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topic #2468237

Subject: "Greatest NBA player since Michael Jordan's last ring?"

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:08 PM

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"Poll question: Greatest NBA player since Michael Jordan's last ring?"

honorable mentions: Dirk, VC, DWade, Grant Hill...

new generation: Chef, KD, WB, AD...

Poll result (70 votes)
Kobe Bryant	(19 votes)	Vote
Shaquille O'Neal	(4 votes)	Vote
Kevin Garnett	(1 votes)	Vote
Tim Duncan	(30 votes)	Vote
Lebron James	(14 votes)	Vote
Allen Iverson	(2 votes)	Vote

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Topic Outline

Subject	Author	Message Date	ID
depends on how you defend greatest i guess	Cenario	Jul 27th 2015	1
it's up to your interpretation...mine was between Kobe & Timmy	TRENDone	Jul 27th 2015	4
Pretty much. "Greatest achiever" or "greatest to watch"?	Frank Longo	Jul 27th 2015	6
Best resume vs best player	John Forte	Jul 27th 2015	7
"great" to me always connotes resumé	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	103
It's Lebron, you simple ass niggers	John Forte	Jul 27th 2015	2
right today it damn sure aint.	Cenario	Jul 27th 2015	3
I was having a Kobe vs. Lebron discussion the other day	TRENDone	Jul 27th 2015	5
"Now you tell me who won? I see them, they run..."(c)Pac	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	8
Lately they run cuz they want to play for a winner though.	GOMEZ	Jul 27th 2015	12
RE: Greatest NBA player since Michael Jordan's last ring?	COOLEHMAGAZINE	Jul 27th 2015	9
I chose Tim also but...	TRENDone	Jul 27th 2015	10
RE: I chose Tim also but...	COOLEHMAGAZINE	Jul 27th 2015	14
Gimme a sec to argue Kawhi '13-'14 reg season	TRENDone	Jul 27th 2015	18
RE: Gimme a sec to argue Kawhi '13-'14 reg season	COOLEHMAGAZINE	Jul 27th 2015	20
RE: Gimme a sec to argue Kawhi '13-'14 reg season	TRENDone	Jul 27th 2015	24
so...Tim got more numbers because he was the focal point	thejerseytornado	Jul 27th 2015	26
Well Tony Parker averaged more points than Tim Duncan '13-'14	TRENDone	Jul 28th 2015	74
Duncan was ASS in the 2007 Finals	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	23
nah there was no need for him to go all out against a Cavs team that	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	64
lol, he didn't take a "step back", he just didn't play well, the Cavs de...	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	84
...the hell you talking bout, man?	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	102
exactly, he got worse every game, i.e. "they shut him down"	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	113
you playing dumb?	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015
Shaq shot like 60% in the 06 Finals, Duncan shot 44% in 07, FOH!	ThaTruth	Jul 29th 2015	174
lulz!	dula dibiasi	Jul 30th 2015	184
lol, wtf is "average game score"? bottom line is part of the reason Wade...	ThaTruth	Jul 30th 2015	185
THEY WERE SEVERELY OUTSCORED WHEN HE WAS ON THE FLOOR	dula dibiasi	Jul 30th 2015	186
Who cares if he had a Finals that bad?	Premiere	Jul 30th 2015	183
yeah Drew Gooden locked him up - again that was the easiest	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	90
TOUGH!	Creole	Jul 27th 2015	11
One of those is not like the other.	TheRealBillyOcean	Jul 27th 2015	13
RE: Greatest NBA player since Michael Jordan's last ring?	COOLEHMAGAZINE	Jul 27th 2015	15
Robert Horry.	Buck	Jul 27th 2015	16
#RingsMatter	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	38
Timmy. Consistent greatness combined with longevity	LA2Philly	Jul 27th 2015	17
Bill Russell of his era,the best team player/career,not the best player ...	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	30
Spinoff: biggest impact straight outta high school? Kobe, LBJ, or KG?	TRENDone	Jul 27th 2015	19
That'd be LeBron. Fairly easliy.	mrhood75	Jul 27th 2015	22
Zone D allowed in 2001...hand checking banned 2004 lol	TRENDone	Jul 27th 2015	25
Yeah, that doesn't make a difference here though	mrhood75	Jul 27th 2015	27
RE: Yeah, that doesn't make a difference here though	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	33
poor excuse	melmag	Jul 27th 2015	45
rookie Lebron couldn't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	47
By that argument, neither could Kobe. They had the same FG%...	mrhood75	Jul 27th 2015	51
21/6/6 and shoulda been one of the few rookies ever in league history	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	70
shooting 41% on a 35 win team?	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	85
Kobe is a career 45% shooter and 41% is the lowest in Bron's career	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	88
bottom line, up until recently players on losing teams didn't make the.....	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	122
Nah man everybody knew Lebron should've been in the ASG but it	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	128
Kobe was behind Eddie Jones, an all star caliber SG	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	92
Yep for sure. AND Del Harris was a different type of coach	-DJ R-Tistic-	Jul 28th 2015	118
Kobe was NOT ready to be a starter in the NBA his 1st season in	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	120
not on a 56 win team with an AS caliber 25 year old SG	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	127
It wasn't just because he was on a winning team why he wasn't	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	134
and none of that disproves what I said	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	149
it doesn't if you think just being able to score and jack up tons of	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	155
RE: it doesn't if you think just being able to score and jack up tons of...	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	159
RE: it doesn't if you think just being able to score and jack up tons of...	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	161
c'mon	melmag	Jul 27th 2015	31
LeBron EASILY. Only comparison would be Moses Malone.	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	37
Impact on the game? I'd say KG.	TheRealBillyOcean	Jul 27th 2015	48
Also consider his economic impact and basketball-wise, too	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	59
all of that...n/m	TRENDone	Jul 28th 2015	76
Tie between Kobe and Duncan to me	JAESCOTT777	Jul 27th 2015	21
Duncan	kayru99	Jul 27th 2015	28
Shaq only two votes? What!?! I can't believe how this Duncan-Shaq ...	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	29
RE: Shaq only two votes? What!?! I can't believe how this Duncan-Shaq .....	COOLEHMAGAZINE	Jul 27th 2015	32
you're either crazy, young, or a combination of the 2, lol...	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	35
I mean he played 18 years, still an all-star in year 16.	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	36
this is absurd, and i'm a duncan guy.	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	71
RE: this is absurd, and i'm a duncan guy.	COOLEHMAGAZINE	Jul 28th 2015	144
pretty much, lol	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	34
Yeah, Shaq and Bron are the only two viable choices	John Forte	Jul 27th 2015	39
For a player to be as dominant as Shaq was, I can't think of another	vee-lover	Jul 27th 2015	41
lol, Duncan's had his share of sweeps and "gentleman's sweep" L's...	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	42
RE: lol, Duncan's had his share of sweeps and "gentleman's sweep" L's...	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	49
if you had actually watched those series instead of simply doing your	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	63
^^^PLEAS COPPED	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	65
its called common sense...nevertheless, Shaq still has more	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	66
Sean Elliott was a good player and a good guy but let's not go nuts	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	67
what??? he was their best perimter defender and he was 7 inches taller	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	68
Always fun to only apply context in one direction	LA2Philly	Jul 28th 2015	72
Google is NOT your frifriend	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	80
Oh but it is	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	87
That '03 team was was on fumes and our depth was so thin	LA2Philly	Jul 28th 2015	91
Funny how no one gave those same concessions to Bron/Heat	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	95
I can't speak for everyone, but context always matters	LA2Philly	Jul 28th 2015	100
Oh so you were saying the reason why the Heat lost was because of	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	123
RE: Oh so you were saying the reason why the Heat lost was because of	LA2Philly	Jul 29th 2015	167
i understand that all that but duncan still gets credit for going balls-...	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	97
Completely agree, it cuts both ways	LA2Philly	Jul 28th 2015	101
So which one is the most reliable source? yahoo/Wikipedia/basketball	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	93
i met elliott several times, no way was he 6'9"	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	98
Umm c'mere, Charlie and let Vlove holla at cha abt Shaq/TD head to	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	115
lol, nice trying including those Phoenix and Boston years and STILL...	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	132
feel free to recalibrate the stats then...either way its not lopsided li...	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	136
lol, whut?	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	145
take away the Cleveland/Boston seasons and its still pretty much a	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	157
By "not close" I mean Shaq was clearly better and he was	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 29th 2015	168
excuses can be made the other way too	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	94
Shaq swept Duncan at least twice after Duncan swept him	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	52
I picked Duncan but this is a valid point for Shaq.	B.J.S.301	Jul 27th 2015	53
agreed, Shaq and Lebron are the choices	DJR	Jul 27th 2015	54
Exactly, Kobe and Duncan were the best over certain periods	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	60
Over what period was Kobe definitively considered the best player?	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	69
If you looked for example at 2000-2010, you'd have go give it to him	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	99
but it wasn't until the 2005 season when Kobe became the LEAD	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	105
nah, kobe finished ahead of shaq in mvp voting in '03 and '04.	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	109
despite who finished where in the MVP voting, Shaq proved he was	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	130
lolz	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	140
Because we got to see Shaq's and Kobe's real value beyond some	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	151
to be fair, Shaq was traded to a team that had Wade	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	154
despite how good Wade was becoming, I don't think there's another	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	158
and they didn't "just" lose shaq either, like dude keeps saying.	dula dibiasi	Jul 29th 2015	171
lmaoooo. whatever, breh. you just hate kobe.	dula dibiasi	Jul 29th 2015	169
got nothing to do w/hate but I understand that that's you and others	vee-lover	Jul 29th 2015	172
So? I'd argue he was very close in 03 and 04, then 05-10, no doubt	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	147
he's like Jay-Z	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	106
exactly, i've made the exact same analogy several times.	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	107
Oh of course he was one of the top 5 players in the league over a	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	108
was there every a period when people said that about Duncan?	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	114
No - Lebron is the first player post MJ where the consensus is he's	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	117
during the 3-peat years Shaq held that title.	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	121
Shaq sorta had his own category as the most dominant because	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	124
^^^PLEAS COPPED	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	129
There's not a player before or since Shaq that ppl label 'most	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	131
lol, Spin it how you want, if you had Prime Shaq on your team you were.....	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	133
you mean Shaq along w/an elite perimeter player, right?	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	137
RE: you mean Shaq along w/an elite perimeter player, right?	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	139
so? a team needs more than 1 guy to win?	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	150
But Shaq always had another elite player and his teams w/each of those	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	152
RE: But Shaq always had another elite player	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	156
that's not true - LA was swept in 98/99 <---prime years and the years	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	160
Kobe was not in his prime yet in 98-99	DJR	Jul 28th 2015	162
Dude is just bammerizing the thread now	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	163
I already shot gaping holes in your arguments so you need to have. a sea...	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	164
Shaq w/Penny and Shaq w/Bean were all all-stars and all-NBA players	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	165
Tony Parker and Manu have like six All-NBA selections between them	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 29th 2015	170
Fox News-esque narrative	LA2Philly	Jul 29th 2015	175
Just wanted to point out how ppl did make a distinction between	vee-lover	Jul 29th 2015	166
Bron or Duncan but Lebron has been the better player between the	vee-lover	Jul 27th 2015	40
Whats great is that Kobe has no argument whatsoever.	bshelly	Jul 27th 2015	43
That's what Kobe haters like to think, but Kobe's the only one with a...	ThaTruth	Jul 27th 2015	46
Many players have said that repeating as champs is the toughest thing	LA2Philly	Jul 27th 2015	50
Lebron never amazed you enough to become your avi	LBs Finest	Jul 27th 2015	55
LOL	LA2Philly	Jul 28th 2015	73
Kobe:81pts, more all star/defense/nba first teams, 2 gold medals>1 bronz...	TRENDone	Jul 28th 2015	78
http://www.deeperstudy.com/img/philadelphia_satellite.jpg	LegacyNS	Jul 29th 2015	177
I voted Kobe.. and i HATE that dude...	My_SP1200_Broken_Again	Jul 30th 2015	187
Btw, "greatest" is Duncan but "best" is lebron	bshelly	Jul 27th 2015	44
The greatest talent on that list is Kobe, confirmed by Phil	LBs Finest	Jul 27th 2015	56
I guess that makes it true then lol smh	vee-lover	Jul 27th 2015	57
Feel showing how well he can evaluate talent right now	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 27th 2015	62
:-(	Cenario	Jul 28th 2015	81
Does Iverson get the "pound for pound" title among the list?	TRENDone	Jul 28th 2015	75
there's no need for a pound for pound designation	Cenario	Jul 28th 2015	82
the best player is Lebron, Shaq, then Duncan	Ill Jux	Jul 27th 2015	58
timmy kobe and lebron in that order	guru0509	Jul 27th 2015	61
I want to add Jason Kidd & Paul Pierce to my honorable mentions list...	TRENDone	Jul 28th 2015	77
No point in honorable mentions but if so gotta shout out Dirk.	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	79
I actually want Duncan, The Savior of the NBA to win this 'battle'	Dr Claw	Jul 28th 2015	83
btw, who is WB? I'm drawing a blank...	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	86
Westbrook maybe?	Kungset	Jul 28th 2015	96
oh ok, lol...I've never seen him referred to as "WB"	ThaTruth	Jul 28th 2015	104
me either, his moms and dads names ain't West and Brook lol	Kungset	Jul 28th 2015	110
Iverson should probably be replaced by Dirk on that list	Lach	Jul 28th 2015	89
or D. Wade...	LegacyNS	Jul 28th 2015	111
or no one	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	112
true but if we're filling out a top 6	Lach	Jul 28th 2015	116
i know what you're saying.	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	119
well, Wade did win a ring w/o Bron	LegacyNS	Jul 29th 2015	179
Whoever isn't choosing Kobe Bryant is lying to themselves.	Case_One	Jul 28th 2015	125
Folks just choosing Tim Duncan out of hate for the KB	Case_One	Jul 28th 2015	126
hate in all directions but mostly this one	Kungset	Jul 28th 2015	135
Oh so it has to be hate that ppl voted for a 5x chamlion/2x MVP/	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	138
doesn't have to be, but it's what it is	Kungset	Jul 28th 2015	141
kobe's resumé is great.	dula dibiasi	Jul 28th 2015	142
RE: kobe's resumé is great.	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	146
i don't think hate has nothing to do w/it - I voted Bron but I have no	vee-lover	Jul 28th 2015	143
Oh sorry did you miss where he won five rings and is gunning for No. 6?	ConcreteCharlie	Jul 28th 2015	148
Did you miss where Kobe won five 4 All-Star MVP's	Case_One	Jul 29th 2015	180
Smh - go have a seat and get ready for vacation bible-school class	vee-lover	Jul 29th 2015	181
lol	ternary_star	Jul 28th 2015	153
Oh what a difference an extra ring makes	melmag	Jul 29th 2015	173
Why is Iverson on this list?	Kira	Jul 29th 2015	176
the wings and things we sing about	DJR	Jul 29th 2015	178
cuz it's OKPhilly	Lach	Jul 29th 2015	182
the crossover, the influence, and his "pound for pound" title	TRENDone	Jul 30th 2015	188

Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59259 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:10 PM

1. "depends on how you defend greatest i guess"
In response to Reply # 0

for me its somewhere between duncan, kobe and shaq.

Duncan and Kobe were dominant and have the most jewelry but i think Shaq was the most dominant out of all them at their peak.

Lebron will likely be the answer when its all said and done.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:18 PM

4. "it's up to your interpretation...mine was between Kobe & Timmy"
In response to Reply # 1

I picked Timmy cuz he got rookie of the year, more all-first teams, more MVP trophies, and he's won rings in 3 decades.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
87122 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:32 PM

6. "Pretty much. "Greatest achiever" or "greatest to watch"?"
In response to Reply # 1

Those are potentially two different answers for a lot of people.

More Christmas movies coming in 2025...

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
15361 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:33 PM

7. "Best resume vs best player"
In response to Reply # 6

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:02 AM

103. ""great" to me always connotes resumé"
In response to Reply # 1

whether we're talking rappers, actors, directors, novelists, athletes, whatever. body of work, quality and quantity.

so in a greatness sense, this is tim for me and pretty easily.

now having said that. if we're talking prime peak, one rep max? shaquille in a landslide. that's a dude who was serving your ass a 40/20 for a series if you didn't triple him.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
15361 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:13 PM

2. "It's Lebron, you simple ass niggers"
In response to Reply # 0

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59259 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:14 PM

3. "right today it damn sure aint."
In response to Reply # 2

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:19 PM

5. "I was having a Kobe vs. Lebron discussion the other day"
In response to Reply # 2

i came to the conclusion that LBJ's 2 year run 2011-2013 was legendary...

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:44 PM

8. " "Now you tell me who won? I see them, they run..."(c)Pac"
In response to Reply # 0

http://hiphopoverload.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/r2hj.png

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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GOMEZ
Member since Feb 13th 2003
5661 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:13 PM

12. "Lately they run cuz they want to play for a winner though."
In response to Reply # 8

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
5563 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:49 PM

9. "RE: Greatest NBA player since Michael Jordan's last ring?"
In response to Reply # 0

Duncan. Best player on every title team and was a force the minute he came to the league.

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:57 PM

10. "I chose Tim also but..."
In response to Reply # 9

"Best player on every title team..."

this is false

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
5563 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:27 PM

14. "RE: I chose Tim also but..."
In response to Reply # 10

Which one did that not apply for?

Please do not base your response on who got FInals MVP or who had a hot series.

No one on his team has been better than Tim for the full regular season and playoff run to a title

In fact, his co-stars have cost him as many titles as they have helped him win, namely Ginobili and Parker.

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:50 PM

18. "Gimme a sec to argue Kawhi '13-'14 reg season"
In response to Reply # 14

Off top, I know Kawhi played more minutes.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
5563 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:58 PM

20. "RE: Gimme a sec to argue Kawhi '13-'14 reg season"
In response to Reply # 18

And in less minutes Duncan was getting 15.1 ppg, 9.7 boards, 2 blocks and 3 assists

Leonard was getting 12.8, 6.2, 2 assists and 2.3 steals.

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:14 PM

24. "RE: Gimme a sec to argue Kawhi '13-'14 reg season"
In response to Reply # 20

Timmy got more pts cuz the offense ran thru him. They didn't call plays for Kawhi.

As far as rebs, Tim will get more due to size & position. Tim was the anchor in the middle but Kawhi was the capt on D. He shoulda got DPOY that year & Draymond shoulda got it last year.

Aside from my SDSU bias, I'm also picking Kawhi cuz the leap he made that season. I want to say Tim's #s dropped from '12-'13 but correct me if i'm wrong.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
26427 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:33 PM

26. "so...Tim got more numbers because he was the focal point"
In response to Reply # 24

but that somehow makes Kawhi "better"? lol.
-----------
Its 2014...there are computers in glasses and people stunt after hitting the ball far. Get over it. -Cenario
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:33 AM

74. "Well Tony Parker averaged more points than Tim Duncan '13-'14"
In response to Reply # 26
Tue Jul-28-15 01:52 AM by TRENDone

in very basic terms the Spurs '13-'14 team was "a system team...a well oiled machine..." Parker ran the offense thru Timmy but Kawhi was the motor of the offense. On D, Kawhi was the captain on the perimeter & always the first one back on defense.

'12-'13 to '13-'14: parker & duncan's #s & minutes dropped, but kawhi's #s went up while his minutes dropped from 31 to 29...

Duncan's off & def rating per 100: 106, 98
Kawhi: 116, 98

Kawhi had a higher WS/48 with 7.7/.193>7.4/.164...whatever that means lol do you guys want me to keep going?

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:09 PM

23. "Duncan was ASS in the 2007 Finals"
In response to Reply # 14

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:27 AM

64. "nah there was no need for him to go all out against a Cavs team that"
In response to Reply # 23

had no shot at beating them - that was the Spurs easiest series in the entire postseason that year

He took a step back and let TP do his thing...

In the WCF vs Pboenix Timmay balled out because he knew he had to

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:23 AM

84. "lol, he didn't take a "step back", he just didn't play well, the Cavs de..."
In response to Reply # 64

shut him down for the most part.

Shaq never had a Finals that bad.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:56 AM

102. "...the hell you talking bout, man?"
In response to Reply # 84
Tue Jul-28-15 11:11 AM by dula dibiasi

duncan in '07
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01/gamelog/2007/

had 2 great games (24pt 13rb 5blk in g1, 23pt 9rb 8ast in g2, combined .576 fg%) and then 2 bad games. spurs were never outscored when he was on the floor.

shaq in '06
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01/gamelog/2006/

had 4 good games (none as good as tim's first 2 in '07), 2 terrible games that were both far worse than tim's last 2 in '07, and a negative +/- in 5 of the 6.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:21 PM

113. "exactly, he got worse every game, i.e. "they shut him down""
In response to Reply # 102

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:30 PM

"you playing dumb?"

i was referring to the "Shaq never had a Finals that bad" bit.

duncan 07 >>> shaq 06

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 02:00 PM

174. "Shaq shot like 60% in the 06 Finals, Duncan shot 44% in 07, FOH!"
In response to Reply # 0

>i was referring to the "Shaq never had a Finals that bad"
>bit.
>
>duncan 07 >>> shaq 06

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Thu Jul-30-15 07:23 AM

184. "lulz!"
In response to Reply # 174

yeah and duncan averaged more points, rebounds, assists,
3x as many blocks, twice the steals. parker was the best player
in the 07 finals (16.2 average game score) but duncan wasn't
far behind (15.3), not like wade (25.4) and shaq (9.6) in 06.

spurs were a +24 in duncan's 149 minutes of floor time,
or +7.7 pts per 48.

miami was a -28 in the 211 minutes shaq was on the floor!
excluding the game 4 blowout, a -50 in 181 minutes!
that's -13.3 per 48! in a series they won!

they should've just rondoed that nigga off top! they might've swept!

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Thu Jul-30-15 08:46 AM

185. "lol, wtf is "average game score"? bottom line is part of the reason Wade..."
In response to Reply # 184

was able to do what he did was because Shaq was on the floor! MDE!

>yeah and duncan averaged more points, rebounds, assists,
>3x as many blocks, twice the steals. parker was the best
>player
>in the 07 finals (16.2 average game score) but duncan wasn't
>far behind (15.3), not like wade (25.4) and shaq (9.6) in 06.
>
>
>spurs were a +24 in duncan's 149 minutes of floor time,
>or +7.7 pts per 48.
>
>miami was a -28 in the 211 minutes shaq was on the floor!
>excluding the game 4 blowout, a -50 in 181 minutes!
>that's -13.3 per 48! in a series they won!
>
>they should've just rondoed that nigga off top! they might've
>swept!

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Thu Jul-30-15 08:55 AM

186. "THEY WERE SEVERELY OUTSCORED WHEN HE WAS ON THE FLOOR"
In response to Reply # 185

THEY WON THE SERIES IN THE MINUTES WHEN HE WAS ON THE BENCH

WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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Premiere
Member since Sep 02nd 2005
2177 posts

Thu Jul-30-15 12:56 AM

183. "Who cares if he had a Finals that bad?"
In response to Reply # 84

Duncan's team swept that Finals. And Duncan still has been amazing longer. Shaq was reduced to a shell in Miami, much less in his waning years. The same years Duncan has spent as one of the league's best defensive players and as a member of a team making the conference finals basically every year (other than last year's aberrational slaughterhouse first round).

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:06 AM

90. "yeah Drew Gooden locked him up - again that was the easiest"
In response to Reply # 64

series for the Spurs in the postseason and even now we see Duncan have subpar gms only to come back in a pivotal game and be the best player on the court

>had no shot at beating them - that was the Spurs easiest
>series in the entire postseason that year
>
>He took a step back and let TP do his thing...
>
>In the WCF vs Pboenix Timmay balled out because he knew he had
>to

grassrootsphilosopher

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Creole
Charter member
15428 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 12:58 PM

11. "TOUGH!"
In response to Reply # 0

Based on different criteria, the greatest...

...player that I enjoyed watching during this period is AI.

...overall player is Kobe.

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TheRealBillyOcean
Charter member
38230 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:21 PM

13. "One of those is not like the other. "
In response to Reply # 0

You should move him out for D-Wade.

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
5563 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:29 PM

15. "RE: Greatest NBA player since Michael Jordan's last ring?"
In response to Reply # 0

Knowing what you know now, as GM of a team with the first pick...why would you ever pick Kobe over Duncan unless you are a Lakers fan?

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
16290 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:33 PM

16. "Robert Horry."
In response to Reply # 0

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 04:00 PM

38. "#RingsMatter"
In response to Reply # 16

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:36 PM

17. "Timmy. Consistent greatness combined with longevity "
In response to Reply # 0

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:11 PM

30. "Bill Russell of his era,the best team player/career,not the best player ..."
In response to Reply # 17
Mon Jul-27-15 03:12 PM by ConcreteCharlie

Plus LeBron got plenty of LeBronning left to do, where as Tim has like two more years most likely.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 01:52 PM

19. "Spinoff: biggest impact straight outta high school? Kobe, LBJ, or KG?"
In response to Reply # 0

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
45011 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:07 PM

22. "That'd be LeBron. Fairly easliy."
In response to Reply # 19

Averaged 21 points a game and was a borderline all-star his rookie year. Only one of the three that won ROY. Started every game he played in and was the best player on the Cavs as a rookie.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:20 PM

25. "Zone D allowed in 2001...hand checking banned 2004 lol"
In response to Reply # 22

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
45011 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:35 PM

27. "Yeah, that doesn't make a difference here though"
In response to Reply # 25
Mon Jul-27-15 02:35 PM by mrhood75

Garnett was for all intents and purposes Patient Zero when it came to players jumping from high school directly to the NBA from the mid '90s to the mid '00s (yes, I'm aware that there were others before him, but Garnett started the revolution). As a result, the Wolves probably exercised a little more caution when it came to developing him. Even considering that, LeBron was the most NBA-ready of the three out of the gate. Kobe spent a good chunk of his rookie season playing only during garbage time.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:48 PM

33. "RE: Yeah, that doesn't make a difference here though"
In response to Reply # 27

>Garnett was for all intents and purposes Patient Zero when it
>came to players jumping from high school directly to the NBA
>from the mid '90s to the mid '00s (yes, I'm aware that there
>were others before him, but Garnett started the revolution).
>As a result, the Wolves probably exercised a little more
>caution when it came to developing him. Even considering that,
>LeBron was the most NBA-ready of the three out of the gate.
>Kobe spent a good chunk of his rookie season playing only
>during garbage time.

part of that was because Kobe was a rookie on a playoff team, Lebron was a rookie on a lottery team

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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melmag
Charter member
18472 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 07:33 PM

45. "poor excuse"
In response to Reply # 33

Bron as a rookie wouldve STARTED on dem same 9Laker playoff teams.
you mean to tell me Bron woulda been benched for fuckin Ceballos or Rick Fox?? lmaooo. jokes on you

>part of that was because Kobe was a rookie on a playoff team,
>Lebron was a rookie on a lottery team
>

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 07:58 PM

47. "rookie Lebron couldn't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag"
In response to Reply # 45

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
45011 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 09:25 PM

51. "By that argument, neither could Kobe. They had the same FG%..."
In response to Reply # 47

...their rookie years. Only James averaged 13.5 more points a game and lead substantially in just about every other statiscal category.

Kobe became who he became. But LeBron was much more NBA ready his rookie year, and would have started for the just about every NBA team that season.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:04 AM

70. "21/6/6 and shoulda been one of the few rookies ever in league history"
In response to Reply # 47

to make the all-star team:-(

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:24 AM

85. "shooting 41% on a 35 win team? "
In response to Reply # 70

>to make the all-star team:-(

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:51 AM

88. "Kobe is a *career* 45% shooter and 41% is the lowest in Bron's career"
In response to Reply # 85
Tue Jul-28-15 10:00 AM by vee-lover

And he was the best player on an awful team that featured Ricky Davis

And NO ONE thought Lebron was going to average 20+ ppg as a rookie who came into the league not known as a shooter/scorer

Kobe shot 41% as a rookie and wasn't much better (.428%) the next season when he made the all-star team (and he wasn't even a starter lol)

As a Kobe stan, you should avoid the FG% argument

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:00 PM

122. "bottom line, up until recently players on losing teams didn't make the....."
In response to Reply # 88
Tue Jul-28-15 03:00 PM by ThaTruth

ASG

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:31 PM

128. "Nah man everybody knew Lebron should've been in the ASG but it"
In response to Reply # 122

came down to him or Jamaal Magloire and they went w/seniority because the prevailing sentiment was that Bron would make plenty of all-star teams and that was going to be Magloire's only opportunity to make an all-star team

And for the record, Magloire was on a Hornets team that finished 41-41

>ASG
>
>

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:21 AM

92. "Kobe was behind Eddie Jones, an all star caliber SG"
In response to Reply # 45
Tue Jul-28-15 10:25 AM by DJR

Lebron would've started because.....the Lakers SF's were mediocre players.

Different positions, different situations.

Kobe probably could've put up 20 ppg while shooting poorly on a bad team as a rookie too.

Trying to compare rookie stats when Kobe was on one of the most talented teams in the league, while Lebron was on one of the least talented teams in the league is pointless. They both could play and had a ton of skills and raw talent, but the opportunities were much different.

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-DJ R-Tistic-
Member since Nov 06th 2008
51988 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:36 PM

118. "Yep for sure. AND Del Harris was a different type of coach"
In response to Reply # 92

Lebron was def more NBA Ready, but it was surely a different situation. AND...Kobe broke that wall down even further, after Garnett had already made impact. Both KG and Kobe really had folks looking closer at HS players than at college players.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:46 PM

120. "Kobe was NOT ready to be a starter in the NBA his 1st season in"
In response to Reply # 92

the league...even though he made the all-star team the following season it still took him to adjust his game to the NBA...he was a ball hog from day 1 and it took Phil to rein him in

>Lebron would've started because.....the Lakers SF's were
>mediocre players.
>
>Different positions, different situations.
>
>Kobe probably could've put up 20 ppg while shooting poorly on
>a bad team as a rookie too.
>
>Trying to compare rookie stats when Kobe was on one of the
>most talented teams in the league, while Lebron was on one of
>the least talented teams in the league is pointless. They
>both could play and had a ton of skills and raw talent, but
>the opportunities were much different.
>
>

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:27 PM

127. "not on a 56 win team with an AS caliber 25 year old SG"
In response to Reply # 120

But he probably could've started and scored a lot of points on a bad team.

His skill level and athleticism were very, very high.

Doesn't really matter anyway though. The point is, comparing Kobe and Lebron's rookie stats is pointless because they were in completely different situations.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:09 PM

134. "It wasn't just because he was on a winning team why he wasn't"
In response to Reply # 127

ready to start in the NBA just like Lebron starting wasn't because he was on a bad team - Lebron came into the league as an unselfish player and having a feel for the game that no one had seen from an 18 yr old kid

Kobe came into the league gunning even on a team w/vets and all-stars...he froze Malone out in an ASG game

Shaq said he and other teammates would have to go to Brian Shaw who acted as a mediator according to Shaq and tell him to tell Kobe STOP shooting so much

So it had nothing to do w/being on a 56 win team because Kobe was playing as if he was on a bad team lol

d scored a lot of points
>on a Numerou.
>
>His skill level and athleticism were very, very high.
>
>Doesn't really matter anyway though. The point is, comparing
>Kobe and Lebron's rookie stats is pointless because they were
>in completely different situations.

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 06:40 PM

149. "and none of that disproves what I said"
In response to Reply # 134

Kobe was talented enough and fully capable of putting up #s on a bad team, right away regardless of being headstrong or shooting too much. I mean......you think scrub teams would keep him on the bench for shooting too much?

The Lakers didn't really need him that year....Eddie Jones was really good.

Again....who cares, though? None of this matters. I was just addressing the other guy's point of "Kobe didn't play a lot as a rookie, and Lebron started AND would've started for the Lakers"......backing up Eddie Jones is not the same as backing up Jerome Kersey/Robert Horry.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 07:37 PM

155. "it doesn't if you think just being able to score and jack up tons of "
In response to Reply # 149

shots is what makes a player ready to play in the NBA

The reason why Lebron was the only high school player ready to play in the NBA from day 1 had very little to do w/him being able to score...it was his unselfishness and overall feel for the game at such a young age and no college experience

Kobe had to learn that and he never fully embraced being a team player even now

And just because Kobe would've been on a bad team doesn't mean he wouldn't have had issues w/the vets on the team...because Paul Silas said ppl don't realize how difficult it was for Lebron his rookie season trying to ingratiate himself to the vets who didn't want to genuflect to a rookie...and Bron was going out of his way to appease dudes like Ricky Davis and other vets

Playing on a good team full of veterans made or should have made his transition easier than going to a bad team where the organization hands over the keys to an 18 yr old to carry the franchise

>Kobe was talented enough and fully capable of putting up #s
>on a bad team, right away regardless of being headstrong or
>shooting too much. I mean......you think scrub teams would
>keep him on the bench for shooting too much?
>
>The Lakers didn't really need him that year....Eddie Jones was
>really good.
>
>Again....who cares, though? None of this matters. I was
>just addressing the other guy's point of "Kobe didn't play a
>lot as a rookie, and Lebron started AND would've started for
>the Lakers"......backing up Eddie Jones is not the same as
>backing up Jerome Kersey/Robert Horry.

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 08:02 PM

159. "RE: it doesn't if you think just being able to score and jack up tons of..."
In response to Reply # 155
Tue Jul-28-15 08:03 PM by DJR

>
>Playing on a good team full of veterans made or should have
>made his transition easier than going to a bad team where the
>organization hands over the keys to an 18 yr old to carry the
>franchise
>

Kobe made the all star team on a 62 win team in year 2(once they unleashed him a little more), and won a 'chip in year 4.

All things considered, his transition went well. He just didn't get a ton of opportunity in year 1, which was understandable....but he was certainly good enough to produce more if given the chance.

Regardless, year 1 is irrelevant to any Lebron-Kobe debate IMO.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 08:15 PM

161. "RE: it doesn't if you think just being able to score and jack up tons of..."
In response to Reply # 159

>>
>>Playing on a good team full of veterans made or should have
>>made his transition easier than going to a bad team where
>the
>>organization hands over the keys to an 18 yr old to carry
>the
>>franchise
>>
>
>Kobe made the all star team on a 62 win team in year 2(once
>they unleashed him a little more), and won a 'chip in year 4.

Again, playing on a team w/3 all-stars that won 62 gms probably is what he needed to help his transition to the league...you don't know how difficult it might have been had he went to a bad team thinking he had to score/shoot the ball

Teammates on the Lakers had issues w/him shooting too much on a team that didn't need that from him...I'm not so sure he would have had the same results had he gone to a bad team like te Cavs
>
>All things considered, his transition went well. He just
>didn't get a ton of opportunity in year 1, which was
>understandable....but he was certainly good enough to produce
>more if given the chance.
>
>Regardless, year 1 is irrelevant to any Lebron-Kobe debate
>IMO.

grassrootsphilosopher

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melmag
Charter member
18472 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:17 PM

31. "c'mon"
In response to Reply # 19

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:59 PM

37. "LeBron EASILY. Only comparison would be Moses Malone."
In response to Reply # 19

Moses Malone as a rookie averaged like 19/15 on 57% shooting, albeit in the ABA. He and LeBron are in a class by themselves.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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TheRealBillyOcean
Charter member
38230 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 08:02 PM

48. "Impact on the game? I'd say KG."
In response to Reply # 19

Nobody was thinking about jumping straight to the NBA before KG did it.

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:51 PM

59. "Also consider his economic impact and basketball-wise, too"
In response to Reply # 48

He brought the rangy four into fashion and his contract basically broke the camel's back as far as the whole salary structure in the NBA.

I thought the question was more about their impact on the court and the immediate impact, but yes under certain terms one could argue for KG.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:53 AM

76. "all of that...n/m"
In response to Reply # 48

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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JAESCOTT777
Member since Feb 18th 2006
28487 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:03 PM

21. "Tie between Kobe and Duncan to me "
In response to Reply # 0

Lean more towards Kobe mostly based on what I've seen him do
I mean some on the tears he went on around 09
We're just unhuman

And game 1 vs Boston in the finals they lost
Will go down as one of most incredible individual performances I ever seen

The shots he was hitting? Jesus Christ

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16105 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 02:52 PM

28. "Duncan"
In response to Reply # 0

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:11 PM

29. "Shaq only two votes? What!?! I can't believe how this Duncan-Shaq ..."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jul-27-15 03:11 PM by ConcreteCharlie

narrative has shifted. Yes, Duncan has accomplished a lot since Shaq left the league but he also entered it earlier. Admittedly he has aged more gracefully but in terms of individual dominance and head-to-head I still give the edge to Shaq.

To me this is a Shaq vs LeBron poll, with all due respect to Kobe and Duncan. Probably we could have ended at five options and had "other" as the fifth one.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
5563 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:41 PM

32. "RE: Shaq only two votes? What!?! I can't believe how this Duncan-Shaq ....."
In response to Reply # 29

Well, you appear to be in a distinct minority on that last point.

Shaq should have more votes vis-a-vis Kobe but I doubt there is a single GM in the league who, knowing what they know now, would pick Shaq over Duncan as rookies.

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:50 PM

35. "you're either crazy, young, or a combination of the 2, lol..."
In response to Reply # 32

>I doubt there
>is a single GM in the league who, knowing what they know now,
>would pick Shaq over Duncan as rookies.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:56 PM

36. "I mean he played 18 years, still an all-star in year 16."
In response to Reply # 32

He won four rings to Duncan's five and he was much more dominant at the offensive end (his defense is often unfairly maligned, too, though I admit Duncan's is better).

Duncan is in year 19 now and still at a high level but let's not act like he has not had dips either. You had to wonder if after being eliminated by Memphis they weren't done. That to me is the only real argument for Duncan, he came back, lost weight and had a second moment. But Shaq had no shortage of moments and their early careers were similar in terms of immediate impact. Prime for prime, Shaq was one of the greatest forces ever seen and even more so in the playoffs. What he did during the Lakers three-peat was some utterly dominant shit, easily the closest thing we have seen to Jordan in terms of killing it in the playoffs.

I just think time has somehow been unkind to Shaq, I mean he was undeniably the best player on the planet and that was when Duncan was also in his prime.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:08 AM

71. "this is absurd, and i'm a duncan guy."
In response to Reply # 32

>I doubt there is a single GM in the league who, knowing what they >know now, would pick Shaq over Duncan as rookies.
>
>

no way in hell that's unanimous. zero chance.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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COOLEHMAGAZINE
Member since May 22nd 2007
5563 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 05:27 PM

144. "RE: this is absurd, and i'm a duncan guy."
In response to Reply # 71

Both guys are once in a lifetime talents who come in ready to dominate on Day 1.

One is the consumate leader, loyal to the franchise that drafted him, dedicated to his conditioning and extending his career, incredible teammate who will still be playing at a high level the day he retires.

The other is easily distracted off the court, bounces around the league chasing rings, makes no attempt to stay in shape and the tail end of his career is semi-embarassing.

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Now as a GM, how do you lose going with option one?

I'm from the lost black tribe of Israel, the Yos

http://coolehmag.com/frontEnd/

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 03:49 PM

34. "pretty much, lol"
In response to Reply # 29

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
15361 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 04:01 PM

39. "Yeah, Shaq and Bron are the only two viable choices"
In response to Reply # 29

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 06:00 PM

41. "For a player to be as dominant as Shaq was, I can't think of another"
In response to Reply # 29
Mon Jul-27-15 06:19 PM by vee-lover

all-time great whose teams have been swept more than the teams Shaq have played on

-swept by the Bulls in 1996
-swept by the Rockets 1995
-swept by Utah 1998 (also lost 4-1 to Utah in 1997 playoffs)
-swept by the Spurs 1999
-a gentleman's sweep vs the Pistons 2004
-swept by Chicago in 1st rd the yr after Miami won the title 2007

Just to name a few...and its not as if he hasn't been on some really good teams playing alongside more talented teammates/2nd options than any of the other players in this poll

And we know that for all his dominance he could be a liabiltiy because of his horrid ft shooting

After 98 which is when we're measuring these respective players, Shaq had abt a good 6 yr run of dominance before he started to fade

Meanwhile Duncan has still since then, for the most part, played at a high level

>narrative has shifted. Yes, Duncan has accomplished a lot
>since Shaq left the league but he also entered it earlier.
>Admittedly he has aged more gracefully but in terms of
>individual dominance and head-to-head I still give the edge to
>Shaq.
>
>To me this is a Shaq vs LeBron poll, with all due respect to
>Kobe and Duncan. Probably we could have ended at five options
>and had "other" as the fifth one.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 07:16 PM

42. "lol, Duncan's had his share of sweeps and "gentleman's sweep" L's..."
In response to Reply # 41

on his resume', some of them to Shaq...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-jazz.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-jazz.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2002-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-lakers.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-lakers.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-western-conference-first-round-mavericks-vs-spurs.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-suns.html

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 08:23 PM

49. "RE: lol, Duncan's had his share of sweeps and "gentleman's sweep" L's..."
In response to Reply # 42

>on his resume', some of them to Shaq...
>
>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-jazz.html
EDIT: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2001-nba-western-conference-finals-lakers-vs-spurs.html
>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2002-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-lakers.html
>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-lakers.html
>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-western-conference-first-round-mavericks-vs-spurs.html
>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-suns.html

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:20 AM

63. "if you had actually watched those series instead of simply doing your"
In response to Reply # 49
Tue Jul-28-15 12:50 AM by vee-lover

googles you'd know that ONLY ONE of those series losses/sweeps occurred when the Spurs were at FULL strength

They lost to both Utah and LA w/Sean Elliott (their best perimter defender) being injured and couldn't even really play in the LA series leaving Kobe to feast on a 6-1 Antonio Daniels who was simpy too small and outmatched against Bean

Against the Mavs it was Ginobili who missed that entire series

The only one you listed that was a legitimate sweep was against Phoenix (even though Parker dealt w/injuries that entire season appearing in less than 60 gms but he came back for the postseason)

So Duncan's resume is still more impressive than Shaq's who has far too many sweeps and 5-gm losses on his resume for someone to be regarded as "the most dominant player of his generation" and Timmay could very well end up w/another one before he's done

This is why of the choices given the CORRECT ORDER is as follows: 1.) Kang 2.) Timmay 3.) Shaq 4.) Kobe

>>on his resume', some of them to Shaq...
>>
>>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-jazz.html
>EDIT:
>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2001-nba-western-conference-finals-lakers-vs-spurs.html
>>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2002-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-lakers.html
>>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-lakers.html
>>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-western-conference-first-round-mavericks-vs-spurs.html
>>http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-semifinals-spurs-vs-suns.html
>

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:28 AM

65. "^^^PLEAS COPPED"
In response to Reply # 63

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:40 AM

66. "its called common sense...nevertheless, Shaq still has more"
In response to Reply # 65
Tue Jul-28-15 12:55 AM by vee-lover

(embarrassing) losses/sweeps/gentleman's sweeps in his career than Duncan who has NEVER once had a 2nd option anywhere close to a Penny Hardaway, Bean, or DWade

Duncan swept Shaq and his sidekick when they were at full strength LOL

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:40 AM

67. "Sean Elliott was a good player and a good guy but let's not go nuts"
In response to Reply # 63

He is hardly the difference between a sweep and a tight series.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:45 AM

68. "what??? he was their best perimter defender and he was 7 inches taller"
In response to Reply # 67

taller than Daniels who was put into the lineup in that series and couldn't guard Kobe to save his life

Him starting (out of position) threw their whole rotation off

>He is hardly the difference between a sweep and a tight
>series.

grassrootsphilosopher

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:09 AM

72. "Always fun to only apply context in one direction "
In response to Reply # 63

More insight into your selective attention and twisted memory fails: Antonio Daniels is 6'4, not 6'1.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 06:14 AM

80. "Google is NOT your frifriend"
In response to Reply # 72
Tue Jul-28-15 06:18 AM by vee-lover

Guards
Chauncey Billups 6'3 207 pounds
Tracy McGrady 6'6 1/4 205 pounds
Brevin Knight 5'9 172 pounds
Antonio Daniels 6'2 191 pounds
Bobby Jackson 5'11 184 pounds
Anthony Parker 6'5 202 pounds
Derek Anderson 6'3 188 pounds

And I have seen him listed as 6-1...anyhoo he was at a serious disadvantage trying to defend the bigger Kobe

Nice try though troll

>Moreansight into your selective attention and twisted memory
>fails: Antonio Daniels is 6'4, not 6'1.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:49 AM

87. "Oh but it is"
In response to Reply # 80

Basketball Reference, Wikipedia, Yahoo all have him at 6'4". He was listed at 6'4" throughout his career. He is definitely taller than 6'2".

Even if he were 6'2", nice quick math, because Elliott was listed at (a generous) 6'8".

We are talking four inches of height difference max.

And no that doesn't take a sweep to a seven-game series.

Way to totally skirt the times Shaq just shat on Duncan during Shaq's reign of terror. 2003 Shaq was stumbling around out of shape and Duncan showed no quarter after the way Shaq gave it to him earlier.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:07 AM

91. "That '03 team was was on fumes and our depth was so thin "
In response to Reply # 87

Considering the 3 prior playoff runs, it's only natural that guys were gonna be gassed...that takes a huge toll on your body, especially if you don't take care of yourself physically, as you noted with Shaq. Also, unlike prior years, Fish and particularly Horry had to play big regular season minutes and you could see the dip in their play that post-season. Horry's legs were completely done (he went 1 for 19, I believe, in that post-season from behind the arch) which affected his offensive spacing ability and he was also tasked with guarding bigs defensively.

Obviously context works both ways, you can clearly separate disengenous posters when it's only used one way. As far as height, Vee-Lover is like the clown who shows up on CNN saying that global warming isn't real because there's one source out of 100 that says otherwise.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:40 AM

95. "Funny how no one gave those same concessions to Bron/Heat"
In response to Reply # 91

last season when they lost to the Heat after going to 4 straight finals (if I'm not mistaken that's more than 3)

The same could be argued for the Spurs in 08 when they lost to LA in 08 after having won the championship the year before

>Considering the 3 prior playoff runs, it's only natural that
>guys were gonna be gassed...that takes a huge toll on your
>body, especially if you don't take care of yourself
>physically, as you noted with Shaq. Also, unlike prior years,
>Fish and particularly Horry had to play big regular season
>minutes and you could see the dip in their play that
>post-season. Horry's legs were completely done (he went 1 for
>19, I believe, in that post-season from behind the arch) which
>affected his offensive spacing ability and he was also tasked
>with guarding bigs defensively.
>
>Obviously context works both ways, you can clearly separate
>disengenous posters when it's only used one way. As far as
>height, Vee-Lover is like the clown who shows up on CNN saying
>that global warming isn't real because there's one source out
>of 100 that says otherwise.

No, fool I just know that Daniels was at a serious disadvantage trying to defend the bigger Kobe whether he was 6-1 6-2 6-4 ...and omly a small-minded dude like you wants to get hung up on Daniels height as opposed to the real issue which was the Spurs had no one to defend Kobe once Elliott couldn't go

grassrootsphilosopher

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:54 AM

100. "I can't speak for everyone, but context always matters"
In response to Reply # 95

As for simple-minded due to focusing on height...you're the one who brought up the absolute height and mentioned it twice lmao. I simply showed that you were hyperbolizing the height difference in order to manufacture a disengenuous point, same way you hyperbolize context in a uni-directional manner to manufacture disengenuous points.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:02 PM

123. "Oh so you were saying the reason why the Heat lost was because of"
In response to Reply # 100
Tue Jul-28-15 03:18 PM by vee-lover

them being "gassed" from having gone to 4 straight finals? Because the rest of the basketball world sure wasn't saying that

In the grand scheme of things no one cares if a team is tired and have no legs, it's still an L

>As for simple-minded due to focusing on height...you're the
>one who brought up the absolute height and mentioned it twice
>lmao. I simply showed that you were hyperbolizing the height
>difference in order to manufacture a disengenuous point, same
>way you hyperbolize context in a uni-directional manner to
>manufacture disengenuous points.

Do you even remember that series? Because you would remember how everyone knew that was a big blow for the Spurs to lose Elliott who was their best perimeter defender at the time and one of their top scorers

Everyone knew the SMALLER Daniels had absolutely no shot at defending or even just slowing Bean down who was, unsurprisingly, the best player in that series prompting Shaq to say afterwards that Kobe was "the best player in the league by far" but that he was "the most dominant"

The Spurs had the better record of the two teams and I don't think LA was 4-0 better than the Spurs at full strength...they probably win that series w/Elliott in the starting lineup but I doubt it would've been a sweep

grassrootsphilosopher

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 01:24 AM

167. "RE: Oh so you were saying the reason why the Heat lost was because of"
In response to Reply # 123

>In the grand scheme of things no one cares if a team is tired
>and have no legs, it's still an L
>
In the grand scheme of things, an L is an L regardless of the context...yet here you are trying to provide context for the Spurs while on the other hand saying other context is irrelevant. The hypocrisy is so blatant, it's almost comical.

>>As for simple-minded due to focusing on height...you're the
>>one who brought up the absolute height and mentioned it
>twice
>>lmao. I simply showed that you were hyperbolizing the
>height
>>difference in order to manufacture a disengenuous point,
>same
>>way you hyperbolize context in a uni-directional manner to
>>manufacture disengenuous points.
>
>Do you even remember that series? Because you would remember
>how everyone knew that was a big blow for the Spurs to lose
>Elliott who was their best perimeter defender at the time and
>one of their top scorers
>
>Everyone knew the SMALLER Daniels had absolutely no shot at
>defending or even just slowing Bean down who was,
>unsurprisingly, the best player in that series prompting Shaq
>to say afterwards that Kobe was "the best player in the league
>by far" but that he was "the most dominant"
>
>The Spurs had the better record of the two teams and I don't
>think LA was 4-0 better than the Spurs at full strength...they
>probably win that series w/Elliott in the starting lineup but
>I doubt it would've been a sweep

I know the series extremely well, it was my team involved...I have all the games on VHS as well. Elliot was a blow but he wasn't coming close to stopping Kobe, he did not have the lateral quickness to keep him out of the lane and if he cheated, Kobe was still gonna pull-up for uncontested jumpers.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:44 AM

97. "i understand that all that but duncan still gets credit for going balls-..."
In response to Reply # 91

anyway what i am saying is that neither that nor the ass-handing the spurs gave the lakers in 99 negates what shaq did to duncan individually from 00-02, and of course let us not forget later showdowns en route to the finals where the Lakers got in that ass, too.

it makes me feel disgusting sticking up for the lakers but sheesh, how soon people forget

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:56 AM

101. "Completely agree, it cuts both ways"
In response to Reply # 97

I was agreeing with you above btw, just adding more context. Dude is trying to add qualifiers for the Spurs but then refuses to do so for the Lakers, it's just silly.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:24 AM

93. "So which one is the most reliable source? yahoo/Wikipedia/basketball"
In response to Reply # 87

reference or the measurements taken from the actual draft?

>Basketball Reference, Wikipedia, Yahoo all have him at 6'4".
>He was listed at 6'4" throughout his career. He is definitely
>taller than 6'2".
>
>Even if he were 6'2", nice quick math, because Elliott was
>listed at (a generous) 6'8".

Sean Elliott was actually listed at 6-9 at Arizona but even if he wasn't he still was bigger/stronger/taller and a better defender than Daniels who mostly guarded PGs...Elliott was actaully taller than Bean too
>
>We are talking four inches of height difference max.
>
>And no that doesn't take a sweep to a seven-game series.

Do you remember that series? The Spurs lost the first 2 gms at home (I think) and they were demoralized from that point on...which is why the last two gms were huge blowouts in LA

And not surprising Kobe was the player in that series who had his way against the Spurs
>
>Way to totally skirt the times Shaq just shat on Duncan during
>Shaq's reign of terror. 2003 Shaq was stumbling around out of
>shape and Duncan showed no quarter after the way Shaq gave it
>to him earlier.

Wrong again, Charlie - as I just pointed out to you, it was Shaq and Bean beating Duncan...and Duncan was still sending them home w/o having a player anywhere as good as Kobe as a 2nd option

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:47 AM

98. "i met elliott several times, no way was he 6'9""
In response to Reply # 93

at any rate, you can argue little fineries and cop pleas for SWEEPS all you want. head to head the, individual matchup, who was better? SHAQ. and the fact that he had kobe should detract from his numbers if anything, and it didn't. shaq from 00-02 was on a level with jordan and hakeem as the greatest playoff performers of the best 25 years. he was also outstanding in 04 and then again with miami for a couple years. his regular-season production also sons Duncan's. as individual players, this is not even a contest. getting into a bunch of other crap about leadership and professionalism and whatever, OK, you can give duncan the edge. this is almost a wilt-russell argument, which wouldn't be an argument in anyone's mind if the ring total were 5 to 4 instead of 11 to 2.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:28 PM

115. "Umm c'mere, Charlie and let Vlove holla at cha abt Shaq/TD head to"
In response to Reply # 98
Tue Jul-28-15 02:29 PM by vee-lover

head matchups

Remember you said Shaq dominated him in their head to head matchups? You said it was tantamount to Wilt/Russell and that the comparison wasn't even a contest

Well Charlie, you shoulda did ya googles before you spoke out of your arse
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01#stats_games_playoffs::none

Timmay has better numbers pretty much across the board...regular season and playoffs

MEN LIE, WOMEN LIE, NUMBERS DON'T

>at any rate, you can argue little fineries and cop pleas for
>SWEEPS all you want. head to head the, individual matchup, who
>was better? SHAQ. and the fact that he had kobe should detract
>from his numbers if anything, and it didn't. shaq from 00-02
>was on a level with jordan and hakeem as the greatest playoff
>performers of the best 25 years. he was also outstanding in 04
>and then again with miami for a couple years. his
>regular-season production also sons Duncan's. as individual
>players, this is not even a contest. getting into a bunch of
>other crap about leadership and professionalism and whatever,
>OK, you can give duncan the edge. this is almost a
>wilt-russell argument, which wouldn't be an argument in
>anyone's mind if the ring total were 5 to 4 instead of 11 to
>2.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:03 PM

132. "lol, nice trying including those Phoenix and Boston years and STILL..."
In response to Reply # 115

Duncan only beats him by .3ppg, lol. Shag CLEARLY dominates in FG%, blocks(I thought he didn't defend?) and WINS.

>head matchups
>
>Remember you said Shaq dominated him in their head to head
>matchups? You said it was tantamount to Wilt/Russell and that
>the comparison wasn't even a contest
>
>Well Charlie, you shoulda did ya googles before you spoke out
>of your arse
>http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01#stats_games_playoffs::none
>
>Timmay has better numbers pretty much across the
>board...regular season and playoffs
>
>MEN LIE, WOMEN LIE, NUMBERS DON'T
>
>
>
>>at any rate, you can argue little fineries and cop pleas for
>>SWEEPS all you want. head to head the, individual matchup,
>who
>>was better? SHAQ. and the fact that he had kobe should
>detract
>>from his numbers if anything, and it didn't. shaq from 00-02
>>was on a level with jordan and hakeem as the greatest
>playoff
>>performers of the best 25 years. he was also outstanding in
>04
>>and then again with miami for a couple years. his
>>regular-season production also sons Duncan's. as individual
>>players, this is not even a contest. getting into a bunch of
>>other crap about leadership and professionalism and
>whatever,
>>OK, you can give duncan the edge. this is almost a
>>wilt-russell argument, which wouldn't be an argument in
>>anyone's mind if the ring total were 5 to 4 instead of 11 to
>>2.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:15 PM

136. "feel free to recalibrate the stats then...either way its not lopsided li..."
In response to Reply # 132

Charlie was saying it was

And it ain't like Duncan's numbers didn't tail off over the years too...how long have ppl been saying Timmay was done???? At least for abt 4-5 seasons now...so there's that

>Duncan only beats him by .3ppg, lol. Shag CLEARLY dominates
>in FG%, blocks(I thought he didn't defend?) and WINS.

Where does Shaq rank on the all-time block shots per gm list? Did he ever once lead the league in bpg? No way Hakeem who is the all-time leader should be a better defensive player than Shaq...
>
>>head matchups
>>
>>Remember you said Shaq dominated him in their head to head
>>matchups? You said it was tantamount to Wilt/Russell and
>that
>>the comparison wasn't even a contest
>>
>>Well Charlie, you shoulda did ya googles before you spoke
>out
>>of your arse
>>http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01#stats_games_playoffs::none
>>
>>Timmay has better numbers pretty much across the
>>board...regular season and playoffs
>>
>>MEN LIE, WOMEN LIE, NUMBERS DON'T
>>
>>
>>
>>>at any rate, you can argue little fineries and cop pleas
>for
>>>SWEEPS all you want. head to head the, individual matchup,
>>who
>>>was better? SHAQ. and the fact that he had kobe should
>>detract
>>>from his numbers if anything, and it didn't. shaq from
>00-02
>>>was on a level with jordan and hakeem as the greatest
>>playoff
>>>performers of the best 25 years. he was also outstanding in
>>04
>>>and then again with miami for a couple years. his
>>>regular-season production also sons Duncan's. as individual
>>>players, this is not even a contest. getting into a bunch
>of
>>>other crap about leadership and professionalism and
>>whatever,
>>>OK, you can give duncan the edge. this is almost a
>>>wilt-russell argument, which wouldn't be an argument in
>>>anyone's mind if the ring total were 5 to 4 instead of 11
>to
>>>2.
>

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 05:35 PM

145. "lol, whut?"
In response to Reply # 115

Duncan is supposedly this defensive all-time great yet Shaq outblocks him 2:1. The scoring is dead even (way to CHEESILY slide in those crap years in like Cleveland, Boston, etc) yet Shaq is WAY more efficient. Shaq wins 18 games to Tim's 14, again with the corny twilight of his career thrown in there.

In the playoffs they are pretty even across the board but guess what? Shaq still was more efficient offensively and more aggressive defensively. They split the games but if you look at it Shaq wins three rings with Duncan in the West, Duncan wins two with Shaq in the West.

I also watched these games, man. And even beyond the head-to-head, man, look at what Shaq did in the playoffs OVERALL. Utter dominance. Duncan was the straw that stirred the drink, Shaq WAS the goddamn drink.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 07:47 PM

157. "take away the Cleveland/Boston seasons and its still pretty much a "
In response to Reply # 145

a wash

You said it wasn't close and that's clearly not the case

And its not like Duncan's stats haven't tailed off over the years (how many years have we been saying Timmay was done now???)

The difference between the two is what you and others aren't giving enough attention to is how Duncan re dedicated himself by changing up his regiment/conditioning...something Shaq never did except when he joined the Heat...he was motivated to show the Lakers

I like how you single out one stat as opposed to their overall numbers which are abt even and not like Wilt/Russell as you incorrectly stated

>Duncan is supposedly this defensive all-time great yet Shaq
>outblocks him 2:1.

So Shaq won DPOY? Was he ever a runner-up at least?

The scoring is dead even (way to CHEESILY
>slide in those crap years in like Cleveland, Boston, etc) yet
>Shaq is WAY more efficient. Shaq wins 18 games to Tim's 14,
>again with the corny twilight of his career thrown in there.
>
>In the playoffs they are pretty even across the board but
>guess what? Shaq still was more efficient offensively and more
>aggressive defensively. They split the games but if you look
>at it Shaq wins three rings with Duncan in the West, Duncan
>wins two with Shaq in the West.
>
>I also watched these games, man. And even beyond the
>head-to-head, man, look at what Shaq did in the playoffs
>OVERALL. Utter dominance. Duncan was the straw that stirred
>the drink, Shaq WAS the goddamn drink.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 01:30 AM

168. "By "not close" I mean Shaq was clearly better and he was"
In response to Reply # 157

Head to head in the playoffs won three of five series and don't sit here copping pleas about a second star because the Spurs have had plenty of good players and generally superior depth.

Obviously it was not some bludgeoning, these are two of the 20 best players ever we are talking about.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:36 AM

94. "excuses can be made the other way too"
In response to Reply # 63

1999.....Lakers were a mess. They had a midseason coaching change and had Kurt Rambis coaching in the playoffs. Enough said.

They had made a major mid season trade(Eddie Jones/Elden Campbell for Glen Rice) that upset their chemistry and given that it was only a 50 game season they didn't have time to gel.

They brought in Dennis Rodman, who quickly became more of a sideshow distraction than anything else.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 09:50 PM

52. "Shaq swept Duncan at least twice after Duncan swept him"
In response to Reply # 41

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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B.J.S.301
Member since Nov 30th 2005
7074 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 10:11 PM

53. "I picked Duncan but this is a valid point for Shaq."
In response to Reply # 29

Definitely a more dominant figure. I could see going for Shaq.

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 10:21 PM

54. "agreed, Shaq and Lebron are the choices"
In response to Reply # 29

They are the only two players on the list that had a multiple year run as the clear-cut best basketball player on the planet.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:52 PM

60. "Exactly, Kobe and Duncan were the best over certain periods"
In response to Reply # 54

But like you said as far as being the heavyweight champion of basketball, Shaq and Bron were the title holders.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:52 AM

69. "Over what period was Kobe definitively considered the best player?"
In response to Reply # 60

>But like you said as far as being the heavyweight champion of
>basketball, Shaq and Bron were the title holders.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:50 AM

99. "If you looked for example at 2000-2010, you'd have go give it to him"
In response to Reply # 69

Bron wasn't in the league for several seasons, Shaq was in decline from at least 08 onward, Kobe won five rings to Duncan's three during that period, Kobe put up HUGE numbers in the couple of years his teams weren't good and he was generally a very, very baaaaaad man.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:12 AM

105. "but it wasn't until the 2005 season when Kobe became the LEAD"
In response to Reply # 99

man in LA and during that time many felt Mcgrady was better or nust as good and I remember specifically Tim Legler saying to Greg Anthony he would take AI over Bean and when espn did the poll between who was the best between the two it was almost split down the middle

>Bron wasn't in the league for several seasons,

Bron (imo) was the BEST player in the league by 2008 and even if you take what most ppl believe was Kobe's best season (35ppg), Lebron still finished higher in the MVP vote than Bean (some publications had Bron as the MVP season)

Shaq was in
>decline from at least 08 onward

In 2005 Shaq proved he more valuable than Kobe because wben he left the Lakers didn't even make the playoffs after just having gone to the finals the year before and he almost took the Heat to the finals that same season

, Kobe won five rings to
>Duncan's three during that period

Huh??? Duncan had his 4th ring before Kobe had his 4th ring and he had more (deserving) MVPs and he won DPOY...something that Bean never achieved

, Kobe put up HUGE numbers in
>the couple of years his teams weren't good and he was
>generally a very, very baaaaaad man.

Ok but Bron was MVP by 2009 and he was in the same position Jordan was in before he won the title - we all knew Jorn was the best player even before he won his chips but until he won one no one was going to give him that title of best player over Magic/Bird...Bron was better than Kobe as far back as 2008 and I'm sure most ccoaches/GMs would've rather had Bron than Kobe

grassrootsphilosopher

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:58 AM

109. "nah, kobe finished ahead of shaq in mvp voting in '03 and '04."
In response to Reply # 105

at the very least, they were co-leads those last 2 years.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:43 PM

130. "despite who finished where in the MVP voting, Shaq proved he was"
In response to Reply # 109

the Lakers MVP after that 2004 season when he was traded

LA didn't make the postseason after having been in the finals the previous season

Yeah they lost Fisher that season too but even w/Fisher they wouldn't have made the playoffs

And do you honestly believe that if it were reversed that LA w/Shaq (minus Kobe) wouldn't have gotten a playoff spot? Shaq made the game easier for everyone around him because you had to double/triple team him

Meanwhile Shaq goes to Miami and they instantly become a championship contender...and almost win it all his 1st season when they only made it to the semifinals the season prior

>at the very least, they were co-leads those last 2 years.

grassrootsphilosopher

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:26 PM

140. "lolz"
In response to Reply # 130

"even in kobe's best season, lebron finished ahead of him in mvp voting"

but i make an assertion using the same criterion, and all of a sudden it's irrelevant.

smfh.

if 2 guys play on the same team, and one finishes higher in mvp voting, i think that's a pretty clear indication of who's "definitively considered the better player" at the time.

but that's just me.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 06:57 PM

151. "Because we got to see Shaq's and Kobe's real value beyond some"
In response to Reply # 140
Tue Jul-28-15 07:13 PM by vee-lover

damn votes when Shaq was traded and the Lakers couldn't even get an 8th seed despite Kobe being a "better player" in your opinion...Shaq took a team that wasn't a serious championship contender and instantly made them one while it took Kobe getting Phil back, trading for Pau, and Bynum growing up becoming a legit center for the Lakers to become a real contender post Shaq

Oh and what abt that 2004 finals vs Pistons? EVERYONE agreed that the Lakers lost because they stopped feeding Shaq the ball...even though Kobe was their "best player"...and we all know how Feel felt abt Bean after that series

That is in no way the same as comparing Lebron finishing higher than Bean in the 2005-06 MVP voting

I don't know why that's difficult for you to comprehend...maybe for you putting a premium on where someone finishes in the MVP vote determines who is a "better player" but I place emphasis on how they actually affect(ed) their teams...but that's just me...you know many ppl felt like Shaq should've won MVP over Nash in 2005 even though it could've been argued that Wade was the Heat's best player (GP said he and other teammates felt as if Wade was the Heat's best player)...see what I did right there

Oh and for the record, Lebron finishing
Ahead of Kobe in Bean's best statistical season ISN'T why I thought he was a better all-around player at that time lol

>"even in kobe's best season, lebron finished ahead of him in
>mvp voting"
>
>but i make an assertion using the same criterion, and all of a
>sudden it's irrelevant.
>
>smfh.
>
>if 2 guys play on the same team, and one finishes higher in
>mvp voting, i think that's a pretty clear indication of who's
>"definitively considered the better player" at the time.
>
>but that's just me.

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 07:32 PM

154. "to be fair, Shaq was traded to a team that had Wade"
In response to Reply # 151

who was turning into one of the best players in basketball.

Kobe had nobody anywhere near that level, and scrubs like Smush and Kwame in his starting 5.

I'm fully on Shaq/Lebron being the correct answer to this poll, with Kobe/Duncan right behind them. But c'mon.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 07:56 PM

158. "despite how good Wade was becoming, I don't think there's another "
In response to Reply # 154

*center* besides Shaq who could've made Miami an instant contender

>who was turning into one of the best players in basketball.
>
>Kobe had nobody anywhere near that level, and scrubs like
>Smush and Kwame in his starting 5.

Its not like I'm suggesting Kobe/Lakers should've been a championship contender...I'm saying a team that essentially lost ONE player and still had the "better player" between Kobe and Shaq (according to Dula) shouldn't have gone from playing in the finals the previous season to not even getting at least an 8th seed...

Do you honestly believe if the situation were reversed that Shaq/Lakers wouldn't have made the postseason????
>
>I'm fully on Shaq/Lebron being the correct answer to this
>poll, with Kobe/Duncan right behind them. But c'mon.

grassrootsphilosopher

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 01:41 AM

171. "and they didn't "just" lose shaq either, like dude keeps saying."
In response to Reply # 154

malone, payton, fisher and fox all left after the 04 finals as well. it was an entirely different team the next year.

>to be fair, Shaq was traded to a team that had Wade
>who was turning into one of the best players in basketball.
>
>Kobe had nobody anywhere near that level, and scrubs like
>Smush and Kwame in his starting 5.
>
>I'm fully on Shaq/Lebron being the correct answer to this
>poll, with Kobe/Duncan right behind them. But c'mon.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 01:32 AM

169. "lmaoooo. whatever, breh. you just hate kobe."
In response to Reply # 151

you're trying to act like dude was just some sidekick the entire time he played with shaq.

that wasn't the case, those last 2 years they were equals at worse and it's certainly arguable that kobe was the alpha.

shaq's ego couldn't take that shit, and hubris wouldn't allow himself to transition gracefully into a ma$e like cap and wilt did, which is why the shit eventually soured and they had to move him to miami. he and beaner prolly left another 3 titles on the table tbh, all because they couldn't play nice.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 09:47 AM

172. "got nothing to do w/hate but I understand that that's you and others"
In response to Reply # 169

default line of reasoning whenever someone refutes what you're saying lol

>you're trying to act like dude was just some sidekick the
>entire time he played with shaq.

NOT one time did I say that - I simply stated Shaq was their most valuable player because he was the one between the two that coaches double and triple teamed even when Kobe became the Lakers leading scorer...and in that finals everyone who knows anything abt hoops knows they lost that series because they (actually Kobe) stopped feedind the post (Phil and Isaiah Thomas both said this)...I personally believed Kobe was trying to win finals MVP because he more than anyone was aware of the perception that he was a sidekick/"Robin" to Shaq and winning ONE finals MVP out of four championships would've somewhat changed that perception...

Lastly, I said the following season further validated for me that Shaq was the most valuable player because of what happened w/the Lakers and the Heat...one team couldn't even get an 8th seed in the postseason and the other team instantaneously became title contenders...that to me defines what the true value of these two players

I don't want to hear abt the Lakers losing Malone and Payton etc...both them dudes were running on fumes...Malone retired after that season after having his WORST statistical season (13.6ppg)...both Odom and Butler averaged more points than both Malone and Payton...

I asked you, to which you didn't answer, that if the situation were reversed do you think Shaq/Odom/Butler as the team's core unit wouldn't have gotten at least an 8th spot in the playoffs? (rhetorical question)

>that wasn't the case, those last 2 years they were equals at
>worse and it's certainly arguable that kobe was the alpha.
>
>shaq's ego couldn't take that shit, and hubris wouldn't allow
>himself to transition gracefully into a ma$e like cap and wilt
>did, which is why the shit eventually soured and they had to
>move him to miami. he and beaner prolly left another 3 titles
>on the table tbh, all because they couldn't play nice.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 06:04 PM

147. "So? I'd argue he was very close in 03 and 04, then 05-10, no doubt"
In response to Reply # 105

And from 2000-2004 he was an excellent player.

Again, taking the decade in sum, Kobe is the guy. Yes, it helps him that his peaks bookend the decade but you could shift it a year or two in either direction and it would still be true. That said, there were few if any seasons where he was *clearly* the best player on the planet. But over the full span, yes, he was the best. I admit that freely.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:20 AM

106. "he's like Jay-Z"
In response to Reply # 69
Tue Jul-28-15 11:24 AM by DJR

In that you really can't pick out any one year where he was absolutely the top guy(though there are years where you can argue that he was the top guy), but there's a long period of time where he was without a doubt one of the top guys and given his consistency you can argue he was the best for that long time period.

From 2001 to around 2010 Kobe was one of the top players every year. But Shaq was the best for the first couple years, and you can argue guys like TMac, Duncan, Garnett, Wade, Lebron in the other years. But even if you do argue that Kobe was never #1, he was without a doubt top 5, and usually top 3 every single year.

*I'm referring to Jay's "status", I personally don't mess with most of his music(or these others I'm about to name) like that. But he was always one of the biggest rappers, but in a given year DMX(98-99), Eminem(00, 02), Ja Rule(01) 50 (03), etc. were bigger. Shout to DJ Rtistic who has made that Jay-Z post in the Lesson multiple times.

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:24 AM

107. "exactly, i've made the exact same analogy several times."
In response to Reply # 106

i'm too lazy to do the math right now, but i'd bet that over the decade kobe had the most cumulative points in mvp voting.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:47 AM

108. "Oh of course he was one of the top 5 players in the league over a"
In response to Reply # 106

long period of time but there was never a point where he was routinely referred to as thee "best player on the planet" like how ppl say that abt Lebron now or Jordan back in the day and no one dares questions it...that was never the case...ppl were debating Bean/Mcgrady in the 2000s and then it was Bron/Bean by 2008

>In that you really can't pick out any one year where he was
>absolutely the top guy(though there are years where you can
>argue that he was the top guy), but there's a long period of
>time where he was without a doubt one of the top guys and
>given his consistency you can argue he was the best for that
>long time period.
>
>From 2001 to around 2010 Kobe was one of the top players every
>year. But Shaq was the best for the first couple years, and
>you can argue guys like TMac, Duncan, Garnett, Wade, Lebron in
>the other years. But even if you do argue that Kobe was never
>#1, he was without a doubt top 5, and usually top 3 every
>single year.
>
>*I'm referring to Jay's "status", I personally don't mess with
>most of his music(or these others I'm about to name) like
>that. But he was always one of the biggest rappers, but in a
>given year DMX(98-99), Eminem(00, 02), Ja Rule(01) 50 (03),
>etc. were bigger. Shout to DJ Rtistic who has made that Jay-Z
>post in the Lesson multiple times.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:23 PM

114. "was there every a period when people said that about Duncan?"
In response to Reply # 108

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:36 PM

117. "No - Lebron is the first player post MJ where the consensus is he's"
In response to Reply # 114

the best player in the gm

In fairness to Duncan, though, he does get somewhat slighted because of his low-key personality and because he plays in a small market...and because of his game which is viewed as boring to some fans

But this is why Bron is or should be the clear-cut winner in this poll question

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:59 PM

121. "during the 3-peat years Shaq held that title."
In response to Reply # 117

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:17 PM

124. "Shaq sorta had his own category as the most dominant because "
In response to Reply # 121

everyone knew he wasn't exactly the most skilled player

His physicality was unparalleled and that was his advantage over anyone ppl compared him to

Even during that 3-peat run, there were some people who questioned his effort on the defensive end of the floor - I've always felt Shaq should've been a better defensive player/rim protector

Sports illustrated did a piece in 2002 (or 2003) when Duncan won MVP where some players who remained anonymous said the difference between Shaq and Duncan was that Duncan didn't take plays off and Shaq did

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:35 PM

129. "^^^PLEAS COPPED "
In response to Reply # 124

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:49 PM

131. "There's not a player before or since Shaq that ppl label 'most "
In response to Reply # 129

dominant' because his physicality was mainly the reason for his dominance

Notice you never heard anyone flat-out say he was the best player in the league

Nevertheless, that's (3 peat) still a very short span to hold that title

grassrootsphilosopher

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:04 PM

133. "lol, Spin it how you want, if you had Prime Shaq on your team you were....."
In response to Reply # 131

and automatic favorite to win it all

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:17 PM

137. "you mean Shaq along w/an elite perimeter player, right?"
In response to Reply # 133

grassrootsphilosopher

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:26 PM

139. "RE: you mean Shaq along w/an elite perimeter player, right?"
In response to Reply # 137

can't leave out that important piece of info

And his teams have still been swept more than Duncan's teams even playing alongside all-time greats/HOFers...go figure

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 06:45 PM

150. "so? a team needs more than 1 guy to win?"
In response to Reply # 137

You don't say.

In Shaq's prime, he was basically going for 35 and 15 in the playoffs whenever needed and his team was going to win no question about it. The 3 peat happened, and that's incredibly hard to do.

Shaq and Lebron(to a lesser extent so far) are the only guys you can say that about since Jordan(we all knew his team was winning, in his prime).

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 07:05 PM

152. "But Shaq always had another elite player and his teams w/each of those"
In response to Reply # 150

elite players were swept...he has better 2nd options than ANY PLAYER in this discussion

>You don't say.
>
>In Shaq's prime, he was basically going for 35 and 15 in the
>playoffs whenever needed and his team was going to win no
>question about it. The 3 peat happened, and that's incredibly
>hard to do.
>
>Shaq and Lebron(to a lesser extent so far) are the only guys
>you can say that about since Jordan(we all knew his team was
>winning, in his prime).

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 07:38 PM

156. "RE: But Shaq always had another elite player "
In response to Reply # 152
Tue Jul-28-15 07:40 PM by DJR

which is why they 3-peated. No apologies needed.

>elite players were swept...

eh. None of those sweeps happened when he and his #2 were in their primes. This "fact" isn't anything all that telling or glaring at all.

he has better 2nd options than ANY
>PLAYER in this discussion

Teams were constructed differently. He also didn't have a good 3rd option(Rice was ok in the first title). It was Shaq-Kobe and a bunch of role players......and yet they had one of the most dominant runs ever in 2001.

The Spurs were constructed differently, especially the post 2003 ones. Lebron had 2 HOF'ers. Kobe in 2009-10 had Gasol(not as good as Shaq-Kobe, but still very good), plus Bynum and Odom.(who were way better than the Lakers 3rd-4th best players in the 2000-2002 run). Even Artest still had a bit left in 2010....he was certainly much better than Rick Fox ever was.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 08:07 PM

160. "that's not true - LA was swept in 98/99 <---prime years and the years"
In response to Reply # 156

before then 95/96 he was still one of the top dominant centers in the league when Orlando was swept by Housto and Chicago

>eh. None of those sweeps happened when he and his #2 were in
>their primes.

grassrootsphilosopher

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:05 PM

162. "Kobe was not in his prime yet in 98-99"
In response to Reply # 160

And Shaq and Penny were in their early 20's in 1995. Due to injuries that ended up being Penny's "prime".....but c'mon. They were in their 2nd and 3rd years.

I didn't type all this out before because I felt like it went without saying.

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:02 PM

163. "Dude is just bammerizing the thread now"
In response to Reply # 162

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:13 PM

164. "I already shot gaping holes in your arguments so you need to have. a sea..."
In response to Reply # 163

grassrootsphilosopher

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:26 PM

165. "Shaq w/Penny and Shaq w/Bean were all all-stars and all-NBA players"
In response to Reply # 162

when they got embarrassed by Houston, Chicago, Utah, and SA

I think Penny was 1st team all-NBA

there is no reason for that Orlando team to have gotten swept - they were the favorites in that finals series

And then to turn around the following season and lose 4 straight to the Bulls in what everyone was expecting to be a highly competitive series

>And Shaq and Penny were in their early 20's in 1995. Due to
>injuries that ended up being Penny's "prime".....but c'mon.
>They were in their 2nd and 3rd years.
>
>I didn't type all this out before because I felt like it went
>without saying.

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 01:33 AM

170. "Tony Parker and Manu have like six All-NBA selections between them"
In response to Reply # 165

Did it stop from losing in the first round to Memphis? Duncan was wack in that series. They just lost in the first round last year with Duncan and Leonard both playing at a high level. I don't roast them for that but it's just to say that every team has its ups and downs and Duncan has not been some lone wolf getting blood from a stone. This narrative is so one-sided, sheesh.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 02:54 PM

175. "Fox News-esque narrative"
In response to Reply # 170

Doesn't even seem like an act, dude may actually be this dense

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 12:03 AM

166. "Just wanted to point out how ppl did make a distinction between"
In response to Reply # 129

"The most dominant player" vs "the best player" including Shaq who said after game 1 of the 2001 WCF vs the Spurs

They were each All-Stars, and First Team All-NBA plus Kobe was Second Team All-Defensive and the All Star Game MVP. Shaq had acknowledged Kobe as the best player in the game during the previous year’s playoffs and O’Neal was still the most dominant player in the game.

grassrootsphilosopher

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 04:02 PM

40. "Bron or Duncan but Lebron has been the better player between the"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jul-27-15 04:16 PM by vee-lover

two since 98 although Duncan/Spurs have won multiple titles since then but Duncan's individual production tailed off just a tad once TP and Manu started to come into their own (Parker was finals MVP in that 07 finals and Kawhi was finals MVP in the 14 finals)

but Lebron on the other hand has been dominant from day 1 and has only gotten better (4x MVP 2x champion). He is the ONLY athlete irrespective of the sport to not only live up to the enormous hype and expectations before even playing an NBA game but he surpassed it.

He is also the only one out of the choices in this poll who has been regarded as unequivocally the best player in the league for some time now. Duncan nor Kobe has ever gotten that acclaim (at least not w/o people challenging that). Hell, I'd also submit that most ppl, including ya'll voting in this poll, already rank Lebron higher than Duncan on the all-time greatest player list.

Besides, Kobe played behind Shaq for 9 seasons before he became the focal point of the Lakers so anyone who voted Bean did so just out of pure unobjective fandom

grassrootsphilosopher

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bshelly
Charter member
71730 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 07:30 PM

43. "Whats great is that Kobe has no argument whatsoever."
In response to Reply # 0

Lebron is so obviously superior to him in every category except ringz, but if you're going to ringz, you still have to concede that Timmay BETTER.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 07:55 PM

46. "That's what Kobe haters like to think, but Kobe's the only one with a..."
In response to Reply # 43

three-peat on his resume, he's basically owned Duncan's Spurs in the playoffs and he's undefeated in international play.

>Lebron is so obviously superior to him in every category
>except ringz, but if you're going to ringz, you still have to
>concede that Timmay BETTER.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 08:26 PM

50. "Many players have said that repeating as champs is the toughest thing "
In response to Reply # 46

Just ask the Timmy and the Spurs...so the 3-peat and then the b2b years later def hold some weight.

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LBs Finest
Member since Sep 28th 2005
19846 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:18 PM

55. "Lebron never amazed you enough to become your avi"
In response to Reply # 43

_________________________

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:10 AM

73. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 55

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:59 AM

78. "Kobe:81pts, more all star/defense/nba first teams, 2 gold medals>1 bronz..."
In response to Reply # 43
Tue Jul-28-15 02:00 AM by TRENDone

kompared to Duncan.

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38104 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 03:23 PM

177. "http://www.deeperstudy.com/img/philadelphia_satellite.jpg"
In response to Reply # 43

http://www.deeperstudy.com/img/philadelphia_satellite.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
Charter member
57068 posts

Thu Jul-30-15 12:14 PM

187. "I voted Kobe.. and i HATE that dude..."
In response to Reply # 43

...Lebron is close, then Shaq

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 11PM/EST >
https://twitch.tv/djchiefone

----Mixtape Archives-----
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone

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bshelly
Charter member
71730 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 07:31 PM

44. "Btw, "greatest" is Duncan but "best" is lebron"
In response to Reply # 0

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

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LBs Finest
Member since Sep 28th 2005
19846 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:20 PM

56. "The greatest talent on that list is Kobe, confirmed by Phil"
In response to Reply # 0

_________________________

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:24 PM

57. "I guess that makes it true then lol smh"
In response to Reply # 56

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:53 PM

62. "Feel showing how well he can evaluate talent right now"
In response to Reply # 56

He and Jorn fighting their way to the bottom together.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59259 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 08:09 AM

81. ":-("
In response to Reply # 62

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:37 AM

75. "Does Iverson get the "pound for pound" title among the list?"
In response to Reply # 56

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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Cenario
Member since Aug 24th 2005
59259 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 08:10 AM

82. "there's no need for a pound for pound designation"
In response to Reply # 75

they all competed in the same league lol

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

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Ill Jux
Member since Jan 19th 2007
14705 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:40 PM

58. "the best player is Lebron, Shaq, then Duncan"
In response to Reply # 0

if you want to go by by individual accomplishments and team accomplishments, Duncan wins.

______

in the memory of NYC upt JUX�

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guru0509
Charter member
46299 posts

Mon Jul-27-15 11:53 PM

61. "timmy kobe and lebron in that order"
In response to Reply # 0

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:55 AM

77. "I want to add Jason Kidd & Paul Pierce to my honorable mentions list..."
In response to Reply # 0

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:43 AM

79. "No point in honorable mentions but if so gotta shout out Dirk."
In response to Reply # 77

Anyway, there are only four choices for this poll, really.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
132357 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:03 AM

83. "I actually want Duncan, The Savior of the NBA to win this 'battle'"
In response to Reply # 0

even if I might not agree with that choice

the downstream effects of Lord Elmo Siceage might be a great byproduct

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:26 AM

86. "btw, who is WB? I'm drawing a blank..."
In response to Reply # 0

>honorable mentions: Dirk, VC, DWade, Grant Hill...
>
>new generation: Chef, KD, WB, AD...

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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Kungset
Member since Mar 29th 2004
6434 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 10:42 AM

96. "Westbrook maybe?"
In response to Reply # 86

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ThaTruth
Charter member
99998 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 11:05 AM

104. "oh ok, lol...I've never seen him referred to as "WB""
In response to Reply # 96

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

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Kungset
Member since Mar 29th 2004
6434 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 12:17 PM

110. "me either, his moms and dads names ain't West and Brook lol"
In response to Reply # 104

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Lach
Charter member
44430 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 09:55 AM

89. "Iverson should probably be replaced by Dirk on that list"
In response to Reply # 0

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38104 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 01:57 PM

111. "or D. Wade..."
In response to Reply # 89

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:03 PM

112. "or no one"
In response to Reply # 111

none of those guys are in the conversation.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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Lach
Charter member
44430 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:30 PM

116. "true but if we're filling out a top 6"
In response to Reply # 112

It aint Iverson.

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 02:43 PM

119. "i know what you're saying."
In response to Reply # 116

i get that there are 6 poll slots. i'm saying this poll doesn't need them all.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38104 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 08:32 PM

179. "well, Wade did win a ring w/o Bron"
In response to Reply # 112

*throws stone, waits for the Bron gonna win 8 rings club*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

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Case_One
Charter member
54687 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:20 PM

125. "Whoever isn't choosing Kobe Bryant is lying to themselves. "
In response to Reply # 0

.
.
.
"Love your haters until they can love themselves and then love them further." ~ J. Case

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Case_One
Charter member
54687 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 03:21 PM

126. "Folks just choosing Tim Duncan out of hate for the KB"
In response to Reply # 0

.
.
.
"Love your haters until they can love themselves and then love them further." ~ J. Case

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Kungset
Member since Mar 29th 2004
6434 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:12 PM

135. "hate in all directions but mostly this one "
In response to Reply # 126

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:23 PM

138. "Oh so it has to be hate that ppl voted for a 5x chamlion/2x MVP/"
In response to Reply # 135

DPOY/3x finals MVP/only player whose teams have won an average of 50+ gms every year he's been in the league

K

grassrootsphilosopher

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Kungset
Member since Mar 29th 2004
6434 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:30 PM

141. "doesn't have to be, but it's what it is"
In response to Reply # 138

that and short memories (especially when it comes to Shaq)

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dula dibiasi
Member since Apr 05th 2004
21925 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 04:40 PM

142. "kobe's resumé is great."
In response to Reply # 141

i just think tim's is a little better. definitely more consistent, they've been legit contenders basically every yr since he got there.

you're right about shaq. it's the wilt thing all over again. nobody likes rooting for goliath.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 05:43 PM

146. "RE: kobe's resumé is great."
In response to Reply # 142
Tue Jul-28-15 05:46 PM by vee-lover

>i just think tim's is a little better. definitely more
>consistent, they've been legit contenders basically every yr
>since he got there.
>
>you're right about shaq. it's the wilt thing all over again.
>nobody likes rooting for goliath.

Shaq's dominance hasn't always translated into his teams winning or being contenders

Duncan has never played w/a player as good as Penny Hardaway (he never played w/a prime DRob) let alone Kobe and Wade but his teams nonetheless have eliminated Shaq's teams just as much as Shaq's teams have eliminated his teams

Shaq was even asked during his retirement press conference does he feel like he got all he could out of his career...I think the difference w/Wilt vs Shaq was that a lot of ppl (I believe) felt like Wilt should've won MORE championships but no one could question his gaudy stats...Shaq on the other hand, as far as I'm concerned, is scrutinized more harshly because I personally feel as if he could've done more *statistically* - he averaged 30 ppg once in his career (I think)...he never one time led the league in rebounding and he dominated at a time when the center position was in a serious decline, at least as far as dominant centers are concerned...he never led the league in bpg...I watched him w/my own two eyes give away regular season gms because he wasn't in game-shape

For me things like the above examples work against Shaq in this discussion (imo)...there is no reason or excuse why he isn't regarded as the GOAT center...a lot of ppl, including Shaq himself, rank him 5th amongst big men....1.) Kareem 2.) Russell 3.) Wilt 4.) Hakeem 5.) Shaq

grassrootsphilosopher

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 05:25 PM

143. "i don't think hate has nothing to do w/it - I voted Bron but I have no"
In response to Reply # 141

issue w/ppl voting Duncan

As Dula said, he's the only player since Magic/Bird whose teams have been a contender every season - that fact alone is amazing to me

He has the same amount of titles as Bean...he has more MVPs...won DPOY...and he could very well get another ring before he's done...not to mention he is still playing at a high level while Bean is running on fumes...I trust Duncan right today moreso than any big man in the game

You act its clear-cut that Kobe has had a better career than Duncan

>that and short memories (especially when it comes to Shaq)

grassrootsphilosopher

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71387 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 06:05 PM

148. "Oh sorry did you miss where he won five rings and is gunning for No. 6?"
In response to Reply # 126

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

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Case_One
Charter member
54687 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 08:51 PM

180. "Did you miss where Kobe won five 4 All-Star MVP's"
In response to Reply # 148

.
.
.
"Love your haters until they can love themselves and then love them further." ~ J. Case

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
20388 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 10:18 PM

181. "Smh - go have a seat and get ready for vacation bible-school class"
In response to Reply # 180

tomorrow, rev

>
>
>
>.
>.
>.
>"Love your haters until they can love themselves and then love
>them further." ~ J. Case

grassrootsphilosopher

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ternary_star
Charter member
15213 posts

Tue Jul-28-15 07:09 PM

153. "lol"
In response to Reply # 0

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melmag
Charter member
18472 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 10:48 AM

173. "Oh what a difference an extra ring makes"
In response to Reply # 0

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2299771&mesg_id=2299771&page=172

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Kira
Member since Nov 14th 2004
28997 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 02:58 PM

176. "Why is Iverson on this list?"
In response to Reply # 0

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DJR
Member since Jan 01st 2005
20014 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 07:18 PM

178. "the wings and things we sing about"
In response to Reply # 176

bring 'em out

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d9/TGI_Fridays_logo.svg/1280px-TGI_Fridays_logo.svg.png

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Lach
Charter member
44430 posts

Wed Jul-29-15 11:21 PM

182. "cuz it's OKPhilly"
In response to Reply # 176

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TRENDone
Charter member
15616 posts

Thu Jul-30-15 02:21 PM

188. "the crossover, the influence, and his "pound for pound" title"
In response to Reply # 176

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

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Lobby

Okay Sports

topic #2468237

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