so I get that the trilogy is an easy paycheck for Hollywood buddies to pose as an ensemble cast in a self-indulgent movie that has all the drama of a 10-stroke lead for Tiger Woods on Sunday
BUT
if you accept such a premise, and liked Oceans 11 and 13, why is 12 so universally panned?
- Vincent Cassel is a more enjoyable villain than Garcia's overacted Benedict or Pacino's "WHOOHAH" version in 13, especially when pitted against the team in a spy-vs-spy sense (and you have to admire a man who wifed Monica Bellucci)
- the European, casino-less setting was perfect sequel material and shot like a classic '70s film of similar taste
- Catherine Zeta Jones! She was at her sexual peak in this film and watching her take up screen time in heels and business dress was 100x more enjoyable than seeing Julia Roberts be the tipping point for a robbery
so by my count, that makes it definitely better than 13 (a retread of 11) and comparably enjoyable to the first.
1. "I like Ocean's 12, but it kinda does deserve it's reputation....." In response to Reply # 0
There's a lot to like, and I actually like it better than 13 which was pretty weak to me.
But in 12, they adapted a script from another story which is why it felt so loose coming off the first one. There were people (Bernie Mac) in the crew with literally NOTHING to do.
And they really didn't even pull of a heist so much as they did a theft. And then at the end, when you see the plot twist,it basically nullifies the whole premise of the movie to begin with.
What is cool about it is the style, the atmosphere, the dialog and watching some of hollywood's coolest interact. Plus, even though it's jive cheesy in a sense, the breakdance through the lasers was baddass.
But most heist flicks of any stripe have this cohesion that 12 kinda lacks. But for me it's still very enjoyable. Not as good as 11, but better than 13 to me which was only 'meh' to me. ______________________________________________________________________________
"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..." -unknown
25. "this is valid:" In response to Reply # 1 Wed Jul-08-09 01:21 PM by will_5198
>There were >people (Bernie Mac) in the crew with literally NOTHING to do.
I kinda forgot that most of the crew did absolutely nothing. but in a way, that kind of relates to its genius as a heist on Hollywood (if you want to look at it that way).
2. "A couple of big reasons why cats didn't like this movie" In response to Reply # 0 Tue Jul-07-09 04:15 PM by ZooTown74
- Vincent Cassel's capioera breakdancing
- The Julia Roberts as Julia Roberts twist
As has been stated several times on here, I didn't have a problem with Ocean's 12 whatsoever... I don't believe that it's "definitely" better than 13, but it's still an enjoyable celebrity romp, which is really all it's supposed to be... all of the bitching about "plot" details and shit is/was extra... and I don't care if the stars and Soderbergh said that they didn't like it... ________________________________________________________________________
8. "No. He's saying that they shouldn't be panned like they are." In response to Reply # 5
I don't get how people defend Miami Vice. At least Public Enemies had its moments and was well made (although still way too long and pretty much soulless).
And I thought Collateral got a better reception. Maybe not. I thought it was OK but most people I know really liked it.
4. "Matt Damon carried "Ocean's 12," to me" In response to Reply # 0
The best and the funniest parts of that movie had to do with him. Mostly the one-liners and the little background comments he makes.
While I enjoyed the movie in general, I think it's biggest problem was the script really didn't give a lot of the characters anything to do. As in, taking Bernie Mac out of the equation half an hour in, then taking out nearly everyone else before the third act.
I liked the European setting, but the heists and the set-ups weren't as interesting as in the first and the third. Cassell was i-ight, but not really that compelling of a villain. I'll allow it, because the villains were the weak points of all three movies (though I thought Garcia and Pacino were both inoffensive).
So while I agree that it got a bad rap for being awful, I still prefer the other two.
15. "co-sign (see my reply below) Damon was......." In response to Reply # 4 Tue Jul-07-09 04:03 PM by MANHOODLUM
the only one, minus Ruben, who was a real "character", and Ruben had it easy 'cause he looked like he was having fun.
All the other actors looked like they were just being themselves, like it was a lunchbreak.
Plus, I watch all my movies w/ subtitles, since my ex-wife was from Puerto Rico and she didn't catch everything. I learned w/ subtitles, you catch alot of stuff. The background comments were gold.
7. "I liked the music in the scene when Pitt is spying on Jones" In response to Reply # 0
& that about it
>- Vincent Cassel is a more enjoyable villain than Garcia's >overacted Benedict or Pacino's "WHOOHAH" version in 13, >especially when pitted against the team in a spy-vs-spy sense >(and you have to admire a man who wifed Monica Bellucci)
No he's not & no I don't & yes I am mad about it
>- Catherine Zeta Jones! She was at her sexual peak in this >film
Intolerable Cruelty would like to have a word with you
and watching her take up screen time in heels and >business dress was 100x more enjoyable than seeing Julia >Roberts be the tipping point for a robbery
"The movie takes inventory of its characters with the same droll wit it does everything else. The original original "Ocean's 11," made in 1960 by the Rat Pack, was a send-up of 1950s caper movies (it was inspired by Jean-Pierre Melville's French classic "Bob le Flambeur"). The new original "Ocean's Eleven" (2001) was a successful attempt by Soderbergh to doodle with the formula, much as a pianist might pick out a tune just well enough to show he could play it if he wanted to. Now, with "Ocean's Twelve," Soderbergh and his scenarists, George Clayton Johnson, Jack Golden Russell and George Nolfi, are doing a jazz riff. This isn't a caper movie at all, it's an improvisation on caper themes. If at times it seems like a caper, well, as the fellow said when he got up from the piano, it might not be Beethoven, but it has a lot of the same notes."
I think he's right - the movie doesn't exactly make sense; I think the plot is really just a loose excuse to hang various vingets on. To me it's like watching a bunch of artists (director, actors, etc) at the top of their craft just having a blast with each other, riffing on the idea of a caper movie.
13. "This is exactly why I like O12 the least." In response to Reply # 10
>To me it's like watching a bunch of artists >(director, actors, etc) at the top of their craft just having >a blast with each other, riffing on the idea of a caper >movie.
The first movie did this well, but the second movie was blatant st*rfucking navel gazing. Oh look at us, we are sooo cool. You audience should be just happy to watch us f*ck around. And what might have been a funny inside joke in another movie, The Julia Roberts as Julia Roberts twist, put the self indulgence over the top in this movie.
11. "12 was a'aight. Not great, but not terrible" In response to Reply # 0
It was definitely lacking with a lot of the cast in limbo for stretches at a time. While the JR as JR twist was kinda bleah, I liked the Bruce cameo which made up for it a bit for me. I think what did it for me was the heist was actually a snatch and grab in the end, which was weak.
13 was pretty good, even being a retread and overacting Al. The nose played....
<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up... __________________________
Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect. Game: Like Gladys Knight. Jay: Aretha Franklin. Game: Word, I like her too. Jay: Nigga...
14. "Ocean's 12 is one of the most underrated movies ever" In response to Reply # 0
MF all-star ensemble cast waited for the film/camera crew to leave after Ocean's 11< and made their OWN movie...just....talking....saying the first shit that came to their head, and then the companies marketed the SHIT out of it lol
Tailor-made, slick suits....hip-ass soundtrack, and exotic, wet, Euro-locales....
If anything, these MFs were making fun of themselves, and they looked like they had a hell of a time doing it.
LOLOL!! There were scenes where Amazing was actually HOLDING a camcorder...TAPING the shit.
Brad Pitt trying to keep from laughing?! check!
A heist movie with practically NO heist? check!
Rambling, bouncing dialogue between actors? check!
These MFs did everything but wink at the camera.
Truth be told, I don't know why this movie isn't seen as brilliant.
Now Ocean's 13?! That was mega meh. They all looked kind of bored doing it. They really phoned it in, and they tried to get "serious" again, but it wasn't close to clever. Pacino gave a solid C performance, and that's bad, considering his part consisted of "Be the biggest asshole these guys have ever seen". Pacino basically coasted on being a rich, pompous asshole. Bravo.
18. "my favorite aspect of 12 was actually in the making" In response to Reply # 0
as the story goes, catherine zeta jones shows up the first day of shooting and has her line prepared and is ready to go.
the guys are just sitting around bullshitin. she says hey and asked when they shoot.
pitt and clooney look at each other and say "oh, you thought we were shooting a movie...hahahaha" and went back to bullshittin'
that moment encapsulates the entire experience for me. just a bunch of friends hanging out with a loose script and a few cameras. chillin at a friends house for the summer with a camera crew and crafts services.
somehow, they were able to edit together their vacation footage and sell it as a movie, and that is awesome.
24. "ha. I hated that shit." In response to Reply # 22
but let me nominate She Hate Me in its place. I don't remember a single thing plot-wise from that film but any movie that has a Kerry Washington/Dania Ramirez lesbian sex scene has some type of redeemable value to society.
31. "I think I may actually like it, as a movie, better than Pet Detective" In response to Reply # 29
PD gets the shine for springing Carrey worldwide, but Nature was a tighter plot, the opening with Ace in the Tibetan monestary was hilarious. I remember when it came out, critics panned the Rhino scene for being a bite of Richard Pryor. NO SHIT! it's an homage; Carrey's a standup first and foremost. Shit, he did an entire movie about Andy Kaufman.
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