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Subject: "your NBA MVP this year" Previous topic | Next topic
SooperEgo
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11338 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 10:54 AM

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"Poll question: your NBA MVP this year"


          

YOUR mvp. not who you think is gonna get it

Poll result (51 votes)
James Harden (11 votes)Vote
Russell Westbrook (28 votes)Vote
Lebron (3 votes)Vote
Kawhi (4 votes)Vote
Isaiah Thomas (2 votes)Vote
somebody else or they'll do co-MVPs (3 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
...
Mar 29th 2017
1
james harden's case for mvp in seven charts.
Mar 29th 2017
3
      TL:DR. MVP IS RUSS.
Mar 29th 2017
9
mr. triple double.
Mar 29th 2017
2
he's got my vote
Mar 29th 2017
5
I've seen IT get subbed out on def possessions in crunch time too much
Mar 29th 2017
4
First guy to average a triple double in 50+ years and
Mar 29th 2017
6
and the guy who did it then, only came in 3rd place...
Mar 29th 2017
8
      Has the NBA ever had Co-MVPs?
Mar 29th 2017
10
           RE: Has the NBA ever had Co-MVPs?
Mar 29th 2017
11
           they way they do the voting its basically mathematically impossible
Mar 29th 2017
25
           No, it's very difficult. Very strange that they had a co-ROY in 1995 eve...
Mar 29th 2017
45
                someone I was listening to last night or this morning explained that...
Mar 30th 2017
55
                     yeah mvp you rank guys 1-5.
Mar 30th 2017
60
                          First place votes is the tiebreak but that could easily be a tie, no?
Mar 31st 2017
82
Kawhi
Mar 29th 2017
7
I would vote Russy-Harden-Kawhi-LeBron-Thomas
Mar 29th 2017
12
and you're vote would be the right one, IMO.
Mar 29th 2017
13
      It's tough, I mean I don't begrudge anyone voting Harden
Mar 29th 2017
26
Harden
Mar 29th 2017
14
Co-MVP with Harden and Westbrook
Mar 29th 2017
15
I'm going Harden bc of their record.
Mar 29th 2017
16
Since Co-MVP's probably isn't an option...
Mar 29th 2017
17
We had co-ROY in 95
Mar 29th 2017
18
Cowens and Petrie split ROY also but voting process is a bit different
Mar 31st 2017
81
Bron...
Mar 29th 2017
19
So you are DQing Russ and Harden because they've played every game??
Mar 29th 2017
21
i'm not, but it seems you are...
Mar 29th 2017
23
      and you don't think those results indicate anything about the REST...
Mar 29th 2017
24
           obviously you voted for Russ...
Mar 29th 2017
28
                He's right though. Context matters. In many of those Bron games
Mar 29th 2017
30
                but winning DOESN'T matter. not if the criteria is MOST VALUABLE.
Mar 29th 2017
31
                     lol take harden off the roster and have bev play starting pg
Mar 29th 2017
32
                     i never said they would be a good team, but their roster is MUCH better.
Mar 29th 2017
34
                          already looked and No it isnt
Mar 29th 2017
41
                               Great post...dem goggles in full effect
Mar 29th 2017
43
                               http://i.imgur.com/xFBMwrE.jpg
Mar 29th 2017
44
                               i don't even care what you wrote.
Mar 30th 2017
54
                               that took me all of 38 seconds to re-read
Mar 30th 2017
57
                               all that says is that Harden was better than ppl expected tho
Mar 30th 2017
68
                                    Thats not 100% NOT true
Mar 30th 2017
70
                                         but 2016 is the rub
Mar 30th 2017
71
                     In the context of the voting, winning absolutely matters
Mar 29th 2017
42
interesting contributions but not sure they convince me as standards
Mar 29th 2017
27
Terrible argument. Why only look at 20 games??
Mar 29th 2017
37
      was that to me or the guy i responded to?
Mar 29th 2017
46
           Yeah to builtwhatever, my bad
Mar 29th 2017
50
4 of 7 with kawhi sitting came vs GARBAGE
Mar 29th 2017
39
      yeah this argument is pretty trash w/o more context
Mar 29th 2017
47
Harden is tough and all
Mar 29th 2017
20
That might be D'Antoni as well.
Mar 29th 2017
22
Harden or Kawhi.
Mar 29th 2017
29
Kawhi a my #2 especially when I consider his h2h vs the field
Mar 29th 2017
33
the poll results are interesting
Mar 29th 2017
35
I feel like the analytics community wants Harden to win though
Mar 29th 2017
51
      I agree with this. The analytcs community loves Harden
Mar 30th 2017
59
Russ, Harden, Kawhi, Bron, Wall
Mar 29th 2017
36
Kawhi has prob played the best overall. Not that that's the criteria.
Mar 29th 2017
38
Kawhi
Mar 29th 2017
40
Westbrook
Mar 29th 2017
48
LOL OH let me guess i
Mar 29th 2017
49
bunch of BUMS
Mar 29th 2017
52
      don't do that man...you on a higher level than this...
Mar 30th 2017
56
      He actually did in the other post
Mar 30th 2017
58
           cool...have at it
Mar 30th 2017
62
                Appreciate It D
Mar 30th 2017
72
                     all good, fam...
Mar 30th 2017
74
      Idgaf about where they picked. None of em are nice. Not a one.
Mar 30th 2017
61
           Again, thats revisionist
Mar 30th 2017
63
                how is it revisionist to point out how OKC's roster is no good?
Mar 30th 2017
64
                     are you gonna take the time to read and engage
Mar 30th 2017
65
                     not if you're gonna try to tell me how Domantas Sabonis...
Mar 30th 2017
67
                          RE: not if you're gonna try to tell me how Domantas Sabonis...
Mar 30th 2017
69
                               but that's who we got, man...Roberson is our starting SF
Mar 30th 2017
77
                                    no, stop! that's too much like making sense man!
Mar 30th 2017
78
                                    Offensive spacing is just one part of the game, lol cmon
Mar 31st 2017
96
                                         ? I brought up Roberson specifically...
Mar 31st 2017
98
                                              I've seen Roberson AIRBALL wide open uncontested 3s Russ gets him
Mar 31st 2017
100
                                              I see Anderson not close-out, not tag cutters, not rotate every game
Mar 31st 2017
109
                                              I know the context but you only brought up his weaknesses
Mar 31st 2017
108
                     idk if it's revisionist to realize niggas is sorry af. then theres not m...
Mar 30th 2017
66
they just clinched b/w, what, are the rockets good?
Mar 29th 2017
53
      No, The Rockets Are Not Good Without Harden
Mar 30th 2017
73
           Barkley said Thunder were most talented team in the league last year
Mar 30th 2017
75
           i don't think anybody disagrees that harden's cast is better...
Mar 30th 2017
76
                and i will say it again!
Mar 30th 2017
79
                That's the thing, that has been totally disregarded in the NBA
Mar 31st 2017
90
the way too long didnt read bulleted summary of my tl;dr
Mar 31st 2017
80
The key difference is really Ariza vs. Roberson
Mar 31st 2017
84
RE: The key difference is really Ariza vs. Roberson
Mar 31st 2017
89
      In an era of 3&D wings, it's hard to get away w/ a 25% shooter
Mar 31st 2017
94
           RE: In an era of 3&D wings, it's hard to get away w/ a 25% shooter
Mar 31st 2017
95
                For the same reason Prince Moute plays in the first 3 quarters
Mar 31st 2017
97
                     people kinda chuckled when I started #playoffdion...
Mar 31st 2017
101
Basically agree but let's not act like foresight necessarily > hindsight
Mar 31st 2017
86
      Sure
Mar 31st 2017
91
btw:
Mar 31st 2017
83
Well, of course
Mar 31st 2017
85
      exposed him in what way? he had a genuinely shitty game...
Mar 31st 2017
88
           New MVP rules from boxing "unwritten" rules have been instated
Mar 31st 2017
92
           RE: exposed him in what way? he had a genuinely shitty game...
Mar 31st 2017
93
                so, did Harden get "exposed", too...
Mar 31st 2017
99
                     RE: so, did Harden get "exposed", too...
Mar 31st 2017
102
                          but this isnt about who the best player is but who's having the best yea...
Mar 31st 2017
103
                          This season it's become "Who's numbers are the best with the worst..."
Mar 31st 2017
104
                               Eh I dunno I think that is overblown and it's only for two guys
Mar 31st 2017
111
                          James Harden "ball stopper"
Mar 31st 2017
105
                               right...there is literally no way you could watch Houston and come
Mar 31st 2017
106
                               I admit that applied to him a lot more last season.
Mar 31st 2017
107
                               but that was the cherry on top of your post lol
Apr 01st 2017
112
                               Tropes, get your tropes here! Only 2 for a dollah
Mar 31st 2017
110
how you view harden vs westbrook says a lot about you.
Mar 31st 2017
87
/shrug
May 11th 2017
113

dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 11:00 AM

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1. "..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.si.com/nba/2017/03/27/james-harden-nba-mvp-case-rockets-russell-westbrook

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 11:35 AM

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3. "james harden's case for mvp in seven charts."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

James Harden's Case For MVP In Seven Charts
BEN GOLLIVER
Monday March 27th, 2017

Mercifully, the never-ending MVP debate between James Harden, Russell Westbrook, LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard is nearing a conclusion. Harden’s Rockets scored a convincing victory over Westbrook’s Thunder on Sunday, giving Houston a 3–1 series lead this season and dropping Westbrook to 3–9 against the Rockets, Warriors, Spurs and Cavaliers.

But viewing that latest head-to-head result as the turning point in this conversation would be a mistake. Ditto for backing Leonard on the basis of his sensational block on Harden a few weeks back. This season, the individual performances have been so far off the charts that they demand a wider lens, one that takes into account recent history, MVP comparison points and team performance.

With those factors in mind, let’s make the case for Harden as MVP in seven charts and tables.


1. James Harden’s averages are off the charts

The strongest argument for Westbrook as MVP is, without a doubt, his historic run at becoming the first player since 1962 Oscar Robertson to average a triple double. Entering Monday’s action, Westbrook was averaging 31.3 points, 10.5 rebounds and 10.4 assists, insane numbers that most assumed he wouldn’t be able to keep up over the course of an 82-game season. For some voters, the MVP conversation will be determined entirely by whether Westbrook takes his spot alongside Robertson.

Rockets GM Daryl Morey and Houston fans have been vocal in recent weeks that this conversation shouldn’t boil down to “Triple doubles or bust.” The gist of their argument is that the triple double cut-offs are an arbitrary measure and that Westbrook’s ability to average a few more rebounds than Harden shouldn’t override Houston’s advantage in the standings and Harden’s many other merits.

It should be obvious that both sides have merit: Triple doubles can be magical, eye-popping and a handy measure of superb value without being the end-all, be-all for the NBA’s most coveted award. The real danger in focusing on Westbrook’s triple doubles comes in overlooking Harden’s own historic stat line. Entering Monday, Harden was averaging 29.4 points, 8 rebounds and 11.3 assists, numbers that haven’t been matched by any player, including Westbrook, since Robertson in 1965. James, meanwhile, has also posted crazy numbers even by his incredibly high standards (26.1 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 8.8 APG).

To provide better context, let’s look at how Westbrook, Harden and James shape up against the 10 most productive NBA MVPs of the three-point era. In the following chart, a player’s points, rebounds and assists are added together to measure their overall per-game production. This year’s players appear in red and are marked with an asterisk.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2017/03/27/harden-mvp-1.jpg

Note that both Westbrook and Harden currently top every single NBA MVP in combined points, rebounds and assists. That includes peak Michael Jordan, peak James, peak Larry Bird, peak Magic Johnson and super productive centers like Shaquille O’Neal and Moses Malone.

While Westbrook supporters might see his No. 1 ranking on this chart as fuel for the argument that this should be an open-and-shut case, a more balanced read would conclude that their concurrent dominance warrants a deeper look at other possible factors. Think about it this way: Would Westbrook really be “snubbed” if he was beat out for MVP by a player with more combined points/rebounds/assists than any other MVP since 1980? The answer to that rhetorical question should be a firm “No.”

...

2. Harden holds noticeable shooting efficiency advantage

The chart above clearly establishes that both Westbrook and Harden have been monster producers, the likes of which the NBA hasn’t seen in the modern era. But how, exactly, are they getting it done?

A quick glance at their shooting splits might lead to the conclusion that Harden holds a narrow lead:

• Harden: 44.8 FG%, 35.2 3P%, 84.8 FT%
• Westbrook: 42.2 FG%, 33.6 3P%, 83.9 FT%

However, Harden’s better overall shooting coupled with his much greater reliance on the three-point ball—he’s the only player other than Stephen Curry to attempt nine threes per game—gives him a clear True Shooting Percentage advantage. Entering Monday, Harden boasted a 62 TS% and Westbrook owned a 54.9 TS%.

The following chart, which compares True Shooting Percentage to Usage Rate, should help provide some context for what that means. This chart includes every MVP from the three-point era along with Harden, Westbrook, LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard, the consensus top-four MVP candidates this year. This year’s are marked with an asterisk.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2017/03/27/harden-mvp-2.jpg

This chart is fascinating for a few reasons. First, note that Westbrook’s record-setting 40.7 Usage Rate makes him a complete anomaly compared to MVP winners. He’s using way more possessions than 2001 Allen Iverson and 1998 Michael Jordan, who both rank among the most ball-dominant MVP winners since 1980.

Second, though, note how recent MVP winners—guys like 2016 Curry, 2015 Curry, 2014 Kevin Durant, 2013 James—have managed to maintain very high True Shooting Percentage numbers despite healthy usage rates. Also note how Harden, James and Leonard all fit the high-usage, high-efficiency mold this year while Westbrook (sky-high usage, mediocre efficiency) clearly does not.

Third, and most importantly, Harden is a more impressive outlier on this chart than Westbrook. His usage rate currently exceeds Jordan’s MVP seasons while his efficiency exceeds all three of his major MVP competitors plus a vast majority of the MVP winners over the past 37 years. The ideal lead option shoulders a monster burden without killing his shooting numbers. Harden, like Curry, Durant and James before him, fits that bill. Westbrook doesn’t.

...

3. Harden gets his points in the best ways

Over the last decade, Houston has played a central role in reshaping how basketball is played. The simplest version of this story should be familiar by now: three-pointers, lay-ups and free throws are “good shots” while contested mid-range shots are “bad shots.”

This season, coach Mike D’Antoni’s Rockets have been neck-and-neck with the Warriors when it comes to both offensive rating and True Shooting Percentage. That’s a remarkable feat given that Houston has just one All-Star, while Golden State has four.

While Harden ranks in the top 20 in baskets made in the restricted area, he has truly distinguished himself as a combo three-point shooter and foul-drawer. This table shows which players have scored the most combined points from behind the arc and at the line during the Three-Point Era. Note that Harden still has nine games left to play and will soon pass his own mark from last year and likely finish second to 2016 Curry on this list. That’s no shame, by the way: Curry shattered every three-point shooting record in the book last season. This year’s players appear in red and are marked with an asterisk.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2017/03/27/harden-mvp-3.jpg

Harden’s placement on this chart isn’t trivial. Under D’Antoni, Houston has successfully translated his individual strengths—range, power on the ball, craftiness—into defining team-wide attributes, ranking first in both three-point attempts and free throws attempts. As with Curry’s extraterrestrial three-point shooting ability in recent years, MVP voters would do well to reward Harden’s ability to craft a clear identity and playing style for his team this season.

...

4. Harden is the NBA’s most productive playmaker for others

Harden would have an MVP case based on his volume scoring and pronounced role alone. But that’s really only half the story when it comes to his offensive impact. A gifted, confident passer with brilliant pick-and-roll orchestrating skills and impressive cross-court vision, Harden has flourished as a play-maker for others in his “new” point guard role under D’Antoni.

For background: Harden’s 11.3 assists per game would place him in the top-five all-time among MVPs, topping everyone except Johnson (1987, 1989, 1990) and Nash (2005). That’s right: Harden is putting up better assist totals than Steve Nash, Oscar Robertson, LeBron James and others during all of their MVP campaigns.

But even that undersells his ability to generate offense for his teammates because so many of his assists lead to three-pointers for teammates like Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, Patrick Beverley and midseason addition Lou Williams. Indeed, Harden’s 27.5 points generated by assist leads the league this season by a healthy margin and it’s the highest mark posted during the four seasons the stat has been tabulated by NBA.com.

This chart shows the top 10 play-makers of the past four seasons, as judged by most points generated by their assists. This year’s players appear in red and are marked with an asterisk.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2017/03/27/harden-mvp-4.jpg

Note that Harden tops Westbrook, James, Chris Paul and a host of other premier passers in this category. Amazingly, he even edges 2016 Rajon Rondo, who spent his entire Kings tenure with the sole purpose of chasing passing stats like this one. In Sacramento last year, Rondo’s desire to set up his teammates came at this expense of his own offense and his team’s offensive efficiency numbers. In Houston, Harden’s set-up skills keep his many hungry teammates happy and ensure that defenses pay if they try to load up on him.

...

5. Harden is leading an all-time offense

Now let’s tie some of these threads together. What happens when a player is an elite stat producer, a league-leading playmaker for others, and a finely-tuned efficiency machine surrounded by an offensive system that’s completely designed around him? Well, lots of good things.

Westbrook’s supporters might argue that he, like Harden, is also a prolific one-man offense. The basic offensive efficiency numbers show a clear separation between the outfits driven by these two players: The Rockets’ attack ranks No. 2 overall while the Thunder ranks No. 15. Simply put, Houston has been excellent while Oklahoma City has been average.

Yes, Westbrook is singlehandedly propping up the Thunder. When he leaves the court, Oklahoma City’s offensive rating drops by 10.5 points. By comparison, Houston’s offensive efficiency drops 6.8 points without Harden, in part because D’Antoni has a deeper supply of scoring weapons and shooters at his disposal.

What’s more impressive: Carrying a fairly weak cast to an average offense and a good record, or leading a team of non-stars to one of the best offenses in recent memory and one of the league’s best marks?

One can argue that Harden hasn’t gotten enough credit for Houston’s team success this season because he’s playing in Golden State’s shadow. The Rockets’ 115.1 offensive rating is actually the third-best mark of the last decade, trailing only the 2017 Warriors and the 2010 Suns. In most years, Harden would be leading the league’s most potent attack. In many years, he’d be doing it by a wide margin.

The following chart shows every team’s offensive rating and winning percentage since 2001. The best teams with the best offenses appear in the upper right corner of the plot while the worst teams and the worst offenses appear in the lower left. This year’s teams appear in red and are marked with an asterisk.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2017/03/27/harden-mvp-5.jpg

Note that the 2017 Rockets are a clear outlier. Their performance has been absolutely amazing, albeit not quite as amazing as the 2017 Warriors. The visual effect here should help reinforce how special Houston’s season has been offensively. When viewing the NBA’s last 17 seasons, Harden’s Rockets definitely stand out from the crowd.

...

6. Harden is the focal point of a cutting-edge attack

Let’s be honest: style points and narrative wind up mattering a lot in the MVP conversation. Once Durant left in free agency, Westbrook was rightfully anointed as David to the Warriors’ Goliath. His insane usage, relentless approach, near-nightly triple doubles and clutch performances combine to reinforce his case as an underdog who stops at nothing to will his team to victories. Part of Westbrook’s charm is his eagerness to race head first into every challenge, no matter how difficult.

Harden’s approach, as evidenced in Houston’s 137–125 thrashing of Oklahoma City on Sunday, has been different. His defining characteristic has been to make the difficult look easy. That can come in many forms: behind-the-back passes to shooters, threaded dimes to alley-oop finishes, stomping drives for lay-ups, step-back three-pointers, end-to-end baskets in transition, you name it.

For the Thunder, it often feels like every basket and many of their wins are a struggle. For the Rockets, the points come early and often, and they rarely cease. Sunday’s win was Houston’s 19th team topping 125 points, a league-leading mark. It was also the 10th time this season they have connected on at least 20 threes, which is more than every other NBA team combined.

Three-pointers have been all the rage for a number of years, so sometimes that trend can have a blurring effect. After all, the Warriors still have the Splash Brothers, the Cavaliers have been launching more than ever, and everyone from the respectable Celtics to the pathetic Nets have taken to bombing in volume this year. With that in mind, it’s critical to note that Houston remains in a class entirely by itself when it comes to the three-pointer and that its strength in that category has had an aesthetic impact. Harden and the Rockets have “made it look easy” on so many nights this year because they are spectacularly effective at, and spectacularly committed to, the sport’s most devastating weapon.

This chart shows just how far ahead Houston remains from the rest of the pack when it comes to launching from deep. This year’s Rockets appear in red and other 2017 teams are marked with an asterisk.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2017/03/27/harden-mvp-6.jpg

Note that this chart covers the entire Three-Point Era; the top 10 teams in terms of three-point attempts have all taken place in the last three years. These teams include some of the league’s best players—Curry, James, etc.—and some of its highest-performing offenses. And yet Harden’s Rockets remain way out in front.

The Harden/Westbrook choice for voters on this topic is straightforward. Is it really wise to reward Westbrook for the difficulty of his feats if Harden has mastered a more effective, less grisly approach? This same argument, by the way, applied to Curry’s MVP candidacies in 2015 and 2016. “Scoring easily” should be viewed as the real virtue, even if “scoring hard” often commands more attention.

...

7. Harden’s Rockets are the NBA’s biggest overachievers

The bounce-back nature of Harden’s season is perhaps the easiest conversational strain for many observers to grasp. No Dwight Howard! No Khloe Kardashian! No excess weight! No early-season coaching drama! New teammates! Harden is a new man!

Overly crediting Harden for Houston’s turnaround would be a mistake. He must remain accountable for the Rockets’ messy 2015-16 season given his personality conflict with Howard, his off-court distractions and his slow start. Voting for any candidate primarily because he turned in a better season than the year before would be a mistake. Meanwhile, Westbrook’s supporters might argue that Harden has better teammates and that the Thunder, who are the West’s No. 6 seed and could move up, have also significantly overachieved.

A look back at preseason expectations, however, tells a different story. Back in October, oddsmaking service Bovada set Houston’s over-under line at 44 and Oklahoma City’s line at 43.5. In other words, Las Vegas viewed these two teams as virtually identical when the season opened. Since then, the Rockets (51-22) are on a 57-win pace while the Thunder (41-31) are on a 47-win pace. That’s a major gap in performance.

As it turns out, the Rockets haven’t just outpaced the Thunder when it comes to overachieving, they’ve blown away the entire league. This chart compares the preseason over/under lines to current winning percentage to determine the league’s biggest overachievers. Houston is tops by a healthy margin and appears in red.

http://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2017/03/27/harden-mvp-7.jpg

...

To boil down the results of this exercise, Harden’s MVP case looks like this:

1. His per-game numbers are unmatched by any MVP since 1980

2. His efficiency/usage numbers are in line with recent MVP winners and better than his fellow MVP candidates

3. His preferred methods for scoring are directly in line with current best practices

4. He is the most productive playmaker for his teammates in the league

5. He is the engine of one of the most effective and forward-thinking offenses in recent memory

6. He excels at making the game look easy

7. And his team is the NBA’s biggest overachiever and boasts one of the league’s best records.

There are arguments to be made for other candidates, including Westbrook, and voters should wait to make their final decisions until the season ends in a few weeks. As it stands now, though, Harden deserves to be viewed as the clear frontrunner.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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PROMO
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Wed Mar-29-17 12:38 PM

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9. "TL:DR. MVP IS RUSS."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
85076 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 11:12 AM

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2. "mr. triple double."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Oak27
Member since Apr 17th 2005
13192 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 12:10 PM

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5. "he's got my vote"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Harden may have the Rockets with a better record but I can't imagine where OKC would be without Russ this year.

  

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Oak27
Member since Apr 17th 2005
13192 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 12:10 PM

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4. "I've seen IT get subbed out on def possessions in crunch time too much"
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to call him and MVP

  

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Innocent Criminal
Member since May 03rd 2003
14586 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 12:20 PM

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6. "First guy to average a triple double in 50+ years and "
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we're debating if someone else deserves MVP. If he ends the season with the triple double, there shouldn't be any question.

________________________________
There are dozens of us! Dozens!

  

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Dstl1
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Wed Mar-29-17 12:31 PM

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8. "and the guy who did it then, only came in 3rd place..."
In response to Reply # 6


          

in the MVP vote. I think it'd be dope if they just made Russ/Harden Co-MVPs...it's a shame that one of them won't win.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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Innocent Criminal
Member since May 03rd 2003
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Wed Mar-29-17 12:46 PM

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10. "Has the NBA ever had Co-MVPs?"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

________________________________
There are dozens of us! Dozens!

  

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Numba_33
Charter member
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11. "RE: Has the NBA ever had Co-MVPs?"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

http://tinyurl.com/mapqpy2

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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ThaTruth
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25. "they way they do the voting its basically mathematically impossible "
In response to Reply # 10


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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45. "No, it's very difficult. Very strange that they had a co-ROY in 1995 eve..."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Dstl1
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55. "someone I was listening to last night or this morning explained that..."
In response to Reply # 45


          

I'm prolly gonna fuck it up, but I think the jist was that there were simply three choices...vote for one. With the MVP there's 5 ways to split the vote, so less chance two people could end up with the exact same number of votes. Like I said...I might have gotten that a bit sideways. Think I was half asleep when I heard it.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
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Thu Mar-30-17 12:21 PM

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60. "yeah mvp you rank guys 1-5. "
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

but you got like 100+ dudes voting. A tie could happen but it its very unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a tie breaker scenario like who had the most 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place votes.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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82. "First place votes is the tiebreak but that could easily be a tie, no?"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

In the ROY tie of 95 both Hill and Kidd got 43 first-place votes and that is why it was a tie.

It's tougher here but not impossible. I don't think if they get the same number of overall points in the voting and first place is a tie that they move onto other tie-breakers. I think it would just be a tie. Maybe Dula or someone knows better.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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7. "Kawhi"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Wed Mar-29-17 01:00 PM

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12. "I would vote Russy-Harden-Kawhi-LeBron-Thomas"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And the crazy thing is that in any given year, all five guys could have WON the award, not just been top vote-getters. In Russy and Harden's case it's almost in every given year.

Harden's game has gone to another level and his team has exceeded expectations big time behind him. His ascent is kind of Nash-ish and that was good enough to win two straight MVPs. The only thing is that all the arguments for him happen on one side of the floor and as important as he is to his team, Russ is more important to the Thunder. A product of that dependency is his high volume of everything and Big O-esque averages.

I wouldn't be at all mad if Harden got it though, he only has a little more to work with and he is doing his thing with tremendous efficiency.

Kawhi and LeBron are pretty similar, they are the engines of great teams. Leonard is a better defensive player at this point night in and night out; that's not close. I think not getting individual accolades is fine with him.

Thomas is having like a Tiny Archibald or AI type season, absent a stronger candidate he would have won it. Great season for him.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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PROMO
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13. "and you're vote would be the right one, IMO."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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26. "It's tough, I mean I don't begrudge anyone voting Harden"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Crazy if he finishes second because he had an MVP-level year and lost out to Steph.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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14. "Harden "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

More efficient than Russ and a top 3 record @ a clip of 29-11-8. Incredible

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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go mack
Member since May 02nd 2008
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Wed Mar-29-17 01:57 PM

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15. "Co-MVP with Harden and Westbrook"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

their stats are just too close, each played every game. Harden is averaging 8 boards a game himself along with 1 more assist per game than Russ. Its too tough to give one over the other.

  

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
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16. "I'm going Harden bc of their record."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Wed Mar-29-17 02:14 PM

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17. "Since Co-MVP's probably isn't an option..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I have to go with Harden.

It's insane that, in the same year, one dude is averaging 29, 11, and 8, and one guy is averaging 31, 10, and 10. It's truly insane.

But either of these guys could win (or both) and I wouldn't be mad.

Hell, any other year...Kawhi would be running away with this.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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melmag
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18. "We had co-ROY in 95"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

wit Hill & Kidd, why not co-MVP??

they should just scrap the voting process this yr and just declare a tie. I really hate to see one lose out, It'd be almost be a wasted effort

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Fri Mar-31-17 11:23 AM

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81. "Cowens and Petrie split ROY also but voting process is a bit different"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

You have 1st/2nd/3rd place votes for ROY. But there are 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th place votes for MVP, making a tie much less likely.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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builtfromwax
Member since May 01st 2007
1879 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 03:06 PM

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19. "Bron..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...there's value in winning. that's what sports are about. numbers are nice, but they don't matter if you lose. so, let's take the top 10 games (based on GmSc per http://bkref.com) of each of these players and look at their team's W-L record in those games:

Bron 10-0
Isaiah 9-1
Harden 6-4
Russ 5-5
AD 6-4
Giannis 8-2
Kawhi 7-3

let's look at top 20 games:

Bron 17-3
Isaiah 13-7
Harden 14-6
Russ 13-7
AD 9-11
Giannis 13-7
Kawhi 16-4

but what happens when these player don't play?

well, Russ & Harden have played every game this season. no way to tell their impact when they don't play. everyone else?

Bron 0-6
Isaiah 2-4
AD 2-2
Giannis 0-1
Kawhi 6-1

the Spurs seem to win regardless, that knocks Kawhi out. Giannis is the youngest guy on this list and has so much potential to get even BETTER! AD is a monster statistically, but the wins aren't there. the Celtics certainly need Isaiah. we know what Cleveland looks like w/o Bron.

folk gon' vote Russ based on his numbers. but when Bron is at his best, nobody's more valuable to winning than him this season.

  

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
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Wed Mar-29-17 03:18 PM

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21. "So you are DQing Russ and Harden because they've played every game??"
In response to Reply # 19


          

You can't evaluate them using your methodology so you're not considering them? LMAO

  

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builtfromwax
Member since May 01st 2007
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23. "i'm not, but it seems you are..."
In response to Reply # 21


          

...so let's go 10 worst games for Russ and Harden:

Harden 6-4
Russ 1-9

so, for his 10 worst games Russ' team is ass. but he's gotten triple doubles in 2 of those games and they lost both of 'em. where's the value in that? he might as well not even play. even in his 10 best statistical games, they're a .500 team.

Houston is above .500 even at Harden's statistical worst and one could argue that even then, he helps his team win. there's value in that. he also got a triple double in one of his 10 worst games, but his team won. he should DEFINITELY get the MVP nod before Russ, after all...it's about winning.

Bron at his statistical worse doesn't fare too well, they're 3-7 in those games.

  

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PROMO
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24. "and you don't think those results indicate anything about the REST..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

of the roster each player is a part off?

Russ's BEST games and the team still loses?

That's why Russ is MVP for me. It's completely comical to imagine ANY OKC success w/out Russ. Thus, by that definition, he's most valuable.

And before you say "when Bron doesn't play the Cavs are 0-6 so what does that say about his roster" i would just say, c'mon dawg, let's not go there. they can win w/out Bron but when Bron don't play the rest of the team takes the night off too. Also, pretty sure some of the times Bron sat, so did Kyrie (and obviously Love too since he was hurt for a good number of games).

to sum, Russ is carrying the worst team (of all the teams that an MVP contender plays for) to the playoffs while posting a triple double. that's all * I * need to know to know who's MVP.

  

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builtfromwax
Member since May 01st 2007
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Wed Mar-29-17 04:40 PM

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28. "obviously you voted for Russ..."
In response to Reply # 24


          

...that's cool. but Harden more valuable. winning matters.

  

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Mignight Maruder
Member since Nov 30th 2003
7717 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 05:01 PM

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30. "He's right though. Context matters. In many of those Bron games"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

Love and/or Kyrie sat out too so you're numbers/formula needs some context to have merit.
Also, it would help to know the context of the matchups.

  

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PROMO
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31. "but winning DOESN'T matter. not if the criteria is MOST VALUABLE."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

take Harden off the Rockets and look at the remaining roster and what that team could do.

take Russ of OKC and look at that roster and what THAT team could do.

so, who's more valuable?

one guy is putting up historical numbers leading a really good squad to the playoffs.

the other is putting up historical numbers leading a really shitty squad to the playoffs.

now, if the award is MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER, i think the debate would be tougher but to me it don't get more outstanding than averaging a triple double.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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Wed Mar-29-17 05:28 PM

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32. "lol take harden off the roster and have bev play starting pg"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

You have a whole different team.

A lot of folks would take Oladipo over the rockets second best player.
A lot of folks would still take Adams over capela
And kanter over nene for example

The rest of houstons roster is more well rounded but harden is what makes that machine work

You really telling me

Bev
Gordon
Ariza
Anderson
Capela

Would be a good team with not harden?

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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PROMO
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34. "i never said they would be a good team, but their roster is MUCH better."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

http://www.nba.com/thunder/roster/

or

http://www.nba.com/rockets/roster/

this is an easy choice.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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Wed Mar-29-17 06:14 PM

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41. "already looked and No it isnt"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

The rockets are playing above expectations. You look at that roster preseason and nobody said they were better. A big part of why theyre better now is cause of Harden

I posted other links in the other post. Im not even cherry picking links here. Youd be hard pressed to find anyone (on this board included) that thought the Thunder were not a better team prior to the season. Even when it was close, most people still had Thunder ahead by 1 game.


Everyone looking at this shit with hindsight goggles.



http://www.nba.com/article/2016/10/05/2016-17-season-preview-houston-rockets
http://www.nba.com/article/2016/10/03/2016-17-season-preview-oklahoma-city-thunder


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2664038-nba-predictions-2016-17-win-loss-projections-for-every-team-pre-training-camp
Rockets 11
38-44
Losing Dwight Howard is a big deal, even if he's being replaced by promising young center Clint Capela. For all the knocks Howard took during his tenure with the Houston Rockets—and plenty of them were legitimate—his interior defense, pick-and-roll work and rebounding made him a distinct plus. The team was undeniably better when he was on the floor.

Capela will mitigate some of the negative impact, but he's by no means as effective a two-way force. Replacing Howard will be a joint effort, which makes a resurgent season from Nene more of a need than a desire.

The Rockets did add talent during the offseason, and it was nicely spread throughout the roster. But this squad still lacks convincing depth at some spots and is counting on a host of one-way players (and coach Mike D'Antoni) being cancelled out by the few plus-defenders who earn significant run.

Houston will remain in the playoff race for much of the year, especially with James Harden running the show and looking to another MVP bid. But after an offseason in which plenty of Western Conference teams made substantial strides—whether through summer additions or expected internal improvement—the Rockets didn't do quite enough to avoid a lottery finish.


OKC
West: 7. Oklahoma City Thunder: 43-39 READ THAT 3rd PARAGRAPH!!!!
Hearken back to the 2014-15 season, when the Oklahoma City Thunder got only 27 games from Kevin Durant. Without him, OKC still outscored the opposition, albeit by a mere 0.1 points per 100 possessions. During the 55 contests he missed, it even mustered up a 28-27 record while Russell Westbrook led the charge.

A similar situation should unfold in 2016-17: Durant is now on the Golden State Warriors, and Westbrook is the clear-cut alpha dog after signing an extension that left little doubt about his status as the team leader.

Westbrook has a palatable group of players surrounding him, and he's grown even better over the last two seasons. He's ready to lead a team into the playoffs almost single-handedly, and the offseason moves made by OKC's front office will ensure he doesn't even have to do that.

Serge Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Dion Waiters and others are gone, but even if we look past potential breakouts from Steven Adams and Cameron Payne, as well as growth from Enes Kanter, the Thunder added plenty of talent by trading for Victor Oladipo and Ersan Ilyasova.

This team is no longer a playoff lock, but it enters the season as a good bet to play more than 82 games—even if it's not many more.


Oh just a 4 game better prediction
http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/2016-2017-nba-season-win-total-odds-and-predictions-092016



http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17862484/2016-17-nba-preview
Win Total Projections
RPM: 45.7 | Las Vegas: 45.5 | ESPN Forecast: 44-38

Win Total Projections
RPM: 46.9 | Las Vegas: 44.5 | ESPN Forecast: 41-41



http://www.basketballinsiders.com/houston-rockets-2016-17-season-preview/
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/oklahoma-city-thunder-2016-17-season-preview/

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 06:39 PM

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43. "Great post...dem goggles in full effect"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Harden's ability to navigate PnR and most importantly always be a willing passer is what makes that Houston team tick...sum > parts due to one key piece.

The 20/20 of winning is always funny. Of course they'd be this good, they are a great team, duh.

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts
Wed Mar-29-17 07:47 PM

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44. "http://i.imgur.com/xFBMwrE.jpg"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

http://i.imgur.com/xFBMwrE.jpg

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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PROMO
Charter member
30978 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 11:54 AM

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54. "i don't even care what you wrote."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

i don't have time to read alladat.

Houston's roster has more talent, period.

Harden, Gordon, Anderson, Ariza, LouWillz, Beverly, Harrell, Nene, Dekker

vs.

Russ, Oladipo, Adams, Kanter, Gibson, McDermott, Christon, Robinson, Grant, Sabonis

Man, if you can't figure out which of those two squads to run with, you need GOGGLES, fuck a Google.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43353 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 12:12 PM

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57. "that took me all of 38 seconds to re-read"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35260 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 03:34 PM

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68. "all that says is that Harden was better than ppl expected tho"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Russ had already shown in 2015 he could be the lead dog on a playoff team, so people went with what they knew

Harden never had, and even with healthy Harden and Dwight couldnt hit 2:1 A:TO

The fact that Harden quieted his doubters isnt an MVP credential in and of itself

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43353 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 03:40 PM

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70. "Thats not 100% NOT true"
In response to Reply # 68
Thu Mar-30-17 03:42 PM by ShawndmeSlanted

  

          

>Russ had already shown in 2015 he could be the lead dog on a
>playoff team, so people went with what they knew
>
>Harden never had, and even with healthy Harden and Dwight
>couldnt hit 2:1 A:TO
>
>The fact that Harden quieted his doubters isnt an MVP
>credential in and of itself


Did we forget about 2014-2015?

2015-2016 was bad for Harden, but if Steph didnt have a historic season 1, 2014-2015 Harden was the MVP


http://www.nba.com/2015/news/05/04/stephen-curry-2014-15-kia-mvp-official-release/


Im gonna chalk this up as you forgetting and not trying to lie


If you remember this was also the 1st year of teh player voted awards and harden won the player vote which caused a minor stir.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35260 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 04:11 PM

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71. "but 2016 is the rub"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

they only beat 4 teams without dwight that were actually good in 2015 (chicago, cle, clips, tor)

then dwight gets back and beasts in the playoffs

you say yourself 2016 was a step back, so going into this year, there was no solid basis for prediction. my point wasn't​ that Harden was bad in 2015, it's that his team got worse the next year with the same squad and a healthy Dwight. noteworthy since the Rockets had a better record in the 41 with him than in the 41 without (29-12 vs 27-14) in 2015.

wasnt saying he wasnt great in 2015, im saying last year made it look anomalous.

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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42. "In the context of the voting, winning absolutely matters"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Only 3 guys (Moses, MJ, and Lebron) in the last 36 years (since the voting changed from a player vote to the current media voting) have won the MVP when their team finished outside of the top 3 overall records. Of those, only Moses had a team outside of his conference top 3 (Sixers were tied for 4th in the east).

That's 1/36, about 2.8%. Winning absolutely matters to voters.

OKC and Russy currently sit 6th in their own conference while the Rockets have the 3rd best record in the league with Harden having a historic season himself. Maybe the arbitrary triple-double hooplah swings the vote towards Russy.

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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27. "interesting contributions but not sure they convince me as standards"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

some guys played all 82 and the fact that the spurs are well coached doesnt change that playing without leonard here or there is very different than not having him at all. the w-l stuff also has a lot to do with their supporting players, coaches, etc. i think you just gotta look at individual contributions, in context of course

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
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37. "Terrible argument. Why only look at 20 games??"
In response to Reply # 27


          

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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46. "was that to me or the guy i responded to? "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
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50. "Yeah to builtwhatever, my bad"
In response to Reply # 46


          

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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39. "4 of 7 with kawhi sitting came vs GARBAGE"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

the other three were MEM, GS and TOR

every MVP in history had teammates that could take 2 out of three from the 7W, 4E, and 1W (missing their own MVP candidate) with a few breaks

he shouldnt get penalized because his teammates had the audacoty to go 4-0 vs BKN, POR, PHX, and SAC

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
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47. "yeah this argument is pretty trash w/o more context"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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20. "Harden is tough and all"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but the real reason he's probably refusing to sit out and rest this bad wrist is because he wants the MVP, and he knows if he misses games right now the lead can easily swing to Russ.


It's a kind of selfish way to look at that award, but hey you might only have one shot to win an MVP award and be crowned the best basketball player in the universe for the year.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Numba_33
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22. "That might be D'Antoni as well."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

I vaguely remember him playing Stoudamire for very lengthy minutes when both were newly minted on the Knicks. Didn't he also play Lin for extensive minutes as well during that very brief moment Lin played well for the Knicks?

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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Mignight Maruder
Member since Nov 30th 2003
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29. "Harden or Kawhi. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Can't understand how IT has as many votes as Kawhi. Kawhi is slightly less as explosive on offense and infinitely better on defense.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
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33. "Kawhi a my #2 especially when I consider his h2h vs the field"
In response to Reply # 29
Wed Mar-29-17 05:46 PM by ShawndmeSlanted

  

          

and i wouldnt be mad if he won it at all

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
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35. "the poll results are interesting"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

earlier in the year i said if it was close Russ would win cause its media votes and he has a better rep and is more liked. I think Harden has started to change the conversation and hate on him, but id give actual award advantage to Brodie

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
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51. "I feel like the analytics community wants Harden to win though"
In response to Reply # 35


          

Partly coz of Morey and D'Antoni, and partly coz awarding the 29-11-8 guy over the guy who led the league in scoring while averaging a triple double would imply that counting stats aren't everything.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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59. "I agree with this. The analytcs community loves Harden"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

>Partly coz of Morey and D'Antoni, and partly coz awarding the
>29-11-8 guy over the guy who led the league in scoring while
>averaging a triple double would imply that counting stats
>aren't everything.


And while it is a big and growing community, I dont think they are the majority yet.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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icecold21
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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36. "Russ, Harden, Kawhi, Bron, Wall"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'll be a bit salty if Harden wins it, and I think he will

_________________________________________

  

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
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38. "Kawhi has prob played the best overall. Not that that's the criteria."
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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40. "Kawhi"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

contingent on the fact that he is also my DPOY

When the DPOY gives you 27 a night on 49/37/89...i dont really need to see much else

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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RexLongfellow
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48. "Westbrook"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I mean, damn

If they make the playoffs (and they should), I can't see anyone else that SHOULD get it over him

I'm not saying he WILL get it, but to me he's the MVP

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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49. "LOL OH let me guess i"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>I mean, damn
>
>If they make the playoffs (and they should)
=


t because his team is so much worse than hardens?

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
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52. "bunch of BUMS"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

those top 3 picks oladipo and kanter. and those other lottery picks adams and mcdermott. and those really solid defenders gibson and roberson.

complete trash. might as well be out there with the RGV vipers.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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Dstl1
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56. "don't do that man...you on a higher level than this..."
In response to Reply # 52


          

Rex didn't even give a reason, lol. Yall at dude neck before he got a chance.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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58. "He actually did in the other post"
In response to Reply # 56
Thu Mar-30-17 12:22 PM by ShawndmeSlanted

  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2602026&mesg_id=2602026&page=#2602034

SOOO MUCH better

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Dstl1
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62. "cool...have at it"
In response to Reply # 58


          

.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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RexLongfellow
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72. "Appreciate It D"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

My man

I said that in the other post and stand by it...if cats honestly think that Oladipo, Roberson and Adams are as talented and as good as Anderson, Gordon and Beverly then I can't really say anything else. I vehemently disagree, but Harden for MVP cats are gonna say the teams are equally bad.

I don't see it that way though

  

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Dstl1
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74. "all good, fam..."
In response to Reply # 72


          

I agree...I'm just on some agree to disagree at this point.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Thu Mar-30-17 12:27 PM

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61. "Idgaf about where they picked. None of em are nice. Not a one. "
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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63. "Again, thats revisionist"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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PROMO
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64. "how is it revisionist to point out how OKC's roster is no good?"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

i'm honestly asking.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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65. "are you gonna take the time to read and engage "
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

or you just gonna act like you dont have time to read. Im being honest.

Thatll depend on how seriously I take your reply.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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PROMO
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67. "not if you're gonna try to tell me how Domantas Sabonis..."
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

is really helping OKC cook or how Andre Robinson is a hidden gem.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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Thu Mar-30-17 03:38 PM

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69. "RE: not if you're gonna try to tell me how Domantas Sabonis..."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

I havent mentioned either of those guys in my previous responses

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Dstl1
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77. "but that's who we got, man...Roberson is our starting SF"
In response to Reply # 69


          

he is averaging 6pts per game and shoots the three at barely 25%. Ryan Anderson, conversely is averaging 13.5 ppg and shoots damn near 40% from three. Teams don't even play Roberson out on the floor...they just sag in and let him miss wide-open threes.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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PROMO
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78. "no, stop! that's too much like making sense man!"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

don't you know this is OKS. you cannot employ logic.

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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Fri Mar-31-17 01:24 PM

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96. "Offensive spacing is just one part of the game, lol cmon"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

Trying to make an argument by only taking a piece of the game that fits into your narrative...I mean seriously, cmon

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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Dstl1
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98. "? I brought up Roberson specifically..."
In response to Reply # 96


          

because he was part of the last exchange with Shawn and PROMO...it wasn't to support any argument at all. Roberson can't shoot...the stats and watching well over 50 Thunder games tell me that.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
7218 posts
Fri Mar-31-17 04:06 PM

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100. "I've seen Roberson AIRBALL wide open uncontested 3s Russ gets him"
In response to Reply # 98


          

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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109. "I see Anderson not close-out, not tag cutters, not rotate every game "
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

Like I said, a lot more to the game than just spacing the floor.

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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108. "I know the context but you only brought up his weaknesses "
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

Of course when you compare Anderson vs Roberson's shooting, there will be a stark difference. If we're talking about teammates and making comparisons, you can't just bring up one aspect of the game.

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
85076 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 01:56 PM

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66. "idk if it's revisionist to realize niggas is sorry af. then theres not m..."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Wed Mar-29-17 11:21 PM

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53. "they just clinched b/w, what, are the rockets good?"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

they are maybe a little better but the argument you're making seems better suited for lebron or leonard than harden.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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RexLongfellow
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73. "No, The Rockets Are Not Good Without Harden"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

But the Thunder are WORSE without Westbrook. That's all I'm saying
And the Rockets 2nd thru 7 best players are just better than the Thunder's next best players

That's the only point I'm making. I'm not saying Harden isn't having an unbelievable year (and I hate Harden). I'm just saying his team is better than Westbrook's team. And it's crazy to me when cats are saying they are about even, when Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson are still better than everyone else on the Thunder. Is Taj Gibson THAT much better than Nene?

I didn't even count Lou Williams because he got added mid-season. It's not like I'm saying the Rockets would be fighting for a playoff spot without Harden.

  

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go mack
Member since May 02nd 2008
4020 posts
Thu Mar-30-17 04:55 PM

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75. "Barkley said Thunder were most talented team in the league last year"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

http://newsok.com/article/5476835

they lose KD I get it but Barkley said the most talented team top to bottom last year. How are they the worst roster in the league now? Oh yeah, Ibaka was also the key, forgot...

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
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Thu Mar-30-17 05:12 PM

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76. "i don't think anybody disagrees that harden's cast is better..."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

speaking for myself, i just feel that

1) #teamrussers wildly exaggerate the disparity

and

2) "who has the weakest supporting cast?" has never been the determining factor in the mvp race

if that's the logic, then magic and bird would've never won it.

lebron played with 2 all-stars in miami and plays with 2 now. so he's ruled out. steph too.

duncan played with 2 other greats. shaq had kobe, and vice versa.

none of those guys deserved to win, because they had 'help'?

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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PROMO
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79. "and i will say it again!"
In response to Reply # 76
Thu Mar-30-17 05:41 PM by PROMO

  

          

>2) "who has the weakest supporting cast?" has never been the
>determining factor in the mvp race

if the award is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER and both players are CLOSE and you think that neither players team would make the playoffs without them, then yes, you have to look at who has the most TRASH around them because the person with the most trash who leads their team to the playoffs is, BY DEFINITION, MORE VALUABLE.

most of the examples you gave are poor because in each of those seasons there were no true challengers to the award like there is this year. most of those examples were clearly the best players in the league with no legitimate challengers (again, in MOST of the examples you gave).

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Fri Mar-31-17 12:40 PM

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90. "That's the thing, that has been totally disregarded in the NBA"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

and most sports, really.

Like look at the Kobe/CP3 race, clearly the Hornets were working with less and Paul did more. What did the voters let it rest on? Who ended up with the top seed in the conference. So the supporting cast thing is a nice academic argument here, but in reality it probably will determine nothing in the actual voting.

I think voters will have a hard time passing on Russy's gaudy numbers and only the "but he took 2000 shots!" crowd will vote against him. Let's not give the voters too much credit yet, although I will admit they have evolved a bit on DPOY voting lately.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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Fri Mar-31-17 10:43 AM

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80. "the way too long didnt read bulleted summary of my tl;dr"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-31-17 10:56 AM by ShawndmeSlanted

  

          

Or better yet the 30 second read that lazy dudes act like they cant be bothered with because they see text on a message board and would rather argue with one liners and memes

So in 3rd grade readable summary so you can read each 3 second sentence one at a time as time or mental capacity for the day permits.

I'm fully expecting the only person to try to engage in a thoughtful discussion here is DSTL, but we shall see.



- I think Harden should be MVP right today but wouldnt be mad if Russell or Kawhi got it.


- I dont think the race is locked up and is still up for grabs going down the stretch.


-I can see the statistical argument for why Russy should be MVP even though I think Harden's numbers are slightly more impressive and more efficient.


-In terms of Kawhi his individual numbers arent there over the course of the season but his impact in big games Ive watched and the fact that the team has the most wins of the 3, and the fact that he plays both ends is why I wouldnt mind if he won.


-What's been killing me is this argument that Harden has hands down a better team. I actually dont agree with Dula exactly but I'll digress for now.


-In regards to a better team, a simple argument can be made that isnt that what MVPs are supposed to do? They are supposed to have transcendent individual performances that raise the level of their teamates. So in that sense Harden has done that as the engine of the historic Houston Rockets offense.


-Several people on here are arguing that that well hardens guys have always been better. This is where I've been pointing out the hindsight goggles argument.


-What does the hindsight goggles argument mean Shawn? It seems like several people dont quite understand it.


-Well in summary, prior to the season, people did not think the Rockets were that good of a team. If you do a google search of NBA season predictions there arent many media outlets or basketball writers who predicted the Rockets would finish above the Thunder.


-In fact, a number of these people had the Rockets missing the playoffs completely.


-Don't believe me google yourself. I've already posted several links to the evidence.


-As im trying not to cherrypick here, one interesting note is that on the OKP prediction page, the results were actually different than major media and nba writers. To my quick CTRL+F count
we had 6 votes for thunder above Rockets and 6 votes for Rockets above Thunder resulting in a tie.


-I think However of the people who had the Thunder above the Rockets 4 had the Rockets missing the playoffs completely while only 2 had the Thunder missing the playoffs completely?
Im happy to call this a draw. But far from the conclusion that the Rockets had/have a WAAAAAAAY better team.
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2572087&mesg_id=2572087&listing_type=search


*notable fact is I dont think anyone actively engaging in this debate actually made a standings prediction (self included)



-Also possibly the most telling thing here...vegas which does a pretty solid job of capturing public perception/projection of teams ( I mean its their job). Had houston at 41.5 wins (just under .500) and OKC at 44.5

-anyhow what does this all mean? It means that I believe that prior to the season there was not a strong perception that the Rockets had a WAAAAAAy better team than the Rockets. In fact based on the evidence above I would say the perception was that OKC was at least a slightly better team. Unless you want to argue that Vegas and the above evidence somehow just felt that Russell was THAT MUCH better himself to have OKC predicted better than the Rockets in most cases.

- Cgoonz pointed out in his weirdly worded post above that some of the Rockets low expectations were due to their poor performance last year. fair enough to some degree, but by the time these predictions were made --it was close enough to the start of the season that people knew Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon would be Rockets. Nobody was really crying when the Rockets were predicted to finish so poorly.




Its hard to guage player perception because we dont ever really do a player rank or anything preseason, the closest thing that exists is ESPN player rankings 1-200.

is it a perfect science? No. Is it completely objective? Not at all?

But it is useful because they were projections that werent clouded by a Russ vs Harden agenda 10 months ago. Lets see what we have here.

Westbrook Ranked 5, Previous Season 7
Victor Oladipo Ranked: 48, Previous Season 58
Steven Adams Ranked 36: Previous Season 116
Andre Roberson Ranked 158, Previous Season 327
Ersan Ilyasova Ranked 131, Previous Season 127
Taj Gibson Ranked 84, Previous Season 65
Doug McD ranked 190, Previous Season 246
Enes Ranked 80, Previous Rank 152

Harden Ranked 8, Previous Season 5
Eric Gordon Ranked 86, Previous Season 96
Ariza Ranked: 94, Previous Season 84
Clint Capela ranked: 92, Previous Season 265
Ryan Anderson Ranked: 95, Previous Season ranked: 80
Nene Hilario Ranked: 96, Previous Season ranked 63
Patrick Beverly ranked 160, previous season 135
LouWillz ranked 198, previous Season 110



While again, none of this is scientific. I dont remember any of these rankings for these particular guys causing that much of a stir here or other basketball message boards or among writers. They maybe werent perfect, but nobody looked at these PRESEASON (prior to goggle activation) and was like NO FUCKIN WAY BRO!!!!

-Anyhow it shows that while the Rockets may have been perceived to be deeper overall, the Thunder were more top heavy. A far cry from the OMG Rockets have way better roster that our goggles now yield.

That is my point about goggles and hindsight. Its easy to sit here and call the OKC roster trash now, because they arent playing well. Or say harden has a way better team because they are playing well...but isnt that what an NBA MVP is supposed to do? Play transcendent basketball individually while raising the level of their team.


I think someone just made a joke above about how Gordon is better than Oladipo Bro...

Funny enough the guys are putting up almost identical #'s
Gordon 16,2,2 on 41% and 38.1 from 3
Oladipo 16, 4, and 2 on 44% and also 38.1% from 3. Funny i wouldnt have believed that myself if I hadnt looked it up, but I did and guess what? The fact is there.

But Gordon is way better now too right?



There's also an argument going around for Roberson being bad. Sure. But lets not act like having that "supposed" 3-d wing defender who is a terrible offensive player hasnt been a fabric of OKC's makeup for awhile. Im sure OKC fans would love to have Thabo back now, but remember when he got ran out of town?

For a board that cites how much we love defense, we sure dont act like it sometimes. Even though he is a complete dunce on offense we just gonna throw him under the bus and act like his defense isnt a thing and allows Russy to continue to be a lazy perimeter defender?
https://bballbreakdown.com/2016/12/21/andre-robersons-defensive-campaign-now-full-flow/

If hes so bad then run Jerami grant out there. isnt that why OKC traded for him? A multiple position defender who is shooting 35.9% from 3 lol

Or hey, you guys want offense
Lets run
Wessy
Dipo
Dougie or Alex Abrines
Taj
Enes

You can run a Houston light offense with Russy driving and dishing to 37+% 3 point shooters on the wing. Just bench Roberson...He is in fact ABSOLUTE trash that shouldnt be seeing the court, right?


-If theyre such a bad overall team of bad players -- why havent Doug McDermott's and Especially Taj Gibson's numbers gone up since the all star break as theyre playing with Russy? Hmmmm


-In summary. You dont have to agree that Harden is MVP right today. Im cool with Russy being MVP. Just dont get expected to be taken seriously if you cite one of your main reasons being JAMES HARDEN just has a WAAAAY better team. Of course he does, his team is in the lead in the standings and he's a part of the reason they are better.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
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Fri Mar-31-17 12:22 PM

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84. "The key difference is really Ariza vs. Roberson"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

>If hes so bad then run Jerami grant out there. isnt that why
>OKC traded for him? A multiple position defender who is
>shooting 35.9% from 3 lol
>
>Or hey, you guys want offense
>Lets run
>Wessy
>Dipo
>Dougie or Alex Abrines
>Taj
>Enes
>
>You can run a Houston light offense with Russy driving and
>dishing to 37+% 3 point shooters on the wing. Just bench
>Roberson...He is in fact ABSOLUTE trash that shouldnt be
>seeing the court, right?

Roberson isn't really that much better than Prince Moute on defense (http://bkref.com/tiny/gbLff) & is the worst shooter in the league for his position for a starter. (He doesn't cut/slash as well as Tony Allen either)

Ariza on the other hand has basically been the best 3&D player in the league this season & the Rockets would be in HUGE trouble if he got injured.

If the Clippers can't get away playing Moute in the 4th quarter despite the rest of their 4-man lineup being an offensive dynamo then I'm not sure what Russ is supposed to do w/ Roberson. Dougie/Abrines are terrible defenders & it's hard to hide wing players.

Oladipo might be shooting the same % as Gordon but he doesn't have the gravity & takes better shots as teams basically give him open jumpers rather than giving him a driving lane. Oladipo is basically Beverley status as a shooter.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
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Fri Mar-31-17 12:37 PM

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89. "RE: The key difference is really Ariza vs. Roberson"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

So then the rosters are pretty close except for Ariza and Roberson and its not a total decimation?

And Roberson sucks at everything but they continue to play him despite better options? Because he brings 0. OKC poor lineup choices arent Hardens fault in an MVP race


and...Ariza isnt even playing as well offensively as he did last year

>>If hes so bad then run Jerami grant out there. isnt that
>why
>>OKC traded for him? A multiple position defender who is
>>shooting 35.9% from 3 lol
>>
>>Or hey, you guys want offense
>>Lets run
>>Wessy
>>Dipo
>>Dougie or Alex Abrines
>>Taj
>>Enes
>>
>>You can run a Houston light offense with Russy driving and
>>dishing to 37+% 3 point shooters on the wing. Just bench
>>Roberson...He is in fact ABSOLUTE trash that shouldnt be
>>seeing the court, right?
>
>Roberson isn't really that much better than Prince Moute on
>defense (http://bkref.com/tiny/gbLff) & is the worst shooter
>in the league for his position for a starter. (He doesn't
>cut/slash as well as Tony Allen either)
>
>Ariza on the other hand has basically been the best 3&D player
>in the league this season & the Rockets would be in HUGE
>trouble if he got injured.
>
>If the Clippers can't get away playing Moute in the 4th
>quarter despite the rest of their 4-man lineup being an
>offensive dynamo then I'm not sure what Russ is supposed to do
>w/ Roberson. Dougie/Abrines are terrible defenders & it's hard
>to hide wing players.
>
>Oladipo might be shooting the same % as Gordon but he doesn't
>have the gravity & takes better shots as teams basically give
>him open jumpers rather than giving him a driving lane.
>Oladipo is basically Beverley status as a shooter.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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FILF
Member since Jun 01st 2007
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Fri Mar-31-17 01:16 PM

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94. "In an era of 3&D wings, it's hard to get away w/ a 25% shooter"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

>So then the rosters are pretty close except for Ariza and
>Roberson and its not a total decimation?

Mavs gave Wes Matthews an 80mill contract after he ruptured his achilles b/c it hard to win nowadays without a 3&D wing. You can argue that Ariza has been the best 3&D guy this season while it's a FACT that Roberson is the worst shooter at his position among starters.

Ariza is basically going to give you 5 more wins than Roberson.

>And Roberson sucks at everything but they continue to play him
>despite better options? Because he brings 0. OKC poor lineup
>choices arent Hardens fault in an MVP race

The Clippers have played well w/ Prince Moute during he course of the season but they still don't play him much in the 4th quarter b/c teams dare him to shoot & gummy up the offense. The Clippers have been hurting for a 3&D guy for years despite having the luxury of bringing Crawford off the bench & going all-in on offense.

OKC was closing playoff game w/ Waiters last season b/c they couldn't afford to have Roberson on the floor even alongside w/ KD when it came to crunch-time.

>and...Ariza isnt even playing as well offensively as he did
>last year

He hasn't been as deadly from the corner but he still shooting 40% &, more importantly, has gravity. He is also finishing well at the rim when he gets run off the line which is why his TS% is basically the same.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
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95. "RE: In an era of 3&D wings, it's hard to get away w/ a 25% shooter"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

So why is OKC playing Roberson at all?

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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FILF
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Fri Mar-31-17 01:34 PM

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97. "For the same reason Prince Moute plays in the first 3 quarters"
In response to Reply # 95
Fri Mar-31-17 01:47 PM by FILF

  

          

>So why is OKC playing Roberson at all?

We all saw what happened to Tony Allen when the Warriors decided not to guard him & OKC was able to get away w/ Roberson last season b/c they were able to move him to the 4 spot in the WCF as Waiters was able to provide 3&D.

This season they have no options, so his minutes actually went up despite his shooting hitting rock bottom.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

  

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Dstl1
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101. "people kinda chuckled when I started #playoffdion..."
In response to Reply # 97


          

but, dude brought us back to life against the Spurs. He was seemingly able to get to the basket at will and hit some HUGE jump shots.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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theeraser
Member since Feb 11th 2007
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Fri Mar-31-17 12:33 PM

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86. "Basically agree but let's not act like foresight necessarily > hindsight"
In response to Reply # 80


          

Both can reflect different biases. Everyone's pre-season predictions for the Rockets, for instance, were probably unduly affected by how much the team UNDER-achieved last year - and also by underrating the impact that D'Antoni can have on a team's (regular season) fortunes, due to how ill-fitting he was for the Knicks and Lakers situations.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
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91. "Sure"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

>Both can reflect different biases. Everyone's pre-season
>predictions for the Rockets, for instance, were probably
>unduly affected by how much the team UNDER-achieved last year
>-

I did cite that


and also by underrating the impact that D'Antoni can have on
>a team's (regular season) fortunes, due to how ill-fitting he
>was for the Knicks and Lakers situations.

And to this point everybody and their moms ESPECIALLY on this board hate Dantoni and thought this was gonna be a disaster cause well--defense and Harden couldnt really play pg. So who saved who? harden or D'antoni?


Does coaching and system factor into MVP voting?


---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
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Fri Mar-31-17 11:57 AM

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83. "btw:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

in the last week and a half, steph curry has outplayed russ, harden and kawhi, head to head, all in their buildings.

http://thesource.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Screen-Shot-2016-04-27-at-1.43.46-PM.png

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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mrhood75
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85. "Well, of course"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

Kind of one of the reasons I'm not enthralled by Westbrook and Harden's seasons, especially Westbrook's. I feel like the Dubs have pretty thoroughly exposed him every time they've played him this season. And even in his one win against the Warriors this year, Harden didn't look especially impressive.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Dstl1
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88. "exposed him in what way? he had a genuinely shitty game..."
In response to Reply # 85


          

in one out of the three. He did everything but die on the court in that first game KD came back. They're infinitely better. The Warriors beat teams... thats what they do. They just handled a San Antonio team that washed the fuck out of Cleveland the other night. I don't see how losing to a team is exposing a player...unless the player flat out didn't show up.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
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92. "New MVP rules from boxing "unwritten" rules have been instated"
In response to Reply # 88
Fri Mar-31-17 12:43 PM by ShawndmeSlanted

  

          

To beat the reigning MVP Champ you gotta go in and take the belt from him. If you lose h2h he keeps MVP and you arent impressive

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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mrhood75
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93. "RE: exposed him in what way? he had a genuinely shitty game..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

Exposed him as a guy who puts his own success ahead of the team's success.

KD's first game back in OKC was a perfect example. In the first half of the game, Westbrook was at least **trying** to distribute and get the rest of the team involved. Third quarter, Kerr decides to put KD on Westbrook, and Westbrook, not so concidentally, decides to stop distributing and try to take it KD every time, because he just **has** to show he's the better player during a nationally televised game. And, of course, he forces everything and shoots like shit. It was encapsulated when Westbrook then tried to talk to KD right after a time out, with Westbrook screaming "I'm coming!" (he didn't) and KD responding "You're going to lose" (they did).

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Dstl1
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99. "so, did Harden get "exposed", too..."
In response to Reply # 93


          

or did GS simply win because they're better? What about Kawhi the other night?

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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mrhood75
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Fri Mar-31-17 04:46 PM

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102. "RE: so, did Harden get "exposed", too..."
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

>or did GS simply win because they're better? What about
>Kawhi the other night?

The Dubs pretty much have exposed Harden every time they've played him during the last three seasons. As I said in my original reply, I'm not nearly impressed at Harden's game as a lot of other people are, considering that it appears that it's a lot similar to his last two seasons: shoot 3s, and if that doesn't work drive and attempt to draw contact. My dislike for Harden is pretty well chronicled on this board. Only improvement he seems to have made is that he passes more. But he's not that far removed from being the same ball-stopper he's always been in Houston.

I'm willing to cut Leonard a good deal of slack because he actually works both sides of the ball consistently. And I feel like he performs more consistently against the better teams in the league.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Fri Mar-31-17 04:57 PM

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103. "but this isnt about who the best player is but who's having the best yea..."
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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mrhood75
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104. "This season it's become "Who's numbers are the best with the worst...""
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

"...supporting cast." That's certainly what it feels like for at least 3 out of the 4 top candidates.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Fri Mar-31-17 07:12 PM

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111. "Eh I dunno I think that is overblown and it's only for two guys"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

Are you throwing Thomas in as the third? I think a guy with his numbers and his team sitting atop the division (and, for the moment, the conference) is a pretty standard MVP candidate with a pretty standard argument.

Russ's main argument is that he's averaging a triple double. Harden's is that he is an efficient, high-volume scorer that has taken his playmaking to another level. Who is doing more with less is a secondary argument intended to settle who should win between them. It's also linked to the idea that Westbrook's numbers are all volume, but the retort is that he needs to chuck shots and dominate the ball because his team is weak offensively. The counter to that is that Harden's team is also not great yet he is finding ways to get it done without the same squid technique on the stat sheet.

But, at the core, we are talking about guys with big numbers in many areas on playoff teams with high seeds. Russy's team is not a high seed but his numbers are the gaudiest.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
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105. "James Harden "ball stopper""
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

As a dubs fan you're hate for Harden is warranted but cmon and do yourself a favor and come up with a different word or set of word to describe what you don't like about his game...ball stopper is the wrong one and only makes you look silly/stupid.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Dstl1
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106. "right...there is literally no way you could watch Houston and come "
In response to Reply # 105


          

away with that thought on his game. Dude literally beat us in the first matchup with one of the coldest assists I've seen all year to Nene. He pretty much ALWAYS makes the right play.

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

  

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mrhood75
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Fri Mar-31-17 05:24 PM

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107. "I admit that applied to him a lot more last season."
In response to Reply # 105
Fri Mar-31-17 05:25 PM by mrhood75

  

          

And I'll concede my utter distaste for him as a player colors my perception of his game now.

But if you want to cherry-pick that, then go right ahead.

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Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35260 posts
Sat Apr-01-17 07:14 AM

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112. "but that was the cherry on top of your post lol"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

its not his fault you mischaracterized Harden, and he isnt being nit-picky in correcting you

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts
Fri Mar-31-17 06:49 PM

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110. "Tropes, get your tropes here! Only 2 for a dollah"
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts
Fri Mar-31-17 12:34 PM

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87. "how you view harden vs westbrook says a lot about you."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://theringer.com/russell-westbrook-james-harden-nba-mvp-a166d91ff6cf

Where You Stand in the Westbrook-Harden MVP Debate Says a Lot About You
In one of the most contentious MVP races ever, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard, and LeBron James are all vying for the award. But it is ultimately the Russ vs. Beard argument that reflects how you define “most valuable.”

Danny Chau
Associate Editor, The Ringer
Mar 31

Russell Westbrook’s 48th, 49th, and 50th points in Wednesday’s game against Orlando were as good as fated. They came on a game-tying leaner from 31 feet out with only seconds remaining in regulation, because of course they did. Westbrook has become the patron saint of round numbers, and every MVP debate this season starts with Russ’s triple-double average (and ends with obscenities and unwarranted, moralizing judgments). Russ neutralized a 21-point deficit, and turned the Orlando crowd into zealots on his behalf. With three minutes remaining in the extra session, MVP chants rained down from the Amway Center. The Thunder would go on to win 114–106 in overtime, with Westbrook recording a 57-point triple-double, the highest-scoring triple-double in NBA history. But it’s that 3 at the end of regulation that could be remembered as his defining moment of the regular season. Why? Let’s watch it again:

https://gfycat.com/VengefulEnchantingFlounder

Once airborne, Westbrook leans in to split the difference between Elfrid Payton and Terrence Ross, but immediately starts drifting right, because he’s actually in the presence of a third defender, his own teammate Steven Adams, who is late trying to set a screen. Russ, as always, is a step ahead, and rises up to fire a beat before Adams gets in position; by the time Adams slips the play, Westbrook is already on his way down. He was flanked by two guards on each side of him, but really, he was shooting over a 7-footer to tie the game. In real time, Westbrook animated the most persistent argument for his claim to the highest individual award in the league: he’s doing it all in spite of his teammates. An MVP moment was born.

MVP moments are … having a moment. In the past month, most of the leading Most Valuable Player Award candidates have essentially submitted their reels to the Academy, encapsulating a year’s worth of excellence in one definitive sequence. It’s been an unprecedented year for an individual’s impact on his team, which, naturally, has only amplified the significance of the MVP moment this season. It operates as a moving metaphor, constructing an entire mini-narrative that not only burnishes a candidate’s qualifications, but unmasks his character as an athlete.

Steph Curry’s game-winning pull-up 3 over the Thunder in overtime last season was his MVP moment, a heaven-sent Molotov cocktail of hubris, glee, and chosen-one assuredness — it was Chance’s “Blessings” in the form of a 37-foot heave. Curry stood peerless then; he would go on to become the first unanimous MVP in league history. To reset the balance this season, the basketball gods have given us one of the most contentious races ever: four players — Westbrook, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James — all deserving, all representative of a different way in which to remember this season.

Leonard had his moment on March 6 against Houston in one of the best games of the year. On one end, a Spurs possession that Manu Ginobili might have tried (and failed) to put past Gregg Popovich more than a decade ago: 13 seconds of Kawhi pounding the basketball, straight into a pull-up jumper from the left wing. Seconds later, on defense, Kawhi is bumped on a high screen, giving Harden a free lane to the rim. Harden lays the ball up and — thwack. Leonard pins the ball with his off hand. Harden doesn’t bother to even feign outrage at a potential goaltend. He knew it was clean; that’s just how Kawhi plays defense.

Most years, the MVP race is an offensive pissing contest along parallel lines. That’s what makes Leonard’s MVP moment unique. Kawhi’s was the only one this season to prop up his own credibility by diminishing one of his competitors’. It was Leonard’s entire career in a nutshell: quietly, insistently gaining on his peers. It was confrontational and, for an internet second, made it seem as though Leonard had truly taken over the discussion. It was Kendrick Lamar’s “Control” verse, played at 10 percent volume. A low, menacing hum on the periphery.

Harden’s moment arrived on March 20 against the Nuggets, in a showcase of two top-five offenses. With six seconds remaining in the game, and Denver up, 124–123, Harden fights for a defensive rebound with Gary Harris right at the baseline — the only thing keeping Harden from stepping out of bounds is the heel that he miraculously keeps arched. He swivels around Harris on such a tight turn radius that not only does Harden dislodge himself from Harris’s immediate vicinity, but he actually creates about five feet of distance between them. Harden drives straight down the middle of the court, all 94 feet, past every player on the Nuggets defense, for a game-winning layup. By the end of the play, he’s completely gassed.

https://gfycat.com/ForcefulAggravatingAmericanwigeon

Is that not the physical embodiment of Mike D’Antoni’s greatest hits? A one-man buzzsaw finding potential in every inch of the court as he pioneers one of the best offenses in the league; he runs himself ragged, but he persists.

That exhaustion has become a part of Harden’s platform. He’s played in every game this season, and has missed only one practice. He’s played through a left wrist injury for the past two weeks. “(I’m) not leaving (my) teammates out there to dry, “ Harden told reporters earlier this week. “For me, I worry about always having my teammates’ back and always being out there.”

Ironically, rest is the most convincing argument for LeBron’s candidacy. The Cavs are 0–6 when James is inactive; his best shot at winning it all might be sitting out the rest of the season and seeing just how bad things can get. While I’ve argued LeBron’s case before — and still think it’s a good one — as far as optics go, he’s fallen to fourth. In a race this close, momentum matters. The Cavs have sputtered, losing five of their past seven games. LeBron’s MVP moment — a game-tying fadeaway 3 from the corner against the Wizards — happened in February, which is like dropping an award-worthy movie in the Oscars dry season.

Why does Harden’s opinion on rest matter in the race? Why does Orlando’s sudden Westbrook evangelism matter? Why does it matter who is MVP? Because it’s easier to discuss broader issues through icons and avatars; because the winner becomes evocative of the thoughts and attitudes of a given season; because the award is the epitaph for the 82-game experience.

In some circles, the MVP debate highlights the limitations of modern basketball statistics to quantify the impact of any one player. For instance, how LeBron, 14 years into his career, has become unto himself a grand unified theory of everything, becoming the most efficient he’s ever been as an all-around offensive playmaker. Or how Kawhi Leonard’s once-in-a-generation perimeter D registers as a net negative through defensive metrics, effectively resurfacing the once-thought-to-be-lost Revis Island in San Antonio, of all places.

The Harden v. Westbrook debate becomes a conversation about who gets to be remembered as the rightful heir to Oscar Robertson, and who officially gets to carry that lineage — both have maintained season averages last achieved only by the Big O. Westbrook’s 57-point triple-double was certainly the best game of his career: Counting his point total and the point total from his assists, Russ accounted for 82 of the Thunder’s 114 points (71.9 percent). Harden’s best game, his 53–16–17 New Year’s Eve ball-out against the Knicks, accounted for 95 of the Rockets’ 129 points (73.6 percent). These figures are completely unprecedented in the modern era.

The NBA tracks “potential assists,” which basically counts the number of times a player passes to a teammate for a shot, whether that shot goes in or not. Harden leads all players in potential assists; Westbrook is in third, trailing John Wall. But between the two leading MVP candidates, the percentage of potential assists that become actual assists slightly favors Westbrook, 53.3 percent compared to 52.5 percent (the undisputed king of potentiating assists is Ricky Rubio, who turns 58.4 of his potential assists into actual ones). At surface level, this suggests that Westbrook is a slightly more efficient passer, but when you consider that Harden has nearly 50 percent more hockey assists than Westbrook, it becomes clear that Harden has access to more release valves on offense than his OKC counterpart.

All this more or less confirms what we know anecdotally: the Rockets have a team built perfectly around Harden’s talents; the Thunder have a team built around Westbrook’s insistence on doing everything. We’ve set the stage for a compelling four-man finish, but if this still feels like a two-man race to you, it’s because Westbrook and Harden most clearly represent the two most basic schools of thought when it comes to determining the meaning of “most valuable.” Is it fair to penalize a player for being on a team complementary to his talents? Is it fair to champion a player whose extraordinary effort still only amounts to being the best option on a middling team? Every year, MVP voters grapple with the significance of individual and collective success and how one informs the other — and every year, the rationale changes. That there is no hardline answer is both beautiful and frustrating. Because all we want is for sports to align with how we see the world. (My theoretical vote would go to Harden. Disagree? Let’s be friends.)

We are all basketball analysts and annalists, and how the league reflects upon itself will affect the way we reflect upon it down the line. The fans at the Amway Center eschewing their values as home-team loyalists did so in celebration of something greater. There was a collective feeling that history was being made. Simply being there established a level of involvement, of being part of the stakes. Should Westbrook win the MVP this season, the chants he got in Orlando will live on as a footnote in his campaign. If history is written by the victors, we’ll settle for a shout-out in the acknowledgments.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

  

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Innocent Criminal
Member since May 03rd 2003
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Thu May-11-17 09:17 PM

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113. "/shrug "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

________________________________
There are dozens of us! Dozens!

  

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