Several years ago I started watching a western a day in the month of August. It coincided with an exhibition I saw at the Eiteljorg Museum in Indianapolis called The Reel West that "explored morality, diversity and American identity as depicted in the Western film genre". Since then I have been to the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum where they have a Western Performers Gallery that "explores the various ways the American West has been represented in literature and film".

Anyway, does anyone want to discuss westerns? Any recommendations?

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

>Anyway, does anyone want to discuss westerns? Any
>recommendations?

i feel like it was inevitable i would get into westerns. aside from blazing saddles and tombstone, i think it really started in college, when i borrowed movies from the library instead of studying or partying. i know he's persona non grata around here post "chair" betrayal, but for me it was the movies of clint eastwood, specifically unforgiven and the man with no name or dollar trilogy. i watched the searchers but maybe wasn't mature enough to appreciate it at the time. i enjoyed the treasure of the sierra madre more. at the same time, i was also watching jim jarmusch movies, and i liked his film dead man. into my 20s, i would watch more of clint's westerns (actor or director) but also more spaghetti westerns. i loved ennio morricone's music in the latter; rest in peace. eventually i ventured out of italy (and spanish coproductions) and back to the origin.

i'd rent or stream the occasional western just as part of my regular diet of all sorts of movies, not as a focus. i generally went for well regarded films with big name actors or directors from the golden age but also the odd italian or some other cool and quirky euro film from the '60s or '70s.

i resubscribed to cable in 2014 mostly to watch on demand. even though i didn't have the channels in my lineup, i could watch sony movie channel and mgm hd on demand, which basically were allotments of their catalogs, usually of little general interest and not well remembered even by people alive at the time. i always knew there were a lot of westerns, but i quickly realized just how many of those and military movies were made back in the day (i think there are astonishing statistics out there about the height of westerns specifically). every month i would make time to sort through the new selections, half of which were westerns and war movies. since they didn't cost me anything to watch, i'd make time for the ones with actors i like, notable directors, and high ratings/good reviews. charles bronson made a lot of these, and it's hard for me to say no to him because he kicked ass. anyway, circumstances had me reading a lot of (viewer) reviews of fairly obscure westerns to find the diamonds in the rough, and i considered it time well spent.

there is a wide variety of westerns, not even counting other films influenced by westerns (which can also set me off on a quest) and parallel genres like samurai films. i still really enjoy spaghetti or italian westerns, and i found i naturally gravitated toward hollywood's own post-golden age revisionist westerns, and there was a give and take there with europe. i watched sam peckinpah's major works. i think this era of westerns still stands up and has something to say. i also like psychological westerns, notably from anthony mann. the film logan got me watching twilight westerns. i really enjoyed john wayne in the cowboys and especially the shootist, which i'd already wanted to see for years. generally i'd rather watch something with henry fonda, jimmy stewart, maybe with warren oates or bruce dern in a supporting role, but there are a lot of actors and directors whose names are sufficient to pique my interest.

I should really enjoy the movie but honestly it is just okay to me.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

The Western sees the lack of order on the American frontier as simultaneously a severe moral danger and an opportunity for beauty and greatness. The Western Hero is an Evangelist for the American gospel of individualism and capitalism, bringing order to the perilous disorder of the open, free West.

By contrast, the noir/hardboiled detective doesn't view his action as redemptive, either for himself or the world. For the former, because we are not redeemers - we are helpless and require redemption. For the latter, because evil is a corruption, a lack and not a thing itself. You can't destroy a corruption because it has no content. You can only repair it in small, isolated moments. The hardboiled detective takes a case, and solves that case. He doesn't heal the land.

But that's a really wide brush and these genres seem to have influenced each other a lot. Dashiell Hammett's "Red Harvest" became the foundation of the hardboiled detective novel in the United States, but it also became "Yojimbo" under Kurasawa's care and "Fistful of Dollars" under Sergio Leone's. Criterion recently had a collection called "Western Noir" that also dealt with the substantial overlap in these categories. So even though I like to grandstand about the ideological separation of these two genres, it's not destiny - and plenty of folks have told a Western story with a hardboiled moral arc. And vice versa, I suppose. Though I think hardboiled accidents with Western substance is a bit more ideologically rigid - you can usually tell those ones because the detective will be a cop.

All this is to say that I don't really like Westerns because they are often a type of propaganda that I don't like. Propaganda's fine, if it's propagating something true. But the war against the disorder-as-wilderness in the Western treats the process of re-order as something laudable when it was built on the twin lies of free land (taken by force from American Indians) and free labor (taken by force from black slaves). The Western genre did a ton of working laundering that as something constructive, rather than destructive - necessary brutalities to build a civilization where men could live freely.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

the Unforgiven. Which is all about deconstructing the Western Mythology.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Yeah, and when they make that critique in the form of a traditional western, it works really nicely. Though I think the one way that move doesn't succeed is that even a Western that offers an insider's critique on the idea of imposing order on the wilderness still implicitly treats the open-ness of the West as a shorthand for the idea of freedom.

That's why I prefer the more direct argument offered by the hardboiled detective: because the urban-ness (urbanity?) of the story is a clearer way of understanding how Americans relate to each other. In short - the setting addresses more of us and, because the narrative of the American city is still being made and re-made constantly,* the narrative is more democratic.

*I wish I had a better way to put that. But I remember when I was growing up in the rich DC suburbs that the riots in DC in the late 60s and in the early 90s were both treated as meaningful and transformative parts of the city's history. And not always in a suburban-liberal-showing-moral-horror-at-civil-unrest kind of way. More like the way architectural tours in Chicago talk about the fire: this is a thing that happened here.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

exhibitions I visited. The part of the story regarding how Dan's son viewed his dad, the scene where those guys were torturing Ben and Butterfeild (?) told them it was morally wrong, along with many of the moral decisions Dan made. The values of the American west are on full display in this movie. I do really enjoy this one!

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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<---https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DL9AVTQ

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

<--- Me when my head hits the pillow

Once Upon a Time in the West

The man with no Name trilogy

Magnificent Seven

Coens True Grit

Open Range (trust me)

Wild Bunch

Django Unchained

Django

>Several years ago I started watching a western a day in the
>month of August. It coincided with an exhibition I saw at the
>Eiteljorg Museum in Indianapolis called The Reel West that
>"explored morality, diversity and American identity as
>depicted in the Western film genre". Since then I have been to
>the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum where they have
>a Western Performers Gallery that "explores the various ways
>the American West has been represented in literature and
>film".
>
>Anyway, does anyone want to discuss westerns? Any
>recommendations?

It's a great, no frills/no gimmicks western. A simple story told well.

The final shootout is brilliant.

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very pleased with it

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Interesting how I didn’t do that intentionally

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

and enjoyed it.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

nice cast

The way they just stole those cattle seems familiar. Like in Red River when the main character just takes that land. It amazes me how that is the way of the West.

Lonsome Dove is pretty good! Better than I thought it would be - the characters are interesting.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Not even sure why. In some ways, it's as problematic as any other western. But I just love spending time with the characters.

----
I check for: Serengeti, Zeroh, Open Mike Eagle, Jeremiah Jae, Moka Only.

Loved it!

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

are woefully under-seen and under-appreciated, particularly:

7 Men from Now
The Tall T
Comanche Station
Buchanan Rides Alone
Decision at Sundown

Boetticher would do more in an 80-minute film than most do in 2 hours and with less resources and a more wooden lead actor.

For most of my life westerns have been my favorite genre of film

-------------------------------

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will try and check it out.

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Generally I like to go by director when it comes to Westerns (works for Noir too), since lots of them did more than a few back in those days when contracts were the norm. Of course you have the giants John Ford or Sergio Leone, but I’d put Anthony Mann at the same level (Man Of The West, Winchester 73), or Peckinpah. Nicholas Ray, even though he did fewer Westerns, has to be named if only for the masterpiece that is Johnny Guitar (Run For Cover is décent too).
Boettincher is a great example of a today less heralded name but who did some great work. Delmer Daves is up there too

------------------------------
For the record, my teams:
MLB: Mets / Soccer: PSG
NCAA BB: Arizona / NCAA FB: Michigan
NBA: Spurs / NFL: Jets

Both shows have a single black character who earned their place in the crowd by having served military service under the main character. I noticed that and then I found this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/10/how-the-west-was-lost/502850/

Also, Zahn McClarnon is like in everything that needs Indian American actors! There gotta be more out there - I mean there is nothing wrong with him, but ... he is in everything.

I think I am going to watch "Reel Injun" next.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Yeah, I had a white friend of mine years ago tell me there were no Black people in the West. It was all I could do not to punch him in his face.

Instead, I had to school him on what little I knew of the diversity of the West, particularly the abundance of Black cowboys which I'd learned from my relatively cursory studies on the subject.

There is a long and robust history of Black people in the West and significant scholarship on the matter and the fact that that has not been corrected via modern day cinema is a damn shame.


Spot on about Zahn McClarnon. He's like today's Wes Studi or Graham Greene.

-------------------------------

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did a good job of telling the story of Black cowboys but, it has been over a year since I was there. I do know they are not overlooked. I feel like there was a small gallery about black cowboys...? Like I said, I can't remember fully.

I want to go back to Oklahoma right around the time of the Black Rodeo so I can attend. And of course I am going back to the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum. That place really amazed me! It was much more than I expected.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

lol

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

so many more American Indian performers. It is great!

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

true events. Pretty good movie.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

probably influenced by all those weekends by dad would watch westerns on TNT/AMC.

the John Wayne stuff, not so much as I aged (although the cinematography in The Searchers is stunning). Leone yes, my favorite being Once Upon a Time in the West (one of the best films of any genre). most of Clint's western work I dig; Unforgiven and High Plains Drifter especially.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Love Fistful of Dollars.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

as it features a marked step-up in filmmaking skills from FFDM, Lee Van Cleef and the Van Cleef/Eastwood dynamic, and a shorter runtime than GBE so I can just throw it on. No one seems to like it as much as me but I kind of think it'd be the Empire Strikes Back of the three films if GBE wasn't so damn good.

Once Upon a Time is still my favorite Leone film of all time and maybe my favorite film of all time. If I had to rank his westerns.

Once Upon a Time in the West
Good, Bad and The Ugly
For a Few Dollars More -I sometimes have this in my #2 slot
Fistful of Dollars - Not that it is any slouch and not an absolute classic. It's just Leone got better

I've still not seen 'Duck You Sucker!' even though it is now pretty wildly available

-------------------------------

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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------------------
One Hundred.

I was a good enough book adaptation. I love Steinbeck though! East of Eden (the book) in my jam.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

I MAY have seen the Sinise/Malkovich version when it came out when I was young but I don't think I've seen the 1939 version before. Lon Chaney and Burgess Meredith is a very compelling duo.

Also, have you seen 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller'? As a so-called revisionist Western it's most definitely a Western but not a WESTERN. It's fantastic.


Also, speaking of non-traditional Westerns, the late Antonia Bird's "Ravenous" is fantastic and one of the only good horror Westerns.

-------------------------------

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I submit Bone Tomahawk also

>I MAY have seen the Sinise/Malkovich version when it came out
>when I was young but I don't think I've seen the 1939 version
>before. Lon Chaney and Burgess Meredith is a very compelling
>duo.
>
>Also, have you seen 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller'? As a so-called
>revisionist Western it's most definitely a Western but not a
>WESTERN. It's fantastic.
>
>
>Also, speaking of non-traditional Westerns, the late Antonia
>Bird's "Ravenous" is fantastic and one of the only good horror
>Westerns.

You can tell he's a piece of shit from the movies he makes and the books he writes.

That and being Dallas Sonnier's standard bearer for right-wing exploitation films.

I generally don't have a principled issue w/ regressive cinema or even reactionary cinema of the past (see: The original 'Death Wish') but in these days and times I don't truck with it.

I hope he's in director's jail for abysmal last film ("Dragged Across Concrete" and the fact that Sonnier's company is in deep shit for covering up sexual assault. If Zahler never works again I'm all for it.

Fuck him and fuck his movies.

That said, Bone Tomahawk is the certainly best film he made mostly because it's not terrible in terms of craft for the first two acts before it devolves into his trademark relentless edgelord gorgy.

One could say I have strong feelings about Zahler.

-------------------------------

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I did not know he was racist. Although some of his characters are racist.

>You can tell he's a piece of shit from the movies he makes
>and the books he writes.
>
>That and being Dallas Sonnier's standard bearer for right-wing
>exploitation films.
>
>I generally don't have a principled issue w/ regressive cinema
>or even reactionary cinema of the past (see: The original
>'Death Wish') but in these days and times I don't truck with
>it.
>
>I hope he's in director's jail for abysmal last film ("Dragged
>Across Concrete" and the fact that Sonnier's company is in
>deep shit for covering up sexual assault. If Zahler never
>works again I'm all for it.
>
>Fuck him and fuck his movies.
>
>That said, Bone Tomahawk is the certainly best film he made
>mostly because it's not terrible in terms of craft for the
>first two acts before it devolves into his trademark
>relentless edgelord gorgy.
>
>One could say I have strong feelings about Zahler.
>
>

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

It's well-regarded, and deservedly so, but is overshadowed by Ford's other, more popular/groundbreaking westerns like 'Stagecoach' and 'The Searchers.'

It's got gorgeous black and white cinematography, Henry Ford who could actually act, a fantastic Doc Holliday from Victor Mature (my favorite incarnation after Val Kilmer) and a great dance sequence. It's Ford, so problematic racial stereotypes are a given although it has been years since I've seen this and can't recall to what extent although the female lead is woman named 'Chihuahua,'portrayed by Linda Darnell.

If anyone hasn't seen Once Upon a Time in the West, I encourage them to watch this first to see just how much of an inspired turn Ford's performance was in that relative to this.

-------------------------------

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When I was about 12-13, my Dad took me & my brother to the theater to see "Silverado." It starred Danny Glover, Kevin Kline, Kevin Costner and Brian Dennehy as the corrupt sheriff.

I remember absolutely loving this movie. It wasn't just a sentimental thing where I connected it to my Dad either. He & I watched a number of movies together and I had no problem letting him know if I didn't like something.

Like I said, I don't know much about Westerns so maybe "Silverado" isn't considered to be any good within the genre. But I was into it. I only mentioned it because no one else in the post had brought it up.

No Country For Old Men?

Both of those movies were featured in the exhibition at the Eiteljorg I mentioned in the op.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

>No Country For Old Men?
>
>Both of those movies were featured in the exhibition at the
>Eiteljorg I mentioned in the op.

I need to see that and "Tombstone."

The black dress Stella wears was in the exhibition, to me specific. Sometimes I watch this movie and she my favorite character. Last night, Paden was my favorite.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Another John Wayne movie

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

I do not like the way the single black character is portrayed or spoken to in this movie. I had to look up his name because is sounded like they were calling him something else. His name is Nicodemus.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Very long, but good. I'd probably seen this growing up flipping channels, but never really sat downs and watched it.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Pretty good.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Missed yesterday but, and suggestions? Any topics to discuss?

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

i found them wildly entertaining

looking. Every scene with him in it gave me the Heebie-jeebies.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

I was a child when it came out so I don't think I have ever seen it all the way through.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Haven't seen it since I rented it with friends in high school, but I enjoyed it a lot.

Seeing now that it wasn't reviewed particularly well. That early 90s western revival was a mixed bag, I guess. But I'm not going to go back on what I thought until I re-watch it. Curious to hear how you feel about it.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

I was kind of dismayed by the bad reviews, since I remembered it fondly.

I know they can't all be winners, and that early 90s western revival (seems like you're doing a very cool deep dive on that) probably has more failures than I remember. But I feel like I was old enough to have some reasonable views on good movies.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

------------------
One Hundred.

so long to get around to it.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Billy Bob Thornton was that card guy. And I totally did not realize that was Val Kilmer playing Doc. The movie was long, but it was pretty good.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

It wasn't great but it had a lot of stars in it and I found it amusing to see Leo DiCaprio so young.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Didn't they show somebody getting shot in the chest that was angled, like, behind the shooting victim, through the gaping hole, and to the shooter in front of him?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

He was cold blooded.

********************************

Get Out The Room!
http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
@fakewilliamkatt

"You probably wouldn't worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do!" - Olin Miller

it is really good!

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Im hyped

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

needed a premium subscription to watch more than the first episode. I got that subscription during Black Friday sales so now I am going to really watch it.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

Open Range is one of the greatest westerns ever made. I think its Costner's best directorial effort, even better than Dances. Its such a good movie.

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

>Open Range is one of the greatest westerns ever made. I think
>its Costner's best directorial effort, even better than
>Dances. Its such a good movie.

I tell this to everyone. Criminally slept on movie

Hell of a cast. Great movie. On HULU along with Open Range

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

by the Coward Robert Ford?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)

It was western, war drama, romance and probably more.

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"Love is never any better than the lover" Toni Morrison (The Bluest Eye)