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>>The constant in
>>her surroundings was the sense of persistent danger. But
>when
>>the group arrived in Alexandria, that started to change.
>>Different characters experienced it at different speeds, but
>>everyone in Rick's group came around to the notion that they
>>were finally.... home.
>
>I rock with this except the characters did not change the way
>you describe. Rick found time to fuck, but he's still the same
>dude who beats people to death (remember his introduction to
>the people of Hilltop).
We saw Rick change. In prior seasons he became the "take no chances guy" then in the second half of this season he was on scouting missions with Daryl to recruit people to Alexandria. He was more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt (Jesus & Hilltop). Yes, he's still highly protective against threats (e.g., neck stabbing), but his first impressions of people are no longer "kill on sight". Look at what happened with Jesus... old Rick would have killed Jesus outright. THAT was his introduction to Hilltop.
Darryl and Michonne were some of the first people in the group to seek comfort in a safe haven. Gabriel, Carol and Morgan came around later. Enid came around too; while she wasn't part of Rick's original group, it was clear she was used to living in similarly constant danger.
>There's more evidence on the script
>of the OPPOSITE happening...the townspeople of Alexandria
>becoming militarized, etc.
I mean... are we watching the same thing? The original Alexandrians and Rick's group were living entirely different lives. They had electricity and walls, Rick's group had the Governor and cannibals. The whole 1.5 seasons of storyline has been about Rick teaching survival and Alexandria teaching Rick about stability.
Gabriel was the closest to an Alexandrian in Rick's group, because he was living in relative safety without needing to resort to violence. Him coming around (militarily) paralleled the shift for the Alexandrians.
>Only exception would be Abraham,
>but they made it more of a romantic thing then him feeling 'at
>home'
Thanks for mentioning this, because it highlights that comfort people feel when romantic relationships tend to happen. When Glenn met Maggie, there was an illusion of safety at the farm (as opposed to camping in the woods and a blown up CDC). With Abraham, Rick and Carol, they found romance when they weren't in constant threat of running for their lives.
Did you seriously want every single character to have an explicit line of dialogue saying "I'm safe! I'm home!" What happened to "show, don't tell"? Different characters experienced safety in different ways.
>This was clunkily handled though; you have a character that
>murdered two children no problem, who's witnessed tons of
>death, who also previously terrorized kids to 'toughen then
>up' (who also subsequently died violently) with no remorse,
>lol.
Context matters. And she didn't kill both, Carol killed one when she saw her KILL HER OWN SISTER.
And again, like we both agree, Carol's gone through the most change. She was a different person and in a different environment when those killings occurred, correct? The same is true when she's been living in tranquility for months, which is an eternity in zombie apocalypse time. Different person, different environment.
> Even with her mourning Sam it was hard to feel connected
>(like you point out this could be because of the shit
>writing/directing).
Probably because Sam was written to be a whiny shit. It's fine to disdain him when we're on the outside looking in, but I'm willing to accept at face value the possibility of a kid scared to come down the stairs. We didn't mourn Sam because *we* didn't care about Sam, but just because *we* don't mourn him doesn't mean we should discount when Carol clearly does.
However, and please correct me if I am
>wrong, I remember there was a good period of time between
>Sam's death and her 'conversion' with Morgan.
Agreed on the period of time. Disagree on Morgan "converting" her.
When the Wolves were resolved, several weeks/months passed, bringing us into the start of the second half of the season.
Morgan never converted her, even apparently until the very end when he killed someone. He wanted to talk to her, she wouldn't let him, remember? She came on her feelings of her own accord (the kill journal, the cookies, the rosary, the Saviors she killed, Tobin, etc.).
Remember she
>was absolute in her feelings enough where they were having an
>all and out brawl during the period that you are saying she
>was mourning Sam.
Brawl = first half of season
Several weeks of tranquility = season break
Mourning Sam = second half of season
The timeline makes sense. She was absolute in her feelings in the first half, then long period of safety and reflection, then change in feelings and character. Not sure how much more clear I can get than that.
>She was already 'good' Carol by the time the Savior raid
>happened though hence her hesitation at the raid before hand.
Agreed, she was "good" Carol at the start of the second season.
>And they weren't really humanized; all the other savior run
>ins made them look like assholes which is why Rick was able to
>convince them. The savior massacre was less about humanizing
>the Saviors(hence the baseball bat torture pictures) but more
>to ask the audience "is cold blooded murder cool?" "Even if
>they are 'assholes'?"
Disagree vehemently. There were several scenes in the Maggie/Carol episode that devoted time to give color to their Savior captors. I'm going to requote myself from post #79:
"Note that each captor was humanized with some glimpse into their backstory. They weren't aimless killers like the Wolves, they were normal people hardened by their environment. I think it was purposeful that the captors didn't do much to Carol and Maggie outside of hollow threats, yet they were still brutally slaughtered to a man."
As far as the torture pictures, yeah, that's one guy with those pictures. It's a big group, there are bound to be a couple assholes (in this case, including the leader). Remember Merle? He wasn't exactly the picture of positivity himself, and he was part of the group for a long time. But just because there are assholes doesn't mean the whole group is. The redheaded chick that Carol pushed into zombies seemed entirely reasonable. Same thing with smoky chick that got eaten. The whole point of TWD is exploring that grey area morality, which this season has done extremely well. Imagine if the show was from the perspective of the Saviors this whole time...
>>to Rick's group that they were survivors themselves. Carol
>>saw this, thus deepening the guilt she felt when she had to
>>kill to protect those she cared about.
>
>Conjecture your honor. Not in the script, lol.
Silly sarcasm. Show, don't tell, remember? Are we supposed to applaud the writing if Carol says "I hate myself!!!" every time she murders someone she has to, to survive? That would be really fucking lame. There's a reason why they showed close ups of the rosary. Why they showed her writing names (and numbers) in a journal. Why she told Daryl she couldn't do this anymore. Why Carol is flooded in tears before she blasts all those dudes (hint: she's crying for multiple reasons).
Seriously, are we watching the same show? I get that people are all up in arms Carol is getting "sawft" because she's a fan favorite, but does it also make people blind to what is actually happening on screen? Again, divest who you think Carol *should* be with who she actually *is*.
>He was more then a symbol. Again, pre Morgan confrontation
>she was 100% "I will not hestitate to kill my loved ones".
>Post Morgan confrontation, totally different character.
I addressed this above and gave multiple reasons. Morgan didn't convert her, she experienced the change herself. She didn't even give Morgan the time of day. IIRC, there was never a hint they spoke after the brief encounter at Sam's grave until the time Morgan started chasing after her. In the interim, Carol went through a LOT of shit to reinforce the change in her character during the season break.
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