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Subject: "The Justice League discussion/spoilers post (Zack Snyder, 2017)" Previous topic | Next topic
bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Tue Nov-14-17 09:24 AM

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"The Justice League discussion/spoilers post (Zack Snyder, 2017)"


          

I don't hate this, but I don't love it.

This movie is a mess. It's a hybrid of Snyder, Whedon, and most of all studio mandated notes. Kevin Tsuijhara's 2-hour runtime mandate absolutely prevents this from being more than it could be.

This feels like a video game cutscene with all of your favorite superheroes doing cool poses, catchphrases, and no soul. Ninety percent of this movie has a look of a green screen background in the worst way possible. Also, Henry Cavill has an uncanny valley thing going on as they had to green screen his mustache off his face due to Mission: Impossible six.

All the connective tissue is missing. I literally did not give a shit about Cyborg and Aquaman. At least Cyborg they give you scenes with his dad that don't connect, but poor Aquaman gets a throwaway line from Mera for his whole backstory. I shit you not if you are not familiar with these characters, you are going to be lost. I'm still waiting to be introduced to Aquaman and Cyborg properly cause those Quicktime files in BvS are not a fucking introduction. And Atlantis looks like shit.

The plot just moves from one action set piece to the next. Steppenwolf is the most generic villain I've seen in a comic book movie with the most generic motivations. It's clear the set up for New Gods and Darkseid got axed.

There's barely a camaraderie built for this team. I never got why they would work together.

Batman is moving towards the traditional take on him (thank God), Wonder Woman looks bored most of the time, The Flash gives this movie some much-needed life, and Superman I'll save for last due to spoilers.

This is a step sideways for the DCEU. This is a film I never want to see again. There's some stuff that gives promise to the overall
DCEU that has me excited as well as future Flash, Batman, and Superman movies. And those two end credits scenes? I want to see those movies.

BvS launched the vilest fandom on Earth. Mostly composed of men thirty and older. Think about this, grown men getting mad that people actually hate a movie featuring children's characters.

This didn't make me mad more than make me indifferent for the two hours I was watching it. I mean it's better than BvS and Suicide Squad by default cause you gotta be trying really hard to make something that bad.

*SPOILERS*
Superman's resurrection is garbage. He's evil for five minutes then comes back to being good five minutes later. So sloppy.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
this is not surprising
Nov 14th 2017
1
And that's basically the entire movie.
Nov 14th 2017
2
Now there's an artist I haven't thought about in a while
Nov 14th 2017
3
      Be careful Robbie L is enjoying a resurgence in popularity
Nov 14th 2017
4
           he likes going at people on twitter and IG too
Nov 14th 2017
5
                Yo I've seen it
Nov 21st 2017
20
eh
Nov 17th 2017
6
Exceeded my (low) expectations
Nov 18th 2017
7
my 2nd favorite of the dceu
Nov 18th 2017
8
RE: my 2nd favorite of the dceu
Nov 19th 2017
10
RE: my 2nd favorite of the dceu
Nov 19th 2017
17
Wasn't bad. Wasn't good either
Nov 18th 2017
9
This shit couldn't even clear $100 million on opening weekend.
Nov 19th 2017
11
I'd hate to be a WB office tomorrow morning
Nov 19th 2017
13
      Kevin T gotta get fired now
Nov 19th 2017
14
           Run time mandate or corporate meddling?
Nov 19th 2017
15
                Both *links*
Nov 19th 2017
16
Dope. Very entertaining and a good jumping off point.
Nov 19th 2017
12
lol
Nov 20th 2017
18
I enjoyed it but I have no concrete reasons why
Nov 21st 2017
19
i knew what it was gon e going in, so i enjoyed it...
Nov 24th 2017
21
I enjoyed this
Nov 24th 2017
22
A breakdown on why JL's box office is bad business
Nov 25th 2017
23
This article was spot on...
Jan 28th 2018
32
not as bad as reviews make it out to be (i know i know but its true)
Nov 25th 2017
24
So, Coco wins the weekend. Is it safe to say JL is done domestically?
Nov 26th 2017
25
I got the sense that they made it primarily for international
Nov 27th 2017
26
Not as bad as Suicide Squad, not as good as BvS
Nov 27th 2017
27
Box Office Irony: 'Justice League' To Gross Less Than 'Man Of Steel'
Dec 04th 2017
28
What could've been. The OG script.
Dec 05th 2017
29
man, that sounds like a convoluted POS
Dec 05th 2017
30
      Honestly at this point, that's the DCEU M.O.
Dec 05th 2017
31
           It had some good bones though
Jan 28th 2018
33
Finally saw it a few days ago via Chinese buccaneering
Jan 28th 2018
34
"it's too dark"
Jan 29th 2018
35
      I've actually heard this argument many times
Jan 29th 2018
36

BigWorm
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Tue Nov-14-17 11:58 AM

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1. "this is not surprising"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I have a friend that I watch basically every superhero movie with at the theater. We were talking about this the other week and both of us were of the mind that we'd only go see it reluctantly.

So my feelings about this movie can be summed up by the last scene in Wonder Woman:

You know, in that last shot you see her leap out of a building in full costume. She has that ready for action battle pose mid-air, and the movie ends on that. I know it was supposed to be a badass way to end the movie, and I was maybe the only one in the theater laughing because I thought it was the corniest way possible. It reminded me of corny 90s comic book covers (mostly by Rob Leifeld) where the superheroes are in a battle stance leaping in the air for no real reason.

From the trailers, that's how the whole Justice League movie looks.

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Tue Nov-14-17 12:33 PM

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2. "And that's basically the entire movie."
In response to Reply # 1


          

I can totally get why fans would eat this movie up, but for everyone else this is some wait for HBO shit.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
10982 posts
Tue Nov-14-17 12:46 PM

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3. "Now there's an artist I haven't thought about in a while"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

And down the internet rabbit hole I go...

https://www.progressiveboink.com/2012/4/21/2960508/worst-rob-liefeld-drawings

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

  

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JiggysMyDayJob
Member since Jul 03rd 2002
5180 posts
Tue Nov-14-17 04:35 PM

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4. "Be careful Robbie L is enjoying a resurgence in popularity"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Not amongst most comic nerds who can never forget the travesty of his cover art (ok art period) but the casual fans that love his Deadpool and X-Force work. Since it's popping now, he's been blowing up lately.

sometimes u gotta leave ur inner nigger in the bank vault. - desus

Situation Podemy : www.situationpodemy.wordpress.com
itunes:https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/situation-podemy/id620232249
facebook: facebook.com/situationpodemy
@SituationPodemy

  

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RobOne4
Member since Jun 06th 2003
56697 posts
Tue Nov-14-17 08:12 PM

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5. "he likes going at people on twitter and IG too"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

talk shit about him and @ him in your post and he will come out like Candyman and try to flame you.

November 8th, 2005 The greatest night in the history of GD!

  

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JiggysMyDayJob
Member since Jul 03rd 2002
5180 posts
Tue Nov-21-17 06:14 PM

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20. "Yo I've seen it"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

I don't say shit cause I don't want to hurt ol' Robbie's feelings but, that dude goes hard if you mention his work sucking. His art is like Jim Lee's except it's drawn by someone with no depth perception and a affinity for breast(male and female)

sometimes u gotta leave ur inner nigger in the bank vault. - desus

Situation Podemy : www.situationpodemy.wordpress.com
itunes:https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/situation-podemy/id620232249
facebook: facebook.com/situationpodemy
@SituationPodemy

  

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Ceej
Member since Feb 16th 2006
66746 posts
Fri Nov-17-17 10:54 AM

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6. "eh"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Nov-17-17 10:55 AM by Ceej

  

          

Movie sucked

Flash was trying so hard to be Peter Parker

Superman sucked

http://i.imgur.com/vPqCzVU.jpg

  

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Marauder21
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49516 posts
Sat Nov-18-17 06:21 PM

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7. "Exceeded my (low) expectations"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Wasn't even too Snyderish for the most part, and I can't think of anyone who was miscast. I can't even complain about Ezra Miller's Flash, outside of that goofy ass suit. This was easily the best that Snyder has handled Superman as a character (in that he no longer seems to despise him.)

But the entire DCEU has a villain problem. Outside of Michael Shannon's Zod, they've all been cringeworthy (Leto's Joker) or extremely forgettable (everyone else.) It's understandable they don't want to burn someone like Darkseid in the first team-up movie, but Steppenwolf was a 2D cutout of a villain. Still, I at least consider this a step in the right direction for WB.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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sndesai1
Member since Feb 02nd 2013
1229 posts
Sat Nov-18-17 06:52 PM

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8. "my 2nd favorite of the dceu"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

still nothing special though

a little surprised critics are panning it this much...i thought it would be in the low 60s on rotten tomatoes

  

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xangeluvr
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Sun Nov-19-17 09:47 AM

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10. "RE: my 2nd favorite of the dceu"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>still nothing special though
>
>a little surprised critics are panning it this much...i
>thought it would be in the low 60s on rotten tomatoes

I'm surprised it isn't panned more. This crap was terrible.

GamerTag and PSN: PokeEmAll

  

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Scrapluv
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Sun Nov-19-17 11:48 PM

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17. "RE: my 2nd favorite of the dceu"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>still nothing special though
>
>a little surprised critics are panning it this much...i
>thought it would be in the low 60s on rotten tomatoes

I gave it a 6/10 and I felt like I was being very generous and forgiving. With the average critic rating being 5.3/10, I'm more surprised it's not nearer to BvS levels

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
10982 posts
Sat Nov-18-17 10:45 PM

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9. "Wasn't bad. Wasn't good either"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If DC/WB just wanted to be better than BvS, mission accomplished. But that seemed to be ALL they wanted to do. Tone shifted back and forth too often, villain was worthless, story was suspect. Still, there were jokes that worked despite the shifting tone and there was some fun to be had. But it was clunky, hacked together and painfully obvious.

The fact they have all their big guns in one movie and still couldn't make a better movie than a Marvel B-team member is alarming. I mentioned previously that WB scheduled themselves into a bad spot, and half of that seems true already. So far JL is tracking lower its opening weekend than Thor did, and I'm betting on it not having legs to try to make money until Star Wars drops and takes over everything else. If Coco does numbers over the Thanksgiving weekend, it could be a wrap

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Sun Nov-19-17 03:41 PM

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11. "This shit couldn't even clear $100 million on opening weekend."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Think about this, the most iconic and recognizable team in comics history can't make more than a Thor movie.

SMH.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
10982 posts
Sun Nov-19-17 04:07 PM

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13. "I'd hate to be a WB office tomorrow morning"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

Won't catch WW or Thor at this rate before end of the year. They will make a ton on merchandising, but that box office this time of year has to be too much to overcome

Now what?

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Sun Nov-19-17 04:29 PM

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14. "Kevin T gotta get fired now"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Has to...

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
10982 posts
Sun Nov-19-17 07:09 PM

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15. "Run time mandate or corporate meddling?"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Or combination of both?

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Sun Nov-19-17 07:49 PM

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16. "Both *links*"
In response to Reply # 15


          

http://collider.com/justice-league-runtime-budget-revealed/

And unrelated but still vital:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/brett-ratner-harassment-claims-turn-spotlight-friendship-warner-bros-ceo-kevin-tsujihara-1054906

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Case_One
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Sun Nov-19-17 03:55 PM

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12. "Dope. Very entertaining and a good jumping off point. "
In response to Reply # 0


          


.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

  

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ternary_star
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Mon Nov-20-17 12:16 AM

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18. "lol"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Never disappoint.

  

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Brother Grifter
Member since Apr 07th 2003
2118 posts
Tue Nov-21-17 04:17 PM

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19. "I enjoyed it but I have no concrete reasons why"
In response to Reply # 0


          

As a movie, I can't say it was good, but I also could see myself watching it whenever I'm channel surfing and come across it.

If anything, the heroes are acting like I would expect them to act, more or less and I get to see them do superhero stuff. Throw in a few chuckles, and I'm okay with what we have here.


I think it may be like how X-Men: First Class was for me. Low expectations, few iconic moments from beloved characters, and eas enough to wash out the bad taste from the previous movie.

  

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Calico
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Fri Nov-24-17 03:44 PM

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21. "i knew what it was gon e going in, so i enjoyed it..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Step was one note and wack

WW was cool, Batfleck was actually kinda cool.... Aquaman was cool if mostly one note..... Cyborg was growing... Flash was the goofy kid enamored byt this world he's just entered...

Supes was THAT dude....every action scene with him was great to me, bad CGI and all....

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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go mack
Member since May 02nd 2008
4020 posts
Fri Nov-24-17 09:53 PM

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22. "I enjoyed this"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I haven't seen Thor 3 yet so can't comment on that but this was pretty cool to me overall. Not as good as first Avengers but I think I might like this about the same as Age of Ultron maybe. Action scenes looking really cool was kinda enough for me. Thought Elfman's score was cool, especially the 89 Batman theme getting reused.

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Sat Nov-25-17 01:05 PM

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23. "A breakdown on why JL's box office is bad business"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2017/11/24/justice-league-disappointing-holiday-box-office-makes-any-fantastic-beasts-comparisons-moot/#5727c87848f5


NOV 24, 2017 @ 03:15 PM
61,392
'Justice League' Disappointing Holiday Box Office Makes Any 'Fantastic Beasts' Comparisons Moot

Mark Hughes , CONTRIBUTOR

I write about films, especially superhero films, & Hollywood.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.

The Thanksgiving holiday weekend is underway in earnest, and several films are vying for better positions at the box office as audiences choose between a slate of offerings with lots of family appeal. Holdovers Justice League, Thor: Ragnarok, and Wonder had to make way for Disney-Pixar's new animated release Coco as it continues to play higher than anticipated, at the expense of any second-place challenger. Which means Justice League's hopes for an upset victory or even a photo finish appear to be quickly vanishing, with Coco now on pace to take $75+ million and Justice League's totals being continuously revised downward, currently around $61+/- million.

While that's still a fine result for the weekend and represents an acceptable 53% decline from its opening weekend, there's a larger and more disturbing trend taking place through the holiday week and weekend that bode ill for Justice League's longterm prospects. And make no mistake, the distance between Coco and Justice League in five-day and three-day comparisons is not really very close if these numbers hold up, representing quite a different outcome than the toe-to-toe battle for first place many were predicting heading into the holiday.

Before I get started breaking down the numbers, a quick but important note is unfortunately necessary first. It's absurd to even have to remind you that I liked Justice League, gave it a good review, encouraged fans and mainstream audiences to not only see it but to also bring friends and family to see it too. I'm not an evil puppet trying to ruin things fans like, I'm not a secret paid ninja working for Disney (a common but ridiculous and childish conspiracy theory perpetuated by fans who accuse anyone saying bad things of being a spy), and I'm not discussing financial information and facts at a business news outlet for any other reason than the fact it's literally what we do here and a normal, honest thing that I'd be saying about any major blockbuster suffering this same situation while a large group of fans argue and deny what's happening.


I can like a movie and be hopeful as a fan that it does well, and I can hope fandom stops arguing and spreading negative behavior and tone amongst themselves or stop attacking media and other fans who have differing opinions, but when I sit down to do my job here, I have to look at the truth and the facts and then talk about them as best I can. The hope is that it explains what's going on, overcomes myths and falsehoods perpetuated on social media, by fans, and by some folks who feed on fans' hopes and wishes just to promote themselves or their claims. At this point, having a serious discussion about not only Justice League but also the DCEU, what might happen, and what maybe should happen requires being frank and realistic about the whole situation. As not just a writer but a fan and someone who loves cinema, I want -- and feel I must -- talk about all of these things openly and try to overcome blind spots or misleading perceptions that get in the way of useful, worthwhile discussion and understanding.

So enough of the qualifiers, then, because the math says what it says. Let's be very blunt and honest about what's happening: Justice League has the lowest domestic opening weekend of the entire DCEU, and the lowest domestic opening weekend of any live-action superhero movie in 2017 except Logan -- which, by the way, only fell $5 million shy of Justice League's domestic opening. Justice League also had the lowest domestic first Monday of the entire DCEU, and the lowest domestic first Monday of any live-action superhero film this year except Logan, which it only beat by a couple of million bucks.

Many fans trumpeted the film's domestic 41% rise on Tuesday, but that's a highly misleading and pointless argument for a few key reasons. First of all, 41% sounds like a big number, except the literal dollar amount was just $3 million, so let's not ignore the context in favor of big-sounding percentages that belie what's going on. Second, the reason for that jump on Tuesday is simply that North American schools began dismissing children for the Thanksgiving holiday starting Tuesday, and then each subsequent day of the week had a larger percentage of schools dismissing for the holiday as well. Notice, though, that the daily box office for the movie didn't continue to climb.

And that's where the story for Justice League is now really starting to become clear. You've probably heard some YouTubers and fans pointing to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them as a hopeful example of how Justice League is actually performing well -- so this story goes, anyway -- and has a chance to top $800 million worldwide. Beware false hopes, though, because the comparison was already deeply flawed to begin with, and now this weekend has shattered that wishful thinking.


Fantastic Beasts got an A grade from audiences, enjoyed overwhelmingly positive reviews, followed the wildly successful and beloved decade-plus Harry Potter franchise, and played against a Marvel movie (Doctor Strange) with less powerful legs than Justice League's competitor (Thor: Ragnarok) and a Disney film (Moana) that likewise didn't have quite the same marathon-run potential as this weekend's new Disney-Pixar release (Coco). Compare that to Justice League's B+ audience score, bad reviews, and following a DCEU that had a decidedly mixed reaction from audiences and critics, as well the aforementioned tougher competition at the box office. Right off the bat, then, you should be able to tell that any serious comparison between the two is hard to make.

Now look closer and notice that Fantastic Beasts, with all of those advantages, finished with an $814 million total at the global box office. That cume is significantly lower than Justice League realistically needs to make in order to avoid being yet another underperformer for the DCEU. It's lower than Wonder Woman and Batman v Superman, despite being the DCEU's big team-up movie that everything was building towards, despite the intention to launch other solo spinoff movies for Flash, Cyborg, and of course Aquaman (whose own solo outing is already finished and releases in 2018).

With roughly $750 million worldwide being the "break even" point for Justice League, a run equal to Fantastic Beasts would still only result in $64 million supposed "profit," which must then be split in half since theaters keep around 40-50% of global ticket sales. The remaining $32 million would then have to take out any backend point for the film's stars and filmmakers who had contracts guaranteeing a percentage of the box office. Let's be generous and take just $5 million for that backend column on the spreadsheet, leaving $27 million to be divided up among the film's investors and distributors. Remember the opening of the film, when you saw all of those various company logos? Yeah, they all get a slice of the dwindling $27 million pie.

If you think that's the sort of results major studios and investors find acceptable after spending years developing a project, waiting more than a year for it to be completed and released, and investing hundreds of millions of dollars to make it happen, then you need to think again.

But notice, we didn't adjust the Fantastic Beasts box office for a more honest and realistic expectation of where Justice League would wind up due to its A audience grade, bad reviews, and harder competition. Even if all of that resulted in just a 5% comedown from Fantastic Beasts' $814 million global performance, we are talking about a final cume in the range of $733 million worldwide. Now look back up at the previous paragraph's discussion of the "break even" point and profit margins, and tell me if anything jumps out at you. Remember, all I did was reduce the box office cume by 5% to account for worse reviews, an audience score two positions lower, and stronger competition at the box office.

You might still insist the folks predicting a potential Fantastic Beasts level performance are still correct, and that even a small profit is still a profit and thus mitigates how bad things turn out for Justice League. However, if the previous facts about difference between the films and the implications of such box office numbers didn't convince you of the more likely reality for the final outcome, then the next set of numbers will. Because despite continued insistence that Justice League is performing ahead of Fantastic Beasts, that entire premise came crashing down this week and weekend.

The opening domestic weekend indeed gave Justice League a big head start on Fantastic Beasts, but look at the subsequent domestic weekday totals, and you'll see that from Monday through Thursday, Justice League's cume for the four weekdays is just about $500,000 ahead of Fantastic Beasts for the same first weekday stretch. Then, over the second weekend, Justice League is on track to take $42-43 million, or a few million less than Fantastic Beasts' own second weekend. So Justice League's supposed pacing ahead of Fantastic Beasts will -- if things continue to proceed the way they have been this week and over the start of the holiday -- rest solely on its opening weekend, and it will lose ground until eventually the dollar advantage could wind up erased.

Obviously things could pick up again next week, and maybe it'll have a stronger hold on its third weekend, but at some point we need to stop saying "wait and see" and stop ignoring the math.

Yes, it's always technically possible that anything could happen in the future -- an asteroid could slam into Earth and make this all a moot point, or millions of fans could wake up today determined to rush to theaters en mass and buy up multiple tickets to push Justice League's box office higher just because they want to help the DCEU or just to try to prove the critics and box office pundits wrong. But more likely is that things turn out generally as expected, and that we are left having to admit Justice League isn't performing very well compared to how it needed to play.

What that means for the future, it's still too early to know. And of course, the foreign box office could wind up higher than expected, with stronger holds than expected. If Justice League can hold at 50% drops every week for the rest of its entire run, and if it remains in theaters for another two months, and if international receipts account for 70% of its worldwide cume instead of just 60-66%, then it's technically possible for the film to finish near $850 million. In other words, if everything stops going wrong and instead starts going as well as possible from now on, then the best-case scenario could get it to $850 million.

But that isn't going to happen, and there's little evidence to give anyone reason to expect it or hold out hope for it. The more realistic decent-case scenario (meaning an average run from here on out) would put Justice League at around $730+/- million, and it's entirely reasonable to feel such a number is possible and likely. However, I fear the truth is that the most likely moderate-case situation is a finish in the $700 million range, and a bad-but-not-worse-case in the $650 million range.

Those figures might seem outrageously low, and indeed they are, relative to the film we're talking about and where it needed and should've played financially; but they are based on more typical weekly declines for similar films as more competition comes out, based on the audience score and reviews. The true worst-case scenario, if you really want to know how bad it could be if the film begins to have steep drops for a couple of weeks and then plummets as Star Wars: The Last Jedi hits theaters, would be about $600-610 million, and make no mistake -- while being a worst-case, those figures are entirely within the realm of reasonable predictions based on the way things have turned out so far and compared to some past worst-case situations for certain DCEU releases.

Warner Bros. knew already that Justice League had problems, which is why it got new footage and reshoots this summer, and it's why they went into the opening nervous and largely hoping to mitigate the pain while hoping perhaps things could wind up better than expected. But they knew there was a danger -- indeed, a likelihood -- of underperformance, and while it looks likely to result in a loss, they knew this was possible.

The numbers are coming in worse than feared, and it seems obvious changes will now have to be made at the studio and with the plans going forward, but there's not going to be a stoppage of DC projects and the DCEU itself won't even be cancelled entirely at this point. Remember, Aquaman releases next year, and we'll get Wonder Woman sequels because the first film was too successful to ignore. Shazam! will probably happen too, and Batman is getting a solo series of films one way or another in the next few years. It's also likely that at least one or two other projects -- be it a Suicide Squad sequel, the Harley Quinn-Joker spinoff, or one of the "elseworld" banner projects -- will continue forward in the next several months and years. Yes, DC movies will keep right on coming, don't worry.

It's the context that's questionable, but even there, consider that despite my concern and my previous writeup about the danger to the DCEU's survival after the next few years, it's also possible that the studio and execs and board of directors will consider Justice League's failure the final unfortunate chapter from the initial planning stages of the DCEU, and that they already have a new set of superior plans and leadership in place to largely ignore the outcome for Justice League and focus on the upcoming projects without much change.

After all, Wonder Woman was really an example of the new approach and planning for the DCEU, even though its release puts it a bit out of order due to Justice League's extended development and production scheduling. If the two films could hypothetically swap places on the release calendar without changing their box office results, consider how it would look now -- Justice League represents the closing chapter of the first phase of the DCEU, and Wonder Woman launches the new phase with an entirely new plan and approach and leadership. In that scenario, things look much better for the future, yes? Well conceptually, that's sort of the reality of the situation right now, with regard to the general way the business plan for the DCEU is positioned. Aquaman likewise represents the new approach going forward, so its quality and success would in theory be another sign of having left behind the first rocky stages and getting much better footing.

The big question is, can a major studio business take a big enough step back and conceive of this nonlinear conceptualization of the DCEU model? Or is the ultimate reality that despite Wonder Woman's big success, Justice League will wind up too big of a letdown to ignore, with one standout home run being insufficient to convince a board of directors and major investors to keep everything and everyone in place while investing hundreds of millions more dollars to stay the course with some of their most valuable but now-tainted IPs?

Those international box office numbers will provide better evidence for us to predict which way things are going to land, but remember the studio receives a vastly smaller percentage of foreign ticket sales -- from 30% to 40%, being generous about it, depending on the particular market -- and so while it will boost the worldwide figures it doesn't move the needle anywhere near as much as domestic box office does. And also keep in mind that when the films keep underperforming, it depresses merchandising potential as well, and so the fact Justice League comes after Wonder Woman instead of beforehand could mean those excellent merchandising sales for the Amazon princess-warrior see a negative effect from Justice League, too.

I'll have more to say in the coming days and weeks, including an assessment of various ways I think the DCEU could best move forward. For now, however, we're left with another disappointing weekend when we really dig down into the numbers, and we must await more days and more numbers to tell what comes next

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
6379 posts
Sun Jan-28-18 04:32 PM

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32. "This article was spot on..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          


http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=dcfilm1117.htm


>https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2017/11/24/justice-league-disappointing-holiday-box-office-makes-any-fantastic-beasts-comparisons-moot/#5727c87848f5
>
>
>NOV 24, 2017 @ 03:15 PM
>61,392
>'Justice League' Disappointing Holiday Box Office Makes Any
>'Fantastic Beasts' Comparisons Moot
>
>Mark Hughes , CONTRIBUTOR
>
>I write about films, especially superhero films, & Hollywood.
>
>Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.
>
>The Thanksgiving holiday weekend is underway in earnest, and
>several films are vying for better positions at the box office
>as audiences choose between a slate of offerings with lots of
>family appeal. Holdovers Justice League, Thor: Ragnarok, and
>Wonder had to make way for Disney-Pixar's new animated release
>Coco as it continues to play higher than anticipated, at the
>expense of any second-place challenger. Which means Justice
>League's hopes for an upset victory or even a photo finish
>appear to be quickly vanishing, with Coco now on pace to take
>$75+ million and Justice League's totals being continuously
>revised downward, currently around $61+/- million.
>
>While that's still a fine result for the weekend and
>represents an acceptable 53% decline from its opening weekend,
>there's a larger and more disturbing trend taking place
>through the holiday week and weekend that bode ill for Justice
>League's longterm prospects. And make no mistake, the distance
>between Coco and Justice League in five-day and three-day
>comparisons is not really very close if these numbers hold up,
>representing quite a different outcome than the toe-to-toe
>battle for first place many were predicting heading into the
>holiday.
>
>Before I get started breaking down the numbers, a quick but
>important note is unfortunately necessary first. It's absurd
>to even have to remind you that I liked Justice League, gave
>it a good review, encouraged fans and mainstream audiences to
>not only see it but to also bring friends and family to see it
>too. I'm not an evil puppet trying to ruin things fans like,
>I'm not a secret paid ninja working for Disney (a common but
>ridiculous and childish conspiracy theory perpetuated by fans
>who accuse anyone saying bad things of being a spy), and I'm
>not discussing financial information and facts at a business
>news outlet for any other reason than the fact it's literally
>what we do here and a normal, honest thing that I'd be saying
>about any major blockbuster suffering this same situation
>while a large group of fans argue and deny what's happening.
>
>
>I can like a movie and be hopeful as a fan that it does well,
>and I can hope fandom stops arguing and spreading negative
>behavior and tone amongst themselves or stop attacking media
>and other fans who have differing opinions, but when I sit
>down to do my job here, I have to look at the truth and the
>facts and then talk about them as best I can. The hope is that
>it explains what's going on, overcomes myths and falsehoods
>perpetuated on social media, by fans, and by some folks who
>feed on fans' hopes and wishes just to promote themselves or
>their claims. At this point, having a serious discussion about
>not only Justice League but also the DCEU, what might happen,
>and what maybe should happen requires being frank and
>realistic about the whole situation. As not just a writer but
>a fan and someone who loves cinema, I want -- and feel I must
>-- talk about all of these things openly and try to overcome
>blind spots or misleading perceptions that get in the way of
>useful, worthwhile discussion and understanding.
>
>So enough of the qualifiers, then, because the math says what
>it says. Let's be very blunt and honest about what's
>happening: Justice League has the lowest domestic opening
>weekend of the entire DCEU, and the lowest domestic opening
>weekend of any live-action superhero movie in 2017 except
>Logan -- which, by the way, only fell $5 million shy of
>Justice League's domestic opening. Justice League also had the
>lowest domestic first Monday of the entire DCEU, and the
>lowest domestic first Monday of any live-action superhero film
>this year except Logan, which it only beat by a couple of
>million bucks.
>
>Many fans trumpeted the film's domestic 41% rise on Tuesday,
>but that's a highly misleading and pointless argument for a
>few key reasons. First of all, 41% sounds like a big number,
>except the literal dollar amount was just $3 million, so let's
>not ignore the context in favor of big-sounding percentages
>that belie what's going on. Second, the reason for that jump
>on Tuesday is simply that North American schools began
>dismissing children for the Thanksgiving holiday starting
>Tuesday, and then each subsequent day of the week had a larger
>percentage of schools dismissing for the holiday as well.
>Notice, though, that the daily box office for the movie didn't
>continue to climb.
>
>And that's where the story for Justice League is now really
>starting to become clear. You've probably heard some YouTubers
>and fans pointing to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
>as a hopeful example of how Justice League is actually
>performing well -- so this story goes, anyway -- and has a
>chance to top $800 million worldwide. Beware false hopes,
>though, because the comparison was already deeply flawed to
>begin with, and now this weekend has shattered that wishful
>thinking.
>
>
>Fantastic Beasts got an A grade from audiences, enjoyed
>overwhelmingly positive reviews, followed the wildly
>successful and beloved decade-plus Harry Potter franchise, and
>played against a Marvel movie (Doctor Strange) with less
>powerful legs than Justice League's competitor (Thor:
>Ragnarok) and a Disney film (Moana) that likewise didn't have
>quite the same marathon-run potential as this weekend's new
>Disney-Pixar release (Coco). Compare that to Justice League's
>B+ audience score, bad reviews, and following a DCEU that had
>a decidedly mixed reaction from audiences and critics, as well
>the aforementioned tougher competition at the box office.
>Right off the bat, then, you should be able to tell that any
>serious comparison between the two is hard to make.
>
>Now look closer and notice that Fantastic Beasts, with all of
>those advantages, finished with an $814 million total at the
>global box office. That cume is significantly lower than
>Justice League realistically needs to make in order to avoid
>being yet another underperformer for the DCEU. It's lower than
>Wonder Woman and Batman v Superman, despite being the DCEU's
>big team-up movie that everything was building towards,
>despite the intention to launch other solo spinoff movies for
>Flash, Cyborg, and of course Aquaman (whose own solo outing is
>already finished and releases in 2018).
>
>With roughly $750 million worldwide being the "break even"
>point for Justice League, a run equal to Fantastic Beasts
>would still only result in $64 million supposed "profit,"
>which must then be split in half since theaters keep around
>40-50% of global ticket sales. The remaining $32 million would
>then have to take out any backend point for the film's stars
>and filmmakers who had contracts guaranteeing a percentage of
>the box office. Let's be generous and take just $5 million for
>that backend column on the spreadsheet, leaving $27 million to
>be divided up among the film's investors and distributors.
>Remember the opening of the film, when you saw all of those
>various company logos? Yeah, they all get a slice of the
>dwindling $27 million pie.
>
>If you think that's the sort of results major studios and
>investors find acceptable after spending years developing a
>project, waiting more than a year for it to be completed and
>released, and investing hundreds of millions of dollars to
>make it happen, then you need to think again.
>
>But notice, we didn't adjust the Fantastic Beasts box office
>for a more honest and realistic expectation of where Justice
>League would wind up due to its A audience grade, bad reviews,
>and harder competition. Even if all of that resulted in just a
>5% comedown from Fantastic Beasts' $814 million global
>performance, we are talking about a final cume in the range of
>$733 million worldwide. Now look back up at the previous
>paragraph's discussion of the "break even" point and profit
>margins, and tell me if anything jumps out at you. Remember,
>all I did was reduce the box office cume by 5% to account for
>worse reviews, an audience score two positions lower, and
>stronger competition at the box office.
>
>You might still insist the folks predicting a potential
>Fantastic Beasts level performance are still correct, and that
>even a small profit is still a profit and thus mitigates how
>bad things turn out for Justice League. However, if the
>previous facts about difference between the films and the
>implications of such box office numbers didn't convince you of
>the more likely reality for the final outcome, then the next
>set of numbers will. Because despite continued insistence that
>Justice League is performing ahead of Fantastic Beasts, that
>entire premise came crashing down this week and weekend.
>
>The opening domestic weekend indeed gave Justice League a big
>head start on Fantastic Beasts, but look at the subsequent
>domestic weekday totals, and you'll see that from Monday
>through Thursday, Justice League's cume for the four weekdays
>is just about $500,000 ahead of Fantastic Beasts for the same
>first weekday stretch. Then, over the second weekend, Justice
>League is on track to take $42-43 million, or a few million
>less than Fantastic Beasts' own second weekend. So Justice
>League's supposed pacing ahead of Fantastic Beasts will -- if
>things continue to proceed the way they have been this week
>and over the start of the holiday -- rest solely on its
>opening weekend, and it will lose ground until eventually the
>dollar advantage could wind up erased.
>
>Obviously things could pick up again next week, and maybe
>it'll have a stronger hold on its third weekend, but at some
>point we need to stop saying "wait and see" and stop ignoring
>the math.
>
>Yes, it's always technically possible that anything could
>happen in the future -- an asteroid could slam into Earth and
>make this all a moot point, or millions of fans could wake up
>today determined to rush to theaters en mass and buy up
>multiple tickets to push Justice League's box office higher
>just because they want to help the DCEU or just to try to
>prove the critics and box office pundits wrong. But more
>likely is that things turn out generally as expected, and that
>we are left having to admit Justice League isn't performing
>very well compared to how it needed to play.
>
>What that means for the future, it's still too early to know.
>And of course, the foreign box office could wind up higher
>than expected, with stronger holds than expected. If Justice
>League can hold at 50% drops every week for the rest of its
>entire run, and if it remains in theaters for another two
>months, and if international receipts account for 70% of its
>worldwide cume instead of just 60-66%, then it's technically
>possible for the film to finish near $850 million. In other
>words, if everything stops going wrong and instead starts
>going as well as possible from now on, then the best-case
>scenario could get it to $850 million.
>
>But that isn't going to happen, and there's little evidence to
>give anyone reason to expect it or hold out hope for it. The
>more realistic decent-case scenario (meaning an average run
>from here on out) would put Justice League at around $730+/-
>million, and it's entirely reasonable to feel such a number is
>possible and likely. However, I fear the truth is that the
>most likely moderate-case situation is a finish in the $700
>million range, and a bad-but-not-worse-case in the $650
>million range.
>
>Those figures might seem outrageously low, and indeed they
>are, relative to the film we're talking about and where it
>needed and should've played financially; but they are based on
>more typical weekly declines for similar films as more
>competition comes out, based on the audience score and
>reviews. The true worst-case scenario, if you really want to
>know how bad it could be if the film begins to have steep
>drops for a couple of weeks and then plummets as Star Wars:
>The Last Jedi hits theaters, would be about $600-610 million,
>and make no mistake -- while being a worst-case, those figures
>are entirely within the realm of reasonable predictions based
>on the way things have turned out so far and compared to some
>past worst-case situations for certain DCEU releases.
>
>Warner Bros. knew already that Justice League had problems,
>which is why it got new footage and reshoots this summer, and
>it's why they went into the opening nervous and largely hoping
>to mitigate the pain while hoping perhaps things could wind up
>better than expected. But they knew there was a danger --
>indeed, a likelihood -- of underperformance, and while it
>looks likely to result in a loss, they knew this was
>possible.
>
>The numbers are coming in worse than feared, and it seems
>obvious changes will now have to be made at the studio and
>with the plans going forward, but there's not going to be a
>stoppage of DC projects and the DCEU itself won't even be
>cancelled entirely at this point. Remember, Aquaman releases
>next year, and we'll get Wonder Woman sequels because the
>first film was too successful to ignore. Shazam! will probably
>happen too, and Batman is getting a solo series of films one
>way or another in the next few years. It's also likely that at
>least one or two other projects -- be it a Suicide Squad
>sequel, the Harley Quinn-Joker spinoff, or one of the
>"elseworld" banner projects -- will continue forward in the
>next several months and years. Yes, DC movies will keep right
>on coming, don't worry.
>
>It's the context that's questionable, but even there, consider
>that despite my concern and my previous writeup about the
>danger to the DCEU's survival after the next few years, it's
>also possible that the studio and execs and board of directors
>will consider Justice League's failure the final unfortunate
>chapter from the initial planning stages of the DCEU, and that
>they already have a new set of superior plans and leadership
>in place to largely ignore the outcome for Justice League and
>focus on the upcoming projects without much change.
>
>After all, Wonder Woman was really an example of the new
>approach and planning for the DCEU, even though its release
>puts it a bit out of order due to Justice League's extended
>development and production scheduling. If the two films could
>hypothetically swap places on the release calendar without
>changing their box office results, consider how it would look
>now -- Justice League represents the closing chapter of the
>first phase of the DCEU, and Wonder Woman launches the new
>phase with an entirely new plan and approach and leadership.
>In that scenario, things look much better for the future, yes?
>Well conceptually, that's sort of the reality of the situation
>right now, with regard to the general way the business plan
>for the DCEU is positioned. Aquaman likewise represents the
>new approach going forward, so its quality and success would
>in theory be another sign of having left behind the first
>rocky stages and getting much better footing.
>
>The big question is, can a major studio business take a big
>enough step back and conceive of this nonlinear
>conceptualization of the DCEU model? Or is the ultimate
>reality that despite Wonder Woman's big success, Justice
>League will wind up too big of a letdown to ignore, with one
>standout home run being insufficient to convince a board of
>directors and major investors to keep everything and everyone
>in place while investing hundreds of millions more dollars to
>stay the course with some of their most valuable but
>now-tainted IPs?
>
>Those international box office numbers will provide better
>evidence for us to predict which way things are going to land,
>but remember the studio receives a vastly smaller percentage
>of foreign ticket sales -- from 30% to 40%, being generous
>about it, depending on the particular market -- and so while
>it will boost the worldwide figures it doesn't move the needle
>anywhere near as much as domestic box office does. And also
>keep in mind that when the films keep underperforming, it
>depresses merchandising potential as well, and so the fact
>Justice League comes after Wonder Woman instead of beforehand
>could mean those excellent merchandising sales for the Amazon
>princess-warrior see a negative effect from Justice League,
>too.
>
>I'll have more to say in the coming days and weeks, including
>an assessment of various ways I think the DCEU could best move
>forward. For now, however, we're left with another
>disappointing weekend when we really dig down into the
>numbers, and we must await more days and more numbers to tell
>what comes next

  

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araQual
Charter member
42162 posts
Sat Nov-25-17 08:17 PM

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24. "not as bad as reviews make it out to be (i know i know but its true)"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Nov-25-17 08:21 PM by araQual

  

          

a slightly better step in the right direction for DC.
we know it's a superhero team up film going in, so they're gonna pretty much rush through the new characters origin stories (that's what the solo films are for). we know they existed from the epic "quicktime files" that ppl love referencing lol. so i'm not mad at that.
i think everyone in this thing is pretty well cast.
Batfleck is giving us a Batman we haven't really seen portrayed on screen yet: aged and not giving much of a fuck.
Momoa's Aquaman was badass. his solo film is gonna crush it (i been a Momoa fan since Stargate: Atlantis, which is also funny considering). his chemistry with Bats should be explored further as they play well off each other (both actors are fairly quippy n funny, makes sense pairing em together).
Cyborg was definitely a grower. was played well, n gave us hints of his story resulting in a complicated r/ship with his dad. didn't need to expand on it. but suffice to say he was pretty integral to the team's success.
Flash has been portrayed many times, and while i didn't mind what they did with Barry here, the actual special fx of him running are handled better in the CW show than it was here (when he's running while he's accessing the speed force, it looks like he was slo-mo jogging, which kinda takes me out of the moment and that particular power). CW Barry's running has him moving his arms and legs ridiculously fast to match the speeds he's traveling. but that's a small nerdy gripe (it's hard to make a dude look cool while running fast, but CW did a better job).
Supes was obviously coming back. and i'm not sure he came back 'evil' for the brief scenes he was wrecking shop. the film follows the GoT checklist of resurrection by stating that 'you lose something' when you come back. so i didn't see it as 'evil Supes', just a disoriented god trying to find his footing & spark his memories. it's good to see him joking around a bit, seems like the group dynamic is what's going to turn around any negative opinion on Cavill's take. i always dug the animated series version of Supes, spesh when paired with Batman. Bats was always able to bring out the wry sarcastic humour out of Supes.

Steppenwolf. he's a villain. he destroys worlds. he DID namedrop Darkseid so at least they're still thinkin of using him down the line. but we've all been here. MANY times. it's a staple so it's never going to change. ah well.

look, i'm surprised i even enjoyed any of this, considering the iffy track record so far (MoS + WW aside). it could be cos of the Whedon influence that slightly tempered Snyder's cinematic voice (although the reasons that even happened was tragic as fuck) & added some jokes. i didn't really find the mix of tones jarring. god-like characters can't all be serious brooding loners. you live like a fucking god, you *should* develop a sense of humour. cos the stakes are never that serious lol (unless you're Bruce).

at this point, there is no competition with Marvel's run, or with their planning & execution of their cinematic universe. & i'm not a fanboy either way, just a film nerd judging from what's released. Marvel's vision came out of an understanding of their characters, and the ability to leave the world wide open enough to include anyone or anything. DC's entire cinematic run feels slapped together and not well-earned. like they threw everything at the wall in the hopes it would stick, ride that wave that Marvel set up.

i don't even wanna be one of those dudes saying "well, if they can make the NEXT one like this and this and this, they could still turn it around...!".
no.
other than an Aquaman solo joint?
there is no 'turning it around' anymore.
the tone and feel of this universe has already been established since MoS. i don't think much will change. and the only 'step in the right direction', and the only thing that'll keep bums in seats, are the characterisations of these beloved comic heroes. in that respect, forming the JL is the DCEU's best bet to continue limping on and (who knows) maybe pull off an out-and-out commercial and critical success down the line with a future JL movie (technically that's not me saying they'll 'turn it around', just that they can make a win using the formula they've already been working with).

V.

---
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https://soundcloud.com/confessionsofacurlymindredux
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DROkayplayer™

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
10982 posts
Sun Nov-26-17 04:30 PM

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25. "So, Coco wins the weekend. Is it safe to say JL is done domestically?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I do get that there are a lot of doom-and-gloom reports on this movie for a variety of reasons. But numbers don't lie. I think calling it a bomb is a bit much, but at the very least underperforming is how you have to look at this one. With the international box, it should break even, but turning a real profit? With your super team? With your holy trinity of superheros? Doesn't seem likely.

I really wish they could have changed the release date. Even with the faults the movie had (and there are many), it should have done better

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pretentious username
Member since Jun 18th 2010
12493 posts
Mon Nov-27-17 11:09 AM

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26. "I got the sense that they made it primarily for international"
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I'm not even copping pleas for them, cause it has under-performed, but the generic catchphrases made it seem obvious to me. Gotta be one of the easiest movies to translate to the international audience with little effort.

  

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pretentious username
Member since Jun 18th 2010
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Mon Nov-27-17 11:50 AM

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27. "Not as bad as Suicide Squad, not as good as BvS"
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although I judge BvS based on the director's cut so this is probably better than BvS theatrical version. Still not great though. They gave me no reason to care about Aquaman or Cyborg and unless you were already invested in the 3 established characters there was little here for you. The Flash was more endearing, but the jokes got a bit grating. I actually think if the ending was strong it could've saved the rest of the mistakes but the action at the end was a fucking mess and a half. Each catchphrase (most of which were in the trailers) made me roll my eyes.

One thing of note though: the family crowd seemed to love it. They even gave it a round of applause at the end. Had they made this PG (kinda surprised it wasn't) they might've pushed up those box office numbers.

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Mon Dec-04-17 01:02 PM

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28. "Box Office Irony: 'Justice League' To Gross Less Than 'Man Of Steel'"
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/01/the-grim-irony-of-justice-league-earning-less-than-man-of-steel/#85595d43c8e6

Scott Mendelson , CONTRIBUTOR
I cover the film industry.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.

For those who just came for the update, Justice League has ended its second week of domestic release with $180.759 million. The DC Films superhero team-up movie has made, in 14 days, just over/under what Captain America: Civil War earned in its first weekend ($179m), what Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice earned ($181m) in four days, what Man of Steel earned ($181m) in eight days and what Suicide Squad earned ($179m) in its first week. Depending on how it does this weekend, we're still looking at a domestic total over/under Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them ($234m).

Its overseas numbers had been comparatively better, but that just means it'll probably end up closer to $650 million global than $600m. And yeah, that's pretty awful all things considered, with the caveat that Warner Bros. looked at the film as a soft reboot and the start of something as opposed to a culminating chapter. Nonetheless, there is a cruel irony in all of this.

If you recall, Warner Bros. began on this path, with Man of Steel 2 becoming Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, after Man of Steel "only" made $668 million worldwide. And now Justice League will indeed struggle to match that global total while not coming anywhere close to the first Superman movie's $291m domestic cume. Again, I keep thinking back to The Matrix series.

The first Wachowski and Wachowski-directed sci-fi actioner earned $171 million domestic and $463m worldwide in the spring of 1999. At the time, it was WB's second-biggest global earner behind Twister ($494m). And four years later, The Matrix Reloaded was a prototypical breakout sequel, earning $134m in its Thurs-Sun debut. But audiences weren't super keen on the more philosophical and ponderous sequel and the legs were... short. Nonetheless, the film earned $281m domestic and $742m worldwide, setting records for an R-rated film.

Now money is money, but the poor reaction to The Matrix Reloaded gave way to a disastrous performance for The Matrix Revolutions just six months later. That trilogy capper earned $84 million in its Wed-Sun debut and flatlined almost immediately, earning $134m domestic and $421m worldwide. So, yes, in this case, part 3 actually made less than part 1 after the mega-grossing but super-divisive part 2 alienated general audiences.

It's not an exact comparison. Folks like The Matrix a lot more than Man of Steel (and for that matter, I'll defend both Matrix sequels unto death). But while Warner Bros. may have wanted a run closer to The Lord of the Rings trilogy, the Bourne series or the first three X-Men movies (up and up and up), they instead ended up with a series that both overtly peaked with the second chapter and ended on a major whimper like The Matrix or The Hangover.

And of course, The Matrix Revolutions (which still made nearly three times its budget in theatrical) was the end of a saga, Justice League was supposed to be the beginning of one. Through that prism, you can argue that WB and friends would have been better off just letting Zack Snyder make whatever movie he wanted to make. They could have merely offered this current underperformer as the end of a given chapter before the next wave of DC Films movies modeled more on Wonder Woman than Dawn of Justice.

In regards to that report over at The Wrap the other day which detailed the various post-Dawn of Justice struggles to get Justice League into theaters by mid-November, at the end of the day there wasn't a perfect solution. But, in hindsight, I would argue that the choice was either to delay Justice League and dump Zack Snyder right after Batman v Superman debuted to withering reviews and poor legs or just let Snyder make the movie he wanted to make with the full knowledge that this would be the end of the first arc of the DC Films story. But the error was in trying to have it both ways.

It's hard to imagine Snyder's preferred version doing any worse at the global box office, and I imagine a lot of money might have been saved without reshoots and recuts, to say nothing of a better reception with more polished special effects. So instead of a $200 million+ Justice League struggling to top $650m worldwide, you've got an alleged $250-$300m Justice League struggling to top $650m worldwide. And yeah, as shocking as it is in hindsight, we have a situation where the studio threw Batman into the Man of Steel sequel and turned it into a backdoor Justice League pilot only to now have a Justice League that will probably make less than Man of Steel.

The only thing more ironic than Wonder Woman outgrossing Justice League would be Man of Steel outgrossing Justice League, since that film's "meh" reception is what got this crazy ball rolling in the first place. Well, that and the skewed notion of the DC Films brand being saved, not by Batman and Superman, but by Wonder Woman and Aquaman. And yeah, Warner Bros. will end 2017 with two of the most outlandish whiffs (Justice League and King Arthur: Legend of the Sword) and two of the most jaw-droppingly buzzy hits (Wonder Woman and It) of the year.

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
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Tue Dec-05-17 10:05 AM

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29. "What could've been. The OG script."
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https://www.thewrap.com/justice-league-early-script-batman-wonder-woman-child-hawkman-will-beall-2011-suicide-squad/

The ‘Justice League’ That Might Have Been: We’ve Seen the Script (Exclusive)

No Aquaman, Batman and Wonder Woman’s child, and Superman enslaved by Darkseid — here’s the early “Justice League” script that never made it to the screen
Umberto Gonzalez | Last Updated: December 4, 2017 @ 5:22 PM

“Justice League” could have turned out very differently: In a 2011 draft of the film obtained by TheWrap, Batman and Wonder Woman have a son, Aquaman is nowhere in sight, Darkseid enslaves Superman, and Hawkman and Green Lantern team up in space.

The script, by “Gangster Squad” screenwriter Will Beall, nails the art of fan service. After a quick introduction on Darkseid’s hellish planet, Apokolips, we’re plunged into a stunning set piece between Batman, Superman, KGBeast, Killer Croc and Lex Luthor that includes a shark tank shattering on the upper floors of Lexcorp Tower in Metropolis. And it just gets more packed with heroes and villains from there.

Many fans have expressed disappointed in the version of “Justice League” that Joss Whedon had to rush into theaters last month after original director Zack Snyder had to bow out amidst family tragedy. (Here is the inside account of how it happened.)

ADVERTISING

Beall’s draft predated the current DC cinematic universe, which began with 2013’s “Man of Steel.” In fact, Beall wrote it a year before Christopher Nolan completed his Batman trilogy with “The Dark Knight Rises,” and before Disney’s Marvel released “The Avengers.” Its many Easter eggs, and world-spanning scope, feel in line with both “The Avengers” and Marvel’s “Guardians of the Galaxy.”


Here are a few highlights from the script:

Though Steppenwolf is the lead villain in this year’s “Justice League,” Beall’s draft would have made his boss, Darkseid, the master of evil. That opening shark-tank battle ends with Desaad, one of Darkseid’s minions, killing Killer Croc and stealing Kryptonite that Luthor has just tried to buy from KGBeast, aka Anatoli Knyazev. At one point, Croc bites a shark.
While 2016’s “Batman v Superman” would pit the heroes against each other, the 2011 script imagined them as allies who know each others’ identities and have coffee at Metropolis Diner, where they chat about other DC superheroes like Diana (Wonder Woman), Green Lantern, Green Arrow and Aquaman. They soon travel to Central City to recruit Barry Allen, aka The Flash.
Amanda Waller and King Faraday run the Department of Metahuman Affairs and seize Killer Croc’s body. We also meet Abel Terrant (Tattooed Man), Copperhead, Barbara Minerva (Cheetah) and Solomon Grundy. Waller and Croc eventually met in 2016’s “Suicide Squad.”
In deep space, Green Lantern John Stewart and Thanagarian Katar Hol, aka Hawkman, engage in a cool action sequence inside a space-station nightclub as they try to stop Kanjar Ro from helping Dessad weaponize the Kryptonite. The first act ends with Superman kidnapped by Steppenwolf and the Parademons and taken back to Apokolips.
By the start of the second act, Batman goes to Themyscira to recruit Diana, with whom he has a romantic history.
Barry Allen, Green Lantern John Stewart and Diana have a meeting with Wayne inside the Batcave, which has several generations of Batmobiles and Batsuits, as well as Mr. Freeze’s Cyro-Gun, the Scarecrow’s Mask, and The Penguin’s Umbrella.
John Stewart returns to OA (Green Lantern headquarters) and finds the dead bodies of his fellow Lanterns: Katma Tui, Kilowag, Guy Gardner, Salakk, and Tomar-Re. The entire Lantern Corps has been massacred by Darkseid.
With the Lantern Corps out of the way, Darkseid invades earth at the midpoint of the script — with help from a brainwashed Superman. As he does in Frank Miller’s “The Dark Knight Returns” and “Batman v Superman,” Wayne dons special armor to fight the Man of Steel. Diana manages to release Superman from Dessad’s mind control and Superman rejoins the League in the fight against Darkseid.
Superman goes through a Boom Tube and travels eleven years into the future to find that Darkseid has wiped out 80 percent of the Earth’s population. Diana leads the last of the human resistance with an aged and grey-haired Bruce Wayne as her second-in-command. They have a son named Clark Wayne, and one surprising member of the resistance is Lex Luthor.
The Future Batman leads a dozen fighters known as Batman’s Berzerkers. They include Slade Wilson (Deathstroke) George Harkness (Captain Boomerang), Helena Bertinelli (Huntress) and Barbera Minerva (Cheetah). Comics fans might also recognize this team as the members of Suicide Squad — though not exactly the Suicide Squad of last year’s film. The last of the resistance is headquartered inside Superman’s Fortress of Solitude.
Future Lex Luthor figures out a way to send Barry Allen back eleven years in time, partly using Darkseid’s Boom Tube. Future Flash goes back in time to before Darkseid’s invasion, and dies in younger self’s arms — after warning of the terrible future.
Diana, Bruce, Barry and Green Lantern travel to Apokolips and rescue Superman before Desaad can take over his mind, and the reunited Justice League battle Darkseid and his forces on Apokolips to stop the invasion of Earth. The entire Lantern Corps, along with the Amazons from Themyscira, join in the battle.
The script ends with Mercy Graves planning a presidential campaign for Lex Luthor and Luthor receiving a message from Future Luthor telling him of Superman’s secret identity: Clark Kent.
Warners has been accused of reacting to Marvel in the past, but had Beall’s script gone forward, Darkseid would have made his theatrical debut before Marvel’s somewhat similar Thanos, the villain of next year’s “Avengers: Infinity War.”


Beall’s script earned him a two-picture deal, and Variety reported that Ben Affleck considered directing it even before he signed on to play Batman for Zack Snyder.

In 2013, Bad Ass Digest cited sources who called the script “terrible,” an assessment with which we disagree. Nevertheless, Warner Bros. preferred Zack and Deborah Snyder’s version of the DC Universe, which led to the Justice League we have today.

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America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Tiger Woods
Member since Feb 15th 2004
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Tue Dec-05-17 10:14 AM

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30. "man, that sounds like a convoluted POS "
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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
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Tue Dec-05-17 10:20 AM

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31. "Honestly at this point, that's the DCEU M.O."
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Shit's a huge clusterfuck.

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
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Sun Jan-28-18 04:36 PM

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33. "It had some good bones though"
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Way too much for one flick, but they could have constructed plots on some of these elements to make a more cohesive universe.

  

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
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Sun Jan-28-18 05:19 PM

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34. "Finally saw it a few days ago via Chinese buccaneering"
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It was ok. I think my expectations were definitely diminished so it was hard to be disappointed.

A gigantic mistake to mandate a 2 hour run time. Cheats the story's ability to be properly told.

Origin story for Batman - discount triple check
Man of Steel gave a nuanced "before he became Superman" story that was effective
Wonder Woman - check

Because of the DC stories on TV, they could get away with not doing a complete Flash origin story, but Aquaman and Cyborg had NOTHING. I learned about Aquaman from an animated film, same about Cyborg.

This whole series of films was a rush job, so to suppose what they could have done differently leading up to this, and why BvS was such a hot ass mess is redundant at this point. HOWEVER, with this film alone:

Do a flashback for Cyborg, but eliminate Aquaman. It made absolutely no sense to bring Aquaman in before Green Lantern to fight a battle on land. The plot point of putting a mother box under water was unnecessary.

The Avengers functioned so well because they were fighting each other physically and verbally, and they were fractured, leading up to their final battle. Coulson's death was a unifying plot point. JL was all contrived, you can buy Barry being starstruck and just happy to be around, but Cyborg and Aquaman came on board too soon. Also, can't avoiding turning back to BvS, but Supes shouldn't have been killed so early. Made his resurrection the least compelling "surprise," maybe ever.

That this only took home $655 million underscores the importance of storytelling in film. Fuck the "it's too dark," plea cops I had to hear over and over and over. Tell a goddamn good story, develop the characters, flesh out each of their own internal conflict and limiting beliefs/philosophies, then show how they can work through these conflicts by contributing to the whole. The challenge with bringing DC properties to the big screen is making gods relatable and more human. With setting up each film as a domino for the ensemble production, they cheated everyone of the opportunity to connect and care about these characters.

  

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BigWorm
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Mon Jan-29-18 09:16 AM

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35. ""it's too dark" "
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Funny that this is one of the complaints I hear about the DC movies prior to BvS.

I actually didn't mind that part?

It's the bad story, bad dialogue and not so good FX that were the dealbeakers for me.

And yes Superman's "death" in BvS was so laughably unearned. After watching the movie, I'm sure approximately no one thought the character was actually dead.

I never really hear this as an argument, but IMO the reason the DCU isn't working is that they are trying to mimic the MCU, but at 10x Speed. I mean they were trying to go from Iron Man to Avengers in 3 movies instead of 6--I *guess* 4 if you count Suicide Squad, which I don't as it didn't set up anything for Justice League.

  

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
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Mon Jan-29-18 03:50 PM

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36. "I've actually heard this argument many times"
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>I never really hear this as an argument, but IMO the reason
>the DCU isn't working is that they are trying to mimic the
>MCU, but at 10x Speed. I mean they were trying to go from Iron
>Man to Avengers in 3 movies instead of 6--I *guess* 4 if you
>count Suicide Squad, which I don't as it didn't set up
>anything for Justice League.

I alluded to it in my last two lines, but essentially I agree and most non DC cult followers would agree. Everything is a setup to something else, rather than telling the best story possible. I mean those "files" Batman got a hold of in BvS to setup four other characters summed up D.C.'s M.O.

With great stories from the Super Friends in the SIXTIES, much less the JLA JLU series, it's ridiculous that with all that material, they couldn't tell stories better in film.

  

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