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Bombastic
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Mon Jan-28-13 07:56 PM

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"Zach Lowe's Second Chance On OKP: Life Without Rondo (swipe)"


  

          

Many OKS subplots heading into today's piece on the heels of the mostly lampooned 'Nash Doctrine' column from a couple days back.

Will dula's hoop-head darling drop a dagger after his previous All-Star Game airball?

Will Mr. Lowe make it to a third column read by O_E who refuses to grant more than one mulligan per sportswriter?

Will TheRealBillyOcean lose his mind reading some of the efficiency rating numbers about this C's squad with Rondo at the wheel?

Read Dat Lowe below then weep or woop back, brethren.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8890026/with-rajon-rondo-season-boston-celtics-do-now

Life Without Rondo

The Celtics' superstar point guard is gone for the season — now what should they do?
By Zach Lowe on January 28, 2013PRINT

Doc Rivers was defiant after Boston's stirring double-overtime win over the Heat on Sunday, but it's hard to see the Celtics doing anything significant in the playoffs — if they get there — without their only reliable shot creator in Rajon Rondo. The Celtics, in that case, should begin gauging trade interest in Paul Pierce. But it'll be tough for them to find either a blue-chip prospect or a building-block first-round pick for a 35-year-old wing player who is approaching a career-worst 41.9 percent from the field while depending more than ever on passes off screens for his shot attempts. And Danny Ainge wants to give the current roster at least a bit of time before he shifts into Big Trade Mode.

Still, in a way, you can understand Rivers's defiance. Boston has been a terrible offensive team all season, and now ranks 26th in points per possession; how much worse could it really get without Rondo, the Celtics point guard lost for the season with a torn ACL? Though the offense has floundered, the Celtics have found themselves defensively over the last two dozen games. In January, only the Pacers have been stingier in points allowed per possession, according to NBA.com. Boston has ridden that same formula — barely watchable offense, terrifying defense — to longer-than-expected playoff runs before. Perhaps they could do it again, especially since two of their best heavy-usage five-man lineups — nos. 3 and 6 on the minutes list — don't include Rondo.

Parsing blame for Boston's chronically bad offense is tricky. Here are Boston's rankings in points per possession for the last four seasons, including this one: 14th, 18th, 24th, and 26th. There are really only three places to look for fault, and it's impossible to separate any one from the other two.

Elite point guards rarely helm bottom-10 offenses for consecutive seasons, let alone average or worse offenses for nearly a half-decade. But it has happened. Jason Kidd's teams, even in his prime, were usually 15th or worse in points per possession. Chris Paul went through some dry years in New Orleans. Numbers at the team level for Tim Hardaway, Deron Williams, Mark Jackson, and Andre Miller — the latter an interesting comparison to Rondo, given his pass-first genius and lack of a jump shot — have been all over the place depending on health, coaching, and roster context.

Kidd is especially relevant. In his prime, particularly in New Jersey, his teams typically scored at a high level when he played and a miserable level when he sat, per 82games.com. The same had been true of Rondo until this season. Even as Boston's offense has sunk since Kevin Garnett's leg issues in 2009, it scored at top-10 or even top-five levels when Rondo, Garnett, and Paul Pierce were on the court together, per NBA.com.

That changed this season. Boston's offense — 26th to begin with, remember — has been a hair less efficient with Rondo on the court, and it has damn near cratered when Boston's alleged All-Star trio has played together. The Celtics have scored 99.6 points per 100 possessions overall, but just 97.5 with those three on the court. That group starts games and thus faces stiffer competition than some of the non-Rondo backup units, but they've blitzed stiff competition for five years.

Everyone knows Rondo's issues. His jumper is improved but still shaky, and teams ignore him in order to clog Boston's already so-so spacing. Yes, Rondo has hit a career-best 48 percent on long 2-point jumpers this season, a number roughly comparable to those of elite mid-range shooters like Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Paul. But the numbers mask an obvious difference between those guys and Rondo: The jump shots of Nowitzki and Paul are weapons defenses attempt to take away by throwing extra attention at them, and weapons those shooters are comfortable using in high volume. Rondo's jump shot is a wide-open, last-resort look defenses are happy to provide if it means containing other action. Nowitzki might shoot 75 percent on equivalent looks at the hoop.

The shaky jumper means Rondo is of little use off the ball. This is one reason Boston has been unable to properly incorporate Jason Terry, shooting less often than ever and putting up the sort of usage rate we'd expect from a limited offensive player like LARRY SANDERS! Terry's shot selection has changed dramatically this season. Last season, about 26 percent of possessions Terry finished came via pick-and-rolls, with just 7.7 percent coming on Terry attempting a catch-and-shoot after taking an off-ball screen, according to Synergy Sports. Those numbers have flip-flopped this season — 11.7 percent for pick-and-rolls, and 19.9 percent off screens. Going into the Miami game, Terry had attempted 39 shots out of the pick-and-roll, and only nine of them had come with Rondo on the court — even though the two started just about half the season together.

This isn't all on Rondo, as we'll get to later. But Rondo's game is a factor in what has happened to Terry in Boston. Ray Allen, ironically, was probably a better fit for Rondo's skill set. He's three inches taller than Terry with a quicker release, and those things make him more comfortable on the hyper-speed catch-and-shoot attempts that Rondo and Boston's system can create. Terry has been an elite spot-up shooter, but a lot of those looks in Dallas were of the stand-still type Terry could get as defenses bent toward Nowitzki down low.

Back to Rondo: He barely gets to the line and shoots poorly when he gets there. He occasionally looks for passes at the expense of easier shots, most recently when he opted against an uncontested fast-break layup in favor of a ridiculous failed lob pass in a game against New York that the Celtics ultimately lost by three.

Still: Executives around the league view Rondo as a max player or something close to it. He is perhaps the NBA's best passer, with a savant's understanding of how to create space and shooting opportunities for others via an extra dribble or a tiny change of direction. The rumors about his sour personality are true — there are hundreds of whispered "Rondo's a brat" stories floating around the league — but his talent and smarts are overwhelming. Which brings us to the other two reasons league observers pinpoint for Boston's offensive decline: roster construction and coaching.

The puzzling thing about Boston's scoring issues is that the Celtics have always been among the league's best shooting teams, from both 2-point and 3-point range. They just do everything else poorly. They have gotten to the line at average or worse rates. They are legendarily bad at offensive rebounding, mostly because Rivers — coaching alert! — prefers everyone get back on defense. They have been the league's worst turnover team over the last half-decade. And their shot-selection profile has been miserable. Only two teams attempt fewer 3s, and only four attempt more mid-range jump shots. That is a recipe for failure, unless a team supplements those shots with something else — foul shots, fast-break points, etc. Boston does not.

This is where coaching and roster makeup intertwine. Talk to players and coaches about game-planning for Boston, and after the usual polite praise, they'll often mention how Boston lacks a big man who really enjoys setting screens and diving hard to the basket on the pick-and-roll, in the style of Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, and any number of lesser big men — Andre Drummond, Omer Asik, Robin Lopez, David West (a great screen-slipper), the old Amar'e Stoudemire, Amir Johnson, Glen Davis, and others.

Brandon Bass and Kevin Garnett are mid-range shooters. Garnett will occasionally take a hard dive to the basket, but he prefers to hold his picks for an extra beat or two, making sure he smushes the point guard chasing Rondo. And he obviously prefers to pop for mid-range jumpers rather than roll to the hoop.

The mere presence of a big man cutting hard to the rim opens up looks all over the floor. Think about all those open 3s Houston, New York, or Indiana get simply because weakside defenders, following common NBA defensive principles, have to crash into the lane to at least bump that rolling big man. Those wing players also get driving opportunities out of that action, as their defenders rush back to close out on them. This stuff is just not a frequent feature of Boston's offense, and that hurts.

Is that on Rivers or the front office? Or both? It's hard to say, since Rivers has sway in personnel decisions — including the trade of Davis for Bass. But there is growing chatter around the league that Rivers, while a very good coach, might need a top offensive coordinator to spice up Boston's stale offense. Rivers is a genius in bonding with players, getting them to buy in on defense, and drawing up plays out of timeouts, but Boston's general offensive look hasn't changed much as the league around the Celtics has evolved. (A team spokesman understandably declined to make Rivers available for an interview over the weekend.)

That offense was good enough to get them a win from the Finals last season, but it's hard to see this team doing anything without Rondo. The numbers might not say so this season, but the sample size is small, and the bigger picture suggests this team badly needs Rondo's shot creation. Boston's offensive floor and average level are both low, but Rondo raises the ceiling to potential playoff wins simply behind his creativity and pumped-up scoring. Starting with that classic 2009 first-round series against Chicago, Rondo has proven he can step up his aggression and keep Boston in games they would otherwise lose — against New York, Philadelphia, Miami, and other playoff opponents. Without that scoring variance Rondo can provide, this aging roster is done as a serious threat.

All that said, the Celtics are still a decent bet to make the playoffs, if only because no one has a clue when Andrew Bynum will return. The Sixers can improve their odds by making up ground in their next seven games, all at home against some solid competition. Detroit and Toronto loom as possible threats, but both have played easy schedules, and though Detroit has recovered after a rough start and found a useful bench unit, neither projects as a team that is going to play well over .500 the rest of the way.

But sneaking into the postseason for a whitewashing at the hands of the Heat is not a worthy goal — not if Boston can get something useful in exchange for Garnett and Pierce. Dealing Garnett will be tough, since he has a no-trade clause and $18 million in guaranteed salary spread over the 2013-14 and 2014-15 seasons. Trading Pierce would be easier, since only $4 million of his $15.3 million salary next season is guaranteed. Seeing Pierce in a different uniform would be tough for Boston fans, but the team peddled him at the deadline last season. Danny Ainge is sentimental, but not enough to prevent a beneficial deal.

Which brings us to the last point: What deals for Pierce might be realistic, given that Boston under new cap rules can add only about $2.4 million in salary? Ainge's first target will be either a blue-chip guy on a rookie contract or a good first-round pick. He's not getting both, and getting just one will likely require Boston taking something unpalatable back — and/or sending out one of the Avery Bradley–Jared Sullinger pair. Some places to look for that kind of deal:

Utah Jazz

The goal here would be either Derrick Favors or Enes Kanter, and the price would be taking on Marvin Williams as salary-matching fodder. Utah is only about $3 million under the luxury tax, so they would likely push to include Raja Bell — and would not be able to accept a midsize Boston long-term deal (Bass, Terry, Courtney Lee) without constructing a larger trade. No one can really figure out Utah's plans right now, but with both Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap set to hit free agency, Utah may prefer to keep its core young pieces. They could use Pierce's scoring punch on the wing, and Pierce's contract wouldn't affect their potential cap-space bonanza this summer if they bought him out.

Golden State

This would be more interesting if Andrew Bogut were healthy and the Warriors had a better idea of just how good they were. Boston would seek one of the Harrison Barnes–Klay Thompson blue-chip duo, with Barnes probably more expendable at this point — especially since he and Pierce play the same position. Boston would have to take on Richard Jefferson's deal (which expires after next season) plus another minimum-salaried player, since both teams face the $74.3 million hard cap. (It applies to Golden State because they used the non-taxpayer mid-level exception on Carl Landry.) But you can bet Boston will kick the tires.

Los Angeles Clippers

The prize would be Eric Bledsoe, talented enough that Boston might be interested even given the presence of Rondo, Avery Bradley, and a bundle of other guards. A package of Caron Butler, Bledsoe, and Chauncey Billups works in theory, but it takes the Clippers over the luxury tax. Los Angeles is less than $500,000 below the tax threshold, so the salaries here would have to match almost exactly — a tricky problem that might require a third team, and that's a place at which deals fall apart. Getting out of Caron Butler's $8 million salary for next season would be nice, especially with a massive Chris Paul contract coming, and the Clips realize that re-signing Paul would make a Bledsoe trade almost inevitable before Bledsoe is due his own big raise. But this is a difficult match.

Milwaukee Bucks

A package of Beno Udrih, Samuel Dalembert, and John Henson or SANDERS! is an almost exact salary match and makes some sense for both teams. Udrih and Dalembert are on expiring contracts, and Milwaukee's pile of big men and ball handlers makes it hard for either to get big minutes. They also have the same agent. That same roster could use a two-way small forward, and the Bucks are all-in for a playoff berth this season. Pierce's $4 million buyout price over the summer could eat into their cap space, but it only represents a $1 million or $2 million add-on above the salaries for Henson/SANDERS! Those aren't sexy names, but both are lottery-level talents that project well. Dealing two bigs would leave Milwaukee thin up front, but Boston could toss in Jason Collins or Chris Wilcox for some depth. The risk of losing a long-armed young big might be too much for Milwaukee, especially with Ekpe Udoh's offense stagnating.

Washington Wizards

The Wiz aren't parting with Bradley Beal, even if the Celtics kindly assume Trevor Ariza and all of his missed 2-point jump shots, and they aren't likely to part with their own lottery pick, either. This might have been interesting had Washington started healthy and had a real shot at the playoffs, but that's an alternate reality.

There might be a few other deals that fall under this category, but they are tough to find, especially with DeMarcus Cousins not available. The second deal type would require taking on a flawed and/or unhappy veteran with promise, especially if Boston can unload an unfavorable contract in the process.

Toronto Raptors

I'm burying the lead a bit, but this might be the most realistic and intriguing trade partner for Boston. Two deals jump out:

1. Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon for Pierce and Bass

Boston can barely squeeze this deal under the hard cap. The lure for Toronto is dumping Bargnani's salary, getting someone who would immediately step in as their best wing player, and finding a cheaper jump-shooting big in whom they've expressed some past interest.

Boston gets a point guard who can hold the fort for the rest of the season, and a big man who might fit with Rondo. Remember that bit about how Boston lacks a Tyson Chandler–style hard roller among its bigs? It also lacks a power forward who can stretch the floor out to the 3-point line — a type of player who could blend nicely with Rondo's inside-out skills. One reason Terry has attempted so few shots via the pick-and-roll this season is that he doesn't have Nowitzki as a partner; opponents fear Nowitzki's jumper so deeply, they have their big men stay attached to him on pick-and-rolls, opening a lane for Dallas guards.

Boston fans who cringe at Bargnani's no-defense, no-rebounding game — and his $11.1 million average annual salary through 2014-15 — have to understand this: There isn't much of a market for the Bass-Terry-Lee collection of long-term midsize contracts, and a team in Toronto's situation has no urgent need for an aging veteran wing to block DeMar DeRozan and Terrence Ross. Bargnani's contract cramps the books, but the impact could be neutral if Bass goes out the door and Garnett retires before the 2014-15 season.

Another potential deal:

2. Kyle Lowry, Bargnani, and cap filler (likely Aaron Gray, who is tall) for Pierce and Bass

The same general reasons apply here, though the Raptors might be reluctant to deal Lowry with Calderon's contract expiring. There is a divide between the front office and the coaching staff on the Lowry/Calderon issue, but the front office prefers Lowry, and the front office signs off on trades.

Again: Boston is free to pitch a straight deal of Bass (or Lee, or Terry) along with a first-round pick for Lowry, but Toronto has little reason to do this, unless Boston's pick looks like a certain lottery pick by February 21. And even then, it would likely be toward the end of the lottery. Toronto has two bigs playing well in Ed Davis and Amir Johnson, and young wings who need time.

Memphis Grizzlies

The Rudy Gay–Pierce swap is everyone's favorite deal of the week, and it makes a ton of sense for Memphis. They get the better player, a skill they need (long-range shooting), and a contract that brings massive long-term tax relief.

The appeal for Boston is harder to find. Gay will earn $17.9 million next season and has an option for a ghastly $19.3 million in 2014-15. He's shooting 40 percent overall and 30 percent from 3-point range. He has not evolved much as a passer or defender. His Player Efficiency Rating is below the league's average. He's tight with Rondo and could work as a fast-break partner for his buddy, but I'm not sure why Boston would be anxious to make this deal — especially since Memphis isn't including a first-round pick after flipping one to Cleveland last week.

The Atlanta Hawks–Phoenix Suns–Houston Rockets Vortex of Doom

Phoenix has about $6 million in cap room, a cranky center on a good contract (Marcin Gortat), a virus of a player experiencing his once-a-month hot streak (Michael Beasley), and a ton of first-round picks. The Hawks have a lot of potential cap room, but not enough to sign Dwight Howard to a max deal unless they move some salary (and cap holds) linked to Josh Smith, Al Horford, or Jeff Teague. Smith's agent is meeting again this week with Hawks GM Danny Ferry, per ESPN's Chris Broussard, after expressing his unease with the situation in Atlanta 10 days ago. Houston has about as much cap room as Phoenix, plus a hole at power forward.

You can build a bunch of three- and four-team deals that have all of these players flying around to various destinations to accomplish some or all of the following: get Boston an All-Star–level big man; allow Phoenix to dump Beasley; improve Atlanta's short-term cap situation while netting a useful player such as Gortat; ship Smith to Houston.

Alas, obstacles abound. Phoenix is reluctant to do any deal in which they ship out more draft picks than they get. Houston has the cap room to sign Smith outright this summer. Atlanta can stand pat and move in July. Smith's impending free agency means Boston would likely start any Atlanta-centric discussion with Al Horford, but Horford is one of the 20 best players in the league on a Rondo-style deal that underpays him — at $12 million per year — through 2015-16. Atlanta may want some extra cap room this summer, but they don't want it that badly.

Boston as of now is not guaranteed major cap space until after the 2014-15 season, so they should be open to anything that can draw in a useful future asset, cut some long-term money, and net a draft pick. They could in theory keep the core together for one more year and try to find the perfect bit of veteran help, but they're not on course to have the full mid-level exception this summer. And it's just too difficult to see this group, even intact and healthy, topping out as anything more than a nice mid-rung playoff team. Boston delayed its rebuilding by a year or two with its moves last summer, but they had tried before then to start that course with workable deals. They should try again now.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
for those who missed it the first go-round:
Jan 28th 2013
1
*Pours milk into bowl of Honey Bunches of Oats*
Jan 28th 2013
2
Honey Bunches Of Oats is the truth, we are right in line there
Jan 28th 2013
4
I'm not reading all this shit. Care to summarize?
Jan 28th 2013
3
Nah I aint doin ur work for ya (truthfully I ain't even read it all yet)
Jan 28th 2013
5
lol @ Trevor Ariza and all of his missed 2-point jump shots
Jan 28th 2013
6
HELP!!! Less than halfway done, can barely stand to finish!!! HELP!!!
Jan 28th 2013
7
that C's series being close is because Bosh wasn't there
Jan 28th 2013
9
      Doesn't change the facts or validate his dumbass argument
Jan 28th 2013
10
           haven't read the full argument yet, just clarifying that part
Jan 29th 2013
11
this is possibly the worst-case scenario for the Celtics
Jan 28th 2013
8
He drones on with zero point or conclusion.
Jan 29th 2013
12
yeah, having finally read the whole thing, I pretty much agree
Jan 29th 2013
13
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jan 29th 2013
14
Heres an older but better enjoyable Lowe article
Jan 29th 2013
15
I don't see it.
Jan 29th 2013
16
      I dont think you can find me better
Jan 29th 2013
17
           Two things:
Jan 29th 2013
18
           RE: I dont think you can find me better
Jan 29th 2013
19
           i'd be game.
Jan 29th 2013
20
           Love the OKS podcast idea, keep me posted & I'll get in where I fit in
Jan 29th 2013
22
           If you need a "5 Minutes with a Completely Un-Biased NBA Fan" segment...
Jan 29th 2013
25
           3 minutes and you got a deal!
Jan 29th 2013
27
           I love the idea of an OKS blog/podcast combo
Jan 29th 2013
28
*flag on play* this fool just compared Bubbles to Rondo, nuh uh!
Jan 29th 2013
21
he lost me on trade speculation, why would those teams *want* PP?
Jan 29th 2013
23
to make bill simmons happy?
Jan 29th 2013
24
yeah, I thought I missed something there too. Did he actually say Klay?
Jan 29th 2013
26
welp, article mighta been weak but damn if they ain't 5-0 without Rondo
Feb 06th 2013
29
So good that he decided to write another article
Feb 06th 2013
30
      lol, I haven't checked an article since the one in this OG post
Feb 06th 2013
31
           Its all moot if he's a bad writer.
Feb 06th 2013
32
           His only claim is that it's too early to make a claim
Feb 07th 2013
33

Bombastic
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88874 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 07:57 PM

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1. "for those who missed it the first go-round:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2120027&mesg_id=2120027&listing_type=search

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 08:22 PM

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2. "*Pours milk into bowl of Honey Bunches of Oats*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


HBO is FOCUS FOOD

Perhaps the greatest FOCUS FOOD ever

Oh I WEEEL Focus on this

This is his LAST CHANCE

(Wait -- is this Guinness? If it is I'll give him more
than two chances...but only because I have affection
for Guinness...he's like my terrible posting weirdo
cousin, the product of my momma's awesome sister and a
cornball dude with paper)



----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Bombastic
Charter member
88874 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 08:31 PM

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4. "Honey Bunches Of Oats is the truth, we are right in line there"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

but nah, this dude ain't G.

Now that the cat came out the big handsome bag, I can generally tell when it's him even before getting to the byline at the end.

For instance in last week's NBA Shootaround, it wasn't hard to tell who was writing here (and whether you agree with his stance on the issue or not, he's a quality writer.....reminds me of Matt Taibbi if he wrote about the NBA & rap music extensively)

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/48645/nba-shootaround-i-like-my-meatballs-spicy

Fire the Lakers

Despite a session of confrontation therapy and yet another proclaimed reboot, the Lakers' death spiral into historical ignobility continued last night, with a 106-93 gut-punching administered by the Grizzlies in Memphis. The man taking much of the blame is coach Mike D'Antoni, a magician whose ability to attract revulsion in America's two major markets makes him an amalgam of Frank McCourt, Mel Gibson, cannibal cop, and a mustachioed Casey Anthony. Whatever the comparison, those coastal media elites hate him.

With a 12-20 record since arriving in Los Angeles, D'Antoni has been excoriated for crimes like turning Pau Gasol into a mushy bench pumpkin, not giving Dwight Howard enough touches, failing to rein in Kobe Bryant, refusing to bend his offensive philosophy to the team's personnel, and generally "losing the team." And he surely hasn't been great. But blaming the coach is a lazy game, and the Lakers' problems are more physical than philosophical.

In truth, with four starters whose average age is 34 and a Dhalsim-thin bench, the Lakers were never built for regular-season success. A slew of injuries — not only to stars, but also to role players Steve Blake and Jordan Hill — along with D'Antoni's on-the-fly tinkering and placement in a rugged Western Conference, have exposed those vulnerabilities in ghastly fashion. Gasol, widely seen as the victim of his coach's maniacal adherence to a spread-floor system, simply hasn't been as good as Earl Clark, the youngster who replaced him as a starter (lost in the glory of Pau's brilliance in the Olympics is that his performance on the offensive end plummeted last season). And useful contributors like Matt Barnes and Ramon Sessions, both of whom were on last year's team, aren't walking through that door.

Whether under D'Antoni or deposed defensive guru Mike Brown, the Lakers' issues have been remarkably consistent: poor perimeter defense, an inability to create turnovers, and a propensity for coughing up the ball themselves. By Basketball-Reference's stat-based Expected Win/Loss metric, the Lakers should be 13th this season. Last year? 13th, too.

What now? Kobe has been outstanding this season, but relishes this role as a foul-mouthed real-talking elder and an alienating arbiter of justice who oscillates between accepting all responsibility and calling out his teammates. He's earned this position. But can the Lakers endure two more seasons of it? When the risk of losing Howard to free agency is combined with the $58 million Kobe is owed through 2014, the unthinkable use of the amnesty clause might be the only ejection seat on this flaming aircraft. But in the meantime, start a FIRE D'ANTONI chant if it makes you feel better.

  

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TheRealBillyOcean
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Mon Jan-28-13 08:31 PM

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3. "I'm not reading all this shit. Care to summarize?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

My beliefs with Rondo, the Celtics are like babies waiting to get fed. Without, they're more pro active about making their own dinner.

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

  

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Bombastic
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88874 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 08:36 PM

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5. "Nah I aint doin ur work for ya (truthfully I ain't even read it all yet)"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Started during a trip to the hopper but I'll save the rest for later.

For the purposes of this thread, I needed at least three people invested in the dramatic arc of this piece's success and/or failure.

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
35243 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 08:51 PM

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6. "lol @ Trevor Ariza and all of his missed 2-point jump shots"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 10:08 PM

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7. "HELP!!! Less than halfway done, can barely stand to finish!!! HELP!!!"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jan-28-13 10:16 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          


Please tell me he ethers himself + backs off the entire
point he's making by emphasizing late in the article
that his regular season analysis of the statistics are
asinine, as Boston came within one of the 10 best playoff
performances (Lebron, Game 6, 2012) ever from coming out of
the Eastern Conference in 2012.

Said differently, despite all these regular season
statistical gymnastics and doomsday analyses, a healthy
Boston Celtics team has lost one playoff series since 2008
(again, to the Heat last year, and almost entirely because of
the Bath Salts Bron performance).

If he doesn't completely retreat from this argument,
I'm never reading anything by this guy again. Sorry.


EDIT: Unless he's Guinness. In which case I apologize
for my negativity and support his awful posting ass,
no homo



----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Bombastic
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88874 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 10:41 PM

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9. "that C's series being close is because Bosh wasn't there"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

if we counting that as a feather, then you could also more truthfully say it took them a seventh-game to sneak past the Sixers while fully healthy before getting to play a Heat team with basically no interior presence.

Also, they lost in five to Boston the year before too.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 10:53 PM

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10. "Doesn't change the facts or validate his dumbass argument"
In response to Reply # 9
Mon Jan-28-13 10:55 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          

>if we counting that as a feather, then you could also more
>truthfully say it took them a seventh-game to sneak past the
>Sixers while fully healthy before getting to play a Heat team
>with basically no interior presence.
>
>Also, they lost in five to Boston the year before too.

I actually had it wrong-

The 2012 Celtics didn't have Jeff Green

The 2011 Celtics lost fair and square, though

So the Celtics, since 2007, have lost one playoff
series when healthy. Its not a huge plea cop or qualifier.
Its true.

In terms of talent, that 2012 team didn't deserve to
be on the same floor as Miami, even without Bosh. The
reason the Sixers gave them trouble is because the Celtics
were pitiful and old and were overachieving.

Read Bill Simmons' comments on the 2011-2012 Celtics
team: it was his favorite since the Bird teams
specifically because they turned it on when they had
to, overachieved, played hard as hell

To cite regular season statistics to make a doomsday
analysis of the Celtics is wrong and disingenuous.

They've been nothing but a spectacular success, even
recently. Without Jeff Green, they had the world champs
on their heels...then Bath Salts happened.

One of the *better* coaching jobs ever, actually. Doc
pulled them together and had them playing their souls
out.

----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Bombastic
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Tue Jan-29-13 12:45 AM

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11. "haven't read the full argument yet, just clarifying that part"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>>if we counting that as a feather, then you could also more
>>truthfully say it took them a seventh-game to sneak past the
>>Sixers while fully healthy before getting to play a Heat
>team
>>with basically no interior presence.
>>
>>Also, they lost in five to Boston the year before too.
>
>I actually had it wrong-
>
>The 2012 Celtics didn't have Jeff Green
>
bwahahaaaa, okay now I know you're playing.

>The 2011 Celtics lost fair and square, though
>
>So the Celtics, since 2007, have lost one playoff
>series when healthy. Its not a huge plea cop or qualifier.

kinda is.

>Its true.
>
>In terms of talent, that 2012 team didn't deserve to
>be on the same floor as Miami, even without Bosh. The
>reason the Sixers gave them trouble is because the Celtics
>were pitiful and old and were overachieving.
>
>Read Bill Simmons' comments on the 2011-2012 Celtics
>team: it was his favorite since the Bird teams
>specifically because they turned it on when they had
>to, overachieved, played hard as hell
>
Good for Bill Simmons, they still barely beat a young & mediocre Sixer squad and only went deep with Miami because they were without their only post player who eats 1/4 of their salary.

>To cite regular season statistics to make a doomsday
>analysis of the Celtics is wrong and disingenuous.
>
Doomsday?

These dudes are an old under-.500 team who just lost their best player who won't be there now to start next season.

They might have to start thinking about a future plan, they wouldn't be breaking up a title team.

2008 was a long time ago.

>They've been nothing but a spectacular success, even
>recently. Without Jeff Green, they had the world champs
>on their heels...then Bath Salts happened.
>
Dawg, you gotta stop talking about Jeff Green like he's of any consequence or ever has been since the Perk trade?

He's there this year & sucks horribly.

Did you mean Avery Bradley?

>One of the *better* coaching jobs ever, actually. Doc
>pulled them together and had them playing their souls
>out.
>
Doc did a fantastic job last year, I agree. Doc's one of the best coaches in the league without a doubt.

  

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forgivenphoenix
Member since Dec 08th 2007
2514 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 10:31 PM

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8. "this is possibly the worst-case scenario for the Celtics"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

not only does Rivers and Ainge not get a chance to see if the team is able to grow into becoming a spoiler come playoff time, but now they can't include Rondo (their most valued asset) in a trade to start the rebuilding process completely because his value is significantly diminished since being injured.

plus, if they don't make the playoffs this year, the draft lacks depth to give the Celtics anyone of consequence at their place in the lottery.

i think they ought to ask Garnett to retire or amnesty him and trade Rondo for the best possible deal available. if Rondo acted unprofessionally on a title contending team, I can't imagine him being a leader on a rebuilding team.

fans will still come out to see Pierce and he can be the creaky veteran to help guide the team back to the road of respectability for the next couple of years before he retires himself.

__________________________________________

http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 01:24 AM

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12. "He drones on with zero point or conclusion."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jan-29-13 01:30 AM by SoulHonky

          

So: the Celtics might be better offensively without Rondo. Or they could be worse. But Rondo could be the problem on offense. Or it could be Doc Rivers. Or Danny Ainge. Who knows. Zach Lowe sure as hell doesn't.

He then brings up possible trades, most of which he then points out aren't really possible. I think he just wanted to make that Trevor Ariza joke because there was no other reason to mention the Wizards.

Finally he settles on Andrea Bargnani. He thinks this is a real option and seems to fight for it. This is after he cited offensive rebounding as a trouble spot; something Bargnani doesn't do. He also cites that the C's shoot too many three and long twos; basically all that Bargnani does (shoot, that is. He's not even making them this year.) Apparently, he likes this deal because he sees that Rondo can't shoot (even though he's shooting a decent percentage on long 2's this year) and Bargnani can (even those he's shooting sub-40% this year) and thinks "What a match!" And while I like Calderon, he and Bargnani would do more to hurt the Celtics defense than they would help their offense. Then again, Bargnani would probably never play because he's pretty much everything that Doc and KG despise.

Oh, and then Lowe poo-poos the Rudy Gay deal because Rudy is overpaid and "He's shooting 40 percent overall and 30 percent from 3-point range. He has not evolved much as a passer or defender." Um, Zach, you do realize that you just described Andrea Bargnani, right?

So far, it seems like Grantland is a horrible fit for Lowe. He needs a place that will rein him in and keep him focused, not a place that encourages longer pieces. For instance, if this article was about: Not So Fast! Blowing up the Celtics is No Easy Task, then bringing up trades that probably won't happen would make sense. Instead, he argues that the Celtics will be hard pressed to get a good deal... and then concludes that the Celtics should try to make a trade anyway.

Just a bad article on all fronts. This would have gotten mocked had it been on Bleacher Report.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Bombastic
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Tue Jan-29-13 03:13 AM

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13. "yeah, having finally read the whole thing, I pretty much agree"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

the trade suggestion bits were particularly bad.

  

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rl9
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Tue Jan-29-13 03:17 AM

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14. "^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>So: the Celtics might be better offensively without Rondo. Or
>they could be worse. But Rondo could be the problem on
>offense. Or it could be Doc Rivers. Or Danny Ainge. Who knows.
>Zach Lowe sure as hell doesn't.
>
>He then brings up possible trades, most of which he then
>points out aren't really possible. I think he just wanted to
>make that Trevor Ariza joke because there was no other reason
>to mention the Wizards.
>
>Finally he settles on Andrea Bargnani. He thinks this is a
>real option and seems to fight for it. This is after he cited
>offensive rebounding as a trouble spot; something Bargnani
>doesn't do. He also cites that the C's shoot too many three
>and long twos; basically all that Bargnani does (shoot, that
>is. He's not even making them this year.) Apparently, he likes
>this deal because he sees that Rondo can't shoot (even though
>he's shooting a decent percentage on long 2's this year) and
>Bargnani can (even those he's shooting sub-40% this year) and
>thinks "What a match!" And while I like Calderon, he and
>Bargnani would do more to hurt the Celtics defense than they
>would help their offense. Then again, Bargnani would probably
>never play because he's pretty much everything that Doc and KG
>despise.
>
>Oh, and then Lowe poo-poos the Rudy Gay deal because Rudy is
>overpaid and "He's shooting 40 percent overall and 30 percent
>from 3-point range. He has not evolved much as a passer or
>defender." Um, Zach, you do realize that you just described
>Andrea Bargnani, right?
>
>So far, it seems like Grantland is a horrible fit for Lowe. He
>needs a place that will rein him in and keep him focused, not
>a place that encourages longer pieces. For instance, if this
>article was about: Not So Fast! Blowing up the Celtics is No
>Easy Task, then bringing up trades that probably won't happen
>would make sense. Instead, he argues that the Celtics will be
>hard pressed to get a good deal... and then concludes that the
>Celtics should try to make a trade anyway.
>
>Just a bad article on all fronts. This would have gotten
>mocked had it been on Bleacher Report.
>

''i went from bashful to asshole to international''- CdoubleO

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43352 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 09:44 AM

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15. "Heres an older but better enjoyable Lowe article"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

He is still my favorite NBA writer right now but I agree he does have a tendency to waffle on Grantland.

The Rajon Rondo article read like a "how can I kiss my boss' ass" piece. Sean Grande, the pbp guy for the C's was joking on the podcast about how Bill just calls him when theres a tragedy in Celtics land.

What I appreciate about him most is that he actually watches games.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8598109/why-teams-just-five-percent-chance-competing-nba-championship-go-it

In this old article he does the typical Grantland Theory or new idea followed by his 10 things I like/Dont like--which is a semi regular feature in his articles. In these features he generally breaks down some NBA play(s) and you can see he actually knows the game--even if you dont agree.


he's had some other pieces which I dont care to look for right now that go even more in depth in breaking down a play/offense/or defense.

That was more of the norm at SI, but Grantland calls for him to be more humorous, which isnt always his forte.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 09:47 AM

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16. "I don't see it. "
In response to Reply # 15


  

          


I think you guys have a painfully low bar for
good writing.



----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43352 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 10:52 AM

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17. "I dont think you can find me better"
In response to Reply # 16
Tue Jan-29-13 10:53 AM by ShawndmeSlanted

  

          

I never said he was the worlds greatest writer

But for writers covering the NBA right now, this is the best there is. Which might be setting the bar incredibly low but still.
------
BTW this never came to realization and it needs its own post. I was back and forth with Longo a bit about this right before Christmas--but we need an OK Sports Podcast.

We got enough guys that we can rotate in and have different weekly segments throughout ALL sports seasons. The knowledge base would be great. I know basa has his podcast, but this could potentially be bigger and better and lead to a OKS network of podcasts, vlogs, blogs, articles.

I mean basically for every sport or team we have "semi experts" we could call on.

Its an exciting idea to me considering the breadth and depth and humor of this board, it'd take some work which id be interested in spearheading--if there were enough real interest.

I mean the topics write themselves. On a typical day we can just look at popular topics on the boards and spin from there.



>
>I think you guys have a painfully low bar for
>good writing.
>
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it
>you? http://MatchShannon.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 11:30 AM

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18. "Two things:"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          



a) If he's the best basketball writer, than I'm fine
not reading basketball writing. That is an option, you
know. Reading OKS posts and listening to Fiyastarta
is good enough for me. And to be fair, the Grantland
podcasts tend to be good (don't listen that often,
though)

b) To your OKS podcast idea: Great, but like most podcast
ideas, the challenge is in managing it. Who is going to
manage, ensure people regularly participate, write, etc.

I can write until the cows come home. I'm less of a radio
guy. Willing to help just off GP, especially if you're
involved since you're an awesome dude

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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rl9
Charter member
4494 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 11:57 AM

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19. "RE: I dont think you can find me better"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

>I never said he was the worlds greatest writer
>
>But for writers covering the NBA right now, this is the best
>there is. Which might be setting the bar incredibly low but
>still.


I enjoy David Aldridge's columns. Might not be the biggest pen virtuoso but I dig his work overall.
Simmons can be annoying but you can't deny that he does his thing.

haven't read the piece you linked up yet.

''i went from bashful to asshole to international''- CdoubleO

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
26423 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 12:29 PM

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20. "i'd be game."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

also, zach lowe's article on rondo sucks.

none of those trades helps boston and all it would do is piss off a fan base that's now willing to reload. sell off some mid-level guys for cap space and/or draft picks and move on--but the squad is too far away from championship quality without Rondo to bother trading away icons to reload. Bargnani or whoever else could get got for Pierce or KG won't lead to the championship anymore than keeping them, so fuck it, ride with the guys who gave us a recent chip and figure it out from there.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

  

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Bombastic
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88874 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 12:45 PM

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22. "Love the OKS podcast idea, keep me posted & I'll get in where I fit in"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

  

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TheRealBillyOcean
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38224 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 01:31 PM

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25. "If you need a "5 Minutes with a Completely Un-Biased NBA Fan" segment..."
In response to Reply # 17
Tue Jan-29-13 01:33 PM by TheRealBillyOcean

          

holla

That'd give me 1 minute on Rondo, 1 on Wall, 1 on Boogie, 1 on A.D., 20 secs on MKG, 20 secs on BK, 20 free secs on a rotation of players.

<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43352 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 01:44 PM

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27. "3 minutes and you got a deal!"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

But yea...silly shit like this would also be great to mix in.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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Kajun
Member since Jan 11th 2008
1007 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 01:53 PM

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28. "I love the idea of an OKS blog/podcast combo"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

This site has always had a really diverse set of opinions and most importantly, personalities to debate sports topics. There are a number of posters who seem well suited for podcasts, and a number of others who clearly like writing. And lets face it, this site is full of narcissistic motherfuckers who love nothing more than to hear themselves talk or read their own tripe (raises hand).

Its why I have been coming here, mostly as a lurker for a number of years now. The level of humor, diversity and sometimes maybe even actual honest to god insight is still something I do not find on other sites and boards.

I would love to contribute to something like this, if for no other reason than to have yet another playground to waste time at in lieu of work or otherwise productive life activity. I know I'm not alone.


OKP is basically already a better version of Grantland...so why not make it official?

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
25307 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 12:41 PM

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21. "*flag on play* this fool just compared Bubbles to Rondo, nuh uh!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Numbers at the team level for Tim Hardaway, Deron Williams, Mark
>Jackson, and Andre Miller — the latter an interesting comparison to
>Rondo, given his pass-first genius and lack of a jump shot

if this is where the media is gonna go with the Rondo narrative then I don't know what I'm gonna do. but just for starters, you know Rondo actually JUMPS on his jump shot, right? so yeah, poor comparison. if Lowe wants to talk about efficiency from the perimeter, okay -- but we talking about JUMP shots?

Rondo has a JUMP shot, Bubbles not so much...

___________

HOPE!
https://vine.co/v/i7JjIBL3Qix
https://vine.co/v/i7JtqEFwxDu

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
25307 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 12:51 PM

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23. "he lost me on trade speculation, why would those teams *want* PP?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

did he put that somewhere and I missed it? "Paul Pierce" being a more recognizable name than "Harrison Barnes" still doesn't tell me why the fuck Golden State would trade Harrison Barnes for a 35-yo overpaid one-way player on one of the worst offenses in the league?

___________

HOPE!
https://vine.co/v/i7JjIBL3Qix
https://vine.co/v/i7JtqEFwxDu

  

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thejerseytornado
Member since Dec 24th 2005
26423 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 01:17 PM

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24. "to make bill simmons happy?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

it'd give them a player with a ring on a team without any actual playoff experience and they overrate "experience" thinking that the addition of Bogut and the upgrade from Barnes to Pierce would make them a contender?


-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

  

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Bombastic
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Tue Jan-29-13 01:37 PM

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26. "yeah, I thought I missed something there too. Did he actually say Klay?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>did he put that somewhere and I missed it? "Paul Pierce"
>being a more recognizable name than "Harrison Barnes" still
>doesn't tell me why the fuck Golden State would trade Harrison
>Barnes for a 35-yo overpaid one-way player on one of the worst
>offenses in the league?

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Feb-06-13 11:02 PM

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29. "welp, article mighta been weak but damn if they ain't 5-0 without Rondo"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Wed Feb-06-13 11:05 PM

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30. "So good that he decided to write another article"
In response to Reply # 29


          

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/50099/are-the-celtics-really-this-good-without-rajon-rondo

With a final summation of, once again, Who Knows?

"The early signs are good, but the smart money is on Boston looking very much like the so-so, defense-only team it has been for much of this season — a relatively safe bet to make the playoffs that can compete with anyone on a given night, but lacks the firepower to beat a really good team four times in seven tries. What that says about Rondo’s value is the real question."

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Bombastic
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Wed Feb-06-13 11:10 PM

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31. "lol, I haven't checked an article since the one in this OG post"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

I don't know whether to be happy or sad he hasn't taken this opportunity to spin towards the claim he really wanted to make.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Wed Feb-06-13 11:36 PM

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32. "Its all moot if he's a bad writer. "
In response to Reply # 31


  

          


which either means he can't write,
he can't think clearly, or neither.

He might have been right, but nobody knows or cares
because we don't remember his dumbass article.
----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Thu Feb-07-13 12:25 AM

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33. "His only claim is that it's too early to make a claim"
In response to Reply # 31


          

There are some nice breakdowns and if he was doing a weekly Celtics column, it would make sense but I thought this was a national writer covering the NBA. The Celtics are the obvious story but a story that is FAR too early to do statistical analysis on, which, in the end, is his point.

Four games (three against terrible teams) don't mean anything.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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