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Subject: "Ocean's 12 :: Movies With Unfair Raps" Previous topic | Next topic
will_5198
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"Ocean's 12 :: Movies With Unfair Raps"


          

so I get that the trilogy is an easy paycheck for Hollywood buddies to pose as an ensemble cast in a self-indulgent movie that has all the drama of a 10-stroke lead for Tiger Woods on Sunday

BUT

if you accept such a premise, and liked Oceans 11 and 13, why is 12 so universally panned?

- Vincent Cassel is a more enjoyable villain than Garcia's overacted Benedict or Pacino's "WHOOHAH" version in 13, especially when pitted against the team in a spy-vs-spy sense (and you have to admire a man who wifed Monica Bellucci)

- the European, casino-less setting was perfect sequel material and shot like a classic '70s film of similar taste

- Catherine Zeta Jones! She was at her sexual peak in this film and watching her take up screen time in heels and business dress was 100x more enjoyable than seeing Julia Roberts be the tipping point for a robbery

so by my count, that makes it definitely better than 13 (a retread of 11) and comparably enjoyable to the first.

uh...any others?

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I like Ocean's 12, but it kinda does deserve it's reputation.....
Jul 07th 2009
1
No, no, no, no, NO....13 was MEGA meh....not just 'meh'
Jul 07th 2009
16
this is valid:
Jul 08th 2009
25
A couple of big reasons why cats didn't like this movie
Jul 07th 2009
2
That was the worst shit in any film ever made
Jul 07th 2009
17
      Agreed. It made me check out mentally from the film.
Jul 08th 2009
28
           Cant recall if the capioera breakdance came before that but those
Jul 11th 2009
34
The last 3 Michael Mann movies
Jul 07th 2009
3
wait....you tryna say collateral was bad?
Jul 07th 2009
5
No. He's saying that they shouldn't be panned like they are.
Jul 07th 2009
8
Who talks shit about "Collateral"?
Jul 07th 2009
6
I coudlnt get into Miami Vice Loved Collateral
Jul 08th 2009
21
Okay fine, for those who say Why Collateral?, swap it out for Ali.
Jul 10th 2009
33
Matt Damon carried "Ocean's 12," to me
Jul 07th 2009
4
co-sign (see my reply below) Damon was.......
Jul 07th 2009
15
      yeah subtitles is the best way to watch Ocean's 12....
Jul 07th 2009
19
I liked the music in the scene when Pitt is spying on Jones
Jul 07th 2009
7
I agree on this point
Jul 08th 2009
32
Force 10 from Navarone
Jul 07th 2009
9
Yes! The Harrison Ford joint
Jul 07th 2009
12
I think Ocean's 12 is the best of them all
Jul 07th 2009
10
This is exactly why I like O12 the least.
Jul 07th 2009
13
12 was a'aight. Not great, but not terrible
Jul 07th 2009
11
Ocean's 12 is one of the most underrated movies ever
Jul 07th 2009
14
my favorite aspect of 12 was actually in the making
Jul 07th 2009
18
Which actually puts it righ tin the spirit of the original Oceans 11
Jul 08th 2009
30
IMHO: 13 > 12> 11
Jul 08th 2009
20
Miracle at St. Anna
Jul 08th 2009
22
ha. I hated that shit.
Jul 08th 2009
24
Wow, I agree with Cere.
Jul 08th 2009
27
I actually enjoy all 3 of the movies
Jul 08th 2009
23
see...12 was my favorite.
Jul 08th 2009
26
Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls
Jul 08th 2009
29
I think I may actually like it, as a movie, better than Pet Detective
Jul 08th 2009
31

WarriorPoet415
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Tue Jul-07-09 12:10 PM

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1. "I like Ocean's 12, but it kinda does deserve it's reputation....."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

There's a lot to like, and I actually like it better than 13 which was pretty weak to me.

But in 12, they adapted a script from another story which is why it felt so loose coming off the first one. There were people (Bernie Mac) in the crew with literally NOTHING to do.

And they really didn't even pull of a heist so much as they did a theft. And then at the end, when you see the plot twist,it basically nullifies the whole premise of the movie to begin with.

What is cool about it is the style, the atmosphere, the dialog and watching some of hollywood's coolest interact. Plus, even though it's jive cheesy in a sense, the breakdance through the lasers was baddass.

But most heist flicks of any stripe have this cohesion that 12 kinda lacks. But for me it's still very enjoyable. Not as good as 11, but better than 13 to me which was only 'meh' to me.
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MANHOODLUM
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16. "No, no, no, no, NO....13 was MEGA meh....not just 'meh'"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

and I agree as far as Bernie....he didn't have alot to do, but I loved it so much, I didn't really miss it.

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will_5198
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25. "this is valid:"
In response to Reply # 1
Wed Jul-08-09 01:21 PM by will_5198

          

>There were
>people (Bernie Mac) in the crew with literally NOTHING to do.

I kinda forgot that most of the crew did absolutely nothing. but in a way, that kind of relates to its genius as a heist on Hollywood (if you want to look at it that way).

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ZooTown74
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Tue Jul-07-09 12:18 PM

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2. "A couple of big reasons why cats didn't like this movie"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jul-07-09 04:15 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

- Vincent Cassel's capioera breakdancing

- The Julia Roberts as Julia Roberts twist


As has been stated several times on here, I didn't have a problem with Ocean's 12 whatsoever... I don't believe that it's "definitely" better than 13, but it's still an enjoyable celebrity romp, which is really all it's supposed to be... all of the bitching about "plot" details and shit is/was extra... and I don't care if the stars and Soderbergh said that they didn't like it...
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Jimbo Jones
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Tue Jul-07-09 04:08 PM

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17. "That was the worst shit in any film ever made"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>- The Julia Roberts as Julia Roberts twist

  

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Frank Longo
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28. "Agreed. It made me check out mentally from the film."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

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jigga
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34. "Cant recall if the capioera breakdance came before that but those"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

2 scenes solidifed its wackness for me as well

  

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ZooTown74
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3. "The last 3 Michael Mann movies"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Public Enemies
Miami Vice
Collateral


Yeah.
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Basaglia
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Tue Jul-07-09 12:38 PM

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5. "wait....you tryna say collateral was bad? "
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

'cause you could throw the godfather under them two shits and make it look bad.

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SoulHonky
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8. "No. He's saying that they shouldn't be panned like they are."
In response to Reply # 5


          

I don't get how people defend Miami Vice. At least Public Enemies had its moments and was well made (although still way too long and pretty much soulless).

And I thought Collateral got a better reception. Maybe not. I thought it was OK but most people I know really liked it.

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mrhood75
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6. "Who talks shit about "Collateral"?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

I mean, really, that's one of my favorites by him.

I do think "Miami Vice" was pretty dull. I've tried to sit through unsuccessfully many a time. Have'n tseen Public Enemies.

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JAESCOTT777
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Wed Jul-08-09 09:08 AM

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21. "I coudlnt get into Miami Vice Loved Collateral"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

  

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ZooTown74
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33. "Okay fine, for those who say Why Collateral?, swap it out for Ali."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

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mrhood75
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4. "Matt Damon carried "Ocean's 12," to me"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The best and the funniest parts of that movie had to do with him. Mostly the one-liners and the little background comments he makes.

While I enjoyed the movie in general, I think it's biggest problem was the script really didn't give a lot of the characters anything to do. As in, taking Bernie Mac out of the equation half an hour in, then taking out nearly everyone else before the third act.

I liked the European setting, but the heists and the set-ups weren't as interesting as in the first and the third. Cassell was i-ight, but not really that compelling of a villain. I'll allow it, because the villains were the weak points of all three movies (though I thought Garcia and Pacino were both inoffensive).

So while I agree that it got a bad rap for being awful, I still prefer the other two.

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MANHOODLUM
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15. "co-sign (see my reply below) Damon was......."
In response to Reply # 4
Tue Jul-07-09 04:03 PM by MANHOODLUM

  

          

the only one, minus Ruben, who was a real "character", and Ruben had it easy 'cause he looked like he was having fun.

All the other actors looked like they were just being themselves, like it was a lunchbreak.

Plus, I watch all my movies w/ subtitles, since my ex-wife was from Puerto Rico and she didn't catch everything. I learned w/ subtitles, you catch alot of stuff. The background comments were gold.

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DavuFlint
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19. "yeah subtitles is the best way to watch Ocean's 12...."
In response to Reply # 15


          

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jigga
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7. "I liked the music in the scene when Pitt is spying on Jones"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

& that about it

>- Vincent Cassel is a more enjoyable villain than Garcia's
>overacted Benedict or Pacino's "WHOOHAH" version in 13,
>especially when pitted against the team in a spy-vs-spy sense
>(and you have to admire a man who wifed Monica Bellucci)

No he's not & no I don't & yes I am mad about it

>- Catherine Zeta Jones! She was at her sexual peak in this
>film

Intolerable Cruelty would like to have a word with you

and watching her take up screen time in heels and
>business dress was 100x more enjoyable than seeing Julia
>Roberts be the tipping point for a robbery

I'll give you that

  

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Ray_Snill
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32. "I agree on this point"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>Intolerable Cruelty would like to have a word with you


I actually liked Intolerable Cruelty cause she looked so damn good in it!


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SoulHonky
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9. "Force 10 from Navarone"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's definitely not anywhere near as good as The Guns of Navarone but it's a fun popcorn war movie with some great twists.

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ZooTown74
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12. "Yes! The Harrison Ford joint"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

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noahbird
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10. "I think Ocean's 12 is the best of them all"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Reading Ebert's review really put me in the right mindset to enjoy the film. Swipe from the full review at http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041209/REVIEWS/41122004/1023:

"The movie takes inventory of its characters with the same droll wit it does everything else. The original original "Ocean's 11," made in 1960 by the Rat Pack, was a send-up of 1950s caper movies (it was inspired by Jean-Pierre Melville's French classic "Bob le Flambeur"). The new original "Ocean's Eleven" (2001) was a successful attempt by Soderbergh to doodle with the formula, much as a pianist might pick out a tune just well enough to show he could play it if he wanted to. Now, with "Ocean's Twelve," Soderbergh and his scenarists, George Clayton Johnson, Jack Golden Russell and George Nolfi, are doing a jazz riff. This isn't a caper movie at all, it's an improvisation on caper themes. If at times it seems like a caper, well, as the fellow said when he got up from the piano, it might not be Beethoven, but it has a lot of the same notes."

I think he's right - the movie doesn't exactly make sense; I think the plot is really just a loose excuse to hang various vingets on. To me it's like watching a bunch of artists (director, actors, etc) at the top of their craft just having a blast with each other, riffing on the idea of a caper movie.



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Buddy_Gilapagos
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13. "This is exactly why I like O12 the least."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>To me it's like watching a bunch of artists
>(director, actors, etc) at the top of their craft just having
>a blast with each other, riffing on the idea of a caper
>movie.

The first movie did this well, but the second movie was blatant st*rfucking navel gazing. Oh look at us, we are sooo cool. You audience should be just happy to watch us f*ck around. And what might have been a funny inside joke in another movie, The Julia Roberts as Julia Roberts twist, put the self indulgence over the top in this movie.


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spenzalii
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11. "12 was a'aight. Not great, but not terrible"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It was definitely lacking with a lot of the cast in limbo for stretches at a time. While the JR as JR twist was kinda bleah, I liked the Bruce cameo which made up for it a bit for me. I think what did it for me was the heist was actually a snatch and grab in the end, which was weak.

13 was pretty good, even being a retread and overacting Al. The nose played....

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MANHOODLUM
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14. "Ocean's 12 is one of the most underrated movies ever"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

MF all-star ensemble cast waited for the film/camera crew to leave after Ocean's 11< and made their OWN movie...just....talking....saying the first shit that came to their head, and then the companies marketed the SHIT out of it lol

Tailor-made, slick suits....hip-ass soundtrack, and exotic, wet, Euro-locales....

If anything, these MFs were making fun of themselves, and they looked like they had a hell of a time doing it.

LOLOL!! There were scenes where Amazing was actually HOLDING a camcorder...TAPING the shit.

Brad Pitt trying to keep from laughing?! check!

A heist movie with practically NO heist? check!

Rambling, bouncing dialogue between actors? check!

These MFs did everything but wink at the camera.

Truth be told, I don't know why this movie isn't seen as brilliant.

Now Ocean's 13?! That was mega meh. They all looked kind of bored doing it. They really phoned it in, and they tried to get "serious" again, but it wasn't close to clever. Pacino gave a solid C performance, and that's bad, considering his part consisted of "Be the biggest asshole these guys have ever seen". Pacino basically coasted on being a rich, pompous asshole. Bravo.

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Iltigo
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18. "my favorite aspect of 12 was actually in the making"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

as the story goes, catherine zeta jones shows up the first day of shooting and has her line prepared and is ready to go.

the guys are just sitting around bullshitin. she says hey and asked when they shoot.

pitt and clooney look at each other and say "oh, you thought we were shooting a movie...hahahaha" and went back to bullshittin'

that moment encapsulates the entire experience for me. just a bunch of friends hanging out with a loose script and a few cameras. chillin at a friends house for the summer with a camera crew and crafts services.

somehow, they were able to edit together their vacation footage and sell it as a movie, and that is awesome.

i love this movie for that

  

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magilla vanilla
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30. "Which actually puts it righ tin the spirit of the original Oceans 11"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

That shit was just the 'Pack bullshitting with each other.

  

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CaptNish
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20. "IMHO: 13 > 12> 11"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.

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cereffusion
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22. "Miracle at St. Anna"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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will_5198
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24. "ha. I hated that shit."
In response to Reply # 22


          

but let me nominate She Hate Me in its place. I don't remember a single thing plot-wise from that film but any movie that has a Kerry Washington/Dania Ramirez lesbian sex scene has some type of redeemable value to society.

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Frank Longo
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27. "Wow, I agree with Cere."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

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las raises
Member since Aug 31st 2002
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Wed Jul-08-09 01:05 PM

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23. "I actually enjoy all 3 of the movies"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

just fun movies overall

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Wed Jul-08-09 07:12 PM

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26. "see...12 was my favorite."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-08-09 07:17 PM by BrooklynWHAT

  

          

i liked the JR as JR bit.

the movie had swag for days and the twist was awesome.

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Frank Longo
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29. "Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Funnier than people remember.

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magilla vanilla
Member since Sep 13th 2002
18215 posts
Wed Jul-08-09 09:51 PM

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31. "I think I may actually like it, as a movie, better than Pet Detective"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

PD gets the shine for springing Carrey worldwide, but Nature was a tighter plot, the opening with Ace in the Tibetan monestary was hilarious. I remember when it came out, critics panned the Rhino scene for being a bite of Richard Pryor. NO SHIT! it's an homage; Carrey's a standup first and foremost. Shit, he did an entire movie about Andy Kaufman.

  

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