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Subject: "Picard" Previous topic | Next topic
stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Thu Jan-23-20 10:22 AM

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"Picard"


          


Starts tonight.

There doesn't seem to be much of a Star Trek contingent around here. But maybe there are a few who, like me, have been looking forward to it for months.

Stewart, Chabon, Borg, "Synths", Romulan refugees, a big pile of money, and a pitbull named "Number One." If this show delivers on its promise it could be the best thing to ever come out of the franchise.

We'll see.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
It might be because a lot of us don't fux with CBS Access
Jan 23rd 2020
1
^^ this
Jan 23rd 2020
2
I'm pretty sure they have a free option.
Jan 23rd 2020
3
      oh I didn't know this...thanks for the heads up
Jan 28th 2020
9
           Turns out I was wrong.
Jan 28th 2020
10
I’m in this boat. I love Star Trek but I don’t have CBS Access
Jan 24th 2020
7
My wife is bonkers excited for it
Jan 23rd 2020
4
Okay, the first episode is FUCKING fantastic.
Jan 23rd 2020
5
Yeah yo I'm excited
Jan 24th 2020
6
Good first ep, IMO
Jan 25th 2020
8
RE: Picard
Jan 29th 2020
11
This was fun as hell / dumb TNG questions
Jan 30th 2020
12
RE: This was fun as hell / dumb TNG questions
Jan 31st 2020
13
      Thanks!
Jan 31st 2020
14
Episode 3:
Feb 06th 2020
15
That was kinda weird.
Feb 07th 2020
16
RE: That was kinda weird.
Feb 08th 2020
17
Spoiler:
Feb 21st 2020
18
      This show doesn't seem remotely in the TNG universe
Feb 26th 2020
19
           Point taken, but there's never been a very uniform "canon" in Star Trek.
Feb 28th 2020
21
                You make good points, maybe I'm jsut tired of the same dystopia
Mar 01st 2020
22
a.k.a. Everybody hates Jean Luc
Feb 26th 2020
20
Episodes 6 & 7 though
Mar 05th 2020
23
This show keeps getting better and better.
Mar 05th 2020
24
      Agreed, mostly
Mar 05th 2020
25
      Oh yeah and that sick bay scene.
Mar 05th 2020
26
           Yeah someone mentioned that in an article a few weeks ago.
Mar 05th 2020
27
                Oh yeah I'm sure 100% intentional
Mar 06th 2020
28
      i really like the show (spls)
Mar 07th 2020
29
Enjoying it, but moving too fast | TNG was so damn good
Mar 08th 2020
30
The Drumhead was/is a great episode
Mar 24th 2020
34
I'm actively tempering my expectations for the finale
Mar 19th 2020
31
Conceptually though, I like what it's saying
Mar 20th 2020
32
I'm in it more for how they say it than what they say.
Mar 20th 2020
33
I';m hoping the androids get turned to Borg
Mar 24th 2020
35
My thoughts on the finale. (spoilers obviously)
Mar 26th 2020
36
Ha, those Prospero lines from The Tempest.
Mar 26th 2020
37
      just one watch here. i agree with your sentiments.
Mar 26th 2020
38
           Yeah I am SO tired of campy, scenery chewing villians.
Mar 26th 2020
39
                Fat Worf would be fun
Mar 27th 2020
40
Solid, not great. But my god Agnes is the worst
Mar 28th 2020
41
I think I pref Orville
Mar 29th 2020
42

BigWorm
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Thu Jan-23-20 03:24 PM

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1. "It might be because a lot of us don't fux with CBS Access"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I even borrowed a friend's account to watch the new Twilight Zone and the first two eps of Discovery. After that I was like nah I'm good.

Maaaayybe if people start raving about Picard. That's a big maybe. With Netflix and Amazon and Hulu and Disney+ and HBO Now, I personally might have reached my limit.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3747 posts
Thu Jan-23-20 03:35 PM

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2. "^^ this"
In response to Reply # 1


          


I was never a huge Trek guy, but the trailers for this look cool. I'm intrigued...but not enough to cop yet another streaming service.

If this were on Amazon or some shit I'd be down.


I haven't seen a single episode of the other new Trek for the same reason.


They should put old Letterman episodes on that shit. I'm trying to think of anything else CBS has that could sweeten the pot, and I got nothing.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Thu Jan-23-20 05:42 PM

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3. "I'm pretty sure they have a free option."
In response to Reply # 2


          


It plays commercials during act-breaks or something, like a network broadcast. I haven't used it though.

I'm enough of a Trek fanatic that I've had CBS All Access from the start, even between seasons. But I've never watched anything other than Discovery and the three or four disappointing episodes of Twilight Zone that I got through. Occasionally I go there to catch a Colbert interview or something. Even the old Star Trek shows I still watch on Netflix, maybe just out of habit.

I'd definitely watch old Lettermans if they posted them, but I'm probably one of very few. More importantly, Dave's CBS deal was so good that I think now he actually owns the episodes. So they'd have to cut a deal for that.

  

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
3747 posts
Tue Jan-28-20 06:30 PM

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9. "oh I didn't know this...thanks for the heads up"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>
>It plays commercials during act-breaks or something, like a
>network broadcast. I haven't used it though.

I'll have to look into this...

>
>I'm enough of a Trek fanatic that I've had CBS All Access from
>the start, even between seasons. But I've never watched
>anything other than Discovery and the three or four
>disappointing episodes of Twilight Zone that I got through.
>Occasionally I go there to catch a Colbert interview or
>something. Even the old Star Trek shows I still watch on
>Netflix, maybe just out of habit.
>
>I'd definitely watch old Lettermans if they posted them, but
>I'm probably one of very few. More importantly, Dave's CBS
>deal was so good that I think now he actually owns the
>episodes. So they'd have to cut a deal for that.
>

Didn't know that, good for him. Of course, that makes me feel it is far less likely old episodes will ever see the light of day...

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Tue Jan-28-20 08:55 PM

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10. "Turns out I was wrong."
In response to Reply # 9
Tue Jan-28-20 09:22 PM by stravinskian

          

The tier with commercials is cheaper ($6 instead of $10), but there isn't a free option, other than a 1 week trial period.

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
11705 posts
Fri Jan-24-20 07:55 PM

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7. "I’m in this boat. I love Star Trek but I don’t have CBS Access"
In response to Reply # 1


          

  

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Walleye
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Thu Jan-23-20 08:08 PM

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4. "My wife is bonkers excited for it"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm not averse, but I didn't watch it growing up and this will be the first Star Trek series that I may actually watch in any sort of complete, systematic way.

In any event, I'm gonna watch it. I'm actually more curious to see how committed TNG fans react to it than anything.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Thu Jan-23-20 10:02 PM

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5. "Okay, the first episode is FUCKING fantastic."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-23-20 10:06 PM by stravinskian

          

A LOT of shit in there for the hardest of the hardcore Trek fans. Callbacks to isolated incidents and characters from major and minor episodes, quotes of musical themes going all the way back to the original series. We've been getting A LOT of hokey fan service from Star Trek lately. This is not that. The writers are the fans here.

But it's very much also modern, 'gritty', world-building, peak-streaming TV. I don't think you'd have to have seen a single episode of Star Trek to get into it. I'm obviously very biased, so I could be wrong about that.

The first episode of Discovery made me a little sad and embarrassed (though it eventually had its moments, and I think it's set up something great for next season). The first episode of Picard has exceeded my stratospheric expectations.

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
52160 posts
Fri Jan-24-20 12:05 AM

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6. "Yeah yo I'm excited"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

I think there was really solid world building going on here. I can't wait to see where this story goes.

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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Rockscissorspaper
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Sat Jan-25-20 11:00 PM

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8. "Good first ep, IMO"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Nothing mind blowing. Mostly set up for the rest of the season, obviously.

-----------------------------

HEY KIDS, (BUY MY) COMICS!! https://www.mythworldemedia.com/store

  

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go mack
Member since May 02nd 2008
3746 posts
Wed Jan-29-20 10:18 AM

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11. "RE: Picard"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'll wait for it to finish, do a 7 day trial and binge.

  

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Walleye
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Thu Jan-30-20 01:00 PM

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12. "This was fun as hell / dumb TNG questions"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I really liked it. In my view, sci-fi as a genre inherited a film/literature project that came more from westerns (like, cowboy shit - not "the west" as a cultural phenomenon) than from hardboiled/noir. The latter has an anthropology that fits more closely with my own in the sense that it has a Catholic view of the perfectibility of the human person rather than a Calvinist one - but that observation isn't a necessity. Nobody has to do it that way, and I've really enjoyed some of the exceptions, like Blade Runner.

This one is starting off structurally like noir. It's got a central mystery that really feels like it's going to pull the noir feint of not ending up as the actual mystery. And we've got a tired and (sorta) reluctant "detective" in Picard. That makes me really happy.

I have one dumb TNG question that I'm just going to ask here because I was embarrassed to ask my wife: was Data canonically different from all other synthetic beings in the series as well? or is that new information?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
52160 posts
Fri Jan-31-20 12:10 AM

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13. "RE: This was fun as hell / dumb TNG questions"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          


>
>I have one dumb TNG question that I'm just going to ask here
>because I was embarrassed to ask my wife: was Data canonically
>different from all other synthetic beings in the series as
>well? or is that new information?

Data was always considered unique. At the time, he was the most advanced synthetic lifeform in terms of his ability to learn and adapt to others around him (technically there were a few others who were his relatives but we can ignore them for now).

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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Walleye
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Fri Jan-31-20 10:24 AM

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14. "Thanks!"
In response to Reply # 13


          

That's heartening. I was curious how they'd deal with new viewers for a continuation (of sorts) for a series that had such a devoted following. Seems like they found a fluid way to do exactly enough exposition for a newbie like me. Not clunky (and was that Allison Pill?) and only the information that I need to follow the Picard plot without doing homework.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
52160 posts
Thu Feb-06-20 09:55 PM

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15. "Episode 3:"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-06-20 10:14 PM by Nopayne

  

          

Am I crazy or is Dr. Jurati a plant? How did she randomly show up with a disruptor?

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Fri Feb-07-20 05:27 PM

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16. "That was kinda weird."
In response to Reply # 15
Fri Feb-07-20 05:35 PM by stravinskian

          

Maybe the idea is it was dropped by one of the guys our heroes had just handled. That wouldn't really make sense, though, because it would mean she ran in to the fracas. I assume it was just a trope for comic effect, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they engaged in misdirection with some of the characters. They certainly did that with Discovery (for that reason I kinda doubt they'd do it here; but if the whole season is gonna be about the Tal Shiar...).

Great ep, though.

Speaking of plants: this might be obvious and it might just be a stylistic device. But there are flowers, especially orchids, all over the place in this show. Dahj/Soji's dad is an orchid expert (Bruce Maddox's new profession? Or do the people who Dahj and Soji consider their parents even exist?). Dahj has a variety named after her. There were some weird moving orchids in Dahj's apartment. Picard was arranging flowers before the doctor arrived. And then in ep 3, whatsername plucked something out of an orchid and smoked it. I think there were more examples I'm forgetting. Don't know if it means anything but I'm watching for it now.

Also, after we found out that Maddox is supposedly on "Freecloud" I'm sure I wasn't the only person to look up the lyrics to the Bowie song (Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud) to see if there might be clues in it about what's ahead. I imagine the reference is intentional. It looks like they're gonna meet their swordsman friend there, but I don't remember him having particularly wild eyes.

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
52160 posts
Sat Feb-08-20 09:55 PM

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17. "RE: That was kinda weird."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>Maybe the idea is it was dropped by one of the guys our
>heroes had just handled. That wouldn't really make sense,
>though, because it would mean she ran in to the fracas. I
>assume it was just a trope for comic effect, but I certainly
>wouldn't be surprised if they engaged in misdirection with
>some of the characters. They certainly did that with Discovery
>(for that reason I kinda doubt they'd do it here; but if the
>whole season is gonna be about the Tal Shiar...).
>
>Great ep, though.
>

They keep doing weird things and I can't decide if it's Discovery sloppiness or actual plot points lol. Another one was when Dahj got killed they made a point out of saying that there wasn't a trace of her body left iirc.


>Speaking of plants: this might be obvious and it might just be
>a stylistic device. But there are flowers, especially orchids,
>all over the place in this show. Dahj/Soji's dad is an orchid
>expert (Bruce Maddox's new profession? Or do the people who
>Dahj and Soji consider their parents even exist?). Dahj has a
>variety named after her. There were some weird moving orchids
>in Dahj's apartment. Picard was arranging flowers before the
>doctor arrived. And then in ep 3, whatsername plucked
>something out of an orchid and smoked it. I think there were
>more examples I'm forgetting. Don't know if it means anything
>but I'm watching for it now.

I haven't noticed the orchid motif but I'll definitely keep an eye out.



>
>Also, after we found out that Maddox is supposedly on
>"Freecloud" I'm sure I wasn't the only person to look up the
>lyrics to the Bowie song (Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud) to see
>if there might be clues in it about what's ahead. I imagine
>the reference is intentional. It looks like they're gonna meet
>their swordsman friend there, but I don't remember him having
>particularly wild eyes.
>

Maybe I misunderstood the preview for next week but I don't think we're going to get to see Feecloud just yet. We'll see!

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Fri Feb-21-20 05:36 PM

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18. "Spoiler:"
In response to Reply # 15


          


God dammit Aggie!

Even after you said it, I didn't see it coming. Especially after they showed us that they'd been together. Actually really strong writing. They let us (or at least me) think she was freaking out over the stress of the rescue operation, when in fact she was freaking out over what she'd have to do if the operation succeeds.

They'd put so much work into making her the "Ensign Tilly" of this show, which I guess she still might be. But the Commodore must have terrified her about something.

By the way, when they talk about the "Fenris rangers," I assume that's a reference to "Fenrir's wolf," or "the Fenris wolf," who in Norse mythology kills Odin at the end of the world. They're certainly setting up poor Soji to do something terrible. And either the rangers or the Romulans (Romulus and Remus were wolves in Roman mythology) to stop her. I hope it's not another "AI kills all the people" story, but I guess that's the assumption they intend for us to make.

  

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handle
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Wed Feb-26-20 02:31 PM

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19. "This show doesn't seem remotely in the TNG universe"
In response to Reply # 18


          

Picard himself is solid, everything else is pretty standard dystopian future stuff .

We're supposed to believe it devolved that quickly in 20 years?

I'm still watching - but it does not seem Star Trek at all to me.

------------
My prayers have been answered!

Gone
My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Fri Feb-28-20 05:24 PM

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21. "Point taken, but there's never been a very uniform "canon" in Star Trek."
In response to Reply # 19


          

Over the course of the TNG show, they went back and forth about six times on the question of whether there would even be such a thing as money in the 24th century.

At various points in the original series, TNG, and the TOS movies, they claimed there was no such thing as swearing in the 23rd or 24th centuries. They've completely changed that rule, but they started doing that all the way back in the Generations movie, if not earlier.

And definitely there's a lot of conflict and intrigue going on here that's pretty foreign to the TNG years. Supposedly Roddenberry tried to ban the TNG writers from ever suggesting any conflict or even forceful disagreement between starfleet characters. Any antagonism was supposed to be coming from outside the Federation. Obviously they didn't keep that practice up even through the first years of TNG.

And by the time DS9 started (the best of the Star Trek shows, as far as I'm concerned), the prevalence of Federation "bad guys" got A LOT stronger. We had the great Ben Sisko falsifying evidence to draw the Romulans into a war (one of the best Star Trek episodes, as far as I'm concerned), admirals imprisoning officers to hide their evil schemes, and even the appearance of "section 31", which they've now retconned all the way back to the "Enterprise" show. All this intrigue in the Picard show about a hidden Romulan running Starfleet Intelligence and hiding a secret plot is really just a variant of all those section 31 stories.

As for 20 years: 20 years it a lot of time. 20 years ago, today, is pre-9/11. Obviously American society (which the Federation was always meant to represent) has changed a lot since then -- in many ways for the worse. In the Star Trek canon, they've supposedly had two wars with massive civilian casualties, and an uprising of "synths" on Mars, again with massive civilian casualties, all along with the even bigger changes to Romulan society.

I'll give you the fact that the dystopian elements are pretty banal. Not really new even for Star Trek shows. But I think they're exploiting those tropes well, to tell a much richer story than they normally tend to tell, about loss, frailty, age, and exploitation. They couldn't really do that in TNG, with its episodic structure. I think they started to do something like that in DS9 and attempted to do it at times in Enterprise.

  

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handle
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Sun Mar-01-20 11:52 AM

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22. "You make good points, maybe I'm jsut tired of the same dystopia"
In response to Reply # 21


          

>I'll give you the fact that the dystopian elements are pretty
>banal. Not really new even for Star Trek shows. But I think
>they're exploiting those tropes well, to tell a much richer
>story than they normally tend to tell, about loss, frailty,
>age, and exploitation. They couldn't really do that in TNG,
>with its episodic structure. I think they started to do
>something like that in DS9 and attempted to do it at times in
>Enterprise.

I think the completely utopian Federation was the fantasy element I enjoyed the most.

At least this one is moving time in the forward direction more than not - that's my issue with Trek for the last 20 years - that they're behind where we started.

------------
My prayers have been answered!

Gone
My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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PG
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Wed Feb-26-20 04:36 PM

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20. "a.k.a. Everybody hates Jean Luc"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I've been enjoying it... Shimmy is not so into it and pointed out that it's a real downer cause everybody is mad at him the whole time.

  

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KingMonte
Member since Feb 13th 2006
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Thu Mar-05-20 05:37 AM

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23. "Episodes 6 & 7 though"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Thu Mar-05-20 07:51 PM

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24. "This show keeps getting better and better."
In response to Reply # 23


          

Not sure how I feel about what happened to Hugh, or the XB's. And I'm really getting tired of the slimy Zhat Vash siblings. The showdown between Elnor and Whatsername was embarrasingly melodramatic, but I got my hopes up that we'd be done with her as a character. On a more moderately critical note, I'm a little disappointed that Doctor Jurati got turned by something as narratively trivial as a mind meld. On the other hand it looks like the next episode will explore what she saw a lot more deeply.

But I'm willing to pick those nits because overall episode 7 was one of the most satisfying episodes of Star Trek I've ever seen. They gave Riker and Troi so much backstory, and they were able to spell it out in a way that didn't feel like a data dump. It all felt emotionally relevant.

Kestra was named after Troi's sister. A pretty obscure character only mentioned on one episode of TNG and one episode of DS9, but very emotionally relevant to Deanna. No idea if "Thad" was named after anyone. I don't know if I like the idea of people being named "Thad" in the 24th or 25th century. But I guess Riker's from Alaska.

Anyway everything with Kestra was great, particularly the stuff between her and Soji (though I'm not at all convinced Soji would be so okay with finding out her sister died, her parents didn't exist, and all of her memories from more than 3 years ago were fake).

The real star of the episode, though, was Deanna Troi. I wasn't expecting that. They'd made such a big deal out of the reunion with Riker (which was also great), that I thought Troi would just be some kind of appendage along for the ride.

But I'd been noticing, and all the episode reviews I'd seen had been starting to point out, how frequently the old-man Picard acts like an entitled piece of shit, with no apparent empathy for other people. The moment Troi called him out on his bizarre obliviousness to what Soji was going through, was the kind of Star Trek that we've never really seen before. And of course it had to be Troi who did it. Really Troi was a more essential character her than Riker. I never much liked the Troi character. Seemed like a very dated nineties thing to even think that the "ship's counselor" would be senior staff. But she was an important character in TNG and she's never been better than she was here.

The moment that Riker just immediately knows Soji is an android, that was pretty great too. Also, him yelling "Shields up!" or whatever analogous thing he said, just like the old days. That was obviously intended to excite old Trekkies like me, but it had its intended effect.

I'm a little shocked that we're down to the last three episodes, and we don't entirely know what the hell's going on yet. But that gives me the feeling these last three episodes are gonna be really damn good.

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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25. "Agreed, mostly"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

It was great to see Troi but Riker's interaction with Picard got me in the feels.

That said the Troi and Soji scene passed the Bechdel test so good job there, writers.

I thought the whole Riker family was great and I was scared to death that something terrible would happen.

Jurati still sucks though. She's gotta go.

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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Thu Mar-05-20 11:04 PM

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26. "Oh yeah and that sick bay scene."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

I couldn't stop laughing at how the "replicator" was literally just a 2020 era 3D printer. I don't know the exact model but it looked like this:

https://cdn03.plentymarkets.com/ioseuwg7moqp/item/images/23388/full/Flashforge-Adventurer3-Adventurer3-23388.jpg

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Mar-05-20 11:11 PM

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27. "Yeah someone mentioned that in an article a few weeks ago."
In response to Reply # 26


          


I think Dahj had the same model 'replicator,' but they never took as close a shot of it. I think it was an intentional Easter egg.

I think they made it too obvious in that scene though. I could see the ill-fitting plastic and it looked out of place.

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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Fri Mar-06-20 01:19 AM

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28. "Oh yeah I'm sure 100% intentional"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Still got a chuckle out of me.

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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rob
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29. "i really like the show (spls)"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

i feel like there's a lot of unnecessary collateral damage to characters that could use more building - icheb especially but even hugh. it feels like they're trying to get them out of the way for seven's arc but they're already plenty bastards enough.

the thad situation was worse - especially given how much loss troi has already dealt with in her immediate family.

the narrative tone overall though is something i appreciate though - especially if they let this setting/time period settle and breathe. none of the new chars are close to built out yet. and they already have discovery for going fast.

  

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calminvasion
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30. "Enjoying it, but moving too fast | TNG was so damn good"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Anything with Patrick Stewart as Jean-Luc ( not JL! ) Picard can get all my $$. I like the overall Arc, but it just seems like certain character motivations are confusing because they've not been given enough time to actually flesh them out. ( the entire ship crew specifically)

That said, the feels and joyful nostalgia has been wonderful. The character Picard has been my North Star as a leader, and no hyperbole as a man. Just an incredibly written and acted character. And the biggest thing this show has done, is get me to accelerate my TNG rewatching. I’ve already been doing it the last year or so on Netflix, but since Picard started I’ve picked it up. Typically watching 3 episodes a week. The moral compass of that show and the character in particular is timeless.

I just watched 4.21 The Drumhead this morning- scary how well it reflects our current times. Which TNG seems to do well pretty damn consistently.

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
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Tue Mar-24-20 11:21 AM

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34. "The Drumhead was/is a great episode"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

How that manage to extract so much out of a bottle episode I'm not smart enough to figure out.

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

  

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Nopayne
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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Thu Mar-19-20 04:04 PM

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31. "I'm actively tempering my expectations for the finale"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

There are two many open threads at this point for them to effectively wrap up the story at this point imo.

Best case scenario is we get a few well placed cliff hangers for season two.

Worst case is we get a shitty frenetic Discovery style finale.

Time will tell!

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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KingMonte
Member since Feb 13th 2006
4570 posts
Fri Mar-20-20 11:10 AM

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32. "Conceptually though, I like what it's saying"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

In a world where I'm forced to be part of facial recognition (that's already proven to be racist) and will soon be sharing the road with driverless cars (they ALREADY got bodies), humans are fucking idiots. This is chickens coming home to roost. Skynet on a galactic scale...unless it's some kind of orchestrated ploy by organic beings, which would be an interesting turn.

...but fuck all this involuntary AI integration.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Fri Mar-20-20 01:09 PM

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33. "I'm in it more for how they say it than what they say."
In response to Reply # 31


          

The old 'organics vs synths' trope is so worn out at this stage that I really wish they weren't taking it there. Though the question of where the Borg fits in that dichotomy is interesting and may give them some interesting things to do in the finale. (Obviously there's a reason the writers ended up crashing a cube onto the planet...)

As a story, part 1 of the finale was pretty subpar, I think. But the little things about how they did it made it really special for me. It actually got me reading about art history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_in_Arcadia_ego

and poetry

https://circleuncoiled.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/w-h-auden-et-in-arcadia-ego/

and thinking about life, death, time, decay, and creativity in entirely new ways. This is the core of the story and they've been setting it up masterfully, I think. When that first android went up to Picard and traced the wrinkles on his face it was a direct reference to the shepherd tracing the shadow on the Arcadian tombstone and discovering art.

Also, Patrick Stewart acted his ass off in this episode. He won't get any Emmy attention for this, because it's Star Trek and it's CBS All Access, but he should be a lock for a best actor win from this episode. I might have cried when he told Jurati that the tricorder was fine, and when he told the crew about his condition, and when he told Raffi he loved her too and then immediately ran off.

I was skeptical when Stewart said he didn't want to come back to Star Trek, but he couldn't turn down the outline that Chabon presented to him. At this point I believe him.

  

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handle
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Tue Mar-24-20 11:33 AM

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35. "I';m hoping the androids get turned to Borg"
In response to Reply # 31


          

And Seven gets control of them all. (And then kills every one in the sector.)

I'd also be trying to find Q.

------------
My prayers have been answered!

Gone
My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
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Thu Mar-26-20 05:23 PM

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36. "My thoughts on the finale. (spoilers obviously)"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Mar-26-20 05:30 PM by stravinskian

          

I've only watched it once so far. I'm sure my appraisal will change somewhat upon repeat viewings.

I don't normally say this or even notice it, but I don't think it ended as strongly as it started. I worry that I might come off like one of those insufferable "The Last Jedi" haters. But Star Trek is more important than Star Wars.

I still adored the season as a whole, and there were some things I genuinely appreciated in the finale, but it didn't deliver all of what I'd wanted it to deliver. Ironically, I think the problem is that it's now a multi-year series. Even though that was officially the plan from the beginning, and even though they were greenlit for season 2 before the first episode even aired... still, I was viewing it as something more like a miniseries than a full series. I wanted more finality.

It felt like the writers were dithering a bit on what the endgame would be, and they ended up with something that cheapened nearly all of their options. The idea of bringing in the irumodic syndrome from the TNG finale, and using it as a driving emotional (and logistical) center for all that followed, that was my favorite thing about how they conceptualized this series. And then they just threw it all away with the dumb "golem" thing. Picard sacrifices his life to save humanity! Then, lucky us, there was a golem right here (with conveniently unformed biological tissues) and a guy who knows something about transferring memories from a human brain! Nothing has to change. Jean Luc survives after all! And he's an android now. Sort of. He's a biological android, but he doesn't have any "special powers" like the others do. The body is the same as it ever was. We never have to mention ever again that he's now a "synth." He's still an old man. He's still gonna die, some day. The only thing that's different is they fixed his parietal lobe, magically took away the disease that he'd been coming to terms with this whole time. Does this mean they've now cured ALL diseases, even death itself? Sadly, no, because Bruce Maddox only built the one golem before he was killed. Dammit Aggie!

Wasn't there a classic Simpsons bit about everything comes back to normal at the end of every episode. I got the feeling here that everything was going back to normal, way too easily.

It reminds me of the end of Discovery season 2, when suddenly everyone decides (for some reason I don't even remember) "we will never talk about Michael Burnham or the Discovery or the spore drive or Control ever again."

There were so many different paths they could have taken. The three that were going through my head:

* Picard dies but Data is resurrected into the golem. From there on Captain Data leads a new crew (with Raffi, Rios, Elnor, and conveniently-pardoned Jurati as senior officers) in a new ship named in Picard's honor.

* Picard survives but still suffers from the irumodic syndrome. Season 2 (as a recurring side story) involves an even deeper exploration of his mental deterioration. Maybe there's a "new data," maybe not.

* Picard and Data are somehow 'merged' in the golem's consciousness (RIP Tuvix). The new character could be played by Stewart, Spiner, or someone else.

* The most satisfying ending would have probably been the most obvious one. Picard sacrifices himself for Soji, saves the universe, dies, the show continues (I guess) as the crew carries on in his name. This is what I thought was happening right up until he walked into the light. I honestly thought they were doing the afterlife scene really well. I will say, I'm GLAD it didn't go this particular way, because Patrick Stewart really was the best part of this show. So I'm glad we didn't lose him.

Anyway, I'm VERY glad Alton Soong didn't turn out to have been Lore all along. A lot of people seemed to be expecting that in reviews of episode 9. And I like the fact that they strongly implied, without outright saying, that it wasn't actually a super-advanced synthetic civilization they were contacting; it was just "Control" from Discovery. I guess they'll be able to explore that some more in Discovery season 3, which I'm now really looking forward to.

I'm a little disappointed that we didn't get to find out whether the Admonition was left by the Tkon empire, and more, that we didn't get to find out more about the Tkon empire. Maybe that'll be a part of what happens next season. Or maybe it was all just idle Trekkie hypothesizing. I rewatched The Last Outpost a few days ago. Shitty episode! But there's something romantic about a long-lost ancient society in Star Trek. I wish they did it more.

Despite all my quibbles (which are really almost entirely isolated to the golem thing), I still think this show has been as good as Star Trek has ever been. I'm looking forward to the next season, whenever it's safe again for an 80 year old man to spend long days on shooting sets. Thankfully, from what I understand, they finished all the filming for Discovery S3 before Coronavirus came along. That might be all the Star Trek we get for the next few years. But I'm looking forward to it. They're finally free of the shackles of prequelism and able to do big new things.


Oh, one last thing: "Blue Skies" is a dumb fucking tune. I'm glad we don't have to hear it again.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Thu Mar-26-20 08:08 PM

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37. "Ha, those Prospero lines from The Tempest."
In response to Reply # 36


          

I just rewatched it. Liked it a lot more the second time around. I think the first time through my annoyance at the lazy golem idea tainted my view.

I'm still not happy with a few aspects of the episode. But I can come back to my pattern of 'liking how they're saying it' making up for my quibbles with the story.

In particular, the closing got to me more this time than the first time. Those lines from The Tempest are hardly obscure, but I looked up the whole quote:

"
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
"

As Data died, they had Data, then Picard, then the whole room, melt 'into thin air.' (A phrase that Shakespeare invented here, BTW.)

Next episode of Star Trek on my list is Emergence, in which Data plays the part of Prospero and gets notes from Picard. It's one of my favorites (new Vertiform city!).

By the way, anyone who isn't following Patrick Stewart on instagram should know that he's been reading the sonnets, one each day, during the lockdown. Pretty great so far.

  

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rob
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Thu Mar-26-20 08:55 PM

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38. "just one watch here. i agree with your sentiments. "
In response to Reply # 37
Thu Mar-26-20 08:56 PM by rob

  

          

It bothers me that the Romulan characters and the millenium-spanning plot device ended up being really nothing. Narek and Narissa were involved in a couple horrible one liners too. Giving and receiving.

I think there was a way in which Lore could have been written into it that would have been satisfying. I love every Soong clan member that he's ever played but this just turned into a rehash of the dynamics with the Augments arc in Enterprise.

I was also hoping Picard would die as well at some points.

Ultimately I agree with you - they're really hemmed in by what Stewart and Spiner can and will do and what fans expect from them - but their best out could have had Jeri Ryan take over - she's been one of the better characters on the show but just doesn't get enough time/space to breathe. Her scenes with the Romulans were particularly bad because they were obviously just rushing to get to the climax - and then she had that scene with Rios and you'd never know she could totally relate to his captain issues. Missed opportunities. (I reserve judgement on the fingers entwining for future seasons.)

I agree about the golem. And I hate that they doubled-down on the lazy. Make him immortal or nearly so or even glitchy. Give him something to wrestle with.

The fleet actions also really bothered me - the fleet compositions were very very much not fucking Star Trek and it's not like ship models don't already exist. Scores of identical ships out of nowhere also don't make sense in the context of everything we know of Starfleet's mobilization capabilities from previous series and the whole first half of this season.

Riker was a nice touch - more with that family please. Zheng He was a fantastic name for the flagship. The writers definitely get referencing Star Trek lore and the kinds of things a historian/archaelogist like Picard would pay attention to.

  

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stravinskian
Member since Feb 24th 2003
12180 posts
Thu Mar-26-20 10:28 PM

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39. "Yeah I am SO tired of campy, scenery chewing villians."
In response to Reply # 38
Thu Mar-26-20 10:36 PM by stravinskian

          

I'd hoped they'd be limited to Discovery (and I worry they might constitute the entirety of the "Section 31" show, if/when that comes together).

I don't remember them doing much of that in TNG. The one case I can clearly remember is the original version of the Ferengi (the shitty episode I just mentioned, "The Last Outpost"). But they quickly learned it didn't work. I guess they did it in all the TNG movies (apart from, maybe, Generations). That's part of why they're all shitty, apart from First Contact where the scenery-chewing villain was the only weak point.

They're clearly setting up a lot to explore with Seven of Nine. And I agree, Jeri Ryan did fantastically well here. I don't know if she'll be in season 2 of Picard. I've seen some chatter that this might have been a long-form audition for maybe doing a series around her in the future. God knows how many Star Trek shows they're thinking about. (Weren't they also thinking about a show with Anson Mount and Rebecca Romijn? And I think that animated show is still moving along.) Maybe this is why I've been viewing Picard more like a mini-series. If they're really thinking about all these shows they can't be thinking about seven seasons of each of them.

I liked seeing Riker too. I should have known he'd lead the fleet when they showed him in the "previously on..." summary. I kinda hoped they'd find a way to sneak in Geordi or Worf, but then I might have complained about the fan service of it. Supposedly they're hoping to get them in next season.

I will say, seeing Riker leading the fleet, I was reminded of the later TOS movies, and all the jokes about how everyone had gotten fat. Real future-Picard looks better than the future-Picard from All Good Things. Real future-Riker does NOT look as good as the future-Riker from All Good Things. Good for him, enjoying all those pizzas.

  

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rob
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Fri Mar-27-20 12:05 AM

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40. "Fat Worf would be fun"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

I wonder if Dorn could be convinced to wear even more prosthetics.

  

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calminvasion
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Sat Mar-28-20 02:06 PM

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41. "Solid, not great. But my god Agnes is the worst"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

She’s badly written, but I also think the actress just isn’t very good. And especially when she seems to be setup as the comic relief in many instances, and it fell flat every time.

Really thought the last scene, with introducing the implied, out of nowhere, romantic link between Rafi and 7of9 + the reunion of rios and Agnes was a bad choice to end it. Could have left that out completely. The latter especially because the Rios/Agnes thing was probably the most poorly executed aspect of the season.

But looks like we are stuck with her for season 2.

On the bright side, I think the actress playing Soji and her different permutations was great.

I also think I appreciate how Patrick Stewart is playing this, with extreme vulnerability. But It’s still feels unsettling. But it’s 25-30 years later, and it really plays well on the theme of the finiteness of organic life and the inescapability of old age. To that point, I loved his facial expressions when the told him they didn’t upgrade or supercharge him in any way when they put him in the new body. As an aside, what a cyse that that was a one time thing and they can’t replicate that again and make it a more broadly available thing

  

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handle
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Sun Mar-29-20 08:40 PM

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42. "I think I pref Orville"
In response to Reply # 41


          

Almost everything about Picard seemed wrong - except for Picard himself.

And season 2 better have those sentient super advanced killing claws show up like the Borg did after Encounter at Farpoint.

------------
My prayers have been answered!

Gone
My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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