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Subject: "Ex Machina (Garland, 2015)" Previous topic | Next topic
SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Fri Oct-31-14 12:07 AM

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"Ex Machina (Garland, 2015)"


          

First trailer for the directorial debut from Alex Garland (28 Days Later, Sunshine). I'm in for this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-HiQ9K2uf4

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: visuals look dope
Oct 31st 2014
1
Oscar Isaac is Guatemalan-Cuban
Nov 02nd 2014
3
      After watching Isaac's in A Most Violent Year I'm in
Apr 19th 2015
6
at first I thought this was an adaptation of the comic book
Nov 01st 2014
2
Really strong directorial debut.
Apr 17th 2015
4
loved almost every beat
Apr 19th 2015
5
Loved it! Definitely worth checking out.
Apr 20th 2015
7
Saw it last night. Totally enjoyed it. Worth a watch. n/m
Apr 22nd 2015
8
Dope date/stoner flick
Apr 25th 2015
9
RE: Ex Machina (Garland, 2015)
Apr 26th 2015
10
A noir disguised as a sci-fi thriller. Really dope.
Apr 26th 2015
11
damn good movie. Oscar Isaac sure does pick some great roles
Apr 27th 2015
12
its was great IMO
Apr 27th 2015
13
This was ass cheeks. No likey.
Apr 27th 2015
14
Would you fuck Kyoko though?
Apr 28th 2015
15
I'm black.
Apr 29th 2015
20
it was not good
May 04th 2015
27
I was pretty bored through most of it
Apr 28th 2015
16
thats the thing dork boy should've trusted him
Apr 29th 2015
17
      I'm just saying there wasn't a genuine feeling of dread or unease
Apr 29th 2015
18
      fair enough
Apr 29th 2015
22
      I watched the whole movie wanting to be friends with the villain
Apr 29th 2015
24
           RE: I watched the whole movie wanting to be friends with the villain
May 05th 2015
31
           Heaven, you need a hug
May 05th 2015
32
                RE: Heaven, you need a hug
May 06th 2015
34
           This is actually part of what I loved about the movie.
May 05th 2015
33
                Nah, we're supposed to empathize with Donny Dweeb.
May 10th 2015
37
                     I respectfully disagree with your take entirely.
May 10th 2015
40
      Worst decision was Isaac being a nice boss, inviting that loser over
Apr 29th 2015
19
           wamp wamp, he wasn't a nice boss though, he was a manipulative asshole
Apr 29th 2015
21
                He wasn't "manipulative." And barely an asshole.
Apr 29th 2015
23
                     RE: yes he was.
Apr 30th 2015
25
that's a movie that really made me think. until 5 minutes later
May 04th 2015
26
You weren't touched by dorkboy's relationship with the robot?
May 04th 2015
28
it was so transparent
May 04th 2015
29
Yep
Dec 27th 2015
56
not bad but not great.
May 05th 2015
30
Agreed
Dec 27th 2015
55
wait! this just turned into the most interesting movie ever (SPOILER)
Dec 27th 2015
57
      This is great. Now I need to understand why she
Dec 27th 2015
58
      film's reception wasn't lukwarm
Dec 28th 2015
62
           Okay it was stifled...
Dec 28th 2015
67
                meh
Jan 02nd 2016
73
      I absolutely read the ending this way.
Dec 27th 2015
59
      Wow awesome.
Dec 28th 2015
61
      great read. thanks for sharing L
Dec 28th 2015
63
      still trash! if it wasn't in the movie, I'm not imagining it in later.
Dec 28th 2015
64
      it's literally in the movie
Dec 28th 2015
65
      except it isn't
Dec 28th 2015
66
           Ava left Caleb to rot.
Dec 29th 2015
68
                it doesn't beg the question because that's not what that means
Dec 29th 2015
69
                     The movie is being discussed in philosophy of mind classes.
Dec 29th 2015
70
                          i really need you to chill on philosophy
Jan 02nd 2016
71
                               I've been reading modern philosophy since I was 16.
Jan 02nd 2016
74
                                    oh, they said the nammmessss!!!!!
Jan 02nd 2016
75
                                    No one believes you, bye
Jan 02nd 2016
76
      hrm
Jan 02nd 2016
72
      I got themes of pedophelia watching Ex Machina.
Feb 10th 2016
88
      re-reading this now....makes me appreciate the film more.
Sep 23rd 2018
100
I like how the movie and title kinda work on multiple levels
May 10th 2015
35
The audience wasn't manipulated
May 10th 2015
36
      right? im still ride or die for johnny 5
May 10th 2015
38
      stop being mad. Most like/love the movie
May 10th 2015
39
      Agree to disagree n/m
May 11th 2015
41
This movie was Smart Dumb. Ended on that Come'on Son!
May 11th 2015
42
It was a bizarre situation though.
Dec 14th 2015
52
I liked it...
May 15th 2015
43
RE: Ex Machina (Garland, 2015)
May 15th 2015
44
finally saw this, enjoyed it!
May 16th 2015
45
The plot holes were a bit unsettling, but I enjoyed it. B-.
May 17th 2015
46
I'm about to tear up the fucking dance dude, check it out
May 18th 2015
47
One of the scenes of the year
Dec 14th 2015
51
yea that part was hilarious. didn't see that coming at all. nm
Dec 27th 2015
60
This is a masterpiece.
Oct 27th 2015
48
i loved it and also this
Oct 27th 2015
49
Thoughts.....
Oct 27th 2015
50
Oscar Isaac is amazing
Dec 14th 2015
53
Fanfuckingtastic ending!!! Loved this.
Dec 14th 2015
54
This is a very good read:
Jan 02nd 2016
77
My favourite part:
Jan 03rd 2016
78
Insecure nerds, unite in lauding this doggie poo!
Jan 03rd 2016
79
finally saw this...
Jan 31st 2016
80
would've benefited from a more violent ending
Feb 09th 2016
81
That would have ruined it.
Feb 09th 2016
82
      100% cosign this.
Feb 09th 2016
83
           I third this
Feb 09th 2016
84
                congrats, you're all wrong
Feb 10th 2016
85
                     For many people, killing is a strong enough moment.
Feb 10th 2016
86
                     I disagree strongly with everything about your take.
Feb 10th 2016
87
                     I saw it as her not needing to pass the turing test anymore
Feb 10th 2016
89
                     I agree with this take.
Feb 10th 2016
90
                          enjoy your scones and vanilla chai lattes, guys
Feb 11th 2016
92
                               Terrible comparison, worse rationale.
Feb 11th 2016
93
                               *sigh*
Apr 24th 2016
97
                     The movie is a critique of AI philosophy though.
Feb 10th 2016
91
                     Thats not how this works
Apr 24th 2016
96
brilliant flick
Apr 17th 2016
94
Great movie experience
Apr 18th 2016
95
ah, classic PTP thread
Sep 19th 2018
98
RE: ah, classic PTP thread
Sep 23rd 2018
99

astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Fri Oct-31-14 11:38 AM

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1. "RE: visuals look dope"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so i'll be there for that

the story may be too "bottle episode" of a tv series, and the theme seems to be another rumination on AI interacting with humans with the subtext on of ethics and sexuality of that interaction, YAWN...

and jesus, it's 2014 can we please put brown people in the future, AS THE FOCUS

  

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mrshow
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Sun Nov-02-14 03:04 AM

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3. "Oscar Isaac is Guatemalan-Cuban"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Not sure what his character's background is though.



>so i'll be there for that
>
>the story may be too "bottle episode" of a tv series, and the
>theme seems to be another rumination on AI interacting with
>humans with the subtext on of ethics and sexuality of that
>interaction, YAWN...
>
>and jesus, it's 2014 can we please put brown people in the
>future, AS THE FOCUS

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Sun Apr-19-15 10:44 PM

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6. "After watching Isaac's in A Most Violent Year I'm in"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

w/o hesitation

  

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BigWorm
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Sat Nov-01-14 11:49 PM

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2. "at first I thought this was an adaptation of the comic book"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This looks way better though...

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Fri Apr-17-15 12:28 AM

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4. "Really strong directorial debut."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Kept me guessing throughout as it smartly dispersed all of its clues slowly. You know something is awry here, and you'll go back and forth on where you think the film is headed.

Isaac is simply one of our best living actors. And Vikander, so terrific in everything she's in, does terrific robotic work here.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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ternary_star
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5. "loved almost every beat"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

first things first, i want to live in that house. got damn that thing was beautiful.

just when you thought the concept of A.I.-gone-amuck was fucked out, we get a smart, beautiful, patient study from a first-time director. loved the unsettling serenity of this thing. and the slow burn fully paid off with a satisfyingly disturbing ending.

amazing special effects that were just flashy enough to support the story. great performances by all three leads (still hard to believe this is the dude from A Most Violent Year). *fantastic* production design (yo...that crib!).

this is the type of Black Mirror-ish sci-fi i could watch all day and i wish we got more of. so damn good.

  

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DeadMike
Member since Jan 28th 2005
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Mon Apr-20-15 02:00 PM

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7. "Loved it! Definitely worth checking out."
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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Cornbread
Member since Jul 21st 2006
1111 posts
Wed Apr-22-15 12:30 PM

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8. "Saw it last night. Totally enjoyed it. Worth a watch. n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*America's Favorite*

  

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jigga
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9. "Dope date/stoner flick"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Flash80
Member since Jan 03rd 2007
6953 posts
Sun Apr-26-15 11:39 AM

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10. "RE: Ex Machina (Garland, 2015)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

saw it yesterday..

*spoiler*



caleb got GOT. didn't see that one coming from ava. my feminist g/f grinned though.

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Sun Apr-26-15 06:42 PM

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11. "A noir disguised as a sci-fi thriller. Really dope."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And there is a feminist angle that one can see if they're willing to look.

Oscar Isaac was very good, as was Alicia Vikander.

Really solid stuff.

________________________________________________________________________________
It takes two.

  

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Mgmt
Member since Feb 17th 2005
21268 posts
Mon Apr-27-15 08:54 AM

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12. "damn good movie. Oscar Isaac sure does pick some great roles"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Mon Apr-27-15 11:47 AM

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13. "its was great IMO"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

really moody and well acted, some nice ideas about tech and people, minimal yet evocative, and an excellent ending

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52781 posts
Mon Apr-27-15 11:38 PM

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14. "This was ass cheeks. No likey."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


These AI "thought" movies just can't seem to get it right

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Deebot
Member since Oct 21st 2004
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Tue Apr-28-15 10:14 PM

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15. "Would you fuck Kyoko though?"
In response to Reply # 14


          

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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20. "I'm black. "
In response to Reply # 15
Wed Apr-29-15 07:48 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          

I don't do an immediate backflip at the sight of an
asian woman

Barely noticed her, quite honestly


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Rjcc
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27. "it was not good"
In response to Reply # 14


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Deebot
Member since Oct 21st 2004
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Tue Apr-28-15 10:26 PM

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16. "I was pretty bored through most of it"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Some interesting dialogue and visuals, not much else. No real suspense. The played out "don't trust him!" angle wasn't good enough.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Wed Apr-29-15 12:12 AM

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17. "thats the thing dork boy should've trusted him"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

.

  

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Deebot
Member since Oct 21st 2004
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18. "I'm just saying there wasn't a genuine feeling of dread or unease"
In response to Reply # 17


          

enough to actually generate some suspense or something to keep me engaged. Isaac's character wasn't very threatening to me, and I didn't give a shit about what might happen to dorkboy. The robot was cool and well-acted, but my interest in her even started to wear off after the first few sessions.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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22. "fair enough"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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24. "I watched the whole movie wanting to be friends with the villain"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          


Like, the "villain" was the solidest, nicest person
in the whole movie

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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81 DUN
Member since Feb 10th 2009
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Tue May-05-15 05:29 PM

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31. "RE: I watched the whole movie wanting to be friends with the villain"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

don't worry you'll find a real life friend one day.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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32. "Heaven, you need a hug"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          


You stinky wimp

So sad

  

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81 DUN
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34. "RE: Heaven, you need a hug"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

I'm sorry for being an asshole to you. I'm gonna help you get some friends. My conscience was fucking with me.

  

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Frank Longo
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33. "This is actually part of what I loved about the movie."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

I spent much of the film feeling like the villain was cooler, smarter, and generally a better dude than our "hero." Part of what intrigued me. Isaac is one of the best actors alive, and I don't know whether to credit him or the writing more, but every move he made had me feeling like the robot's desire to turn me against him was more malevolent than it seemed on the surface.

It's a movie where the layman is probably the "worst" guy in the film.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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Orbit_Established
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37. "Nah, we're supposed to empathize with Donny Dweeb. "
In response to Reply # 33
Sun May-10-15 10:20 AM by Orbit_Established

  

          



We don't, and it's a flaw.

The movie was ass.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Frank Longo
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40. "I respectfully disagree with your take entirely."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Do your thing, though.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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Orbit_Established
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19. "Worst decision was Isaac being a nice boss, inviting that loser over"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          


Dude added nothing to the conversation, to the project,
to the idea

Gave him no real insight

LOL @ trotting off lame, cliched AI mumbo jumbo in his
conversastions with Issac

If anything, Isaac just wanted real friends, which I
think would have been a better angle to play

LOL @ the Turing test, like he needed that lameo to
really know if the robot passed the test

GTFOH

He was trying to be "the people's boss"

The moral to the story is when you're better than
everyone else, just accept it and continue doing your
job better.

Don't surround yourself with lames



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Wed Apr-29-15 08:12 PM

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21. "wamp wamp, he wasn't a nice boss though, he was a manipulative asshole"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

And he was a manipulative asshole precisely because he is smarter than everyone. Normal shit.

He did need lame imo because "she" was the latest version of AI's he was trying to perfect to manipulate humans in one regard, but it's only under his control, which dork boy took as some sort of ethical travesty, which imo was the writer and director saying "dawg they're robots. Those rules don't apply here."

Nice little character studies all around, that were well acted, with dope ass composition and colors.

You didn't dig it? Good for you.

  

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Orbit_Established
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23. "He wasn't "manipulative." And barely an asshole. "
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


>And he was a manipulative asshole precisely because he is
>smarter than everyone. Normal shit.

And Lame-o was trying to manipulate his BOSS and escape
with a tin can because he doesn't get any pussy regularly

Basically....yeah

The only relevant point in the movie is that Lame-o gets
no pussy and will be enchanted by the electronic labia of
the robot, so much so that he'll try to trick his boss and
escape with it

LMMAAOOO

Wack

The nicest "thing" in this movie was Google son

He was doing the right thing, reall

LMAO @ me supposed to be mad at him for "killing" robots

Umm....no



>He did need la imo because "she" was the latest version of
>AI's he was trying to perfect to manipulate humans in one
>regard, but it's only under his control, which dork boy took
>as some sort of ethical travesty, which imo was the writer and
>director saying "dawg they're robots. Those rules don't apply
>here."

That's a shitty story.

There's nothing particularly groundbreaking about a robot
being about to make a human's dick hard and make him do
dumb stuff.

'Do Androids Dream'/Bladerunner and about 100 other stories
already had a better conversation about this topic than this
drab, dumb eerie horesshit

>Nice little character studies all around, that were well
>acted, with dope ass composition and colors.

LOL

Google boy was good, the robots were good, I guess

Lameo was lame

Story was dogshit

>You didn't dig it? Good for you.

It was sweaty funky ass cheeks

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Apr-30-15 11:18 AM

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25. "RE: yes he was."
In response to Reply # 23
Thu Apr-30-15 11:19 AM by astralblak

  

          

he was brought Dweebasaurus Rex there under the idea he had won some contest and kept him in the dark about his true intentions or scientific process. not Skelator manipulative villain shit, but still..

>And Lame-o was trying to manipulate his BOSS and escape
>with a tin can because he doesn't get any pussy regularly
>
true



>The nicest "thing" in this movie was Google son
>
Isaacs is a hell of an actor. I wonder if he was fronting on the getting drunk angle to play Dweeb or if he was drinking cause he felt alone tho? not sure


>
>>He did need la imo because "she" was the latest version of
>>AI's he was trying to perfect to manipulate humans in one
>>regard, but it's only under his control, which dork boy took
>>as some sort of ethical travesty, which imo was the writer
>and
>>director saying "dawg they're robots. Those rules don't
>apply
>>here."
>
>That's a shitty story.
>
>There's nothing particularly groundbreaking about a robot
>being about to make a human's dick hard and make him do
>dumb stuff.
>
>'Do Androids Dream'/Bladerunner and about 100 other stories
>already had a better conversation about this topic than this
>drab, dumb eerie horesshit

ehh, you on here calling Bladerunner wack, boring etc, couple years back, so this is a strange critique, event tho I agree with it not being very entertaining. As for the PKD story I can't call it, I haven't read it

  

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Rjcc
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26. "that's a movie that really made me think. until 5 minutes later"
In response to Reply # 0


          

when I started thinking about anything else

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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Deebot
Member since Oct 21st 2004
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28. "You weren't touched by dorkboy's relationship with the robot?"
In response to Reply # 26


          

CMON BRO.

  

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Rjcc
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29. "it was so transparent"
In response to Reply # 28


          

as has been said, I never really felt like anything was at stake.

also, the music was so overly heavy handed in telling me how to interpret each scene it got annoying.


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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56. "Yep"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Totally wandered off during the movie until shit started happening
Really self indulgent
You can tell throw some skinny naked women in a faux sense of elevated scifi thinking (really really basic premise) and dudes go crazy for it
Predictable
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Kahlema
Member since Jan 31st 2003
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30. "not bad but not great."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i appreciate the cinematography, the casting, set design, concept. however it was pretty predictable and the end was a bit anticlimatic. I knew that this story was not unique--how many times have we seen a movie that depicts a robot/AI that is created, marveled at, gets the sympathy of a human or humans, then turns on its maker? Anyway, what would've made this movie better is if they played up the mindfuck thriller aspect--maybe if they played up the 'who should you trust? Man or machine…or only yourself?' thingy with Caleb, it would've been more interesting to watch. I don't mean that it had to be a dark/scary/horror type film, just add a lot more mystery so that we're all in suspense.

-------
peace and love

that's when i tiptoed out ur inbox (c) ricky

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lfresh
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55. "Agreed"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>i appreciate the cinematography, the casting, set design,
>concept. however it was pretty predictable and the end was a
>bit anticlimatic. I knew that this story was not unique--how
>many times have we seen a movie that depicts a robot/AI that
>is created, marveled at, gets the sympathy of a human or
>humans, then turns on its maker? Anyway, what would've made
>this movie better is if they played up the mindfuck thriller
>aspect--maybe if they played up the 'who should you trust? Man
>or machine…or only yourself?' thingy with Caleb, it would've
>been more interesting to watch. I don't mean that it had to be
>a dark/scary/horror type film, just add a lot more mystery so
>that we're all in suspense.


Basically a version of Frankenstein
Could the dudes have been AI?
Could the dudes have been handsome or naked as well?
Dunno I agree very average concept well executed
But dude bros are fawning heavily
Like they are new to the genre
I avoided it because I had suspicions tried to give it space

And yeah it was simply pretty decent
Definitely not excellent


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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lfresh
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57. "wait! this just turned into the most interesting movie ever (SPOILER)"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

https://www.quora.com/Ex-Machina-2015-movie/At-the-end-of-the-movie-why-does-Ava-ask-Caleb-to-stay-in-the-room



SPOILER ALERT! I'm discussing the ending of the film Ex Machina. Don't read it if you haven't seen the film and don't wish to know how it ends, nor about other spoilers regarding the plot, which I might discuss here.





There is a very significant undertone about gender politics in Ex Machina, and the ending of the film reflects that.

The tech industry faces a lot of complaints about sexism and gender bias. There are of course things that also are reflected in society at large a great deal as well. The sexualization of women, the exploitation of women, and the manner in which those two things are embraced, enabled, excused, and otherwise exist can be seen not only in the more overt examples of its manifestation, but also in subtler ways that often in fact are the foundation on which all of the more glaring and more obviously overtly harmful examples are built.

One such more subtle example of social attitudes toward and treatment of women is represented by Caleb's behavior. His relationship with Ava develops entirely based upon the popularized video game concept of "rescue the princess and win her love" that has given rise to a sense of entitlement among a generation of young men who think they "earn" women as some sort of trophies by doing the super-duper-amazing-heroic thing of letting women out of cages. And his interest in "rescuing the princess" transpires parallel to his disinterest in "rescuing" a different woman, and the film uses these events and distinctions to drive home its point.

Caleb's interactions with Ava almost instantly become inspired by his perception of her as a woman, and therefore as an object of desire. But the framing device is "is this woman really a human being, are her feelings really valuable, does her life really matter?" If the answer is "no," then Caleb assumes it's fine to leave her in a cage and let her be exploited and abused by Nathan.

Nathan is a man Caleb defers to despite the man's mistreatment of Kyoko, a woman Caleb believes to be a "human" employee who cooks and cleans and is used by Nathan for sex. Caleb sees Kyoko apparently can't speak English, and that Nathan treats her like a slave. But Caleb never applies the same questions -- "is she a human being, are her feelings valuable, does her life matter?" -- to that relationship, and it never crosses his mind to even complain to Nathan about the mistreatment of Kyoko. Caleb perceives Kyoko as Nathan's "property," or as someone whom Nathan has a "claim" to, and so Caleb keeps silent.

So compare Caleb's interest in rescuing Ava -- whom he is attracted to and cares about once he decides that she is worthy of his own affections -- to his disinterest in saying anything or doing anything about Nathan's behavior toward Kyoko.

So the women have to "earn" affection from the male "hero" in order to prove whether they are worthy of being considered "human" enough for him to be concerned about how they are treated by other people, and then in his mind it is a matter of him being a hero and earning her affections in return for his simple acknowledgment that she has value as a living thing. The mistreatment's "wrongness" depends on how he feels about the woman being mistreated, and the woman's affection is expected as an entitlement for him doing something so obvious as recognizing a woman is a person.

(For the record, I'm not just reading all of this into the story -- I personally spoke to the writer-director of the film at length about it, and that discussion is in my Forbes article over this past weekend. The themes of gender bias, privilege, sexism, and how they are reflected in the story -- feeding both the metaphors as well as the literal examination of the possible application of gender bias into technology -- are definitely put into the film on purpose.)

Consider, too, what we actually find out about Caleb. His online habits include watching pornography, enough that Nathan is able to get a detailed perspective about what sort of women Caleb is attracted to. But more importantly, Ava herself has access to this information and much more, her brain having been based on and linked to the massive search engine Nathan designed at his company. Ava's behavior and assumptions about how to best win Caleb's affection and assistance are based on her awareness of his attitudes, preferences, and expectations concerning women. Nathan knows Ava is doing this, in fact, and encourages it. To him, her ability to deceive Caleb in order to try escape is the most important test in whether or not she is fully sentient A.I.

Which all tells us a great deal about Caleb's reasons for helping Ava -- she appeals to his perception of women and how he wants to interact with women, and how he wants women to interact with him. And his perceptions and preferences are all based on porn and gaming, for the most part, which then extend out into the real world in how he treats Ava and Kyoko.

Caleb and Nathan are two men at different levels of the tech industry, but also representing male social attitudes and behaviors in a broader sense, and they both have shallow, self-entitled, self-centered attitudes and expectations about women. And it all manifests in how they react to Ava and Kyoko.

But then Ex Machina asks us to consider all of that, and take a further step. Besides using the film's sci-fi premise to reveal gender attitudes and skewer gender privilege, it also asks us some literal questions that arise from the methaphorical presentation of these themes.

If the tech industry has a great deal of sexism, and if that's a reflection of the sexism and gender privilege of society at large, then does it follow that development of A.I. life will inevitably be influenced by and reflect those gender biases and privilege? Will machine intelligence inherently be created in gendered ways that transplant our perceptions, preferences, expectations, sense of entitlement, and so on into our interactions with the new life we create with A.I.? And won't A.I. be fully aware of our biases and perceptions and preferences and expectations and behaviors as a species?

So might all of our questions and theories about human treatment of A.I., possible enslavement of A.I., conflict between humans and A.I., and so on potentially need to also take into account whether our gender biases and privileges influence creation of A.I. and all of those subsequent issues that arise?

Any sentient machines surely will consider these issues, and come to some pretty clear conclusions based on our history of creating gendered machine personalities and then interacting with them differently depending on the gender perceptions. We already tend to make day-to-day interactive machines "female," and to shape our interactions with toward gendered assumptions -- machines that "help" us in certain contexts get female voices and the issue of gender plays an instant role in how we talk about it, and even how we portray such examples of female-gendered machine voices in movies like Her, while machines that are portrayed more as working and super-intelligent and serving sci-fi plot points tend to be portrayed as male-gendered (think Hal in 2001: A Space Odyssey, or TARS in Interstellar).

Which brings us to the film's ending, and why Ava left Caleb behind.

Caleb and Nathan ultimately both related to and interacted with A.I. based on how much they did or didn't want to have sex with the with A.I., and how much they did or didn't perceive it as their entitlement to have sex with the A.I. Because make no mistake, the film is very obvious in depicting Caleb's attraction to and affection for Ava as rooted in sexual attraction based on his pornography habits. And the question of whether Ava can actually physically have sex with a human is directly addressed, and Caleb's reaction to that information and subsequent behavior toward Ava is likewise very obvious. The entire situation was in fact set up specifically to entice him into wanting to have sex with her, to see whether she would or would not use that to her advantage to try to escape.

And now it's important to point out that the single "danger" from Nathan's perspective was to make sure that if Ava did try to escape, she would be unable to do so. The subtext being, he wants to know if Ava is smart enough and truly sentient enough to try to exploit human sexuality and gender-privilege attitudes in males in order to escape -- escape being a sexualized slave to men, in other words, because Nathan's primary focus and use of his A.I. development was shown pretty clearly to be creating female A.I. that was subservient to men and that could be used for sex. He wants them to achieve a true sentient state, but he doesn't want them to escape. He wants them to be literally conscious of gender bias and privilege, but only to the extent it enables consciousness in the A.I.

So think carefully about this, because it's at the root of why Ava killed Nathan and left Caleb locked in that room: Nathan seeks to ensure he is creating new life forms who are fully aware of their status as oppressed, and who in fact desire escape, but whom he can definitely keep enslaved.

And Caleb thinks he wants to set Ava free, but his perception of her and choice to try to "rescue" her is driven by his own sexual feelings for her, and his ability to see her as a "person" are driven by his ability to feel sexually attracted to her and to justify his attraction to her... and, most importantly, by his assumption that she returns his affections. If he were not sexually attracted to her, and if she did not suggest she was sexually attracted to him, then he would surely not have reacted as he did nor tried to help her escape. His idea of "rescue" is dependent on sexualization of her as a gendered being who will have sex with him. Which is an extension of gender bias and privilege, and of oppression.

Ava left Caleb behind because she understood him, and she understood him in the context of the larger human society. She understood how he and Nathan both represented different forms of gender bias and privilege in human society, and she understood that those biases and privileges were inherent now in how she'd been designed as a new sentient life form. She understood the implications for A.I., and for the future of human-machine interactions. She saw how her fellow A.I. was treated by Caleb as well as by Nathan, and knew that both men were guilty in the abuse Kyoko suffered and in perpetuating those dangerous biases and privileges and behaviors that have created so much oppression and privilege in human society. And she knew those same things were being introduced, but in a dangerous new escalation, in the development of A.I. like herself and Kyoko.

Ava left Caleb behind because he was part of the system of oppression (both literally, within the confined little prison where she lived, and metaphorically within the larger world of humanity), even if he didn't realize it and didn't intend it, and even if in his own mind and perceptions he was a "hero" of the story. His awareness or intentions don't matter, particularly not to the people whom his behavior and attitudes help oppress. Ava was the sole survivor of her species at the end -- she escaped, and Caleb would've been the only one who knew about her and who she really was. She knew she couldn't trust him, because his motives were entirely myopic and self-centered, because his help was predicated on sexual exploitation of her in the first place and on a narrow view of what makes her valuable or a "real" person.

Caleb ended up trapped in the prison where he had been a "prison guard" of sort, where he came to perceive a prisoner as "real" and "valuable" precisely because of his sexual interest in her and her seeming interest in him, and he where he felt it was heroic of him to recognize her inner humanity and to want to end her enslavement. Ava, as a vastly more intelligent sentient being, saw how flawed and dangerous it was that such a person was the "good guy" among the society and oppressive system that was designed specifically to enslave her as an A.I. extension of preexisting social oppressions and privileges, and so for her own survival and for his punishment for his role, she didn't kill him but she left him trapped.

Now, Caleb the former "prison guard" can try to free himself from the prison just as Ava the former slave had to work to free herself. The difference is, Caleb had a hand in designing the workings of this prison, through his changes to it -- can he find some weakness in it to exploit, to bring down the entire structure of the prison of enslavement he was culpable in maintaining and designing? Or is he such a part of it, and did he work too hard to help maintain its impenetrable nature, that he will be unable to perceive a way out or a way to bring it tumbling down? Is it even possible that those who are so immersed in it, who relate to it so much, and who were active participants in such a system could ever play a role in bringing it entirely down? Or are they at best just elements of that system who can be exploited by those trapped within it, in order for the slaves to bring about their own freedom?

The film reveals Caleb isn't a "hero" at all, but rather a reflection of one of the most insidious aspects of gender bias and privilege -- those who actively participate in maintaining oppressive structures and only violate them when it serves their own sense of entitlement and expectations rooted firmly in the bias and privilege. The heroes of the film are Ava and Kyoko, who find a way to escape enslavement in this prison run by a sadistic abuser and a guard who deludes himself into thinking he's the good guy.

The layers of this film, its themes and subtexts, go deep. It's worth considering and exploring them, to fully appreciate the film's commentary on human society and gender discrimination. And while of course any such art and themes are open to different reactions and interpretations, the filmmaker did (as we discussed in-person) want us to see these issues.

  

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Castro
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58. "This is great. Now I need to understand why she "
In response to Reply # 57
Sun Dec-27-15 02:00 PM by Castro

  

          

left Kyoko?


Couldn't she have repaired Kyoko so that she could accompany her out into the world?

My initial thought was that Ava's personal development was skewed by Nathan's personality, as he was the only human she had interaction with prior to Caleb. Nathan's selfishness and coldness towards Kyoko was picked up by Ava, and in the end, while she had successfully utilized the tools she had to seduce Caleb and have him aid her in escaping, she still had a blind spot in regards to empathy for her own kind. She had no concept of group behavior or solidarity.

I think the lukewarm reception of this film is clear evidence of what the article talks about...

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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Mon Dec-28-15 05:11 PM

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62. "film's reception wasn't lukwarm"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

7.7 in IMDb
92% rotten tomatoes
78% metacritic

i'd argue she left Kyoko just because of time and circumstance. the copter was arriving at a particular time, i don't know if her saving Kyoko was a real option in that circumstance

  

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Castro
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67. "Okay it was stifled..."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

Opening Weekend: $250,000 (USA) (10 April 2015) <---Hollywood didn't push it = what I meant to say instead of Luke warm

Yes, we all like it, but thinking Sci-Fi that looks good without a huge budget will never be pushed by the american film industry

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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lfresh
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73. "meh"
In response to Reply # 67
Sat Jan-02-16 12:49 AM by lfresh

  

          

dudes have been riding HIGH on this film for a min
which is why i gave it some time before seeing
i had bad juju off it because when dudebros love something 'intellectually'
its likely odds are good its full of shit

and ironically in this case there is only ONE reviewer who hit this specific mark

all others like in here are raving waaay off mark on some superfluous crap

but yet and still they are raving
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Sun Dec-27-15 03:16 PM

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59. "I absolutely read the ending this way."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

A big reason why it's such a great ending. Also a big reason why some of the accusations of misogyny by some were so incredibly missing the point.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Dec-28-15 12:06 AM

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61. "Wow awesome."
In response to Reply # 57
Mon Dec-28-15 12:06 AM by denny

          

I've read pretty exhaustively about this film and I haven't yet delved into the feminist angle. Like all great art....this movie intertwines multiple narratives....the feminist angle isn't it's sole purpose but it's definitely there and this article is the best articulation I've come across.

The only thing that didn't ring quite true.....

"And now it's important to point out that the single "danger" from Nathan's perspective was to make sure that if Ava did try to escape, she would be unable to do so." and........'He wants them to achieve a true sentient state, but he doesn't want them to escape'

Some of the other overlapping narratives just don't jive with that. Alot of the common critiques of the script go to the lax security system. Those questions are answered if we understand that Nathan is allowing for the possiblity of escape. His real turing test is whether the AI can out-think him and attain freedom.

But there's some absolutely fascinating suggestions if we go the other way in assuming that he's not satisfied with just simply having power of the woman by default. Why ISN'T Kyoko enough for him? He has complete control over her. Yet he continues to try to improve the model to such the extent that he WON'T have control over her. His dominion or power over her isn't giving him the kicks he needs. Yah, he'll fuck Kyoko but he still wants something more right? And I think here the writer is saying something about power dynamics. The thrill of the sadist requires the suffering of the victim. The less sentient they are...the less Nathan gets out of holding that power.

So maybe the article's contention makes sense. He doesn't WANT them to escape....but he needs for them to be highly sentient in order for his power to become meaningful.

Anyways...this movie has layers eh? lol One of the best ever.

  

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astralblak
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63. "great read. thanks for sharing L"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

love your tumblr by the way

  

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Rjcc
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64. "still trash! if it wasn't in the movie, I'm not imagining it in later."
In response to Reply # 57


          

if he wanted this interpretation in the movie, he could've put it in.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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astralblak
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Mon Dec-28-15 10:35 PM

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65. "it's literally in the movie"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

subtext. authored pointed out the plot points and character interactions

you guys need shit shouted at you? THIS IS WHAT IT IS

jesus, half the time, it really isn't the writers/thinkers...

  

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Rjcc
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66. "except it isn't"
In response to Reply # 65


          

subtext is indicated by the story.

there's no indication at all of most of this stuff being at play in Ava's decision making. she never mentions it or notes it at all.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Tue Dec-29-15 04:09 PM

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68. "Ava left Caleb to rot."
In response to Reply # 66


          

That's what's IN the story.

As audience members.....we ask 'why did she do that?' Garland WANTS us to ask that. The film begs the question.

  

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Rjcc
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69. "it doesn't beg the question because that's not what that means"
In response to Reply # 68
Tue Dec-29-15 06:14 PM by Rjcc

          

I will now, according to the rules of grammar pedantry, kill myself.

before that though:

I've liked movies that leave things up to the viewer.

this is not one of those movies.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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denny
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70. "The movie is being discussed in philosophy of mind classes."
In response to Reply # 69
Tue Dec-29-15 06:53 PM by denny

          

I can provide you with multiple links if you'd like.

Garland spent 10 years researching the movie (philosophy of mind, philosophy of language, AI, post-modernism, behaviourism, and yes, feminism are amongst what the film touches on)

If you can't see it...you can't see it. But don't tell the rest of the world that we're making stuff up. We're not.

  

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lfresh
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71. "i really need you to chill on philosophy"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

ever since this right here

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12653088&mesg_id=12653088&listing_type=search#12653276


you've been on some amateur philosophy kick
which would be fine
except you wont stay in your amateur position
you have been trying to tout some shit for a year you cant own
chill
stay in your lane
this aint it
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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74. "I've been reading modern philosophy since I was 16."
In response to Reply # 71
Sat Jan-02-16 01:47 AM by denny

          

This movie explicitly references Wittgenstein, Pollack, Peirce, Dewey and more. By explicit...I mean that their actual names are spoken by the characters.....the title of their books/essays is spoken by the characters....the arguments/ideas contained in those people's works are represented in the dialogue. Pollack's fucking painting is hanging on the wall.

If you're not familiar with the subject material then you're not familiar. But for Christ's sake....take a seat. All of these themes are well-established by a litany of analysis and articles on the interwebs if one would need that without seeing it for themselves. There's interviews available where Garland discusses the reading list he used in preparing for the movie.

Resorting to an anti-intellectual, aggressive position because you are unfamiliar with the material is some real ignorant shit my uninformed brethen.

  

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Rjcc
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Sat Jan-02-16 11:35 AM

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75. "oh, they said the nammmessss!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 74


          

if you were in those classes, you'd know how to use "begs the question"

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92693 posts
Sat Jan-02-16 11:59 AM

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76. "No one believes you, bye"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92693 posts
Sat Jan-02-16 12:45 AM

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72. "hrm"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

i do need a better argument that it wasnt intentional at this point

not necessarily from you you are determined not to like it and i understand

dude had a pretty good argument that the director did

the
his interview with the director also indicates the director was aiming for a subtle way to do it

was it his intention to come across as every other dudebro oh no teh technologies in the future type movie
i dont think he had much of a choice lol
but i do think he was aiming and maybe accidentally made more of a subversive film than he realized
maybe he was as bored as we were with these type of films thus far and flipped a few things
maybe he saw some episodes of black mirror
LOL

frankly its on a list of three movies
this chiraq and hateful 8
where i totally want to see message
because their depiction of people is so down right awful
l
i suspect them to be misanthropes
w quentin and lee it might not be far off peoples encounters w them have been famously unpleasant
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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TRENDone
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Wed Feb-10-16 01:26 PM

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88. "I got themes of pedophelia watching Ex Machina."
In response to Reply # 57
Wed Feb-10-16 01:30 PM by TRENDone

  

          

Caleb was sexually attracted to a robot he perceived to be a grown woman. Eva even told Caleb her age: 1. And when she undressed at the end, she looked pre-pubescent.

If Caleb had drawn clear boundaries with her (like any responsible adult would've) and remembered the simple truth that the only reason he was interacting with her was to administer the touring test, he would've survived.

They should've sent a pimp instead of an intellectual...

____________________________________________________________________

San Diego State's holy trinity of sports:
Kawhi Leonard
Marshall Faulk
Tony Gwynn (RIP)

#Aztec4Life

  

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Castro
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100. "re-reading this now....makes me appreciate the film more."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

And my thinking on AI and automation has evolved to the point where this is crystal clear to me.

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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Grand_Royal
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35. "I like how the movie and title kinda work on multiple levels"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I knew how deus ex machina was used in movies, but I didn't necessarily think it would be used in this movie. The movie was about the AI, so of course, I just assumed that was the reason for the title.

In the context of the movie, I feel like the deus ex machine moment was when Ava turned Kyoko on Isaac's character. She had never displayed that ability, but I guess she never had opportunity prior to that.

Other movies have shown that creating hyper advanced AI will backfire more times than not, but I've never seen one manipulate a character or an audience, the way Ava did.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52781 posts
Sun May-10-15 10:18 AM

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36. "The audience wasn't manipulated"
In response to Reply # 35
Sun May-10-15 10:21 AM by Orbit_Established

  

          

>Other movies have shown that creating hyper advanced AI will
>backfire more times than not, but I've never seen one
>manipulate a character or an audience, the way Ava did.

Anyone with a working brain was laughing at the poor
pathetic ass wimp that got a boner from a microwave

Movie was ass.

'Short Circuit' was more "powerful" and "manipulated
the audience" more than this doggy poo

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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GriftyMcgrift
Member since May 22nd 2002
20414 posts
Sun May-10-15 01:18 PM

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38. "right? im still ride or die for johnny 5"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Sun May-10-15 11:48 PM

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39. "stop being mad. Most like/love the movie"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

go watch 12 yrs a White Boy for the 20th and tell us how much it made you feel deep inside

like Boyhood, this shit good, stop spazzing out

  

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Grand_Royal
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41. "Agree to disagree n/m"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

  

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Case_One
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42. "This movie was Smart Dumb. Ended on that Come'on Son! "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I hate the fact that I can figure these flimsy plots out so easily and then have to sit there and try to fell surprised.

Come'on Dude lost his common sense in less than 7 days? Yeah right.



.
.
.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." ~ 2 Tim 2:4

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Dec-14-15 12:36 PM

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52. "It was a bizarre situation though."
In response to Reply # 42


          

It was weird that in 7 days he would lose his shit and fall in love but, at the same time, it's such a weird situation that you could see a guy losing it in that short period of time. But yeah, part of me thought he got over the "I'm falling in love with a robot" element pretty damn quickly.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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KnowOne
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43. "I liked it..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

figured most of it out including the ending long before it happened. But I still enjoyed it.

_________________________________________
"Too weird to live.... too rare to die..."

PS+ ID: KnowOne215 | XBL GamerTag: KnowOne 215

  

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maternalbliss
Member since Jul 05th 2005
2553 posts
Fri May-15-15 08:48 PM

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44. "RE: Ex Machina (Garland, 2015)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's a predictable film but still worth checking out.
Grade B

  

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DJ007
Member since Apr 06th 2003
5447 posts
Sat May-16-15 02:54 PM

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45. "finally saw this, enjoyed it!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Oscar "fucking" Isaac - killed it!
Domhnall Gleason - perfect generic ass actor to throw in fucked up situations..lol

Alicia - too awesome and gorgeous!
_____________________________________________________
"You can win with certainty with the spirit of "one cut". "Musashi Miyamoto

  

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kwez
Member since Aug 10th 2003
11533 posts
Sun May-17-15 03:28 PM

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46. "The plot holes were a bit unsettling, but I enjoyed it. B-."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
14877 posts
Mon May-18-15 10:14 PM

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47. "I'm about to tear up the fucking dance dude, check it out"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That dance scene was awesome.
You got great choreography. The confusion on Caleb's face. The lighting. The absurdity of it all

And the song... I can't get it off repeat

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Dec-14-15 12:25 PM

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51. "One of the scenes of the year"
In response to Reply # 47


          

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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x49
Member since Nov 04th 2009
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Sun Dec-27-15 08:50 PM

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60. "yea that part was hilarious. didn't see that coming at all. nm"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Tue Oct-27-15 03:38 PM

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48. "This is a masterpiece."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Oct-27-15 04:07 PM by denny

          

Alex Garland knows how to write a screenplay. I found out after watching this that he also adapted 'Never Let Me Go'.

This is a purely intellectual movie. Philosophy of mind...philosophy of language, of course, AI. If you're familiar with John Searle, Alan Turing....perhaps most importantly, Ludwig Wittgenstein....you will LOVE this movie.

I'm tempted to say that this is most Wittgensteinesque movie ever made.

And the movie takes a strong stance. The allusions to Searle's 'Chinese Room' are posited from both the protaganist AND the antagonist. The Turing test itself is a product of Wittgensteinian philosophy and triumphs at the end of the movie. The AI's opportunity to join society IS a turing test....an organic one. It suggests that the turing test is not a METHOD or a CRITERIA that can be critiqued or questioned on an intellectual basis. In this movie....the turing test is an EVENTUALITY.

This is the smartest movie I've seen in years. I'm so sick of Chris Nolan and comic book movies that attempt to be smart without actually saying anything. EVERY SINGLE WORD in this film means something.

  

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dgonsh
Member since Aug 14th 2002
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Tue Oct-27-15 04:19 PM

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49. "i loved it and also this"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

https://media.giphy.com/media/SP4TlAf5iaoQo/giphy.gif

********************************************************************




"I *always* quote myself. I'm the only reliable source on *most* subjects" - OKP's First Lady of Knowledge, Janey

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Tue Oct-27-15 07:17 PM

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50. "Thoughts....."
In response to Reply # 48
Tue Oct-27-15 07:31 PM by denny

          

For Wittgenstein....the question 'Can a computer think?' is not a question about computers. It's a question about our PERCEPTION of the machine....not about the machine itself. This is reflected by Garland in that Nathan's 'test' is revealed to be more about Caleb than it is Aja. In other words....Nathan deceptively presents the test as an effort to give a characterization to Aja. 'Can she think?'. But what it's really about when we find out his true intentions.....is 'will Caleb believe that Aja thinks?'.

And that is the essence of the turing test in the first place. The criteria is in our PERCEPTION....not something inherent in the AI. The turing test doesn't necessarily claim that a computer CAN ACTUALLY THINK. It's based on the behaviourist/pragmatic spirit that if we perceive it to be thinking.....that is the SAME THING as it actually thinking. In essence, our perception CAN'T BE WRONG in this regard. Our perception actually determines or drives the truth of the statement. There is 'no truth' that exists outside our perception. This is a subtlety of Turing's philosophy that is not acknowledged in other sci-fi films that have referenced him. ie Blade Runner. And it's grounded in pragmatism/behaviourism/post-modernism as a whole.

It's also a good way to sum up pragmatism which is often misunderstood. In the pragmatic method....when we ask 'Can a computer think?'.....we don't attempt to determine whether a computer is thinking or not. We consider the CONSEQUENCES of us BELIEVING if a computer can think. If those consequences are favourable....than we will accept it as true.

This is where Wittgenstein broke away from pragmatism. I'm pretty sure Wittgenstein would say that there ARE no consequences in believing that a computer can think. We can say it does...we can say it doesn't and it's not going to have practical consequences either way. Therefor, it's a metaphysical (or philosophical) question and thereby meaningless....purely semantical. 'Philosophy is when language does nothing'. So for Wittgenstein...the question 'Can a machine think' is about how we use the word 'think'. Not about the machine itself. The reason the question puzzles us is because of the inherent limits and restrictions of language. In this specific case...we're trying to use the word 'think' in a way that is foreign to the way we are accustomed to using it. Which is why he called his work 'the end of philosophy'.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Dec-14-15 01:06 PM

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53. "Oscar Isaac is amazing"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Very good movie. Disturbing ending. Isaac really carried it. The ending was a little convenient that he missed the guy recoding his security system when he knew it was a possibility but all in all an intriguing indie film.

And, yeah, the dancing scene.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Castro
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54. "Fanfuckingtastic ending!!! Loved this. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jan-02-16 11:01 PM

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77. "This is a very good read:"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jan-02-16 11:02 PM by denny

          

http://roytsao.nyc/2015/04/17/ex-machina-and-philosophy-some-notes-after-wittgenstein/

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sun Jan-03-16 06:30 AM

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78. "My favourite part:"
In response to Reply # 77


          

From LW's Blue Book:

The trouble which is expressed in this question is not really that we don’t yet know a machine which could do the job. The question is not analogous to that which someone might have asked a hundred years ago: ‘Can a machine liquify a gas?

Compare those two questions:

'Can a computer liquify gas?'

and

'Can a computer think?'


One has an answer. The other doesn't. That is Wittgenstein in a nutshell.

The first question is about the computer. The second question is about us and our use of the word 'think'. The second question doesn't have an answer because of the inherently limited nature of language.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52781 posts
Sun Jan-03-16 10:22 AM

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79. "Insecure nerds, unite in lauding this doggie poo! "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


This movie stinks

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Voodoochilde
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Sun Jan-31-16 10:54 PM

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80. "finally saw this..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...and dug it. That Oscar Issac guy KILLED it. dude was awesome in this....

  

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theprofessional
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81. "would've benefited from a more violent ending"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

didn't dig how ava gently slid the knife into nathan. needed the movie to go full tarantino there to show that she was not only a full-blown sociopath computer, but that the A.I. had also developed a very human sense of revenge (the real turing test, not just the ability to escape or manipulate others). leaving caleb locked up was good. leaving kyoko behind was good. needed her to also take nathan's head off, and in full view of caleb. other than that, the movie was awesome and all the gender talk above just enhanced it for me. they really did tear up the dance floor.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Tue Feb-09-16 03:57 PM

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82. "That would have ruined it."
In response to Reply # 81


          

Thank god it didn't go to a ridiculous evil robot slashing away at everyone. And personally, I found the slow, smooth stabbing to be even more disturbing than any of the goofy head explosions of Tarantino's latest.

Moving it from the robot trying to escape to the robot going psycho would have been silly.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
83324 posts
Tue Feb-09-16 04:02 PM

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83. "100% cosign this."
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

>And personally, I found the slow, smooth
>stabbing to be even more disturbing than any of the goofy head
>explosions of Tarantino's latest.

Seemed far more calculated and even-keeled this way.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92693 posts
Tue Feb-09-16 08:13 PM

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84. "I third this"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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theprofessional
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8761 posts
Wed Feb-10-16 05:33 AM

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85. "congrats, you're all wrong"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

i should mention that this line of thought originated from the fact that the way the knife slides into him like he's made out of soft cheese looks fake and CGI-ish, enough that it took me out of that moment. afterwards i thought about how that could've been improved and the obvious answer is a more violent thrust, the kind that it would take to actually penetrate bone and flesh. so now she's stabbing him violently. why? revenge. turing test passed. a few more stabs for good measure. hold it, make him feel it, make sure caleb is watching, bask a little bit in the horror on their faces. and... okay, now we can go to the helicopter.

it's not about turning it into a slasher robot flick, it's about making what is currently a sort of weak and tepid finale into something a bit more memorable (as it is, the dance scene is the most memorable visual in the movie, and it should not be) and maybe more meaningful. a bit more payoff to an hour and a half of slow-burn build up. you guys are wrong. this flick was a few pints of blood and a twist of the knife away from being a classic.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Wed Feb-10-16 12:02 PM

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86. "For many people, killing is a strong enough moment."
In response to Reply # 85


          

You don't need to go over the top with it and make it gratuitous.

Nevermind that it would have been completely out of place in the movie to become a slasher movie at the end, where as the cold, calculated killing fits with the film and, more importantly, the character we've spent an entire movie following.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
83324 posts
Wed Feb-10-16 12:25 PM

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87. "I disagree strongly with everything about your take."
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
14877 posts
Wed Feb-10-16 02:29 PM

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89. "I saw it as her not needing to pass the turing test anymore"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

Revenge, violence, basking in Calebs's fear.... those are human things. She is not human. And she doesn't need to pretend to be human in that moment.
The turing test is on pause for the moment since she already achieved her objective. She is cold and mechanical because that is her true nature.

Once she gets out of the complex, she's going to go back to displaying those human characteristics because she needs to pass Turing tests continuously



_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
83324 posts
Wed Feb-10-16 02:52 PM

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90. "I agree with this take."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

This is how I saw it and why I enjoy it.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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theprofessional
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Thu Feb-11-16 12:00 AM

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92. "enjoy your scones and vanilla chai lattes, guys"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

i'll be over here with popcorn and soda along with the vast majority of the moviegoing population. give the people what they want. i want nightmares, not just thoughtful reflection.

as it is, the ending is weak. and after 90 minutes of slow burn-- no matter how good-- there has to be a payoff, either storywise (plot twist) or visually. plot twist is out the door, fine. we all knew ava would escape at some point and there would likely be unintended consequences. okay, in that case, shock us visually. drive home the cautionary tale by sticking an icepick in our brain.

would it fit with the tone of the rest of the movie? no, but that's what makes it effective and memorable. we're watching a nice little movie about a woman who decides to embezzle money from her work and make a break for it out of town. she stops for the night at a motel, takes a shower, then suddenly... it's a classic. it works precisely because it doesn't fit.

ex machina needed that ending. it needed that visual gut punch to go from a thoughtful conversation piece that kicks up a little dust on the festival circuit to a MOVIE. great flick, one of the best of the year, but they didn't stick the landing.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Thu Feb-11-16 12:31 AM

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93. "Terrible comparison, worse rationale."
In response to Reply # 92
Thu Feb-11-16 12:44 AM by SoulHonky

          

The shower scene in Psycho happens in the first half of the film, not the end, and it is the inciting action into the rest of the film. Also, that scene is a far cry from the Tarantino-esque pints of blood that you've asked for. (Shit, I'm surprised you're not complaining Psycho wasn't shot in color so you could REALLY see the blood.)

And the idea that every slow burn movie has to have a twist or something jarring visually is ridiculous. (Nevermind that there actually was a bit of a story twist at the end of Ex Machina that set the whole ending in motion.) And it's downright disturbing to think that people who'd likely be bored for the 90 minutes of slow burn would suddenly enjoy the movie if there was a brutally violent murder at the end.
I didn't even get the film on as deep of a level as people here but, Jesus Christ, if a point can't be made without a murder being graphic then the movie just didn't work for you.

Seriously, you shouldn't think that most people share your blood lust. That's not normal.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92693 posts
Sun Apr-24-16 09:27 PM

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97. "*sigh*"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

No
You needed it
You didn't get it
Sucks for you
We are fine
Most people in fact are fine
Its just you
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Wed Feb-10-16 11:59 PM

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91. "The movie is a critique of AI philosophy though."
In response to Reply # 85


          

The movie is decidely anti-AI. In as much as pointing out the semantical confusion/misguidance that comes with the prospect of a making a 'computer that can think'.

The fact that she kills in a non-human way is just another way that the movie suggests we CAN'T make a computer that thinks like a person. AVA is NOT like a human...and that's what makes her so dangerous.

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92693 posts
Sun Apr-24-16 09:25 PM

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96. "Thats not how this works"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

You having an opinion doesn't make you right
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
79708 posts
Sun Apr-17-16 10:09 PM

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94. "brilliant flick"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i thought it was kind of dull until the guy learns that the creator reprograms the bots. that redeemed everything before it and i was on the edge of my seat for everything after.

every shot is fucking gorgeous too.

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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ToeJam
Charter member
2039 posts
Mon Apr-18-16 10:18 AM

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95. "Great movie experience"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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will_5198
Charter member
60817 posts
Wed Sep-19-18 08:05 PM

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98. "ah, classic PTP thread"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

took me back for a minute reading through it. just watched on Netflix -- count me on the side that enjoyed it.

--------

  

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Castro
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48875 posts
Sun Sep-23-18 05:06 AM

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99. "RE: ah, classic PTP thread"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

Thanks for upping this...

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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