I went from not caring even a little to caring somewhat to caring quite a bit in the span of this morning as an item on facebook from St. Mary's Basilica popped up about a proposed site on Linden Avenue. I used to go to church there and my memories are fond enough that no place since has really compared favorably to it, not the place I got married or the bleary-eyed Tridentine low rite place I came to favor late in my time in Chicago.

It would be disappointing if they chose this site to build, as most of the Basilica's talking points (diminished church accessibility for a vibrant parish, likely loss of the Block Party, architectural dangers for a historic landmark, etc.) seem pretty fair criticisms from my perspective.

But I haven't lived there in (big sigh) a decade now, and I don't keep up to date with Vikings stuff unless I've got a trip scheduled there and will actually be required to talk about football. I realize I'm tremendously late, but hopefully somebody could catch me up fast since I'm now in the unfamiliar and unpleasant position of having an opinion.

I should probably add that one subject I don't care about is geographically unspecific arguments about sports stadiums, stadium financing, corporate welfare, the guys-with-monocles-and-butlers-ocracy. Feel free to go all Dave Zirin if you like, and just imagine a guy with glasses and a Twins hat rolling his eyes when you don't get a response.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

The Vikings have been pushing for this site in Arden Hills which currently houses an abandoned Army munitions plant. They really like this because since it's basically in the middle of nowhere, Zygi Wilf (Vikings owner/real estate magnate) can not only build a stadium, he can develop the area nearby into restaurants, retail space, etc. They tried to do this same thing somewhere in Blaine (where the Wilfs would have basically had their own small town of office space, housing and retail centered around a stadium) in like 04-05, but that fell apart.

The problem with this is there will need to be a lot of money spent on environmental cleanup and roadwork. The state does not want to pay for this, and Ramsey County (who said they were going to foot the bill for this) hasn't been able to come up with their funding. Before this was even announced last spring, Dayton said the state wasn't going to pay for redoing the roads out there to accommodate increased traffic.

For these reasons, a lot of people in the capitol (and in Minneapolis) would rather the Vikings try to build in Minneapolis. The three sites suggested are the Metrodome site (which the Vikes don't want, as they would have to play in TCF Bank Stadium on the U campus for 2-3 years and can't really develop the surrounding area,) the farmer's market near Target Field (which would be cool but has spacial concerns and they would share the parking garages with Target Field) and the site near the Basilica. This last one has the team interested, because the area is mostly empty and able to be developed, plus it's near three different highways.

The Vikings still publicly say they want Arden Hills first and foremost, but its looking less and less likely unless they somehow come up with their share of the money. Minneapolis has been gaining a lot of steam lately, and the Basilica site seems to be the one the Vikings like best. The church itself isn't wild about this, but basically said that if they got some money to offset their concerns over parking, they'd be willing to go along with it.

Also, Shakoppee is apparently trying to get in on this, but that literally came up today and who knows if this is even real.

January 24 is the deadline for both Ramsey County and Minneapolis to present their proposals before the legislature and governor.



And you're not tremendously late, the Vikings have only recently mentioned the possibility of Minneapolis for a new stadium. Last year was all about Arden Hills.

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http://www.startribune.com/politics/statelocal/137067558.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

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>The Vikings have been pushing for this site in Arden Hills
>which currently houses an abandoned Army munitions plant. They
>really like this because since it's basically in the middle of
>nowhere, Zygi Wilf (Vikings owner/real estate magnate) can not
>only build a stadium, he can develop the area nearby into
>restaurants, retail space, etc. They tried to do this same
>thing somewhere in Blaine (where the Wilfs would have
>basically had their own small town of office space, housing
>and retail centered around a stadium) in like 04-05, but that
>fell apart.

Okay, I remember all the Arden Hills talk. A friend of a friend has parents who live out there, and I heard about it when it was first proposed. I didn't realize the secondary reasons why this would be so appealing to Wilf. My opinion of him has been bred out of deliberate ignorance, but even though it spans from "he's a doofus" to "there's something sinister there" I don't really care about that area or Ramsey County's finances so I sort of hope he finds a way to get his way if that site is the preference.

>The problem with this is there will need to be a lot of money
>spent on environmental cleanup and roadwork. The state does
>not want to pay for this, and Ramsey County (who said they
>were going to foot the bill for this) hasn't been able to come
>up with their funding. Before this was even announced last
>spring, Dayton said the state wasn't going to pay for redoing
>the roads out there to accommodate increased traffic.

Right. Infrastructure. We need that, don't we?

>For these reasons, a lot of people in the capitol (and in
>Minneapolis) would rather the Vikings try to build in
>Minneapolis. The three sites suggested are the Metrodome site
>(which the Vikes don't want, as they would have to play in TCF
>Bank Stadium on the U campus for 2-3 years and can't really
>develop the surrounding area,) the farmer's market near Target
>Field (which would be cool but has spacial concerns and they
>would share the parking garages with Target Field) and the
>site near the Basilica. This last one has the team interested,
>because the area is mostly empty and able to be developed,
>plus it's near three different highways.

Is the Metrodome only doomed if something new is built on the site? Or is it gone way or another? I've never quite understood the argument that you can't develop in the surrounding area, but it's repeated often enough by people who pay attention that I assume it's true. Is it because that area is so thoroughly fenced in by interstates?

Additionally, the "we can't develop around there" seems like a weirdly founded complaint. Isn't the idea that there will be development helpful to the entire community is something that sounds true-ish that's largely concocted by owners trying to justify stadium handouts? So if the city can give them a stadium there without the team having to pretend that the area will be some new great place for families to spend time in April, then what's the problem?

>Minneapolis has been gaining a lot of steam lately, and the Basilica >site seems to be the one the Vikings like best. The church itself
>isn't wild about this, but basically said that if they got
>some money to offset their concerns over parking, they'd be
>willing to go along with it.

Ugh. I get what they're doing. This isn't a fight the Basilica wants to lose without a consolation prize, but I have a hard time imagining the parish keeping its size and shape when the area is flooded eight Sunday mornings a week - into Advent no less. On the other hand, my wife's church is really close to the Titans' stadium and they seem to do fine regarding it as a seasonal inconvenience.

>Also, Shakoppee is apparently trying to get in on this, but
>that literally came up today and who knows if this is even
>real.

Didn't they do that with the Twins' park too? Oh Shakopee. Day late and also kind of lame.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

>>The Vikings have been pushing for this site in Arden Hills
>>which currently houses an abandoned Army munitions plant.
>They
>>really like this because since it's basically in the middle
>of
>>nowhere, Zygi Wilf (Vikings owner/real estate magnate) can
>not
>>only build a stadium, he can develop the area nearby into
>>restaurants, retail space, etc. They tried to do this same
>>thing somewhere in Blaine (where the Wilfs would have
>>basically had their own small town of office space, housing
>>and retail centered around a stadium) in like 04-05, but
>that
>>fell apart.
>
>Okay, I remember all the Arden Hills talk. A friend of a
>friend has parents who live out there, and I heard about it
>when it was first proposed. I didn't realize the secondary
>reasons why this would be so appealing to Wilf. My opinion of
>him has been bred out of deliberate ignorance, but even though
>it spans from "he's a doofus" to "there's something sinister
>there" I don't really care about that area or Ramsey County's
>finances so I sort of hope he finds a way to get his way if
>that site is the preference.

It looked like it was probably going to happen, but Ramsey County would have been pulling a lot of weight financially.

>>The problem with this is there will need to be a lot of
>money
>>spent on environmental cleanup and roadwork. The state does
>>not want to pay for this, and Ramsey County (who said they
>>were going to foot the bill for this) hasn't been able to
>come
>>up with their funding. Before this was even announced last
>>spring, Dayton said the state wasn't going to pay for
>redoing
>>the roads out there to accommodate increased traffic.
>
>Right. Infrastructure. We need that, don't we?



>>For these reasons, a lot of people in the capitol (and in
>>Minneapolis) would rather the Vikings try to build in
>>Minneapolis. The three sites suggested are the Metrodome
>site
>>(which the Vikes don't want, as they would have to play in
>TCF
>>Bank Stadium on the U campus for 2-3 years and can't really
>>develop the surrounding area,) the farmer's market near
>Target
>>Field (which would be cool but has spacial concerns and they
>>would share the parking garages with Target Field) and the
>>site near the Basilica. This last one has the team
>interested,
>>because the area is mostly empty and able to be developed,
>>plus it's near three different highways.
>
>Is the Metrodome only doomed if something new is built on the
>site? Or is it gone way or another? I've never quite
>understood the argument that you can't develop in the
>surrounding area, but it's repeated often enough by people who
>pay attention that I assume it's true. Is it because that
>area is so thoroughly fenced in by interstates?
>
>Additionally, the "we can't develop around there" seems like a
>weirdly founded complaint. Isn't the idea that there will be
>development helpful to the entire community is something that
>sounds true-ish that's largely concocted by owners trying to
>justify stadium handouts? So if the city can give them a
>stadium there without the team having to pretend that the area
>will be some new great place for families to spend time in
>April, then what's the problem?

I don't know what happens to the Dome if the Vikings get a new stadium on a different site. Once they move in, I imagine they take the high school football championships with it. People still use the dome during the week to go running in the concourses for $1. The stadium has more than paid for itself at this point.

And they're not (publicly) complaining about not being able to develop the Dome area as much as they are talking about the money they'd have to spend putting heating coils at TCF, expanding parking in that area and the loss in revenue (TCF only seats 50,000.) But that's definitely a reason they don't like the Dome site.

>>Minneapolis has been gaining a lot of steam lately, and the
>Basilica >site seems to be the one the Vikings like best. The
>church itself
>>isn't wild about this, but basically said that if they got
>>some money to offset their concerns over parking, they'd be
>>willing to go along with it.
>
>Ugh. I get what they're doing. This isn't a fight the
>Basilica wants to lose without a consolation prize, but I have
>a hard time imagining the parish keeping its size and shape
>when the area is flooded eight Sunday mornings a week - into
>Advent no less. On the other hand, my wife's church is really
>close to the Titans' stadium and they seem to do fine
>regarding it as a seasonal inconvenience.

Well, everyone seems to think they could still keep the basilica structure intact, although it's old enough that I wouldn't be shocked if it took some major damage with heavy construction in the area.

How old is your wife's church? Was it built after the stadium?

>>Also, Shakoppee is apparently trying to get in on this, but
>>that literally came up today and who knows if this is even
>>real.
>
>Didn't they do that with the Twins' park too? Oh Shakopee.
>Day late and also kind of lame.

It's on their city seal.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

>I don't know what happens to the Dome if the Vikings get a new
>stadium on a different site. Once they move in, I imagine they
>take the high school football championships with it. People
>still use the dome during the week to go running in the
>concourses for $1. The stadium has more than paid for itself
>at this point.

Which is why I loved it so dearly - a public stadium for the public. I when a broke college student who hadn't paid attention to baseball in awhile was told by friends that he could catch a major league game for six dollars. That student... was ... me.

>And they're not (publicly) complaining about not being able to
>develop the Dome area as much as they are talking about the
>money they'd have to spend putting heating coils at TCF,
>expanding parking in that area and the loss in revenue (TCF
>only seats 50,000.) But that's definitely a reason they don't
>like the Dome site.

I see. Thanks.

>Well, everyone seems to think they could still keep the
>basilica structure intact, although it's old enough that I
>wouldn't be shocked if it took some major damage with heavy
>construction in the area.

I'm willing to defer to architects on this issue. My concern is with the parish, which large, growing, and full of young Catholic families. That's not common in the US right now.

>How old is your wife's church? Was it built after the
>stadium?

Weirdly enough, they're almost identical ages as my wife's church was almost fully destroyed by a tornado in 1998 and rebuilt. The analogy doesn't hold when it comes to possible architectural effects of stadium construction, since it's still about three blocks away from LP Field.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

i don't have a lot to offer. arden hills is the vikings choice, minneapolis is Mayor Rybak's & apparently Governor Dayton's choice. they lean towards the metrodome site, but that would entail loss of revenue for the vikes since they would have to play in TCF stadium (with less capacity than the dome) for 3 years. so that's when the basilica spot cropped up again, and as marauder said, now shakopee.

i still have no clue why zygi pulled out of the blaine development project he had years ago. anoka county was ready to commit tax dollars, but zygi still had his heart in minneapolis and was hoping for a sweeter deal, which never came.

and while i like target field, the fact that they bypassed a constitutionally required public referendum to fund it was BS, and it appears to be what they are trying to do for the vikings as well.

------
"I can't promise I'll try. But I'll try to try."

>and while i like target field, the fact that they bypassed a
>constitutionally required public referendum to fund it was BS,
>and it appears to be what they are trying to do for the
>vikings as well.

I'll break my rule for a more general comment about the phenomenon of stadium/anti-stadium articles to explain why I'm perfectly happy to hear you complain about it. Even if publicly financed stadiums can be universally understood as terrible ideas, they remain *local* terrible ideas. I don't want to hear somebody in the mid-atlantic area angry at George Steinbrenner or Dan Snyder or whoever wave his hands and fart at Twins fans for enjoying their awesome new park. But subsidiarity demands that I should listen to Minnesotans (including Twins fans) who want to complain about the eminent domain process by which the Target Field land was seized or skipping the referendum or the additional parking problems in that part of downtown or whatever.

You've got my full support, even when I'm not supporting you.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

but a main problem of treating it as a local problem is that it isn't completely local. there's a domino effect ("they got a new stadium! I want a new stadium! Clearly, someone will pay!"), that warrants criticism from all, as long as that criticism is consistently leveled at all boondoggles...err...stadiums.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/01/15/1450881/minnesota-vikings-stadium-financing/

New Minnesota Vikings Stadium A Boondoggle Before It’s Even Built

By Travis Waldron on Jan 15, 2013 at 2:05 pm

Last spring, Gov. Mark Dayton (D-MN) and the Minnesota state legislature exploited a legal loophole to approve $348 million in public financing to help build a new stadium for the state’s National Football League franchise, the Minnesota Vikings. The majority of the state’s financing of the stadium would come from revenues gained from new electronic gambling machines placed in bars and restaurants — an idea that seemed fool-proof to Dayton and legislators since Minnesota ranks among the biggest states in charitable gaming.
Less than a year later, revenues from the electronic pull-tab machines are falling far short of projections, and even before ground has been broken on the new stadium, it already looks like a bad deal for Minnesota taxpayers. New financial projections say the revenue from gambling has come in below both monthly and daily targets, and the amount of cash on hand has been cut in half, Minnesota Public Radio reports:
Revenues since pull-tabs started on Sept. 18 have fallen far short of the $100 million monthly target experts initially set for the games. Last month, disappointing revenues prompted state finance officials to cut the expected stadium cash they’d have on hand by half.
The most current data from the Minnesota Gambling Control Board show Minnesotans only played a total of $4.1 million worth of the games through the end of 2012.
The existing machines each are grossing $180 a day — again short of the projected $225 daily take — grossing less per day than the experts’ projection made when the stadium financing plan was being worked on last spring.
State officials now project the pull tabs will generate just $47 million in revenue, barely more than half original estimates. Pull tab revenues for 2012 were down 51 percent compared to projections. Minnesota officials and stadium advocates argue that the shortfall is a result of too-slow approval for the new machines. As of December, 75 bars and restaurants had been approved to host the machines, short of the 300 that would have been idea by that time, advocates told the St. Paul Pioneer-Press. The more likely explanation, though, is that the plan was a bad one.
Across the country, taxpayers are footing the bills for stadiums to the tune of $4 billion a year. Cities and states have used a host of public financing tactics, but the result is near-universal: revenue from such schemes falls short of projections, the city and state that financed the stadium are left with a shortfall and without the promised economic boom, and taxpayers eventually pick up the tab, whether through higher taxes or cuts to government services.
Usually, hard evidence that stadiums and arenas are boondoggles doesn’t emerge for at least a few years. In Minneapolis, it became obvious before construction crews even broke ground.
_________________________________
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a good financial deal for the city. If it's a publicly funded stadium, it's just a degree of HOW shitty it is for locals (I think the Miami Marlins deal is still the gold standard for that.)

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey