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Subject: "Batman Graphic Novels" Previous topic | Next topic
little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 12:51 PM

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"Batman Graphic Novels"


  

          

I'm just getting into Batman graphic novels and was looking for suggestions, answers, etc. from you more experienced cats. I read Batman: Year One last night, bout to read The Killing Joke, and also bought The Long Halloween and Dark Victory. I've been trying to find The Dark Knight Returns for ages now cuz everyone says it's crazy, but it's sold out all across the city (should be getting it soon tho, place in my neighbourhood is getting a shipment in tomorrow).

So apart from these aforementioned titles, what else should I look out for? Are there any other greats or "must-reads?" I'm thinking of buying Hush since I've heard a lot of people talking about it before, and the plot of Knightfall sounds dope, but then again I took a quick skim through it in the store and it looked a lot less dark and mature(?) than the ones above, you know, almost, cheesy or cartoony, meant for a younger audience (...I dunno, maybe not, that's why I'm asking). Is it worth picking up? How bout The Man Who Laughs?

Any feedback would be great. Thanks in advance. Can't wait to read all these. Peace for now.

Music, movies, and everything in between: http://recordinglivefromsomewhere.com & http://twitter.com/marko_orlic

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Jul 29th 2008
1
Your pretty much on the right path
Jul 29th 2008
2
      RE: You're pretty much on the right path
Jul 29th 2008
3
      RE: You're pretty much on the right path
Jul 29th 2008
6
      RE: You're pretty much on the right path
Jul 29th 2008
10
           RE: You're pretty much on the right path
Jul 30th 2008
21
      RE: You're pretty much on the right path
Jul 29th 2008
8
      RE: You're pretty much on the right path
Jul 29th 2008
11
           RE: You're pretty much on the right path
Jul 30th 2008
22
      mike barr's 'son of the demon' was facemeltingly awesome.
Jul 30th 2008
19
      i thought HUSH was the prequel to TDKR
Jul 29th 2008
4
      RE: i thought HUSH was the prequel to TDKR
Jul 29th 2008
7
      RE: Your pretty much on the right path
Jul 29th 2008
5
      it' s not really such a prequel
Jul 30th 2008
20
RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Jul 29th 2008
9
RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Jul 29th 2008
12
      That was the illest shit to my 13 year old head
Jul 29th 2008
13
      RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Jul 30th 2008
23
           RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Jul 30th 2008
26
                RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Jul 30th 2008
30
                my bad, double post
Jul 30th 2008
31
                TDKR is whut got me INTO graphic novels
Jul 30th 2008
38
i hated Hush
Jul 29th 2008
14
Hush started out okay but got a bit tacky by the end
Jul 30th 2008
17
RE: Hush started out okay but got a bit tacky by the end
Jul 30th 2008
24
hush is something the nolan brothers would of written
Jul 30th 2008
39
      RE: hush is something the nolan brothers would of written
Jul 30th 2008
41
have you read Superman: Red Son?
Jul 29th 2008
15
RE: have you read Superman: Red Son?
Jul 30th 2008
25
      RE: have you read Superman: Red Son?
Jul 30th 2008
27
      i LOVED "The Ultimates"
Jul 30th 2008
28
      i don't like Superman, either
Jul 30th 2008
29
      RE: i don't like Superman, either
Jul 30th 2008
32
      i'm not a big Supes fan
Jul 30th 2008
35
      Superman sucks
Jul 30th 2008
43
      superman's a bitch, but red son is great
Jul 31st 2008
52
      I hate Supes too.
Aug 02nd 2008
69
Batman's also in Kingdom Come
Jul 29th 2008
16
^^^AMAZING^^^
Aug 03rd 2008
72
The Killing Joke...let's discuss
Jul 30th 2008
18
RE: The Killing Joke...let's discuss
Jul 30th 2008
34
RE: The Killing Joke...let's discuss
Jul 31st 2008
61
      that wasn't The Joker in the cell..
Aug 01st 2008
63
      RE: that wasn't The Joker in the cell..
Aug 01st 2008
64
           well..
Aug 03rd 2008
71
                RE: well..
Aug 03rd 2008
73
      RE: The Killing Joke...let's discuss
Aug 01st 2008
66
Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)
Jul 30th 2008
33
RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)
Jul 30th 2008
36
RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)
Jul 30th 2008
37
RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)
Jul 30th 2008
40
RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)
Jul 30th 2008
42
      RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)
Jul 30th 2008
45
           RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)
Jul 30th 2008
47
                yea...TDKR is usually considered the best one
Jul 30th 2008
48
I see your points (mostly in length)
Jul 30th 2008
44
well
Jul 31st 2008
49
RE: well
Jul 31st 2008
53
just one detail...
Jul 31st 2008
58
      RE: just one detail...
Jul 31st 2008
59
      they weren't even special anniversary issues or anything
Aug 01st 2008
67
i really enjoyed death and the maidens
Jul 30th 2008
46
yeah, that was pretty good
Jul 31st 2008
51
so did i.
Jul 31st 2008
60
if you can find 'blind justice', i recommend it
Jul 31st 2008
50
RE: if you can find 'blind justice', i recommend it
Jul 31st 2008
54
That one is GREAT!!!
Aug 03rd 2008
74
so apparently a lot of people don't like Superman
Jul 31st 2008
55
They need to see what Geoff Johns is doing with him..
Jul 31st 2008
56
      100% cosign
Aug 04th 2008
77
Not much of a Batman fan at all
Jul 31st 2008
57
I got a couple of these
Aug 01st 2008
62
RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Aug 01st 2008
65
long halloween
Aug 03rd 2008
76
RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Aug 05th 2008
78
      RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Aug 05th 2008
79
RE: Batman Graphic Novels
Aug 02nd 2008
68
Alright, im gonna need a little help here right quick
Aug 03rd 2008
70
The Dark Knight Returns
Aug 03rd 2008
75

little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 12:54 PM

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1. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Also, with the ones I've already mentioned, is there a certain order I should read them in? (I know Dark Victory is the sequel to The Long Halloween, but apart from that).

Music, movies, and everything in between: http://recordinglivefromsomewhere.com & http://twitter.com/marko_orlic

  

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El_Pistolero
Member since Dec 05th 2007
2664 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 02:21 PM

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2. "Your pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

All Star Batman and Robin is supposed to be a prequal to The Dark Knight returns.

---------------------------------------
So it goes.

  

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sithlord
Member since Aug 05th 2002
2832 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 03:18 PM

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3. "RE: You're pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Knightfall is enjoyable, but if you can find it, pick up the novelization of the story instead (or in addition to it if you want to read two different versions of the same story). Dennis O'Neill wrote the novelization. He was either the editor or a major writer of most Batman stories that came out in the 80s and 90s. He also wrote for The Animated Series. The graphic novels leave some elements out because it doesn't include other titles that were in the series. The novel fills in the blanks.

Catwoman, the original miniseries (which is called something else now) is a good companion piece to Batman: Year One because it gives some backstory to Selina and wraps into two of the scenes she's in in
Year One as well.

The Man Who Laughs is referenced a few times in "The Dark Knight" and is a pretty good story. There's another short story at the end of the graphic novel that's pretty good as well. Steer clear of "The Joker's Last Laugh" though. That sucked.

Also, if you want to get some insight in the dark turn in Batman starting in 1987, pick up "A Death in the Family" which was and still is pretty damn awesome. That's the one where Joker kills Robin, in case you didn't know. That shit made headlines at the time because DC killed off Robin (even though it wasn't Dick Grayson) and because the fans voted for them to kill Robin.

Hush is dope, but stay away from Hush Returns. If you're a completist, pick up The Dark Knight Strikes Again, but it wasn't as good as The Dark Knight Returns. I've heard No Man's Land was great as well, but I haven't found all of the books yet, so I haven't bought it.

Also, Batman: Year Three is nicely done, as is A Lonely Place of Dying. there's also a one shot featuring Harley Quinn that introduces her into the books.

I know I'm leaving something out, but if you pick up all of those books, you're on your way. That'll also help you establish what style of stories you like.

There are two others, Son of the Demon and Digital Justice that are good as well, but I don't know if you'll be able to find them. Digital Justice was a completely computer animated graphic novel that takes place 50 years into the future with Gordon's grandson, I think becoming Batman. Son of the Demon should have been the origin story of Damien, since Bruce Wayne gets Talia pregnant, but she gives the baby away after telling him she had a miscarriage, but I've read that Damien was explained a different way.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 03:34 PM

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6. "RE: You're pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

wow, that was in-depth, really appreciate it
thanks a lot, i'll definitely look out for those

yeah, i was reading about A Death In The Family, sounded pretty intense, i'll have to get my hands on a copy of that

haha, why were the fans so keen on killing of robin, too corny? or...

  

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sithlord
Member since Aug 05th 2002
2832 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 03:59 PM

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10. "RE: You're pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

No problem.

The fans hated Jason Todd as Robin because he was too whiny and pretty much the anti-Dick Grayson. He also may or may not have killed someone leading up to A Death in the Family. It isn't mentioned in the story, but it was in one of the issues of Batman before that story started.

The story made him likable and explained a lot of his motivations which I guess was done to make the fans sympathize with him, but they still wanted him dead.

A couple of issues of Detective Comics (Issue 596, I think) "An American Batman in London" and two issues after that, which introduced Cornelius Stirk AKA The Fear were dope as well. But that could start a slippery slope of back issues that no one wants to fall into.


"I mean people think this business is all about money, sex and drugs. Well, it is. But you've also got to remember it is a business. So handle your business, pay your taxes and be on time.''
-The infinite wisdom of Juicy J of Three 6 Mafia

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 09:04 AM

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21. "RE: You're pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

ok, yeah, that's what i figured

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 03:37 PM

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8. "RE: You're pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

also, are all 3 volumes of knightfall worth reading, or just volume 1?

  

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sithlord
Member since Aug 05th 2002
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Tue Jul-29-08 04:01 PM

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11. "RE: You're pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

I'd say read all three because volume one literally ends with Bane breaking Bruce's back and throwing him down to the street. Plus the first issue is pure chaos. Bane's plan was ingenious and the story shows that. Batman had to go up against his entire rogue's gallery at once and then Bane attacked.

"I mean people think this business is all about money, sex and drugs. Well, it is. But you've also got to remember it is a business. So handle your business, pay your taxes and be on time.''
-The infinite wisdom of Juicy J of Three 6 Mafia

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Wed Jul-30-08 09:05 AM

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22. "RE: You're pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

ok, thanks, yeah i ws planning on reading all 3 anyway since i'm a completist more often than not

  

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shockzilla
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Wed Jul-30-08 02:56 AM

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19. "mike barr's 'son of the demon' was facemeltingly awesome."
In response to Reply # 3


          

i was actually disappointed with grant morrison's retelling of it.

  

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gluvnast
Member since Nov 19th 2006
2367 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 03:25 PM

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4. "i thought HUSH was the prequel to TDKR"
In response to Reply # 2
Tue Jul-29-08 03:26 PM by gluvnast

          

or maybe it was just me, because everything fitted in leading up to WHY he retired...especially with his impatience with the joker

there's alot of great batman graphic novels...the ONLY one i recommend NOT to get is the dark knight strikes again, which is the sequel to TDKR...i dunno whut frank miller was smoking when he done that one

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Tue Jul-29-08 03:35 PM

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7. "RE: i thought HUSH was the prequel to TDKR"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

oh man, i hear you
i skimmed through some of the The Dark Knight Strikes Again at the store and was basically disgusted with the artwork. it literally looked like a piece of shit
but yeah, thanks for the confirmation

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Tue Jul-29-08 03:30 PM

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5. "RE: Your pretty much on the right path"
In response to Reply # 2
Tue Jul-29-08 03:39 PM by little bredren

  

          

oh yeah i saw All Star the other day
thanks, i'll probably check it out after i'm done the ones i've already bought

  

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shockzilla
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Wed Jul-30-08 03:03 AM

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20. "it' s not really such a prequel"
In response to Reply # 2


          

nor is it a sequel to year one.

it's just miller.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Tue Jul-29-08 03:42 PM

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9. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

any other suggestions or comments?

also, i hope we can eventually get some detailed discussions of specific Batman graphic novels in this post if everyone's down

  

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sithlord
Member since Aug 05th 2002
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Tue Jul-29-08 04:04 PM

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12. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

I would be. As you can probably tell, I've got a lot to say about a lot of the graphic novels.

I have noticed the older Batman stuff is better than the new stuff a lot of the time, with the exception of Hush.

Also, in the 90s, there was a crossover where Batman and Spawn teamed up. I don't remember it being too great, but it is worth a buy just because Spawn kills Batman and brings him back to life, just because he can.


"I mean people think this business is all about money, sex and drugs. Well, it is. But you've also got to remember it is a business. So handle your business, pay your taxes and be on time.''
-The infinite wisdom of Juicy J of Three 6 Mafia

  

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KneelB4Me
Member since Apr 06th 2005
4473 posts
Tue Jul-29-08 04:26 PM

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13. "That was the illest shit to my 13 year old head"
In response to Reply # 12


          

>worth a buy just because Spawn kills Batman and brings him
>back to life, just because he can.


Top Flight Security of the WORLD, Craig!

http://www.thecanvasexchange.com/member.php - Peep my shit!

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 09:07 AM

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23. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

haha that's pretty funny

hey sithlord, since u seem to have read pretty much every batman story, would u mind ranking the graphic novels from best to worst for me when u get a chance, just so i know which to check out before others
anyone else, please feel free to do the same
it'd be a big help

  

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sithlord
Member since Aug 05th 2002
2832 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 10:07 AM

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26. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
In response to Reply # 23
Wed Jul-30-08 10:14 AM by sithlord

  

          

No problem. As of 10:00 CST on July 31, my list is:

1. The Killing Joke
2. Batman: Year One
3. Son of the Demon
4. A Death in the Family
5. The Cult (I left that out because it was a four issue limited series, but I think it has been collected into one graphic novel now)
6. Hush
7. Dark Victory
8. The Dark Knight Returns
9. The Long Halloween
10. The Man Who Laughs

Dark Knight Returns is low on my list because I came to it late. I initially didn't like the way it was illustrated until I read Sin City (weird how that works, but it made me okay with Miller's work). It's a great story, but I had already formed my opinion about the others. The top three shaped my feelings about Batman as a character, so there's some sentimentality there. However, If you read these books, I think you'll be well versed in Batman.

I also recently re-read "Gotham by Gaslight", which is a re-imagining of Batman in the Victorian era investigating Jack the Ripper in Gotham. It isn't a bad read. It isn't great, but it isn't a complete waste of time either.

I've read a few others that were passable like "City of Crime", which was way too long and boring in the middle. I've heard good things about "Bruce Wayne: Murderer", which is about Bruce, obviously being framed for murder. Batman can't clear him because he's under surveillance and I think gets arrested. That's another series I haven't read because it stretches over three or four volumes that I can never find all at once. Arkham Asylum gave me a headache because the art was so out there. I need to read it again because I read it when I was 15 and I think it might have gone over my head.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 10:47 AM

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30. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
In response to Reply # 26
Wed Jul-30-08 11:05 AM by little bredren

  

          

dope, thanks again

interesting list
i've read about a bunch of these and they do sound great

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 10:55 AM

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31. "my bad, double post"
In response to Reply # 30
Wed Jul-30-08 11:06 AM by little bredren

  

          

my bad, double post

  

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gluvnast
Member since Nov 19th 2006
2367 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 11:48 AM

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38. "TDKR is whut got me INTO graphic novels"
In response to Reply # 26


          

but that was way back in '86 when comic books were "supposely" for kids...i read that shit and thought this is the illest book i've ever read, and amazed that any comic book would of pulled this type of book off


i'm suprise that noone mentioned arhkam asylum...i've been looking for that book like forever

  

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ternary_star
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Tue Jul-29-08 04:58 PM

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14. "i hated Hush"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke and Year One are by far my favorites.

the writing in Hush was confusing and corny to me. I barely got through it.

  

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will_5198
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Wed Jul-30-08 12:44 AM

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17. "Hush started out okay but got a bit tacky by the end"
In response to Reply # 14


          

I'd never read it again

--------

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 09:09 AM

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24. "RE: Hush started out okay but got a bit tacky by the end"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

so it seems to me, according to okayplayer, as well as other boards i've checked out, that Hush is pretty hit or miss, love it or hate it
hmmm, now i'm not sure whether to pick it up or not
i did find the illustrations a bit too new/futuristic looking...but the story seems kinda dope

  

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gluvnast
Member since Nov 19th 2006
2367 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 11:51 AM

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39. "hush is something the nolan brothers would of written"
In response to Reply # 14


          

because you are forced to pay attention to detail, there's so many back flashes, and so many twists throughout the entire story, like almost every chapter ends up being a twist to it...

i found it great, personally...especially once you realize who've been behind the whole thing overall, and also appeared to be the perfect setup for TDKR

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Wed Jul-30-08 12:01 PM

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41. "RE: hush is something the nolan brothers would of written"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

thanks for letting me know
sounds like my kind of Batman
k, eff it, i'm definitely gonna buy Hush

  

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ternary_star
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Tue Jul-29-08 04:59 PM

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15. "have you read Superman: Red Son?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

obviously not about Batman, but he plays a key role in it.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
3286 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 09:14 AM

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25. "RE: have you read Superman: Red Son?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

i haven't actually read Red Son, but a friend of mine told me to check it out
thing is tho, i sort of hate superman (i know, i know, blasphemy right)
i've always found him mad boring and way too powerful
is Red Son really that good?
also, i guess while we're at it, apart from Batman graphic novels and Watchmen, what are the best superhero graphic novels around? (by superhero, i'm referring to mainly DC and Marvel characters, not stories like Y: The Last Man or what have you)

  

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sithlord
Member since Aug 05th 2002
2832 posts
Wed Jul-30-08 10:19 AM

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27. "RE: have you read Superman: Red Son?"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

Red Son was pretty ill when you think of the fact that Superman could have just as easily landed in Russia.

Batman had a glorified cameo in it, but the book was pretty good. You won't be wasting your time reading it.

"I mean people think this business is all about money, sex and drugs. Well, it is. But you've also got to remember it is a business. So handle your business, pay your taxes and be on time.''
-The infinite wisdom of Juicy J of Three 6 Mafia

  

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ternary_star
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28. "i LOVED "The Ultimates""
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

it's a modern re-telling of The Avengers (Captain America, Giant Man, The Wasp, Thor, Iron Man and Bruce Banner) done in a summer blockbuster style.

Vol. 1 & 2 are available in a really nice hardcover format with a cool writer/artist commentary in the back.

i can't reccommend it enough.

  

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ternary_star
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29. "i don't like Superman, either"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

that's actually the only Superman book i've ever read...but it's a great story.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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32. "RE: i don't like Superman, either"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

oh alright, damn, well I might have to read it if another fellow Superman-hater enjoyed it

Ultimates sounds good too, thanks

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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35. "i'm not a big Supes fan"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

something about him always screamed GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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will_5198
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43. "Superman sucks"
In response to Reply # 25


          

only time I liked him was in Kingdom Come

--------

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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52. "superman's a bitch, but red son is great"
In response to Reply # 25


          

  

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KnowOne
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69. "I hate Supes too."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

n/m

_________________________________________
"Too weird to live.... too rare to die..."

PS+ ID: KnowOne215 | XBL GamerTag: KnowOne 215

  

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ternary_star
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16. "Batman's also in Kingdom Come"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i know these aren't strictly batman stories, but you already have all the must-reads

  

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Esco
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72. "^^^AMAZING^^^"
In response to Reply # 16


          

  

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El_Pistolero
Member since Dec 05th 2007
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18. "The Killing Joke...let's discuss"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Like any great literary work this book gets better every time you read it!

At first I thought it was pretty damn good. Then I re-read and liked it even more( I just read it a few months ago). And after I saw The Dark Knight I can appreciate it even more!

One, the art was sooo ahead of it's time! I know, I have the new version with the altered coloring ( which I think is better than the original) but it is simply amazing.

Two, I love how in some pages the very last panel shows a character in an identical position as a character int the very first panel of the first page, which gives it a cinematic feel.

Three, the story is just awesome!

---------------------------------------
So it goes.

  

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little bredren
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34. "RE: The Killing Joke...let's discuss"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

I'll be with you, right when I get a chance to read it, which'll probably be after a couple more days from now.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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61. "RE: The Killing Joke...let's discuss"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

okay...so i just read it

a couple of comments and a question
- i am so pissed that i got this new "re-colored" edition, i was not feeling the choice of colors at all, looked too cheap or something. i just took a look online at the original drawings and they were so much more raw, less refined, and just plain better. oh well...
- alan moore is just a great writer, i gotta admit, he's got some very gruesome, "mature," dark ideas
- at the very beginning of The Killing Joke, who is Batman referring to when he asks The Joker, "Where is he? Do you have any idea what you've unleashed" or something like that? cuz it was never explained (i guess it's irrelevant, but i'm just curious)

  

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topaz
Member since Nov 28th 2002
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63. "that wasn't The Joker in the cell.."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

>- at the very beginning of The Killing Joke, who is Batman
>referring to when he asks The Joker, "Where is he? Do you have
>any idea what you've unleashed" or something like that? cuz it
>was never explained (i guess it's irrelevant, but i'm just
>curious)

so he was asking where the real Joker was

-
Gang Starr / Nujabes blend - https://youtu.be/lsci1vu6ick
DOOM Tribute - https://youtu.be/qmBQ2BDefKM
Donut of the Heart cover in Javascript - https://youtu.be/afLc2CkC8lk

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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64. "RE: that wasn't The Joker in the cell.."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

ohhhhh, haha, damn i feel stupid
how are we supposed to know that tho, they looked pretty damn similar (although, yeah, i guess, i did notice a bit of a difference appearance-wise, the one at the beginning looked more bland)

  

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topaz
Member since Nov 28th 2002
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71. "well.."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

>ohhhhh, haha, damn i feel stupid
>how are we supposed to know that tho, they looked pretty damn
>similar (although, yeah, i guess, i did notice a bit of a
>difference appearance-wise, the one at the beginning looked
>more bland)

you could see the white makeup on Batman's hands, and Joker doesn't wear makeup..

-
Gang Starr / Nujabes blend - https://youtu.be/lsci1vu6ick
DOOM Tribute - https://youtu.be/qmBQ2BDefKM
Donut of the Heart cover in Javascript - https://youtu.be/afLc2CkC8lk

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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73. "RE: well.."
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

ok, yeah, that makes sense

  

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sithlord
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66. "RE: The Killing Joke...let's discuss"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

I'll get into this later.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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33. "Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

why is Year One considered SOOO great? Now, don't me wrong, I definitely enjoyed it and thought it was a solid story, but it seems like most people, websites, and lists all consider it the best Batman graphic novel of all time. Even though I haven't read any others yet, I'm a little bit surprised by this.

for one, i thought it was wayy too short - Miller left way to many things implied or unexplored, for instance, this "training" abroad for years, what exactly did he do? where did he go? who trained him? i felt it was too assumed and rushed, i dunno...

also, catwoman. she's inspired to dress up as a cat just cuz she see's batman fighting cops? no other motives or anything? again, too quick

wayne's decision to dress up as a bat --> a bat just randomly flies through his study's window and he says "aha! i shal be a bat!" too random in my opinion (i liked it much better in batman begins how he fell into the hole and bats scared the shit out of him)

the biggest action scene, the one with SWAT chasing him and blowing up the building, was kinda dissapointing, at least the build-up to it was --> it all started with Batman saving an old lady from being hit by a truck. couldn't he have done something more controversial or badass to make the cops get SWAT on his ass? and don't even get me started on Brendan dropping bombs on the building he was in - a little too unrealistic, that would never ever happen, cops cant just bomb buildings since they're gonna be torn down anyway

another problem --> we never saw how the costume came to be, etc.

lastly, how did Batman and Gordon become friends all of a sudden? they had no previous contact (not even a conversation) apart from wayne, unmasked, saving his baby. sure, Batman and Gordon had the same plan, to save Gotham city from its corruption, but a meeting between the two would have been nice, at least one, cuz even tho we know Gordon assumes Wayne is Batman, it's never 100% confirmed by him (just cuz Wayne saved his baby, doesn't mean he's Batman). and Wayne being the prime suspect for being Batman cuz his parents were killed 25 years ago and cuz he's rich? a little iffy if u ask me. Miller could have provided a more plausible or direct motive.

Once again though, don't get me wrong. I DID really enjoy Year One. Gordon was extremely badass, Gotham was very gloomy, Batman looked dope in action, realistic, wasn't flawless, knew he was lucky a bunch of times, but I just wish we got more detail and development. I really believe that we are given a great outline for a Batman origin story, but I just wished it was explored more in-depth. And that's why I'm surprised it's considered the best Batman graphic novel, nothing else.

Let me know what you all think.

oh wait, one more thing about Year One

i wish we were given more Bruce Wayne in this. we never really got to know who he is, what's he's about, his personailty, etc.

and I just realized, i may be unfair toward this graphic novel, since i'm probably comparing it all to Batman Begins, where everything was more fleshed out, so I do realize that I shouldn't really do that, but hey, I'm human too.

I also do give Miller mad props for re-introducing Bats and I do recognize how important it is to continuity/the Batman cannon. I also realize that it really influenced Batman Begins and essentially provided its bare bones (Nolan and Goyer essentially copied most of it, just expanded on it more).

  

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sithlord
Member since Aug 05th 2002
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36. "RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

I want to get into this (especially since I recently re-read Year One), but I'm at work, so it'll be a while before I can get to it.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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37. "RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

ok, no prob, whenever u get a chance

haha, i'm at work too, but i've managed to squeeze in some time for okp

  

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gluvnast
Member since Nov 19th 2006
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Wed Jul-30-08 11:55 AM

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40. "RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 33


          


>
>I also do give Miller mad props for re-introducing Bats and I
>do recognize how important it is to continuity/the Batman
>cannon. I also realize that it really influenced Batman Begins
>and essentially provided its bare bones (Nolan and Goyer
>essentially copied most of it, just expanded on it more).


all of your questions, batman begins mostly filled up those voids

  

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little bredren
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42. "RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

oh, for sure, but i just wished it could have been done in the comics medium, as well, or maybe in a different way

  

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sithlord
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45. "RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>>why is Year One considered SOOO great?

At the time it was published, a lot about Batman's origin was still up in the air. The dead parents thing was out there, but everything leading up to it was still new. It was explored over and over and over and over and over and over and over, etc leading up to and after the original Tim Burton Batman. Since then, we've gotten little pieces of it here and there. Most of the training stuff is canon now, but at the time it came out, it was unique

>>for one, i thought it was wayy too short - Miller left way to many things implied or unexplored, for instance, this "training" abroad for years, what exactly did he do? where did he go? who trained him? i felt it was too assumed and rushed, i dunno...

Reading it now, it does seem to rushed and short. However, the story deals with his life in Gotham as he becomes Batman, not the training.


>>also, catwoman. she's inspired to dress up as a cat just cuz she see's batman fighting cops? no other motives or anything? again, too quick

My perspective on this is skewed because I read the Catwoman miniseries first and then read Year One. Ironically, I bought them at the same time. She seems kind of tossed in for the hell of it.

>>wayne's decision to dress up as a bat --> a bat just randomly flies through his study's window and he says "aha! i shal be a bat!" too random in my opinion (i liked it much better in batman begins how he fell into the hole and bats scared the shit out of him)

Part of the bits and pieces of origin we got leading up to Year One actually mentioned him falling into the hole and being frightened by the bats, which makes the bat flying through the study window make more sense.

>>the biggest action scene, the one with SWAT chasing him and blowing up the building, was kinda dissapointing, at least the build-up to it was --> it all started with Batman saving an old lady from being hit by a truck. couldn't he have done something more controversial or badass to make the cops get SWAT on his ass?

Two things, this was an example, an extreme example, but still an example of how lawless the law in Gotham was at the time. Brenden was known to be excessive and Loeb wanted Batman dead because he was pressuring the politicians.

Saving the old lady planted the seed in Gordon's head that Batman wasn't a criminal. He was protecting the innocent. It also had something to do with Batman still being new to the game. Saving a baglady to the expert Batman would probably involved a batarang.

another problem --> we never saw how the costume came to be, etc.

The book was written when everything didn't have to be explained and some stuff was left to the imagination. That's the best I could come up with.

>>lastly, how did Batman and Gordon become friends all of a sudden?
Bottom line, he saved Gordon's kid.


>>they had no previous contact (not even a conversation) apart from wayne, unmasked, saving his baby. sure, Batman and Gordon had the same plan, to save Gotham city from its corruption, but a meeting between the two would have been nice, at least one, cuz even tho we know Gordon assumes Wayne is Batman, it's never 100% confirmed by him (just cuz Wayne saved his baby, doesn't mean he's Batman). and Wayne being the prime suspect for being Batman cuz his parents were killed 25 years ago and cuz he's rich? a little iffy if u ask me. Miller could have provided a more plausible or direct motive.

Wayne was in disguise and Gordon didn't have his glasses. He had already established the fact that he didn't don the costume in the daytime and he had been in disguise before. Gordon suspected Wayne but couldn't prove it. He suspected Dent too. Bruce Wayne puts up the front that he's so much of a joke that he couldn't be Batman. there was nothing more to say other than the fact that he had the motive and the resources to be Batman. However, he also had multiple alibis during all of the sitings. Miller did have a lot of storytelling lapses in hindsight, but if you subtract what you know now from the story, it makes more sense.

>>>Once again though, don't get me wrong. I DID really enjoy Year One. Gordon was extremely badass, Gotham was very gloomy, Batman looked dope in action, realistic, wasn't flawless, knew he was lucky a bunch of times, but I just wish we got more detail and development. I really believe that we are given a great outline for a Batman origin story, but I just wished it was explored more in-depth. And that's why I'm surprised it's considered the best Batman graphic novel, nothing else.

The story pretty much was an outline. A lot of stuff has been built on it since then. It's almost like that was part of the plan. I've never heard it ranked as the best graphic novel. I've always heard either The Killing Joke or The Dark Knight Returns.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Wed Jul-30-08 03:48 PM

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47. "RE: Batman: Year One Discussion (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 45
Wed Jul-30-08 03:49 PM by little bredren

  

          

>Reading it now, it does seem to rushed and short. However, the
>story deals with his life in Gotham as he becomes Batman, not
>the training.

ur right, i mean, gotham WAS the focus, but i just felt that we could have had a little extra insight as to how he trained

>My perspective on this is skewed because I read the Catwoman
>miniseries first and then read Year One. Ironically, I bought
>them at the same time. She seems kind of tossed in for the
>hell of it.

haha yeah, that's exactly how i felt, as if miller just threw her in there just for the sake of having catwoman a part of the story. nevertheless, i did like her origin as a prostitute, and her meddling with Batman's plans, pissed off due to being called Batman's "assistant," etc.

>Two things, this was an example, an extreme example, but still
>an example of how lawless the law in Gotham was at the time.
>Brenden was known to be excessive and Loeb wanted Batman dead
>because he was pressuring the politicians.

Now that i think about it more, it DOES make sense, and shows how corrupt both Loeb and Brenden truly were

>Saving the old lady planted the seed in Gordon's head that
>Batman wasn't a criminal. He was protecting the innocent. It
>also had something to do with Batman still being new to the
>game. Saving a baglady to the expert Batman would probably
>involved a batarang.

fair enough, i just hoped that he would have done something more difficult/heroic than just saving an old woman from a truck, which any athletic man could potentially do

>another problem --> we never saw how the costume came to be,
>etc.
>
>The book was written when everything didn't have to be
>explained and some stuff was left to the imagination. That's
>the best I could come up with.

i dunno, i think it's a pretty big hole, i mean, the batsuit is one of the coolest things about Batman, they should have elaborated on it, although the references to the belt, the sonar bat-caller thing, and the glider WERE dope

>>>lastly, how did Batman and Gordon become friends all of a
>sudden?
>Bottom line, he saved Gordon's kid.

well, i undestand THAT, but apart from being thankful, Gordon never actually had a conversation with Batman about anything

>The story pretty much was an outline. A lot of stuff has been
>built on it since then. It's almost like that was part of the
>plan.

that does kind of work out well in the end, i suppose, but i'm not sure it was deliberate

>I've never heard it ranked as the best graphic novel.
>I've always heard either The Killing Joke or The Dark Knight
>Returns.

well maybe it's not, but according to the places i've checked, IGN's list, Time Magazine's list (i think. might've been another magazine or website), DC discussion boards, it is. But it's probably number 1 becuase of it's importance in continuity, influence, etc. not because of how good it actually was

  

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gluvnast
Member since Nov 19th 2006
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Wed Jul-30-08 07:15 PM

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48. "yea...TDKR is usually considered the best one"
In response to Reply # 47


          

mainly because at the time it was groundbreaking....frank miller wouldn't be where he is today had it not been for that graphic novel

BTW, as much as i love frank miller and sin city and 300....i ALWAYS felt that he's extremely overated

alan moore is the G.O.A.T. when it comes to graphic novels

  

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will_5198
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44. "I see your points (mostly in length)"
In response to Reply # 33


          

which is why I think Dark Knight Returns is better

--------

  

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shockzilla
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Thu Jul-31-08 03:03 AM

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49. "well"
In response to Reply # 33
Thu Jul-31-08 03:04 AM by shockzilla

          

>for one, i thought it was wayy too short - Miller left way to
>many things implied or unexplored, for instance, this
>"training" abroad for years, what exactly did he do? where did
>he go? who trained him? i felt it was too assumed and rushed,
>i dunno...

i think batman's training is MUCH better left to the imagination. when you flesh it out too much, it becomes too implausible. he mastered all these different types of martial arts and honed his detective skills in just ten years?


>also, catwoman. she's inspired to dress up as a cat just cuz
>she see's batman fighting cops? no other motives or anything?
>again, too quick

she was obviously already a cat lover, though


>wayne's decision to dress up as a bat --> a bat just randomly
>flies through his study's window and he says "aha! i shal be a
>bat!" too random in my opinion (i liked it much better in
>batman begins how he fell into the hole and bats scared the
>shit out of him)

the bat flying into his study comes from bob kane's telling of batman's origin. the 'batman begins' sequence was lifted straight from miller's TDKR. both can co-exist.



>I also do give Miller mad props for re-introducing Bats and I
>do recognize how important it is to continuity/the Batman
>cannon. I also realize that it really influenced Batman Begins
>and essentially provided its bare bones (Nolan and Goyer
>essentially copied most of it, just expanded on it more).

it's difficult to overestimate how influential batman: year one was.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-31-08 10:12 AM

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53. "RE: well"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

fair enough, dope points
i see where ur coming from

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jul-31-08 03:06 PM

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58. "just one detail..."
In response to Reply # 33
Thu Jul-31-08 03:06 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

Year one was originally not published as a Graphic Novel but "just" four regular-length issues in the Batman magazine that didn't follow the regular storyline going at that time (not to mention that it featured a different writer and artist) which meant that the brevity you complain about was pretty much unavoidable.

Anyway, I dug it (and still do) because it basically has the type of "noir" vibe that I think is miller's strongest point as a storyteller, I LOVE Mazzuchelli's art as well (their collaboration in Daredevil-"Born again"-is even better though). "Dark knight returns" started off well but fell off in the last issue and a half because Miller became too ambitious and pretentious (truth be told, there were some problems from the start though), I always prefered "Year one" for that reason...

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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59. "RE: just one detail..."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

yeah i really did enjoy the noir feel to it and the illustrations were pretty much amazing, i'll give u that

  

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shockzilla
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67. "they weren't even special anniversary issues or anything"
In response to Reply # 58


          

batman 402-405, i think

  

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The Goldng Child
Member since Jun 27th 2002
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46. "i really enjoyed death and the maidens"
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but then again, i'm a big ra's al ghul fan.

  

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shockzilla
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51. "yeah, that was pretty good"
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rucka should do more batman

i'd rather him on detective than dini

and i like the demon a lot as well

batman begins was disappointing in that regard.

  

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justin_scott
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60. "so did i."
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had all the issues laying around. didn't know what it was about. as soon as i read it was about ra's, i read it, and it was very good.

************************************************************

  

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shockzilla
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50. "if you can find 'blind justice', i recommend it"
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Thu Jul-31-08 03:10 AM by shockzilla

          

it was originally ran in detective comics, leading to and including issue#600. it was written by sam hamm, the guy who wrote burton's batman, but it has quite a different tone.

it introduces henri ducard and puts bruce through the wringer.

and there are various stories from the long defunct legends of the dark knight that are worth checking out, particularly grant morrison's 'gothic'

  

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sithlord
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54. "RE: if you can find 'blind justice', i recommend it"
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Blind Justice was crazy. I actually wouldn't mind reading that again.

I think "The Man Who Laughs" was in Legends of the Dark Knight as well.

"I mean people think this business is all about money, sex and drugs. Well, it is. But you've also got to remember it is a business. So handle your business, pay your taxes and be on time.''
-The infinite wisdom of Juicy J of Three 6 Mafia

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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74. "That one is GREAT!!!"
In response to Reply # 50
Sun Aug-03-08 08:36 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

As for some of the early stuff in "Legends of the dark knight", I'm still pissed off that the swedish Batman magazine was cancelled before the "Poison"-storyline (which wasn't very good if I remember correctly but still...) was concluded, I still haven't read the ending.

Anyway, "Blind Justice" is the shit. When the swedish Batman magazine was resurrected in '89 (it was cancelled in '81 (not counting a limited 6-month stint in 87 when they did "Dark Knight returns" and "Year one") and after that batman was only a back-up in the Superman magazine which I barely read since I HATE Superman) they started with "Killing Joke", then "A death in the family" and then "Blind Justice". Unfortunately, the two following years could never really live up to that start but for a short while, that magazine ruled my world...

  

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BrooklynWHAT
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55. "so apparently a lot of people don't like Superman"
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<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Coatesvillain
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56. "They need to see what Geoff Johns is doing with him.."
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I always hated Superman but this shit made me a fan.

-------
"Andy justifies my hate."
http://www.twitter.com/coatesvillain
http://coates.tumblr.com

  

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KneelB4Me
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77. "100% cosign"
In response to Reply # 56


          

I've never been a Superman fan (except for the first 2 movies), but Johns is owning on Action. Even the arc with Donner and Kubert, for all its lateness issues, still came out pretty good.


Top Flight Security of the WORLD, Craig!

http://www.thecanvasexchange.com/member.php - Peep my shit!

  

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Coatesvillain
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57. "Not much of a Batman fan at all"
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But I remember loving the Batman/Predator crossover.

It wasn't bogged down with all the complicated description of how they ended up in the same world or anything. It was just a story about Batman Vs them and it was just dope. I haven't read it in years though so I'm not sure if it still stands up.

-------
"Andy justifies my hate."
http://www.twitter.com/coatesvillain
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sosa
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62. "I got a couple of these"
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It's been years since I read them. I'll be back with some thoughts.

  

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little bredren
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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65. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
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I'm about 60 pages into The Long Halloween, and I already like it more than Year One and The Killing Joke, am I a bad person haha?

Year One and The Killing Joke are very dope tho, don't get me wrong

  

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Esco
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76. "long halloween"
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and its sequel are my favorite batman stories. followed closely maybe tied with dark knight returns.

  

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sithlord
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78. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

I've heard a lot of people say The Killing Joke isn't Moore's best work or that Dark Knight Returns is better.

The Killing Joke is my favorite, but I can see people's points against it. I just realized the other day that I own Dark Victory, but I've never actually read Dark Victory. I guess that purchase came when I was buying stuff in bulk and it just got shuffled into the collection during my multiple moves over the last few years.

I just started reading the Resurrection of Ras Al Ghul the other day. I'll be back to discuss that eventually.

  

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little bredren
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79. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
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Tue Aug-05-08 06:23 PM by little bredren

  

          

oh, no no, i actually thought the writing (alan moore's) in The Killing Joke was incredible, I just wasn't a fan of the new re-done colouring, that was pretty much my only gripe with it...and maybe that it was just a tad short, but that's not really a bad thing, i just wanted more of the good stuff, there was really nothing else left to say.

  

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little bredren
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68. "RE: Batman Graphic Novels"
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up

  

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Mike DC
Member since Jul 07th 2007
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70. "Alright, im gonna need a little help here right quick"
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im going to be ordering 2 of these, and i know 1 is gonna be the killing joke. what should the other one be?

im leanin towards year one, but the long halloween is a possibility. also i read up on arkane asylum and that looks crazy, but theres not much talk of it here.

so what besides the killing joke should i check out, factoring in that i havent read any batman?

  

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will_5198
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75. "The Dark Knight Returns"
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--------

  

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