aka the Bill Russell post..

Lets assume this player is in their prime, a sure-shot HOF'er, but they just aren't great natural scorers.

Does that exist in today's game??

Only recent player I can think of is Jason Kidd.. anyone else?

Billups is close too, but I wouldn't consider him a GREAT player, (contrary to popular opinion here.) More like "very good" and needs a certain kind of system to flourish

eliminating point guards Ben WAllace and Manu come to mind.

Manu is probably slightly above average scorer especially when you consider the minutes...Wallace was a below average scorer.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

>Manu is probably slightly above average scorer especially when
>you consider the minutes...Wallace was a below average
>scorer.

Manu is in the same category as Nash. If anyone has any doubts that Manu could have average 25ppg during his prime then just looked at his 2005 postseason run.

He outscored Melo: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2005-nba-western-conference-first-round-nuggets-vs-spurs.html

Went toe-to-toe w/ PEAK Ray & actually outplayed him: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2005-nba-western-conference-semifinals-supersonics-vs-spurs.html (Pop inserts him into the starting lineup & he goes off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VV6ibmaUFc)

Kept pace w/ MVP Nash: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2005-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-suns.html

Outscored Rip & badly outplayed him: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2005-nba-finals-pistons-vs-spurs.html

Off the top of my head:

His coming out game was actually in '03-'04 against the Lakers when Tim/Tony were out & he went at GP/Kobrick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8zhDrzorXs

During the '04-'05 season, there was a game where he lit up Joe Johnson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoGnzDLDAU

Then there was a game he came off the bench & dropped 40 on the Hawks including 24 STRAIGHT at one point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFJ91zcPVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QY-0nevX10)

Finally, there was period were Tony was injured & he was inserted into the starting lineup. He proceeded to drop two 40+ point games on the road:

-First he outduels Bron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6drdXtuXQ8
-Then he slay the Wolves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RRrdTOBvYk

His final 40 pt game also came when Tony was injured & he got inserted into the starting lineup against Orlando. SVG tried putting everyone on him but he couldn't be stopped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTwOhXQpl-Q

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

lol

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

i consider it to be more around 14-15ppg

a team of average scorers would be an average offensive team as a whole.

a team with the offensive prowess of afflalo at every position would be the worst offensive team in the league. Imagine the knicks without zingis and melo

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

>a team with the offensive prowess of afflalo at every position
>would be the worst offensive team in the league. Imagine the
>knicks without zingis and melo

Affalo was a boarderline Leastern conference All-Star in '13-'14 when he averaged 20ppg for a good chunk of the season:
-http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10363736/arron-afflalo-magical-breakthrough
-http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2014/2/3/5374476/2014-nba-all-star-reserves-roster-arron-afflalo-joe-johnson

Someone like ReDick would be a slightly above average scorer. Even Jason Terry was BETTER than a slightly above average scorer. Manu's floor as a primary option would have been Joe Johnson.

Freakin' Kevin Martin averaged 23+ in THREE different seasons & was once the leading scorer in the league for like a month, lol:

"On August 28, 2007, the Sacramento Kings and Martin agreed to a 5-year, $55 million deal.

Martin got off to a fast start to the NBA season, while in the first 15 games was the NBA's leading scorer with 29.6 PPG. Martin finished the season 6th in the NBA in scoring at 23.7 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 2.1 APG and averaging 45% from the court and 40% from three point range."

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

would be average offensively?? ok guy.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

he not at his prime yet though.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

he finished in the top 10 a few times, so he wasn't an average scorer, but he comes to mind if you compare his scoring ability to how great he was overall

I think with him, his completeness as a player undersold his scoring prowess.

Even though he avg 20+ for a good chunk of his career, he prolly could've scored more, but at a detriment to team success

Maurice Cheeks, Anthony Mason, Doc Rivers,

------------------
One Hundred.

And to be honest, Cheeks, Johnson, Dumars got in due to team success more than anything else.

Mason, Rivers, Green dont even belong. They were simply good players imo

>And to be honest, Cheeks, Johnson, Dumars got in due to team
>success more than anything else.

Mo Cheeks was a level below either one, he was #3/#4 guy on a championship squad & never made the All-NBA team.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

---------------------------------
Photo zine(some images NSFW): http://bit.ly/USaSPhoto

"This (and every, actually) conversation needs more Chesterton and less Mike Francesa." - Walleye

This post did not go unappreciated

------------------------------------------

"And just because I smile they be thinking I be jokin..."


http://twitter.com/DrunkUncleP

Because most of the people you list COULD average more
points, they don't do it because it's not what they want
to do

Chris Paul ain't never averaged 25

Do you REALLY think he can't put up 26 per night on a
decent (if not really good) team?

Of course he can

Centers too like dikembe.

i think its hard to find hof level 2, 3 or 4 that wasn't scoring 20+ every night.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

>Centers too like dikembe.
>
>i think its hard to find hof level 2, 3 or 4 that wasn't
>scoring 20+ every night.

So who is it for then?



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

than 20 pts a game if he played more minutes.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

If he was jacking up shots like Curry, he would have averaged 25 in his sleep. Dude averaged 30 ppg on 55% shooting in the 2005 series against the Mavs when was playing w/ vengeance.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

He could have easily averaged 27-28ppg at 48% or so ala C-Webb in '00-'01.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

But then he decided to become a 45%+ three point shooter and start putting up 20 a night so I guess he doesn't really qualify anymore

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/dam/assets/141025212656-20141025-nba-rising-kawhi-leonard-00002527.1200x672.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eRzh2f-OiD4/VBy_Ot6FJFI/AAAAAAAAAXo/GnJrPRgtMiM/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2014-09-19%2Bat%2B7.41.21%2BPM.png

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

About sums up the filf experience

Paul George figured it out in the 2013 ECF
Kawhi figured it out in the 2014 Finals
Draymond figured it out in the 2015 Finals

They were already in their primes & could have done what they are doing now back then, it's just that they didn't get the opportunity nor have the confidence. Folks would have been asking if James Harden could average 25ppg if he was still a bench player in OKC.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

Kahwi is just touching his prime now. He wasn't in his prime in 2014

You are claiming he coulda done in 2014 what he's doing now, by responding to a post that says he's shooting 45+% from 3.

So you saying kahwi coulda done that 2 years ago if he had the opportunity???


you sound like a blathering idiot fam.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

>Kahwi is just touching his prime now. He wasn't in his prime
>in 2014

Cats throw "in his prime" phrase without actually defining it. Players are in their primes when they have the skillset not when they JUST put up the numbers.

Manu was in his prime back in 2002 when he was a 25 year old rookie but he was injured during his rookie season & didn't earn Pop's trust until his 3rd season where he made the All-Star team & made the All-NBA squad. Anybody that watched him In FIBA/Olympics know he didn't enter his prime in 2004-05.

>You are claiming he coulda done in 2014 what he's doing now,
>by responding to a post that says he's shooting 45+% from 3.

Kawhi has been stroking since his rookie season & is a CAREER 41% three point shooter in the postseason. He didn't play as well in regular season b/c of he following:

2011-12: Had a short training camp & short season during his rookie season b/c of the lockout
2012-13: Had knee tendinitis (missed 24 games)
2013-14: Broke his hand (missed 16 games)
2014-15: Tore a ligament in his hand last season (missed 18 games) & had to play w/ conjunctivitis which he said affected his vision for months thus he struggled shooting the ball early in the season.

In 2014, he came back from his hand injury AFTER the all-star break & shot 48% from 3 in March. His per 100 possession numbers for the 2013-14 season were 22/10 (TS%: 60) on 18% usage rate & he was able to maintain that in the postseason against ELITE competition.

>So you saying kahwi coulda done that 2 years ago if he had the
>opportunity???

Did you miss the 2014 Finals when he FINALLY got the opportunity to do his thing? (He was also performed at a high level late last season after coming back from his hand injury & was torching the Clippers in the playoff before they started doubling him)

>you sound like a blathering idiot fam.

You are the IDIOT talking out of your ass without providing any FACTS to backup your claims.

T-Mac didn't enter his prime in a matter of 6 month & transform from a role player to an superstar. Same w/ Harden, same with Draymond, Paul George...etc.

A guy like Jimmy Butler is another story since dude had a shaky jumper which is something that could be fixed during an offseason & he did fix it (otherwise he was always able to get to the rim at will).

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

Proof: read anything you ever wrote.

Now those some Friday fun facts for your ass.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

Enjoy Kawhi molesting Iggy at the Oracle back in 2013 when the Big 3 were resting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRWp2uNYkM8

Quit posting w/ your emotions b/c you are sounding real butt-hurt.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

Unlike PG's like Curry & Westbrook who are scoring guards first, Paul is moreso a traditional PG. his FG % would be shoddy as fuck if he attempted that


>Do you REALLY think he can't put up 26 per night on a
>decent (if not really good) team?
>
>Of course he can

>Unlike PG's like Curry & Westbrook who are scoring guards
>first, Paul is moreso a traditional PG. his FG % would be
>shoddy as fuck if he attempted that

WestBrick shot 42% when he averaged 29 last season & is shooting 45% this season while averaging 24 ppg which is what Monta did during his peak. CP3 before he got injured could have easily averaged 25ppg on 48% for an entire season.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

I don't think he is as good of a scorer as Steve Nash was but in the same way that Nash could take over a game scoring when necessary, Paul could.

I was about to say he couldn't get 40 on a big night like Nash but then I remembered him dropping like 36-9-9-9 on Nash one night.

But nah he isn't as good of a shooter/scorer but you're making him out to sound like Rondo or Kidd or someone else who really had to force it to put up big scoring numbers.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

that's pathetic for somebody that played on the paint

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/year/2002/seasontype/2

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

he ALWAYS had a nice balanced team

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

Though "great player, below average scorer" would be more accurate for him.

he'll likely get in eventually, but that's only cus HOF entrance criteria is lax as fuck

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

Iggy could have put up DeMar Derozan type numbers if he was about getting buckets.

Nic Batum is Iggy-lite & he could put up Rudy Gay type numbers w/ more shot attempts.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

He was the man in Philly & Denver, and couldn't score enough to carry his squad when asked to do so. He's slightly above average at best when it comes to scoring, and I love Iggy. Iggy is dope because he's so well rounded.

In a generation of swine, the one-eyed pig is king.
-Hunter S. Thompson

Derozan last season averaged 20.1 on 16.5 FGAs

Iggy in '07-'08 averaged 19.9 on 15.6 FGAs

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

he had every opportunity to assert himself on bad teams (philly) and ones lacking a first option (denver). he isn't a first option, he isn't a great scorer. he is an adequate scorer who does just about everything else above average to very well. but he isn't a HOF level player so who cares anyway?

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

>he had every opportunity to assert himself on bad teams
>(philly) and ones lacking a first option (denver). he isn't a
>first option, he isn't a great scorer. he is an adequate
>scorer who does just about everything else above average to
>very well. but he isn't a HOF level player so who cares
>anyway?

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

The guy averaged 20 on 45% shooting as the #1 on a playoff team (07-08), I would like to see Harrison Barnes pull that off b/c I'm pretty sure he's considered an "average scorer".

B-Roy basically put up similar numbers during the same season while playing a similar role on another .500 team.

Just b/c he didn't want to be a scorer, it doesn't mean he was an average scorer. Boris Diaw could have averaged 20 if he wanted it, same w/ Lamar Odumb & now Nic Batum but they don't have a scorer mentality.

Pippen could have averaged 25 multiple seasons if he was out there chuckin' up shots but folks act like he was just an above average scorer.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

Jumper isn't consistent enough to be a great scorer

And comparing him to Klay doesn't make sense. Klay is still young and seemingly afraid of the moment

I just brought up him outscoring Klay b/c that is proof he can actually put up numbers if he's FORCED to be a scorer unlike Barnes whose job is to actually score.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

Take that criteria away tho and he fits the profile perfectly


Guy who does everything else above average to outstanding

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

I love Ben but he has had better weapons than damn near any QB in the last 10 years and he hasn't ever put up BIG numbers consistently. He's a winner no doubt but were still waiting on the MVP season.

-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.

But Ben still fits the profile

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

I am sure someone will jump down my throat but if Russell was not "a great scorer" then neither is Duncan. Both were capable of going off but didn't do it regularly. Russell scored 15 points a game sharing the ball with many capable scorers, Duncan scored 19 a night often as his team's first option. Very similar players in terms of their roles.

Rodman was not an average scorer, he was terrible offensively. Putbacks (maybe) and the odd three-pointer here or there. He is a HOF'er. Deke was an average scorer and he is headed to the hall. Ben Wallace played at a HOF level during his peak, but I don't think it was long enough for him to make it ultimately. Kidd you already mentioned. Of course the rebuttal there was that he was New Jersey's first option on two trips to the Finals but anyone who watched him knew he was very streaky in terms of production and not very pretty getting to it when it came to scoring. His ability to see/understand the game and also his very powerful combination of size/speed were what made him a stud, not his scoring.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

as say Olajuwon, but Duncan more than held his own throughout his career. At age 37, he posted games of 30 and 24 points in games 6 & 7 vs. the Heat. He was a dumb substitution away from winning the Finals MVP at age 37. His playoff scoring is well above his season average. When called upon to carry the team on his back through his scoring, he's almost always come through.

I know OKP loves to play up the narrative that Shaq outplayed Tim head to head, but the numbers don't lie. Let's not forget Timmay put up some MONSTER numbers on a prime Stoudemire too.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

If you're standard of great scorer is some like Wilt, Dream, MJ, or say Kobe, then yeah sure, he's not a 'great' scorer. But the bottom line is that he did whatever to help his team win and that often included scoring. His career #s could be much more inflated had he been more selfish. By 2005, Ginobli and Parker had fully arrived and were hitting their peak so it's not like he's been a true #1 his whole career - heck, he really only was from like 99-2005. And in those early year, he was sharing a bit of the load with the Admiral.

Yeah, the guys you mentioned were great scorers. So were Shaq and David Robinson. Ewing was a better scorer. Duncan is the top end of overall players, no question, but that part of his game just wasn't that consistent or prolific. I didn't say he was average either, he is well above average. But to talk about Russell like he's Rodman or Ben Wallace, and then lump Tim in with the Hakeem, Shaq, prime Admiral, et al seems weird. Both guys were defensive anchors, Russell was an incredible rebounder (Tim is also very good) and they were both good passers. In terms of scoring though, both guys deferred some and weren't exactly known for it. I think Tim had a broader arsenal of moves. Russell just did whatever it took to win, which sometimes meant scoring but generally did not, especially with the personnel they had.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

his rookie year he and Robinson were options 1 and 1a, then for the next 7 years the Spurs offense went directly through Tim. He carried the scoring load as the Spurs top scorer each of those seasons and put up 25.5 and 23.3 ppg in his back-to-back MVP years. Plus he stepped it up in the postseason averaging over 23 ppg his first 10 years in the playoffs and still has a career playoff average over 21 ppg. I wouldn't necessarily call Duncan a prolific scorer, but in his prime he was a really good and remarkably consistent scorer.

By contrast Russell was never a 20 ppg scorer and was never the Celtics #1 option. In fact for the most part he wasn't even the C's #2 option, Boston's top scorers were Sharman and Cousy then Heinson and Jones and Havlicek. Russell was not the focal point of Boston's offense and never shouldered the scoring load like Tim did in his prime. Once Parker and Ginobili came into their own and Pop handed the keys of the offense to them Tim settled into a complimentary role and deferred more somewhat akin to Russell, but in their respective primes their scoring roles were nothing alike.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

>Yeah, the guys you mentioned were great scorers. So were Shaq
>and David Robinson. Ewing was a better scorer. Duncan is the
>top end of overall players, no question, but that part of his
>game just wasn't that consistent or prolific. I didn't say he
>was average either, he is well above average.

Ewing? Ewing averaged 19 pts & shot 36% in the '94 Finals. He also got clowned on by the great Rik Smits multiple times including '95 when he averaged 19 & missed the finger-roll at the buzzer.

>But to talk
>about Russell like he's Rodman or Ben Wallace, and then lump
>Tim in with the Hakeem, Shaq, prime Admiral, et al seems
>weird. Both guys were defensive anchors, Russell was an
>incredible rebounder (Tim is also very good) and they were
>both good passers. In terms of scoring though, both guys
>deferred some and weren't exactly known for it.

Tim wasn't deferring much after his rookie season until Tony/Manu came into their own. He wasn't averaging 30 back in his prime b/c the Spurs played a slow paced offense & teams would double him on a consistent basis thus he didn't force up shot, instead he found the shooters.

Tim has outscored the most prolific scorers of his era (Shaq/Kobe/Dirk) MULTIPLE times in a playoff series. During the 2003 postseason run, he had a string of 4 consecutive games w/ at least 32/15 (only been done by Wilt/Baylor: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-06-03/sports/0306030282_1_tim-duncan-spurs-coach-gregg-popovich-playoff-history)

As far as Hakeem vs. Tim: (first 6 seasons):
-Tim: 22.9 12.3 3.2
-Hakeem: 23.2 12.4 2.2

Career per 100 possession:
-Hakeem 30.3 on 23.6 FGAs
-Tim: 29.7 on 22.8 FGAs

Post prime Tim (2008-) would be a good comparison to Russell otherwise it's comparing apples to oranges.

>I think Tim
>had a broader arsenal of moves. Russell just did whatever it
>took to win, which sometimes meant scoring but generally did
>not, especially with the personnel they had.

I'll let Nellie handle that: "I suppose Bill Walton is not a bad comparison as far as knowing the game, passing and moving the ball and knowing what it takes to win," said Dallas coach Don Nelson, who has played and coached in the NBA for 40 years. "But he's so much better offensively than Walton. He's much more versatile than Kevin McHale. He's kind of a combination Bird and McHale, but at center.

"There's never been a guy in the game like him, as well-rounded, that I can remember. I don't know where the weakness is."

Tim put the whole league on notice that he can't be single covered during his playoff debut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB7XD8km7L0

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

>as say Olajuwon, but Duncan more than held his own throughout
>his career. At age 37, he posted games of 30 and 24 points in
>games 6 & 7 vs. the Heat.

He was the LEADING scorer on the team in the 2014 WCF against OKC & outscored Mr. HOFer Bosh in the Finals. He also gave Mr. I-Should-Have-Been-DPOY DeAndre the business in last season's playoff series, all on one leg.

>I know OKP loves to play up the narrative that Shaq outplayed
>Tim head to head, but the numbers don't lie. Let's not forget
>Timmay put up some MONSTER numbers on a prime Stoudemire too.

Tim outscored Shaq in '99/'02/'03; he actually BADLY outplayed him in all 3 series (Spurs would have beaten the Lakers in '02 if Steve Smith wasn't trash). He also got him in '08 but Shaq was past his prime.

Amare couldn't guard Tim for a single possession & all the FALSE narratives about Amare outplaying Tim in '05 has to do w/ Pop refusing to help off shooters on the PnRs which ended being a winning strategy. Tim outscored Amare '07 when the Suns were favored in the series & also in '08 after the Suns brought Shaq specifically to guard Tim.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

>Kidd you already mentioned. Of course the rebuttal
>there was that he was New Jersey's first option on two trips
>to the Finals but anyone who watched him knew he was very
>streaky in terms of production and not very pretty getting to
>it when it came to scoring. His ability to see/understand the
>game and also his very powerful combination of size/speed were
>what made him a stud, not his scoring.

Rondo is the one that doesn't have a postup game, an even worse jumper/range, no size advantage.......the guy was being dared to score in the 2010 Finals as if he was Tony Allen.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png

I've never seen such an average wing scorer w/ multiple 20ppg seasons.

The guy was blessed to have played a majority of his career w/ the two best PGs of his era (Kidd/Nash) & Marbury wasn't bad either. Otherwise, dude had no moves besides his floater/flip shot whether it be facing up & driving or posting up & spinning.

On half-court sets, he would just camp in the corner & throw up his ugly chest shot.

Dude was exposed when he was traded to Miami & Riley realized quickly he wasn't quite like Pippen. He then got traded to Toronto & couldn't play wing-man to RuPaul.

I still remember him not be able to outscore Bruce Bowen in the 2005 WCF when past-prime Horry outplayed him: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2005-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-suns.html

Actually, Horry is another player that fits the mold although he was never a "great player" or an All-Star. But if I'm going to a playoff series, give me prime Horry over Marion.

You also have Andre Miller who is #9 all-time in assists & Mark Jackson who is #4 all-time in assists. Rondo will also fit the mold if he has a long career.

WHAT'S GOOD *****? What's REALLY good?!?!????!!! Ha HA!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d8e2daf9f3f37244cd05436bcdf05973/tumblr_mt4qibKq4c1rgam01o1_1280.png