"Poll question: Which "Goodfellas" character was more wrong?"
I just watched "Goodfellas" for the first time in a few years and it occurred to me: Henry Hill ratted everyone out to save his own neck, but Jimmy used all those guys to pull the lufthansa heist, killed everybody and kept the money for himself...aside from the money he kicked upstairs to Paulie, but that was it.
Yeah, everybody was fucking up with spending their cuts before they actually got them, and yes, it's possible Morrie would have dropped a dime if he had gotten busted, but in the grand scheme of things, was Jimmy really any better than Henry in the end? He turned on everyone for his own best interest just like Henry did. Only difference was, he didn't do it with the police.
Poll result (25 votes)
Jimmy- Killed all the guys who pulled the Lufthansa heist
23. "Okay, so where do we stand on him killing Billy Bats?" In response to Reply # 7
Obviously, dude was a made guy and we just breaking balls.
On the other hand, dude probably went way too far with it, even though he was drunk. He needed to reign that shit in. Don't know if it justified killing him though.
24. "if Spider killed Tommy, it would've been like Tommy killing Bats" In response to Reply # 23
though i'm not sure if spider was as insecure as Tommy was lol.
i mean if anything it was a dumb move on Tommy's part since it was the main reason he wound up dead, but you at least *get* his frustration in that scene. Bats is clowning him in front of his girl and both groups of friends. Bats was probably Tommy's version of Tommy back in the day. you saw his reaction when he realized Billy was there.
one thing i LOVE about that scene to this day was how quick Jimmy had his back. he knew what Tommy was about to do when he walked in and didn't hesitate for a second to go all in.
25. "RE: if Spider killed Tommy, it would've been like Tommy killing Bats" In response to Reply # 24
>one thing i LOVE about that scene to this day was how quick >Jimmy had his back. he knew what Tommy was about to do when he >walked in and didn't hesitate for a second to go all in.
Yep, I always loved that shit too. Henry pretty much knew what time it was too. As soon as Tommy takes the first swing, he locks the door and doesn't say shit. Pretty miuch Henry's whole steez.
52. "RE: if Spider killed Tommy, it would've been like Tommy killing Bats" In response to Reply # 25 Thu Jan-28-10 09:08 PM by Kozmikblak
> >>one thing i LOVE about that scene to this day was how quick >>Jimmy had his back. he knew what Tommy was about to do when >he >>walked in and didn't hesitate for a second to go all in. > >Yep, I always loved that shit too. Henry pretty much knew what >time it was too. As soon as Tommy takes the first swing, he >locks the door and doesn't say shit. Pretty miuch Henry's >whole steez. > That pretty much Henry's whole steez cause he's telling the story. To keep his deal he could not have actually killed anyone. Help dispose of bodies and evidence yeah but not actually kill them. Most likely he has physically participated in killing someone. No one is going to let you hang around while they do "all" the killing and you just watch. Nope won't happen. Especially how paranoid those guys are.
33. "Probably because no one could really "connect" him..." In response to Reply # 32
...to the murder.
There were a ton of witnesses who were in the bar/restaurant when Billy was breaking Tommy's balls, and witnessed Tommy flipping his fucking wig. The next day, Bats comes up missing. Not a huge whodunit. They probably suspected Jimmy and Henry were involved, but had nothing to back it up. Now, I would imagine that a crime family doesn't always require incontravertable evidence to wack someone, but Jimmy and Henry were still top money-earners for them.
46. "Didn't Tommy yell, 'YOU BOUGHT YOUR BUTTON!!'?" In response to Reply # 24
Like somehow, Billy Bats wasn't respected as a "made guy", even though he was made. I always thought that line showed that maybe Bats was a good earner, and got made on the strength.
Plus, it was his welcome party, and there was like 2 people there lol
When Tommy got clipped, even tho it was the rules, Hill referred to it as "old, greaseball shit"...as if Tommy got clipped on a matter of old school principle BECAUSE Bats was made, other than Bats being made (if that makes sense).
i've seen it at least a hundred times and never heard that. just played the clip and there it is... TWICE lol.
>Plus, it was his welcome party, and there was like 2 people >there lol
LOL
>When Tommy got clipped, even tho it was the rules, Hill >referred to it as "old, greaseball shit"...as if Tommy got >clipped on a matter of old school principle BECAUSE Bats was >made, other than Bats being made (if that makes sense). > >Bats just didn't seem to be a man of respect.
never really looked at it like that but it makes sense
dula dibiasi Member since Apr 05th 2004 21925 posts
Sun Jun-07-09 06:46 PM
14. "basically... "THIS FILM HAS BEEN FORMATTED FOR LEGAL IMPLICATIONS"" In response to Reply # 6
lol... henry the saint. foh.
___
it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
31. "RE: basically... "THIS FILM HAS BEEN FORMATTED FOR LEGAL IMPLICATIONS"" In response to Reply # 14
He's far from a saint. But, I see why the feds went after him. Think about it. Its not like the mob would make him a made man. What would he have gotten out of it, by keeping his mouth shut? And, Paulie was already pissed at him. He knew that Jimmy would have tried to kill him. Being a snitch was really his only option, other than going to jail.
"We don't make mistakes, we just have happy little accidents" - Bob Ross
"I'm wearing a MSU Tshirt because I went to MSU, you are wearing a UM Tshirt because you went to Walmart!" -unknown.
11. "If Henry didn't snitch they would've killed him anyway" In response to Reply # 0
Out of fear that he'd snitch. He knew the reality did what he had to do. either way, his legacy was gonna down as Henry the Rat so fuck it.
Paulie couldn't trust him after the whole drug thing, Jimmy was a paranoid psycho whose solution to everything was murder. Niether of them wanted to do it, and the fact that they waited was a testament to how much they liked Henry. Unfortunately for them they waited too long.
12. "SO many different levels of disappointment for Paulie" In response to Reply # 11
Henry essentially did everything Paulie told him not to do when he got of prison: Don't do too much with Jimmy and Tommy? Brought them into the drug deals Don't get involved in drugs? Went right back to his Pittsburgh connection Don't get him thrown in jail? Did that too.
I'm wondering if Paulie would have killed Jimmy and Henry. Sometimes I think he would have killed them both, but sometimes I think Jimmy was planning to kill Henry to save his own ass from Paulie.
I apologize for not putting a Tommy choice up in the original post, but Tommy kind of goes without saying after all he did.
>I'm wondering if Paulie would have killed Jimmy and Henry. >Sometimes I think he would have killed them both, but >sometimes I think Jimmy was planning to kill Henry to save his >own ass from Paulie.
Henry says this actually:
"I knew Paulie was still pissed at me and he's such a hot head. And I was worried about Jimmy. See, Jimmy knew if Paulie found out he was in the drug deals with me, Paulie would have Jimmy whacked even before me."
16. "Plus Paulie was fuckin Karen" In response to Reply # 13
That didn't make the movie, probably to have amore sympathetic Karen, but Henry Hill has stated that he had solid evidence that Paulie was taking liberties with his wife. Henry couldn't say shit because, hey, that's the boss. Karen didn't do much to dampen Henry's suspicions neither.
Now when there’s ever any doubt as to whether they’re getting their full share or not, trust that they’re going to take what they feel their full share SHOULD BE. Jimmy Burke had no recourse, even though he’d risen just about as far as a non-Italian could go in the mafia, because he would lose any sit-down with any capo, and definitely any boss, who laid a claim to the money. I think part of the expediency and ferocity in getting rid of the Lufthansa criminals was on orders of the bigger names getting involved and not wanting to be tied to it by any low-level drug addict connected guy
20. "wow i never knew that" In response to Reply # 16
>That didn't make the movie, probably to have amore >sympathetic Karen, but Henry Hill has stated that he had solid >evidence that Paulie was taking liberties with his wife. Henry >couldn't say shit because, hey, that's the boss. Karen didn't >do much to dampen Henry's suspicions neither.
was it in wise guy? if it is i guess i don't remember it.
>Now when there’s ever any doubt as to whether they’re getting >their full share or not, trust that they’re going to take what >they feel their full share SHOULD BE. Jimmy Burke had no >recourse, even though he’d risen just about as far as a >non-Italian could go in the mafia, because he would lose any >sit-down with any capo, and definitely any boss, who laid a >claim to the money. I think part of the expediency and >ferocity in getting rid of the Lufthansa criminals was on >orders of the bigger names getting involved and not wanting to >be tied to it by any low-level drug addict connected guy
interesting stuff. i never really thought of the killings as Jimmy acting on orders from above. if anything i thought Jimmy's reason for killing the those guys was because Paulie and the Luchesee's were reaching too far in his pockets, and he found himself losing money, so the murders were a way for him to cut costs. that and in case someone snitched.
29. "RE: wow i never knew that" In response to Reply # 20
I remember hearing that. I think it was mentioned in this book that was exclusively about Lufthansa, called The Heist. I don't think Paulie and Karen was mentioned in in Wiseguy, but it's been years since I read it.
Henry Hill's a minor player in The Heist, which focuses a lot on Jimmy and Paulie. There was a woman Paulie was messing around with that ratted on him and he had her chopped up, put in a trunk and thrown in the ocean. Dude didn't play. <----My debut album cover
17. "Remember it was told from HH POV..." In response to Reply # 0
and he was still a dick. Imagine if we got the whole story.
********** "See he's organized, and he's on the ball. Never miss a day of school,and he's a underdog. Wanna learn more and more, cuz his mama taught him good. He's about to change the face of yo ghetto neighborhood." (c) Badu
18. "RE: Remember it was told from HH POV..." In response to Reply # 17
I thought of this many times. He did seem a little too clean to have been that deep into the mob. I remember somewhere in Wiseguy (the book), he stressed over and over that he never killed anyone. I think he probably killed quite a few people, but there's no statute of limitations on murder and any thing he didn't admit to in his original deal that was later found out could void the deal and he could be prosecuted for it. Nicky Barnes said the same thing in Mr. Untouchable. He was really careful to not cop to any murders. He just kept saying "I heard" or "I was there, but"
Funny thing is both Nicky Barnes and Henry Hill were junkie assholes. <----My debut album cover
30. "he was drunk on Howard Stern MANY times" In response to Reply # 19
I remember they were talking about when they were writing Goodfellas and the book Wiseguys (I think that's what it was called) and they were getting information from Henry, he would call them up drunk in the middle of the night and ramble for hours.
27. "Henry Hill's snitching ass " In response to Reply # 0
that drug shit took a lot of mob bosses out the game easy, so Paulie's coldness to him (giving him a wad of cash and not killin him) was very generous imo. Especially after he TOLD him not to fuck with it.
Jimmy was wrong for killing all those people too, but at least some of um had it coming, buyin all kind of expensive flashy shit for the 'feds takin pictures'
28. "henry only because in his world, it was the bigger offence" In response to Reply # 0
but in the real wolrd, henry didnt kill anybody .
but come on, jimmy "did the right thing". he got rid of anyone that could bring the entire thing down. if they were made guys there woudl have been no problem. and in fact there was no dust up from jimmy cleaning house.
but henry sent folks upstate. he wasn't made, but still. he shared secrets with outsiders and talked... ________________________________________ It's A Boy and his name is MILES KHALIL YOUNG
36. "some Goodfellas fun facts" In response to Reply # 0
just stumbled onto this so i'm not sure how accurate it is (rubletummy could proababy confirm). covers some of the stuff being talked about in here though. biggest difference seems to be Paulie being far from the sweet old guy he is in the movie:
-Unlike the film, Karen Hill had an affair with Paul Vario (Paulie) while Henry was in jail. DiSimone also tried to have sex with Karen and when she refused, he tried to rape her. When Vario found out, he told the Gambino’s that Disimone had killed two other made men (that he had actually OK’ed). In 2007 Henry Hill confirmed that it was John Gotti who killed Tommy. It was always assumed it was payback for Billy Bats but it really wasn’t.
-Tommy (DiSimone) had a “closed casket” funeral not because he was shot in the face but because his body was and has never been found.
-Parnell “Stacks” Edwards (Samuel L. Jackson) was a supporter of the Black Panther Party and a good friend of Tommy. He actually did a lot of grunt work and credit card scams for James Burke (Jimmy The Gent) and sang weekly at Burke’s jazz lounge.
-Martin Krugman (Morrie) was not stabbed in the neck by Tommy as depicted in the film. DiSimone was in fact already dead when Burke decided to get rid of Krugman.
-Henry Hill was 7 years older than Tommy DiSimone and Tommy was actually a tall, burly enforcer who was killed at the age of 28. Not at all like the diminutive and much older Joe Pesci.
-Paul Vario Jr. actually introduced Henry to Karen and it was he who went on the first date with Henry. Not Tommy as depicted n the film.
-Paul Vario (Paul Sorvino) was actually prone to violent outbursts unlike his film characterization. He once took a then 13 year-old Hill with him to a barmaid’s house and proceeded to beat her with a baseball bat, breaking her collarbone in retaliation for the woman telling his wife of their affair.
-James Burke (DeNiro) was also known to be extremely violent and not at all cool like his film counterpart. The FBI estimated that he participated in 50 murders personally. He once almost strangled New York journalist Jimmy Breslin to death in front of a bar full of patrons for an accusatory article written about Paul Vario after the Lufthansa heist.
-Michael “Spider” Gianco was really shot in the chest by DiSimone for uttering “Go fuck yourself, Tommy.” However, DiSiomone was actually envious of Gianco and had publicly griped that the well liked Gianco, would be “made” before him.
-William “Billy Bats” Devino was held in a headlock by Burke and had his skull beaten in with the butt of a .38 revolver. He wasn’t kicked or stomped unconscious as the movie depicted. Hill also gave conflicting reports about him waking up. At first he states Devino was shot and stabbed but later on stated “He woke up and we stabbed him like 40 fuckin’ times.”
-James Burke attempted to kill Karen Hill and her two children when he suspected Henry of being an informant.
-After he was released from prison as a youth, Henry Hill joined the US Army and was stationed at Fort Bragg. He was a member of the 82nd Airborne Division.
-Paul Vario didn’t want anyone in his crew selling drugs not because he thought they were bad but because he felt that drug sentences were so long that anyone caught would “rat” him out that much quicker.
39. "Interesting. I knew some of the stuff from reading the book" In response to Reply # 36 Thu Jun-11-09 03:36 PM by mrhood75
Like about how it wasn't Tommy that went on the double date with Henry when he met Karen. For some reason I don't think it was Paulie Jr. who introduced them. I want to say it was another of Paulie's sons or one of Tommy's brother. Haven't read the book in like 10 years though, so I can't really remember.
Edit: I'd also heard the John Gotti thing. Or at least that he was there when it happened.
54. "RE: sidenote, the real-life henry hill is STILL fuckin up" In response to Reply # 49
I know these contracts never really expire, but most of the guys Henry was involved with are dead now and I'm sure the feds are waiting for any of the current people to take a shot at him so they can hem them up too.
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