If anything, these finals should go in the plus column

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

that Kobe was held to.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
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Niggas hate cause he left Cleveland to win rings. Why shouldn't he have? He gonna stay with a franchise with no history of winning that ISN'T showing interest in taking in help to get him to titles? When EVERYBODY comparing him to Jordan? MEANWHILE loyal ass Kevin Garnett bounces after much disappointment in Minnesota and wins a ring with the Big Three?! With a WINNING franchise that cares about rings, and isn't just happy with filling the seats and jersey sales?

Every other person lauded for multiple rings - Kobe, Jordan, Duncan - stayed because help came to THEM. Meanwhile Lebron gets Anthony Parker??? FOH. Meanwhile this dude is going to Finals year in and year out, and has gotten to the point where if he's on the team your squad is in the ship. People keep wanting to hold Lebron to a "standard" but nothing is standard about his situation. At this point hating on Bron is like hating on a 17 year old that just graduated college, but only had a 3.5 gpa instead of a 4.0 and wasn't valedictorian.

________________________________________________
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#13irteen

The reaction to LeBron is a reaction to his marketing. From day 1. It was like Kobe's on steroids. And the more LeBron's hype seemed to be justified, the more intense it got. Not even Kobe, at his most marketed, and at his corniest, could compare.

LeBron himself essentially started to feed into it. The dancing on the sidelines, the Peyton Manning moments in the playoffs, and the ultimate Favre Milestone of his career: The Decision.

It's not that he left to go to Miami that he earned such wide-spread hate. The world, at large, really doesn't give a fuck about Cleveland THAT much (one reason, I made it my home in 2003). They might now, that he's here again, but nah.

LeBron's not the first free agent to choose his own destiny in pro-sports. You don't have to look any further than to SHAQ, whose first years in the NBA and exit from the team that drafted him are not all that different from Shaq.

(really, we don't talk enough about Shaq. He might have been the first star-post Jordan to really get the marketing blitz. He had rap albums, some legit tracks, video games, movies... Shaq was EVERYWHERE. And he dominated the NBA in a way we still haven't seen since.)

The only difference, LeBron, being the first star of the instant-gratification/social media era... had to go overboard with it. Turning a routine free agency signing into a public "Favre Moment" basically turned what should have been a Cleveland-only sodium infusion into a league-wide hate fest. Only went further when them dudes tried to be the nWo and shit, with the "Not 3, not 4, not 5..."


LeBron was at that point, and in many ways still is, the Peyton Manning of the NBA. He will sit in the record books for a LONG time, and has at least championship wins to at least escape the fry pan, but some of his playoff losses (2011, 2010 (NOPE), 2009) get way too many passes, and really, his Finals record does matter, even if you have to asterisk 2 of them.

And please note, I don't blame him for this Finals loss. Or even the last one with Miami, even though I found it funny as fuck if only for the LeBronies copping pleas. I don't even blame him for leaving Cleveland.

I do have a few minor personality-related issues with the dude ("Favre Mode", "Chill Mode", his occasional sips of Vicks 44 during high-pressure moments), but we gotta be real about why he gets SOME of this blowback, especially from Kobe fans who have to hear about how he's a volume-shooting cancer and a "cloak of darkness" upon the Lakers and their ability to move into the future.

"6-24" was a thing here.

LeBron had a few of those games these playoffs (perhaps due to necessity), most notably in the Bulls series where he hit the winning shot to take the Bulls out of a potential 3-1 situation.

Not a peep out of the usual suspects.

The whole "Chill Mode" moment. If that were Kobe? OKS would crash the servers.

Not a peep out of the usual suspects.

LeBron does a lot of the same bad shit that Kobe does, he just does it in such a lowkey manner, and he can hide behind being the best player on the planet often. He's still doing it.

Kobe fans are just asking you to keep up the same 'tensity when Bron does the shit.

In retrospect, I'm glad LeBron went to Miami and took those carpetbaggin' ass LeBronies with him. Having the opportunity to play with a good team (and a proven winner in Dwyane Wade) allowed him to keep away from the Vicks 44 and be himself. To learn a life outside of the ISO. Even if he won no titles, it was a good thing.

Fuck the Heat though, for life.

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

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brought up Shaq, cause I was thinking about this the other day.

if I were to rewind 5 years ago I remember the consensus being Jordan is the GOAT cause rings, BUT Shaq is the greatest player/most dominant, with Wilt following closely behind.

What is interesting is how the more Lebron keep succeeding (though losing in the Finals) the more people have steered away for being so heavy with the Shaq-olades because now it doesn't fit the anti-Lebron angle.

Kobe and Bron do share some annoying traits. To ME tho, the difference Kobe got born on third base landing with the Lakers, then got Shaq brought to him. They dominated, and yet then in an attempt to prove he could do it by himself, he ousted Shaq. To me that was unforgiveable. That is putting yourself over the team, but that's whateves. Making Shaq leave > Leaving Cleveland, to me.

Also, Lebron keeps getting Jordan comparisons, but honestly (and has been stated since Lebron got in the league) he's not Jordan. If anything he's Magic. Except he's Magic without the showtime supporting cast (for most of his career). Meanwhile he *could* catch Magic's 5 and have appeared in 9 Finals in the process. Aint NO shame in that.

I will say that Lebron has mastered his marketing, and money, and he will be one of the highest paid entities of all time. But I kind of wish he would go back to that early Lebron with the marketing and promotion. It's like once people said stop with the puppets and get with the rings, he's been trying to portray this all business mentality, and lost a part of his likability in the process.

However, ironically, only with 2 rings to his name, he may have been better served to have waited in Cleveland and seen what team was built around him there. But you're only going to get so much help when you're picking in the high 20s every year.

________________________________________________
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SUPA NERD LLC.
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#13irteen

>However, ironically, only with 2 rings to his name, he may
>have been better served to have waited in Cleveland and seen
>what team was built around him there. But you're only going to
>get so much help when you're picking in the high 20s every
>year.

Make no mistake: The Gund/Pax combo in the front office in LeBron's earliest years (the most critical ones) was AWFUL. Awful trades, awful drafts.

The only crime I could say of Gilbert/Ferry was to acquiesce too much to LeBron's supposed demands at the time instead of using basketball knowledge to get the best players available to him. Mo Williams was probably the best one they had, and as has been seen with #2KnicksUnited you still can't really lean on a player in that tier to be your next best player. Even if you are LeBron James.

But they never had the chance to get quality players in the draft, even before they became a playoff team, maybe because LeBron played too well. Luke fuckin' Jackson, dogg? I know they picked Iggy right before him, but damn.

The Cavs other pick in that draft, Carlito Caribbean Cool aka Anderson Varejao was way better than him. Hell, that draft, awful as it was, also had other people who have played for the Cavs (J.R. Smith, Delonte West, Sasha Vujay-jay, LOL...) Trevor Ariza, even was better. He's still in the league! LOL, 2 of the higher picks in the draft were on that GS team that just won the title.

If the Cavs had the kind of lottery "luck" they had post-LeBron, they could have had Dunce12 or Luol Deng or someone else -good- with him. That's why I don't believe the whole "lottery is rigged" BS. If it were truly rigged, LeBron could have had "help" early in his career. Or Kyrie could have actually had "help". "Winning" the Lottery the Anthony Bennett year was the opposite of luck. Anything to have gotten the Cavs out of the top 3, even past an Alex Len pick would have been more desirable.

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

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All we want is the same standard..

BTW, be patient.. your ring is coming in the next year or two barring injury. LeBron will end the drought.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

>BTW, be patient.. your ring is coming in the next year or two
>barring injury. LeBron will end the drought.

this is not anywhere near the 2007 loss (honestly, Cavs had no business being there), or the playoff losses the next 2-3 seasons.

the pressure is on, but the Cavs lost to an all-time great team, minus 2 of their impact players. that they avoided a sweep is an achievement. I was more worried they'd lose before the Finals.

instead, I found out that Tristan Thompson is actually a quality big in the NBA. So all that BULLSHIT about Jonas ValuTime or whoever else can finally die.

LeBron will have "help" and all the Cavs need to do is make patient, measured moves to retool.

Yes, I'm mad. Let's move on.

Jays | Cavs | Eagles | Sabres | Tarheels

PSN: Dr_Claw_77 | XBL: Dr Claw 077 | FB: drclaw077 | T: @drclaw77 | http://thepeoplesvault.wordpress.com

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

There are currently three dudes in the GOAT convo, Jordan, Wilt and Cap, and none of them balled out like this with a bunch of stiffs. None.

NEVER!

there's no coming back from 6 for 6

it was fun to debate this year

but that's what this finals was for Bron

that was THE accomplishment

it would've given him separation from Kobe and MJ

i.e., he did it by himself against the best team in the league

an L

ehh, you can spin it how you want

a few years out

and it just looks like an L

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

had and not just this year

The 2007 team was highly inferior and not a real NBA championship caliber team

In many ways he carried that Heat team as much as ppl wanna talk abt "the big 3"

Jordan's teams were pretty much always at full strength

Pippen was injured vs UTah in 98 but he only really missed a half in gm 6

This is why I say judge players based on their individual skill set as opposed to what their teams did or didn't accomplish as a basis to say who is a better player

>NEVER!
>
>there's no coming back from 6 for 6
>
>it was fun to debate this year
>
>but that's what this finals was for Bron
>
>that was THE accomplishment
>
>it would've given him separation from Kobe and MJ
>
>i.e., he did it by himself against the best team in the
>league
>
>an L
>
>ehh, you can spin it how you want
>
>a few years out
>
>and it just looks like an L

grassrootsphilosopher

if he loses in the 2nd round this year he's still in the convo because he only has 3 finals losses?

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

They were supposed to run thru the East. Anything less than that and its a disappointment.

This loss doesn't take away from his greatness. But the same thing happens in football with QB's, what your record is in the Finals is what separates the All-Time Greats, from just the greats. As is career stands right now, you can't say he's in the same space as Jordan, Russell, Cap, Kobe, Duncan, Magic etc. He's in there with Wilt and Jerry West. Still great players. But not at the top yet.

That can change. He's not done playing. Just hasn't done enough accomplishments wise to be there. Talent wise, he's there though.


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http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/17/lebron-james-becomes-first-player-to-lead-nba-finals-in-points-rebounds-and-assists/

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/image23.png

Sorry, Lebron is there and one title in Cleveland makes him the best ever. What more can Lebron do to win this team a title? HE LEAD THE NBA FINALS IN POINTS, REBOUNDS, AND ASSISTS.

But, but, but, his efficiency was poor! WHO IN THE FUCK ELSE WAS SUPPOSED TO GENERATE OFFENSE BY THEMSELVES? This finals performance adds to his greatness and will to win. He willed the Cavs to two victories against an all-time team despite injuries to three all-stars.

You can't name another player in NBA history who wins this series under the same circumstances with the same team.

resume

ya'll can't see it the day after the finals

cool

like I said

the further out we get from 2015

the more it just looks like an L

'Bron beat an injured CHI team and an injured ATL team to make it to the finals and lose to GS = GOAT' (c) no one EVAH

only a W would've done that

I'm not saying anything more than that

this series would have been his crowning achievement.

with this L, he is relegated to #2 at best.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

West, Baylor, Erving, these guys have losing records in the finals even.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Wilt is the GOAT because of all the Ls he has in the finals (c) no one EVAH!

c'mon

maybe they spin it to...so and so made X # of finals

but of those people you listed

who ARE IN THE GOAT conversation

when has a finals L been an achievement?

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

Honest question.

What I was pointing out was that all but ONE player in the GOAT conversation has lost in the Finals and multiple times. Jabbar (four losses), Magic (four losses), Jerry West (10 losses), Julius Erving (three losses), Shaq (two losses), Hakeem (a loss), Wilt (a loss and many in the ECF), Baylor (I wanna say eight losses), Bird, Moses, et fucking alli.

And yet these do not PREVENT them from being in the discussion.

Further, YES, some of them absolutely have losses that to their credit. Jordan, who never lost in the Finals, is often lauded for what he did earlier in his career against superior teams in the playoffs (e.g. Boston) or what he did to lesser opponents early on (Cleveland).

Elgin Baylor never won a championship and lost a ton of Finals, yet he is credited for what he did in his career and yes, for dominating the West.

Jerry West is in the same boat and furthermore absolutely gets credited for his incredible performance in the 1969 Finals, which his team lost in seven games to Boston.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

like how many players can claim 6 finals appearances as alphadog, (potentially 10+) by the time he retires.

Sure his track record there isnt great, buts letts not act like its some easy feat

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And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

He's great. As talented as anyone who has ever done it. He's not as accomplished as some of those other guys though. So you can't say he's the best ever. Maybe most talented ever...but not best ever.


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you look at other guys with that many trips we are talking tons of celtics and lakers from the best periods in those franchises' history, plus jordan and the very short list of guys with 6+ finals appearances even.

is he the best ever? no. could he be? he has as good of a chance as anyone to enter the league since jordan, but no, he is definitely not yet.

any time you start an argument "well, he's not the greatest ever ..." it's probably not a worthwhile argument.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

you can't say that like its a given.

Its certainly possible.

But you can't use it in an argument like its safe to assume lol

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All the dudes we talking about led teams and put up crazy stats. Rings is the difference. Horry wasn't even an All-Star


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and an attempt to reduce the game to an individual sport...

There are a lot of factors that have to be considered for a player on a team that wins *multiple* championships

Magic was truly a transcendsnt great player because he just was...the titles adds to his overall greatness but hell, he had arguably the greatest center of all time and a top 10 or 12 SF in Worthy (Silk Wilkes before him) and one of the all-time greatest perimeter defenders on his team in Cooper...not to mention viable role players like Norm Nixon, Byron Scott, AC and others

w/a team w/that much talent you're certain to win a few rings

Can we judge or punish Lebron because he has never played w/an all-time great player at the peak of their prime? It always seems like in the end he's going at it alone in the finals

>All the dudes we talking about led teams and put up crazy
>stats. Rings is the difference. Horry wasn't even an
>All-Star
>
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

grassrootsphilosopher

I can't call you the best when people have accomplished more than you even though you are more talented.

His career is not over, but right now he is not the best.

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Lebron is the most talented Basketball player ever. But, to this point in his career, he hasn't accomplished what guys like Magic, Jordan, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant have. All those guys have guady stats, MVP's, All-NBA Selections, All Star Game Selections and led their team to at least 5 rings. Lebron has done the other stuff, but only has 2 rings right now.

2 and 4 in the Finals doesn't take away from him being great though. We just can't call him an All-Time Great like those others. Lebron is an all-time talent, but not yet an All-Time Great. Wilt Chamberlain was 2-4 in the Finals and Jerry West was like 1-8. Dr J was 1-3 Those guys are still greats, but no one argues that they are the best ever because they aren't as accomplished as the guys I mentioned in the first paragraph.

Right today, Lebron is with those other guys (West, Dr J and Wilt). His career isn't over yet though. I believe he will win one for all my folks back home in Ohio soon and possibly 2 or 3 more. Again, he's the most talented player I've ever seen. He's just not the best at this point.

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Wade is among the best ever at his position.

That's not taking away from LeBron.... That's just a fact.

on the court, I hate that dude.
fuck the Heat, and compared to Kobe, I am definitely not a fan of his cheating ass.

but he's a great player, one of the best of his draft class and of the decade following his entry into the NBA.

just because he gambled on his knee health and he isn't what he once was doesn't make him some kind of NBA lifetime bum

also, it's because of Wade(, Bosh, and Ray Allen ... all all-time greats) that LeBron even HAS rings to speak of

even if in the end, he was the dominant force on the Heat, he would not have won shit w/o those dudes. the idea that he never got to the finals/won the finals without other great players is some bullshit

any team he's on that's full strength *has* to win.

has.

no wiggle room. this was a fantastic accomplishment, and the closest thing to a pass he's ever gonna get from here out.

if they come back with bron, kyrie, love, thompson, andy, mozgov and the jackson 5 rounding out their roster, they should win.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

.

<----

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chances going forward if they went this far w/a damn near D-League team

I think if they stay healthy they can run off at least 2-3

I just don't want ppl trying to discredit Bron when Kyrie gets finals MVP next season

grassrootsphilosopher

There shouldn't be any shame in getting there and losing. Magic was 5-4. Kareem was 6-4. Dr J was 1-3. I can't say I elevate losses in earlier rounds above reaching the goddamn FINALS.

In this series Bron did the Atlas thing for a while but no one could have kept it up and even at his best they weren't winning every game. They were shorthanded and got beat by a better team, he played well. I would say this is somewhat similar to 07, although because of age and other factors I still consider that run a little more impressive

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

nothing he did hurt his legacy.

barring something really major, next year there is only one goal for him. he will play in multiple finals in the rest of his career but he can't lose em forever. to this point there is only one loss that i think should be held against him (and even there, give Dallas some credit). But he can't just cruise past a weak East and call it a day anymore.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

It won't take away from his greatness or take him out of the top 5 or 6. Sure it might make him more in the wilt area of best players ever, but shit ppl act like that's bad company to be in

<--- Big Baller World Order

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♚♚♚♚

this isn't derisive (I prefer Peyton to The Cheater).
GOAT credentials except in championship games.

the Cavs will have their 2006 Colts moment.

Peyton is going into the HOF with a ton of records and a ring. So they can't say he never won shit. He just elevates the fuck outta whatever team he's on.

i think their unreal leadership qualities almost prevent them from having that kobe / brady-like megalomania that comes in handy when its time to cut the heart of the opponent.

♚♚♚♚

#BYLUG >>> https://goo.gl/1ooFp6

♚♚♚♚

screamin' mothafuck a 12 /
bitches ain't shit /
cops ain't neither /
they huntin' my people /

- i. rashad

♚♚♚♚

.

♚♚♚♚

#BYLUG >>> https://goo.gl/1ooFp6

♚♚♚♚

screamin' mothafuck a 12 /
bitches ain't shit /
cops ain't neither /
they huntin' my people /

- i. rashad

♚♚♚♚

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Yet he hasn't accomplished what the other guys have. That's the difference.

Wilt Chamberlain did the same thing. Crazy Stats. Physically superior. Not as accomplished.


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>Yet he hasn't accomplished what the other guys have. That's
>the difference.
>
>Wilt Chamberlain did the same thing. Crazy Stats. Physically
>superior. Not as accomplished.
>
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

grassrootsphilosopher

yet his overall career to date has blemishes. Nothing wrong with that assessment IMO.

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

him than anyone else has had


>yet his overall career to date has blemishes. Nothing wrong
>with that assessment IMO.


But to say just because he has more talent that he's supposed to win titles isn't respecting the fact that this is still a team game

Jordan was by far and away the most talented player in the league and it took him 7 yrs to get over the proverbial hump...because he didn't have a team around him...and once Pippen came into his PRIME is when the Bulls took off

grassrootsphilosopher

>him than anyone else has had
>
>
>>yet his overall career to date has blemishes. Nothing wrong
>>with that assessment IMO.
>
>
>But to say just because he has more talent that he's supposed
>to win titles isn't respecting the fact that this is still a
>team game
>
>Jordan was by far and away the most talented player in the
>league and it took him 7 yrs to get over the proverbial
>hump...because he didn't a team around him...and once Pippen
>came into his PRIME is when the Bulls took off

The minute comparisons to Jordan, Magic, and other all time greats are made, it's not intellectually honest to ignore championships when they are brought into the discussion. Doesn't make sense to anoint LeBron as an all time great when the standards aren't fully held to their highest level, which should involve championships since that is the ultimate goal for great players.

In my opinion, all the GOAT and Rushmore talks should start once LeBron's career is over so everything can be viewed in totality rather than the what have you done for me lately view LeBron is getting at the moment. But that's coming from someone that isn't fully invested in this agenda message board talk.

>The minute comparisons to Jordan, Magic, and other all time
>greats are made, it's not intellectually honest to ignore
>championships when they are brought into the discussion.
>Doesn't make sense to anoint LeBron as an all time great when
>the standards aren't fully held to their highest level, which
>should involve championships since that is the ultimate goal
>for great players.

It's not that I'm ignoring championships but I don't think most NBA fans that grew up watching basketball especially during the Jordan era realize just how new this rings argument is as to who's the greatest player of all-time is according to how many championships his team won...because that hasn't always been the case

There are PLENTY of ppl who believe Big O is the GOAT despite him only having only 1 championship on a team where he wasn't the best player (Dr.J said he would start him and Jerry West in his backcourt)

People were calling Kareem the GOAT during the 70s which was long before he had 6 rings because no player had his combimantion of skills and talent and he was dominating the league like no one had seen since Wilt's playing days...

Wilt? Some still think he's the GOAT w/just 2 rings

On the flip side, the man who has *11* f'ing rings is seldom in the discussion of the GOAT ('he's the greatest winner")


>In my opinion, all the GOAT and Rushmore talks should start
>once LeBron's career is over so everything can be viewed in
>totality rather than the what have you done for me lately view
>LeBron is getting at the moment. But that's coming from
>someone that isn't fully invested in this agenda message board
>talk.

grassrootsphilosopher

That's part of why he is the GOAT. He was so good AND accomplished that he made you re-think how you evaluated greatness.

Look, College football used to let the coaches and media vote on who the National Champ was. Then we had the BCS. Now we have a tournament. Things evolve.

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>That's part of why he is the GOAT. He was so good AND
>accomplished that he made you re-think how you evaluated
>greatness.
>
>Look, College football used to let the coaches and media vote
>on who the National Champ was. Then we had the BCS. Now we
>have a tournament. Things evolve.
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

grassrootsphilosopher

Rings alone isn't a fair way to have the discussion. But when you use it in the context of separating guys who are the top 20 or so guys ever, it makes a lot of sense as winning is the whole point of the game.

I'd love to read or hear Jordan' perspective on that, especially if he think's rings aren't a good way to evaluate. Please link it up if you can find it.

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

the fact Russell almost doubles him in rings?

Better yet, you think if Jordan had to choose between Russell and Hakeem he would take Russell over Hakeem who only has 2 rings? (Rhetorical question)...because Jordan said he would take Hakeem over ANY center that ever played because he's basing his decision on skills and ability and not on overall career, team accomplishments





>Rings alone isn't a fair way to have the discussion. But when
>you use it in the context of separating guys who are the top
>20 or so guys ever, it makes a lot of sense as winning is the
>whole point of the game.
>
>I'd love to read or hear Jordan' perspective on that,
>especially if he think's rings aren't a good way to evaluate.
>Please link it up if you can find it.
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

grassrootsphilosopher

So yeah that sounds nice, but how can he say I'd take a guy I never saw play?

He was a teenager when Cap was in his prime in the 70's. So did he really see him in his prime either, especially given how infrequently the NBA was on TV in the 70's.

Plus, are we really trusting Jordan as a talent evaluator? This is the same guy who took Kwame Brown as the #1 Pick.

I'm not saying Russell is the best ever simply because he has more rings though. He is in the discussion based on his stats, leadership and rings though. He dominated his era. He routinely beat the other guys who were the best of the best in that era while putting up crazy numbers and being the Alpha Dog on his team.

Can't quite say that for Lebron. He has the stats. His leadership is vastly improved. But he hasn't consistently beat the best of the best on the biggest stage. That could change. He's not done. But right now, he hasn't done it.


Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

>So yeah that sounds nice, but how can he say I'd take a guy I
>never saw play?

You think MJ doesn't know of Russell's greatness? Better yet, how abt Kareem or Shaq or Moses? He definitely saw and played against the latter two...and he said he'd take Hakeem over any center that ever played because of his unique skill set

>
>He was a teenager when Cap was in his prime in the 70's. So
>did he really see him in his prime either, especially given
>how infrequently the NBA was on TV in the 70's.

Dude, Jordan older than me and I'm well aware of Kareem's greatness - I'm sure Jordan is very well versed in the history and legends of the game. C'mon...I seriously doubt that's why he said he'd take Hakeem over any other center
>
>Plus, are we really trusting Jordan as a talent evaluator?
>This is the same guy who took Kwame Brown as the #1 Pick.

He has his opinion like anyone else


>I'm not saying Russell is the best ever simply because he has
>more rings though. He is in the discussion based on his
>stats, leadership and rings though. He dominated his era. He
>routinely beat the other guys who were the best of the best in
>that era while putting up crazy numbers and being the Alpha
>Dog on his team.

WTF? Lebron's stats are already better than 90% of the all-time greats - he has more MVPs than Magic/Bird/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan and has been on the 1st team All-defense several times...won 2 gold medals...2x champ...2x finals MVP...on pace to finish in the top 3 scorers and assists of all time (no one has ever done that)...all-time leader in assists for SFs...he resume is stellar...

He's lost 2x to an all-time great team and arguably the GOAT PF and a top 3 HC in Popovich...he lost this year w/an undermanned team to the best team in the league that featured the MVP...he also beat Duncan and he beat the 2nd best player in the league in the finals in a rare head-to-head battle 4-1...

He's the 1st player that I have seen that has had to go at it alone in the finals more than once...
>
>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon
>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

grassrootsphilosopher

and I'm not even a Bron FAN, much less Stan

>>So yeah that sounds nice, but how can he say I'd take a guy
>I
>>never saw play?
>
>You think MJ doesn't know of Russell's greatness? Better yet,
>how abt Kareem or Shaq or Moses? He definitely saw and played
>against the latter two...and he said he'd take Hakeem over any
>center that ever played because of his unique skill set
>

But he still didn't see him play. You and I are also aware of his greatness, but neither of us saw him play. Therefore how could I say I take him. Same with Wilt. Again...Mike was in his 20's in the 80's. Cap was past his prime at that point. Hakeem, Moses and Shaq are always bunched together. So yeah that's his opinion.

>>
>>He was a teenager when Cap was in his prime in the 70's. So
>>did he really see him in his prime either, especially given
>>how infrequently the NBA was on TV in the 70's.
>
>Dude, Jordan older than me and I'm well aware of Kareem's
>greatness - I'm sure Jordan is very well versed in the history
>and legends of the game. C'mon...I seriously doubt that's why
>he said he'd take Hakeem over any other center
>>

Being aware of someone's greatness is different than seeing them play and being able to say that person is definitively better than someone else. I never saw Big O play, so while I am aware of his greatness, I can't make a legit argument that he is better than Jordan, Kobe or Magic because it would just be based on stats and not his actual talent.


>>Plus, are we really trusting Jordan as a talent evaluator?
>>This is the same guy who took Kwame Brown as the #1 Pick.
>
>He has his opinion like anyone else
>
>
>>I'm not saying Russell is the best ever simply because he
>has
>>more rings though. He is in the discussion based on his
>>stats, leadership and rings though. He dominated his era.
>He
>>routinely beat the other guys who were the best of the best
>in
>>that era while putting up crazy numbers and being the Alpha
>>Dog on his team.
>
>WTF? Lebron's stats are already better than 90% of the
>all-time greats - he has more MVPs than
>Magic/Bird/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan and has been on the 1st team
>All-defense several times...won 2 gold medals...2x champ...2x
>finals MVP...on pace to finish in the top 3 scorers and
>assists of all time (no one has ever done that)...all-time
>leader in assists for SFs...he resume is stellar...

We can split hairs with this. Jordan has more MVPs. Kobe has more All-Defenses. Magic has more Assists. Shaq has more points. Duncan has more rebounds. But all of them have more rings than him. When Lebron is done, that may be a different story. But right today it is what it is.
>
>He's lost 2x to an all-time great team and arguably the GOAT
>PF and a top 3 HC in Popovich...he lost this year w/an
>undermanned team to the best team in the league that featured
>the MVP...he also beat Duncan and he beat the 2nd best player
>in the league in the finals in a rare head-to-head battle
>4-1...
>

Yeah he beat Duncan when he was well past his prime. A 36 year old Duncan. And then got beat by the worse margin ever the next year by an even older Duncan. And Durant is even less accomplished than Lebron.

Look Magic, Bird, hell Isaiah, Russell and them went thru HOF. And at what point in their careers they did it. Lebron is going thru a weak east every year to get to the Finals. He hasn't beat an All-Time Great in his prime yet. Durant is a stretch, Jordan kept dudes like Barkley, Ewing, Malone and Stockton from being greats. He beat then in years where they were the League MVP. Magic beat Bird and the Celts, and Dr. J and the Sixers and Isiah and the Bad Boy Pistons in the Finals. Kobe and Shaq went thru prime Duncan three times just to get to the finals. Kobe went thru Prime Duncan again with Gasol and also beat The KG, Pierce, Allen Celts in the Finals. And I haven't even mentioned the Portland and Sacramento or Minnesota teams he beat.

I'm not trying to take away from Lebron. He's great. I'm not a hater. But he's not in the same space at the greatest of the greats yet.

>He's the 1st player that I have seen that has had to go at it
>alone in the finals more than once...
>>

And that's commendable. He played a hell of series and kept it way closer than I thought he would. At the end of the day, he didn't win though. And 5 years from now, that's what everyone will remember. No one talks about the year Jerry West got the Finals MVP after a hard fought 7 game losing series to the Celtics. It didn't come up until this week. What people remembers is that he was 1-8 in the Finals. That's how we measure the greats bro. Doesn't mean they aren't great. Just means Lebron isn't an All-Time Great yet.

>>Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo,
>Christon
>>Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop:
>>http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio
>


Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

Lebron is Wilt. Same Finals Record. Physically better and more gifted than everyone else. Just hasn't won as many titles as his contemporaries.

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio

The Cleveland Finals appearances are the only ones he should have lost. He had inferior talent to the other team. The Miami one's he should have won all 4.

Books have been written on this, so I'm not about to do that hear. And yes, I may be over simplyfing it for the sake of this being a message board.

But the bottom line is guys like Dr. J, Wilt, Jerry West, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone aren't in the best player ever conversations because they don't have as many rings as Magic, Mike, Duncan, Russell, Kobe and Bird.

They are just as talented in many cases as those guys. But not as accomplished.

Download my new mixtape featuring Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Christon Gray and more. Positive Hip Hop: http://www.noisetrade.com/wadeoradio