That'd help his case tremendously. Ultimately, an argument of "MVP + ring" would be really, really hard to deny.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts
Tue May-23-17 11:27 PM

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33. "Yes, absolutely. Ring, MVP. Finals MVP. Top 5 all-time collegian"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Arguably he was the best collegian ever, right there with Cap and Pistol Pete. He was in for sure before the Sixth Man of the Year award.

I would say Rose is a closer comparison to Ralph Sampson or Penny.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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TRENDone
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Fri May-19-17 12:29 PM

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9. "as of today, Dwight Howard going to the Hall but DRose ain't..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If Dray gets the DPOY this season he will go to the Hall...but DRose won't...

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86639 posts
Fri May-19-17 12:42 PM

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13. "*hits brakes*"
In response to Reply # 9
Fri May-19-17 12:43 PM by Frank Longo

  

          

>If Dray gets the DPOY this season he will go to the
>Hall...but DRose won't...

Not if his career ended after this season.

Let's say, best case scenario, he wins another ring. Now he's a two-time All-Star, two-time All-NBA, one-time DPOY with two rings. That's a tremendous three seasons.

I don't think that's enough. The Hall likes longevity. That ASG number needs to get to four or five, for instance.

Dwight, by comparison, is an 8x All-Star, 8x All-NBA, 3x DPOY. So yeah, he's a no-brainer and should obviously get in well ahead of Derrick Rose. Even if Rose wins a ring in the next couple of years, Dwight's still ahead.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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TRENDone
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Fri May-19-17 12:49 PM

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16. "don't forget Dray was part of the most winningest reg season lol"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86639 posts
Fri May-19-17 01:18 PM

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20. "Is Klay a HOFer at the end of this season too?"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Klay actually has a *better* resume than Dray for the HOF right today. He's a higher offensive option on the ring, has the same amount of All-NBA, has *more* ASG appearances.

Dray's career isn't a HOF one today. Does it project as one? Sure, of course-- I'd imagine he can get to 5 ASGs and, if he has two rings, that should be enough. But if he has D-Rose type injury problems starting this offseason and his career falls off considerably, he's far from a lock, and he's certainly not someone in the same breath as Dwight Howard in terms of HOF likelihood.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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TRENDone
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Fri May-19-17 01:37 PM

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21. "both of them not in yet. But if Ws win, yes both are in."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

If Ws win the Finals AND Dray wins the DPOY, yes he's going to the hall in my opinion. The 73-9 thing is a joke to me but if Ws win this year, it turns to "Warriors have the most wins in a 3-season span, best season record all-time, and won 2 rings...."

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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Numba_33
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Fri May-19-17 01:53 PM

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22. "RE: both of them not in yet. But if Ws win, yes both are in."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>If Ws win the Finals AND Dray wins the DPOY, yes he's going
>to the hall in my opinion. The 73-9 thing is a joke to me but
>if Ws win this year, it turns to "Warriors have the most wins
>in a 3-season span, best season record all-time, and won 2
>rings...."


You serious? The Warriors started this stellar style of play roughly four seasons ago, correct? So Curry, Klay, AND Draymond are going to get into the Hall of Fame based on a great five year window of play? Really? I know the NBA Hall of Fame is the easiest to get into compared to the other major sports, but five years is an incredibly small window of time.

I'm not saying neither of those guys will never get in the Hall of Fame, but I really think folks need to pump the breaks a bit, at least as of today.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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TRENDone
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Fri May-19-17 01:59 PM

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23. "Curry is a lock. 2-time MVP + 3pt records."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

he has the top 3 spots for most 3pters in a season. he'll probably finish most 3s made all-time.

Dray needs the 2nd ring AND a DPoY award.

Klay needs a 2nd ring. Thanks to KD, ppl are already forgetting Klay dropping 37 in a quarter.

the 2nd ring will solidify their 3-season run. But that's if they beat the Cavs and as of right now I don't have the Warriors beating the Cavs.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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BSharp
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72. "Draymond needs a helluva lot more than that..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Is Ben Wallace a Hall-of-Famer?

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86639 posts
Fri May-19-17 02:16 PM

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24. "Curry's an absolute lock, but Klay and Dray aren't."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

The Hall rewards longevity, it's the point of this entire post. If Klay and Dray have, say, 5 ASGs each and two rings each, then yeah, they're both in. But even if they win this season, neither of them is in yet, the other dude must be a Warriors fan.

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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25. "Curry been in since the first ring and MVP. college counts too"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

as long as Klay and Dray dont get hurt they're in as well. Dray closer than Klay with his college resume.

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Basaglia
Member since Nov 30th 2004
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30. "college...hersey hawkins was better than steph in college. "
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

____________________________________________________


Steph: I was just fooling about

Kyrie: I wasn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8OWNspU_yE

  

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40thStreetBlack
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35. "lionel simmons was better than grant hill in college. "
In response to Reply # 30


          

guess grant ain't a HOFer either.

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Wed May-24-17 02:03 PM

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37. "They care about accomplishments, not caliber of play."
In response to Reply # 35
Wed May-24-17 02:09 PM by Frank Longo

  

          

So people bringing up Steph or Dray's college careers are missing the point. No one's gonna be like "Draymond Green, he's on the fence... but hey, he was an All-American one time in college, so let's put him in!" If Steph didn't have a HOF NBA career, one miracle run in the NCAA tournament and one First-Team AA weren't gonna put him into the Hall. Juan Dixon ain't getting in. Tyler Hansborough ain't getting in. Shit, Jay Will ain't getting in.

Grant Hill, on the other hand, has two rings and a POY to his name. But you knew that, you're just trying to troll Basa. Just figured I'd post this here before people start cysing Klay Thompson's Pac-12 First Team honors and shit.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
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40thStreetBlack
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39. "I care about Lionel being better than Grant in college."
In response to Reply # 37
Wed May-24-17 06:04 PM by 40thStreetBlack

          

>Grant Hill, on the other hand, has two rings and a POY to his
>name.

Grant does not have a POY. Lionel does.

L-Train better.


>But you knew that, you're just trying to troll Basa.

No, Basa was trying to troll BrooklynWHAT. I just knew that Lionel Simmons was better than Grant Hill in college. And so does Basa.

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Basaglia
Member since Nov 30th 2004
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45. "i wasn't trolling anyone, you fucking agenda-scavenger"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

____________________________________________________


Steph: I was just fooling about

Kyrie: I wasn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8OWNspU_yE

  

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40thStreetBlack
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46. "hard to tell with you sometimes, agenda-boy who cried wolf"
In response to Reply # 45


          

___________________

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Basaglia
Member since Nov 30th 2004
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44. "no he wasn't. "
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

____________________________________________________


Steph: I was just fooling about

Kyrie: I wasn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8OWNspU_yE

  

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40thStreetBlack
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77. "sure was."
In response to Reply # 44


          

___________________

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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42. "college counts for like NPOY and NCAA champions not just anyone"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

If it's going to make the difference for you, you gotta be GREAT.

Honestly the only guy I think is in the HOF because of his NCAA career is Laettner, and frankly he shouldn't be in (sorry, Longo). What the fuck is the NCAA HOF for then? People like him, Johnny Rodgers, Archie Griffin and Mark Fusco. I realize his pro career was better than Rodgers or Fusco, but it was eons from HOF level.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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ThaTruth
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64. "Laettner is in the HOF as a member of the original Dream Team"
In response to Reply # 42


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

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BSharp
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73. "Laettner was also one of the greatest NCAA players ever to play"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

He could deserve it on that alone.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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34. "Howard getting in would be ridiculous but not unexpected."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

NBA HOF if the hall of very good. If you ain't first ballot, you ain't shit these days.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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41. "ridiculous? he's a lock and deserves to be. "
In response to Reply # 34


          

8x All-NBA (5x 1st team), 5x All-Defense (4x 1st team), 3x DPOY, 2 blocks crowns, has put up double-digit boards 13 straight seasons since he stepped foot in the NBA including leading the league 5x, ranks 4th all-time in FG%, 3rd all-time in REB%, was the best defender and rebounder in the league in his prime averaging 21/14/2.5 BPG shooting 59% FG over his 5 year peak, and led his team to the NBA Finals. People can think he's a mentally soft goofball and whatever all they want, but he's put up a pretty unassailable HOF resume.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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43. "He had a stretch of about five dominant seasons."
In response to Reply # 41
Thu May-25-17 01:21 AM by ConcreteCharlie

  

          

He will get in but again I think the standards are weak, they are so weak that now the league is going back and readjusting for the past (guys like Gilmore and McGinnis, both of whom I like a lot, getting in after all these years). Howard racked up a lot of accolades at a time when the position was paper thin. Today it's back to being pretty robust and no one even thinks about him. He did have a dominant stretch when I think you could look at him as a top 2 or 3 player in the league but it was short, then he had a couple more years where he was very good. Overall he has not realized his potential and never grew in a way that would ensure he'd stay nearly as relevant into his old age. When I think HOF I think about players like Howard in his prime who play at that level or close to it over about ten seasons.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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FILF
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47. "Bruh, he was the last dominant 2-way center since Shaq b/w '07-'12"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

>He will get in but again I think the standards are weak, they
>are so weak that now the league is going back and readjusting
>for the past (guys like Gilmore and McGinnis, both of whom I
>like a lot, getting in after all these years). Howard racked
>up a lot of accolades at a time when the position was paper
>thin. Today it's back to being pretty robust and no one even
>thinks about him. He did have a dominant stretch when I think
>you could look at him as a top 2 or 3 player in the league but
>it was short, then he had a couple more years where he was
>very good. Overall he has not realized his potential and never
>grew in a way that would ensure he'd stay nearly as relevant
>into his old age. When I think HOF I think about players like
>Howard in his prime who play at that level or close to it over
>about ten seasons.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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48. "and? i dunno how dominant he was on offense either"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

at his peak he was a short-list mvp candidate for sure, but his peak was a little shorter than you're describing and he never expanded his skill set. he could have been the next moses malone but he didn't have that kind of fire.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
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55. "His career is more similar to Zo than Moses"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>at his peak he was a short-list mvp candidate for sure, but
>his peak was a little shorter than you're describing and he
>never expanded his skill set. he could have been the next
>moses malone but he didn't have that kind of fire.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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40thStreetBlack
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51. "nah, you can't just cuban b the resume he's put up "
In response to Reply # 43


          

he was a dominant player in his prime, top 2-3 player like you said, the best center in the NBA and best defender & rebounder in the league. Then he hurt his back and hasn't been the same dominant player as before, but he's still been a productive player and has put up a total body of work that is HOF caliber. his resume speaks for itself as outlined in the previous post.


>He will get in but again I think the standards are weak, they
>are so weak that now the league is going back and readjusting
>for the past (guys like Gilmore and McGinnis, both of whom I
>like a lot, getting in after all these years).

they got voted in by the ABA committee, as it's the basketball HOF, not just the NBA HOF. that's a separate issue. you're acting like they're letting Kiki Vandeweghe in or something.


Howard racked
>up a lot of accolades at a time when the position was paper
>thin. Today it's back to being pretty robust and no one even
>thinks about him.

1st team All-NBA center the past 3 years has been Marc Gasol, Deandre and PF Brow masquerading as a C. Howard in his prime today would be getting the same accolades as he did before.


>into his old age. When I think HOF I think about players like
>Howard in his prime who play at that level or close to it over
>about ten seasons.

that's not what the HOF criteria is though, and it never really has been.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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52. "one thing to clarify, i dont have a problem with gilmore or mcginnis"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

i actually said for a long time that those guys belonged in, particularly gilmore. but i do think there is some retroactive correction now that they are seeing successive generations have lower standards.


>1st team All-NBA center the past 3 years has been Marc Gasol,
>Deandre and PF Brow masquerading as a C. Howard in his prime
>today would be getting the same accolades as he did before.

i am talking about right today. KAT, Cousins, Gobert, Gasol, DJ, Brow ... that's a much more formidable crop of centers than what D12 was going against in his prime, like heads above.



>that's not what the HOF criteria is though, and it never
>really has been.


no, but it does speak to him reaching his potential or not, and also being able to continue at an all-nba level despite not being in his physical prime. both of those points speak to the major you're not addressing is, which is the same issue rose has: his prime was too short.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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54. "it certainly sounded like you did"
In response to Reply # 52


          

>i actually said for a long time that those guys belonged in,
>particularly gilmore. but i do think there is some retroactive
>correction now that they are seeing successive generations
>have lower standards.

the standards were always lower than what you are presenting them to be. go back and look at some of the guys from the 50's and 60's who were already in Springfield years ago.


>>1st team All-NBA center the past 3 years has been Marc
>Gasol,
>>Deandre and PF Brow masquerading as a C. Howard in his prime
>>today would be getting the same accolades as he did before.
>
>i am talking about right today. KAT, Cousins, Gobert, Gasol,
>DJ, Brow ... that's a much more formidable crop of centers
>than what D12 was going against in his prime, like heads
>above.

yeah that's what I said - Howard in his prime was better than those guys right today. his accolades wouldn't be any different if he was going against them in his prime.


>>that's not what the HOF criteria is though, and it never
>>really has been.
>
>
>no,

then there's really no argument here.


>but it does speak to him reaching his potential or not,
>and also being able to continue at an all-nba level despite
>not being in his physical prime.

neither of those are HOF criteria. and Dwight was able to continue at an all-nba level after his back injury despite not being in his physical prime (made all-nba in LA & 1st year in houston)


both of those points speak to
>the major you're not addressing is, which is the same issue
>rose has: his prime was too short.

I already addressed his prime being short. what you are not addressing is that his accomplishments in his prime together with his continued production after the decline in his physical prime due to injury merit HOF induction by any historical measure.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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57. "i guess 'both of whom i like a lot' qualifies as scathing criticism"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          


>the standards were always lower than what you are presenting
>them to be. go back and look at some of the guys from the 50's
>and 60's who were already in Springfield years ago.

then they pertained more to the teams they played for, if you were on a winning team it enhanced your chances a lot but overall i don't see nearly as many suspect selections as in recent years.


>yeah that's what I said - Howard in his prime was better than
>those guys right today. his accolades wouldn't be any
>different if he was going against them in his prime.

agree to disagree on that, for about three years, sure, for the whole stretch (eight selections, five first team)? eh, i am not as sure.



>
>I already addressed his prime being short. what you are not
>addressing is that his accomplishments in his prime together
>with his continued production after the decline in his
>physical prime due to injury merit HOF induction by any
>historical measure.

like i said, he will get in. i don't doubt it. same with bosh, cwebb, reggie miller and other guys i wouldn't vote for personally.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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59. "it doesn't qualify as a HOF endorsement"
In response to Reply # 57
Mon May-29-17 06:17 PM by 40thStreetBlack

          

particularly when you are bringing them up as an example of weakened HOF standards.


>then they pertained more to the teams they played for, if you
>were on a winning team it enhanced your chances a lot but
>overall i don't see nearly as many suspect selections as in
>recent years.

that's a whole other bag of worms. not sure who all these suspect selections in recent years are who are so much worse than guys who have gotten in before even without playing on big time winning teams though (aside from ABA/international guys, which is a different issue)



>>yeah that's what I said - Howard in his prime was better
>than
>>those guys right today. his accolades wouldn't be any
>>different if he was going against them in his prime.
>
>agree to disagree on that, for about three years, sure, for
>the whole stretch (eight selections, five first team)? eh, i
>am not as sure.

so who would get it over him? cuz as of yet none of the guys you mentioned are better than Dwight in his prime.


>like i said, he will get in. i don't doubt it. same with bosh,
>cwebb, reggie miller and other guys i wouldn't vote for
>personally.

you don't think he merits it though, which is not consistent with what has historically merited HOF induction.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Mon May-29-17 11:16 PM

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62. "RE: it doesn't qualify as a HOF endorsement"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

>particularly when you are bringing them up as an example of
>weakened HOF standards.

we've been posting here for 15 years and i have brought those guys up as guys that should be in over other potential HOF'ers several times. what i said was that now that the standards are falling the HOF *has* to go back and right any wrongs or borderline wrongs. never said they were undeserving in any way.

>

>that's a whole other bag of worms. not sure who all these
>suspect selections in recent years are who are so much worse
>than guys who have gotten in before even without playing on
>big time winning teams though (aside from ABA/international
>guys, which is a different issue)

i don't harp on the international thing, the one guy i thought was iffy was sarunas but i was happy for him anyway.


>so who would get it over him? cuz as of yet none of the guys
>you mentioned are better than Dwight in his prime.

having a longer prime. i think i have been pretty clear on that, the issue is that his prime was too short and while injuries have limited him, they haven't debilitated him. his injuries were also in some part because he took his genetics for granted. this is a guy who was eating about two dozen candy bars a day for much of his career. he also never refined his offensive game. in the end his game was based so much on being 100% physically that he couldn't adjust. think about guys like antonio mcdyess and grant hill who had even more severe injuries, they were able to adjust because they had game between their ears. howard never did.


>you don't think he merits it though, which is not consistent
>with what has historically merited HOF induction.

well the established standards and what i consider standards for the basketball HOF are not congruous, so that's hardly surprising. basketball is a game where you can put up empty numbers or dominate for a while. the guys who are HOF'ers should be the guys who put up substantive numbers and do it for a long time.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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66. "RE: it doesn't qualify as a HOF endorsement"
In response to Reply # 62
Tue May-30-17 03:09 PM by 40thStreetBlack

          

>we've been posting here for 15 years and i have brought those
>guys up as guys that should be in over other potential HOF'ers
>several times. what i said was that now that the standards are
>falling the HOF *has* to go back and right any wrongs or
>borderline wrongs. never said they were undeserving in any

they did not go back and induct them to right any wrongs because of any supposed falling standards, they were inducted because the HOF instituted an ABA committee to recognize the contribution of ABA players to the history of the game.



>>so who would get it over him? cuz as of yet none of the guys
>>you mentioned are better than Dwight in his prime.
>
>having a longer prime. i think i have been pretty clear on
>that, the issue is that his prime was too short and while
>injuries have limited him, they haven't debilitated him. his
>injuries were also in some part because he took his genetics
>for granted. this is a guy who was eating about two dozen
>candy bars a day for much of his career. he also never refined
>his offensive game. in the end his game was based so much on
>being 100% physically that he couldn't adjust. think about
>guys like antonio mcdyess and grant hill who had even more
>severe injuries, they were able to adjust because they had
>game between their ears. howard never did.

what? I asked which of the current centers you listed before are better than Dwight in his prime.


>>you don't think he merits it though, which is not consistent
>>with what has historically merited HOF induction.
>
>well the established standards and what i consider standards
>for the basketball HOF are not congruous, so that's hardly
>surprising. basketball is a game where you can put up empty
>numbers or dominate for a while. the guys who are HOF'ers
>should be the guys who put up substantive numbers and do it
>for a long time.

then you are not discussing the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame, you are discussing the ConcreteCharlie NBA Hall of Fame. which is fine in and of itself, but not what this post is about.

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RandomFact
Member since Dec 10th 2005
8710 posts
Sun May-21-17 04:01 PM

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28. "Spurs would be a great situation for him. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Shit, that would be a great situation all around. They need another creator.

  

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Ashy Achilles
Member since Sep 22nd 2005
4542 posts
Mon May-22-17 11:58 AM

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31. "PLEASE let this happen"
In response to Reply # 28


          

  

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Marauder21
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36. "Agreed"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Wed May-24-17 04:39 PM

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38. "Spurs, Cavs, Dubs, all could use a cheap backup PG"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

Spurs obviously, Cavs could use him in Deron's role, Dubs will have to jettison salary so might lose Livingston, Iggy. Question is how cheap he will play and if they are confident enough in his health.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Wed May-24-17 06:13 PM

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40. "Wolves chatter won't go away."
In response to Reply # 28


          

Maybe Thibs went to the Doc Rivers School of GMs.

I hope he doesn't go to Minnesota. He's really the last thing they need right there. Maybe he could be a good mentor to Dunn but kind of hate his fit on that squad.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Thu Jun-01-17 01:28 PM

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75. "YES. Rose to Spurs."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

  

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TRENDone
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Mon May-22-17 10:13 AM

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29. "#1 pick overall...rookie of the year...youngest MVP..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

smh i have no argument for him tho...

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Sat May-27-17 10:41 PM

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49. "his resume ends there, unfortunately, but it makes him borderline HOF"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Sun May-28-17 09:24 AM

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50. "Just the MVP makes him considerable."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

The Hall won't give a shit about the #1 pick or ROY, as there's countless of both who aren't sniffing in.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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53. "yeah the ROY was barely significant, no. 1 pick means nothing"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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56. "the fuck y'all talking about? barring a miraculous career resurrection"
In response to Reply # 50


          

he's nowhere near borderline HOF or close to consideration. the MVP will just be a footnote.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Mon May-29-17 12:42 AM

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58. "i dunno we have seen guys with short primes get in"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

no he wasnt as good at his peak as walton and no he didn't have a single tragic accident like stokes but those guys set a precedent for extenuating circumstance.

i would say HOF, no, but borderline? sure, the MVP alone is such a strong predictor and it's not like he played one MVP year and died, he had a couple good years leading up to it.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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60. "not that short"
In response to Reply # 58


          

>no he wasnt as good at his peak as walton and no he didn't
>have a single tragic accident like stokes but those guys set a
>precedent for extenuating circumstance.

Walton won a chip, plus 2 more in college as one of the greatest college players ever. he got in largely if not primarily because of his college career. and stokes' extenuating circumstance is a pretty singular one (and truth be told he actually had a longer prime than Rose did.)


>i would say HOF, no, but borderline? sure, the MVP alone is
>such a strong predictor and it's not like he played one MVP
>year and died, he had a couple good years leading up to it.

correlation is not causation. the fact that every other MVP winner is a HOFer does not automatically grant Rose a HOF pass. he had 2 1/2 seasons as a star player, and only had 1 great season. he only made All-NBA once, meanwhile Howard made All-NBA 8x and 1st team 5x yet you think Dwight's prime was too short. you're all over the place here.

___________________

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ConcreteCharlie
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Mon May-29-17 11:11 PM

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61. "geez dude you are really pulling teeth in this fucking thread"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

you are repeating exactly what i said about walton above. i know. relax. rose is probably not getting in but falling standards and the MVP give him a remote AF chance. not really worth this many keystrokes but OK.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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67. "nah you just all over the fucking place in here"
In response to Reply # 61


          

>you are repeating exactly what i said about walton above.

if by repeating exactly you mean saying something entirely different then sure.


>know. relax. rose is probably not getting in but falling
>standards and the MVP give him a remote AF chance. not really
>worth this many keystrokes but OK.

as it stands now he has no chance. the supposed falling standards you keep harping on and MVP do not give him even a borderline or remote chance.

___________________

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Tue May-30-17 03:53 PM

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68. "I said the same thing above."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

We don't disagree.

As I said, the only reason *anyone* would consider him *at all* right now is his MVP. Otherwise, this post wouldn't even exist.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
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40thStreetBlack
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70. "u said a bench vet ring gets him in, I said miracle career resurrection"
In response to Reply # 68


          

that's not the same thing. a GP in '06 bench ring does not get him in.

___________________

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
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Thu Jun-01-17 12:15 PM

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74. "honestly, i can't even call it. there really is no precedent."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

if the MVP alone were enough to get him in, it wouldn't shock me.

and if he never comes even remotely close to getting the necessary votes, i also wouldn't be surprised in the least.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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40thStreetBlack
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76. "there isn't, but it's just not gonna happen."
In response to Reply # 74
Fri Jun-02-17 03:16 PM by 40thStreetBlack

          

like I said above, the fact that every other MVP either is or will be in the HOF does not mean the MVP alone is enough to get you in. Every other MVP has a body of work besides just winning a Podoloff to base his induction on. Rose really doesn't. It's not his fault, dude's knee exploded at 23, just a really unfortunate turn of events, but that happens in sports sometimes.

___________________

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
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Tue May-30-17 05:01 AM

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63. "We have really normalized partying off injuries, huh?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Tue May-30-17 03:55 PM

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69. "Who in here is partying?"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

Saying Rose isn't a Hall of Famer isn't in the same galaxy as partying.

I'm pretty sure everyone in here would agree that if Rose had healthy 80-game seasons the last six years uninterrupted, he'd be on everyone's short-list for real HOF consideration.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
18569 posts
Tue May-30-17 09:59 AM

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65. "Probably, but he played his best ball in years this season"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue May-30-17 09:59 AM by DJR

  

          

So it's not out of the realm of possibility that he has another all star season or two and puts together 5-6 more productive seasons and strengthens his resume.

I wouldn't count on it, but you never know. On the right team, it could be possible.

  

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