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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Wed Jan-09-08 10:04 PM

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"The Savages: The Film Alexander Payne Wishes He Could Make"


  

          

As I sat in silence as the closing credits rolled on The Savages, and I sat with my eyes fixed on the screen, as they had been for the previous 100 minutes, I noticed that one of the producers was Alexander Payne. I understand why he did it. It's a film about middle-class white people disheartened with their dreary lives, who undergo a crisis. This is the last three flicks Payne has written/directed.

It's a shame that Payne put his name on this one though, because it makes the comparison obvious. And anyone familiar with Payne's work who sees this will realize this film had more depth of character, more warmth, less caricature... it was realer. Tamara Jenkins wrote and directed the same time of film Payne's done his whole career, only better.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no Janey. I really like Payne's work. To give you an idea of my regard for Payne-- About Schmidt, Election, and Sideways all made my Top 5 Films of the Year in their respective years.

And yes. The Savages is better than all of those.

Let me also sidetrack for a moment to say I saw Margot at the Wedding, and it was everything The Savages was NOT. It was not well directed, not well shot (good God, the film was so dark), not well edited (choppier than the fight at the beginning of Gangs of New York... and this is a family dramedy, not an action scene), and WORST OF ALL, the whole thing felt fake. It felt like Noah Baumbach just hates the world and has contempt for people. It's a shame the writing was so hollow, because Jack Black gives his best character work I've ever seen here, and Jennifer Jason Leigh puts in some fine work as well. But it was written as if the author hated every character, which gave them no soul.

This is in SHARP contrast with The Savages. Jenkins clearly loves every one of these characters, even at their most assholish moments. The dialogue sparkles at every turn... not in a flashy Aaron Sorkin way, or in a quirky Noah Baumbach way (ugh), but in a way that rings totally true. It's funny, it's painfully sad. It's simply smart writing.

The acting... well, it's two of the best actors working, so big shocker that it's great. But PHILIP BOSCO NEEDS AN OSCAR NOMINATION. I don't fucking care how deep Best Supporting Actor is, and yes, Hoffman, Bardem, Affleck, they're all great. I hear you. This is the type of performance that deserves at least a nod. He never once play his ailments for laughs, and when Linney and PSH's hilarious-but-painful arguing has you laughing, he sucks you back to reality and keeps you grounded. To hold your own against these two titans of the screen is something else... he might even be the best performance in the whole flick.

And this film has heart in spades. Don't let the pitch-black subject matter, the assholish behavior, and the painful arguing dissuade you from seeing this film. I believe Jenkins has optimism for the life we have, even if the end of that life can be a sad, ugly process. This is where Jenkins shines over Payne. Even in Payne's optimistic moments (the close up on Jack's face in About Schmidt as he cries, Paul Giamatti returning to Virginia Madsden's door in Sideways), I still at times have trouble feeling that this whole thing is real. The Savages doesn't have broad gags played for laughs, it doesn't have one-note characters, it doesn't look down on any of the characters' behaviors. There are no hillbillies, no clearly stupid characters, no fat naked people here. Even the "funny situations" here are played totally straight. There's really not a wrong step, a wrong move, or a poor choice made by Jenkins.

So what am I saying? See this flick. If you like Payne's flicks, you should love this. And if you don't like Payne's flicks, this is easily worth a shot, since it's better. It's one of the best movies I've seen all year.

God, what a GREAT year it's been for American cinema.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Bosco
Jan 09th 2008
1
RE: The Savages: The Film Alexander Payne Wishes He Could Make
Jan 09th 2008
2
"I'm rooting for the dad to die" - My friend while watching this film
Jan 09th 2008
3
Then don't see Margot at the Wedding.
Jan 09th 2008
4
      Should have listened to you.
Mar 02nd 2008
16
           Come on now, at least The Savages is well-made.
Mar 02nd 2008
17
Way too sedate.
Jan 10th 2008
5
I think I felt the pulse underneath that haze.
Jan 10th 2008
7
      RE: I think I felt the pulse underneath that haze.
Jan 11th 2008
9
           Maybe it's just the future theater professor in me.
Jan 11th 2008
10
A well-acted bummer
Jan 10th 2008
6
Uh... er... uh... well...
Jan 10th 2008
8
lol at this line
Jan 11th 2008
11
I didn't say that genre was exclusively Payne's.
Jan 11th 2008
12
      But didn't the ending remind you a little of Annie Hall?
Jan 11th 2008
14
           The message, sure. But the voice and style are totally different.
Jan 11th 2008
15
Speaking of Janey. What happened to her?
Jan 11th 2008
13
A certain someone turned her off and she won't come back
Mar 02nd 2008
18

Sponge
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Wed Jan-09-08 10:23 PM

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1. "Bosco"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>The acting... well, it's two of the best actors working, so
>big shocker that it's great. But PHILIP BOSCO NEEDS AN OSCAR
>NOMINATION.

Abso-fuckin'-lutely. I thought it was ridiculous that Bosco didn't even get an ISA nomination where the pool is smaller. Fuckin' crime, man. Linney, too, but moreso for Bosco.

>He never once play his ailments for
>laughs, and when Linney and PSH's hilarious-but-painful
>arguing has you laughing, he sucks you back to reality and
>keeps you grounded. To hold your own against these two titans
>of the screen is something else... he might even be the best
>performance in the whole flick.

Bosco's performance is crucial to the flick; w/o it, the film would undoubtedly suffer.

Have you seen Julie Christie's turn in Away From Her yet? Great companion piece, I think.

>God, what a GREAT year it's been for American cinema.

Prettay, prettay, prettay good (c) Larry David

  

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numark216
Member since Oct 27th 2004
9302 posts
Wed Jan-09-08 10:26 PM

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2. "RE: The Savages: The Film Alexander Payne Wishes He Could Make"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>This is in SHARP contrast with The Savages. Jenkins clearly
>loves every one of these characters, even at their most
>assholish moments. The dialogue sparkles at every turn... not
>in a flashy Aaron Sorkin way, or in a quirky Noah Baumbach way
>(ugh), but in a way that rings totally true. It's funny, it's
>painfully sad. It's simply smart writing.
>
>The acting... well, it's two of the best actors working, so
>big shocker that it's great. But PHILIP BOSCO NEEDS AN OSCAR
>NOMINATION. I don't fucking care how deep Best Supporting
>Actor is, and yes, Hoffman, Bardem, Affleck, they're all
>great. I hear you. This is the type of performance that
>deserves at least a nod. He never once play his ailments for
>laughs, and when Linney and PSH's hilarious-but-painful
>arguing has you laughing, he sucks you back to reality and
>keeps you grounded. To hold your own against these two titans
>of the screen is something else... he might even be the best
>performance in the whole flick.
>

Oxen...this is what i was saying in the other post. It's so unflinchingly honest about life. I saw my moms and her sisters decide what to do with my grandmoms after 2 strokes and I related to everything these characters went through. Choosing the home, worrying about care, all of that. And yo, I told you fam, Philip Bosco could have been a glorified setpiece but he brought a gravitas to every scene. When he turns his hearing aid down in the car......that little flicker was fucking beastly.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Wed Jan-09-08 11:20 PM

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3. ""I'm rooting for the dad to die" - My friend while watching this film"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Not saying anything about you Frank but I saw this as a film about self-absorbed people for self-absorbed people.

Great acting but a terrible film IMO.

----
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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85465 posts
Wed Jan-09-08 11:31 PM

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4. "Then don't see Margot at the Wedding."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

I think you'd probably run at the projector with a hammer if that's what you thought at this flick. Its characters make The Savages' characters look like patron saints.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Sun Mar-02-08 12:47 AM

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16. "Should have listened to you."
In response to Reply # 4


          

Good god. "Margot at the Wedding" was horrific. Honestly, I feel like The Savages and Margot are basically the Date Movie/Meet the Spartans for the snooty intellectual-type.

----
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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85465 posts
Sun Mar-02-08 01:07 AM

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17. "Come on now, at least The Savages is well-made."
In response to Reply # 16
Sun Mar-02-08 01:07 AM by Frank Longo

  

          

I feel like Margot At The Wedding was filmed by a cameraman with Parkinson's, an editor with no sense of continuity, and a lighting designer named Stevie Wonder.

You can beef with the script of The Savages if it ain't your thing, but at least it's competently executed.

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genius.switch
Member since Nov 11th 2006
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Thu Jan-10-08 11:24 AM

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5. "Way too sedate."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Like the whole film was made under a haze of percocet.

That was my major complaint, and it kept me from getting too interested or attached to any of the characters.

SLIGHT SPOILER IN NEXT PARAGRAPH
You know that scene where PSH finally explodes in the parking lot? That was the one time the movie seemed to come alive. His outburst was insightful, genuine, and finally not a passive or restrained moment. Now, I'm not say the whole thing had to be yelling about death, because, really, in the midst of that you seldom talk so directly about "it", but a pulse would have been welcomed.

It was a nice looking, with serviceable leads (Linney's man was the only one that truly surprised / impressed me . . . I guess I'm just used to too much greatness from her and Phil), but I felt distanced throughout.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Thu Jan-10-08 11:53 AM

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7. "I think I felt the pulse underneath that haze."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Like the whole time, they were still these kids who didn't wanna have to do the "grown up" thing, so they wanted this process to be easy. But since death is the hardest thing in the world to deal with, it forced them to slowly come out and realize that they had to take control of their lives.

I totally understand the "haze of percocet" feel, because I think that was intentional. But I definitely felt that pulse underneath.

What are your thoughts about the Payne comparison?

  

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genius.switch
Member since Nov 11th 2006
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Fri Jan-11-08 12:27 AM

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9. "RE: I think I felt the pulse underneath that haze."
In response to Reply # 7
Fri Jan-11-08 12:45 AM by genius.switch

  

          

>Like the whole time, they were still these kids who didn't
>wanna have to do the "grown up" thing, so they wanted this
>process to be easy. But since death is the hardest thing in
>the world to deal with, it forced them to slowly come out and
>realize that they had to take control of their lives.

They led cluttered and messy lives . . . and you know what . . .when Linney mocks her play, in conversation with the nurse, she says she feared it would be perceived as "middle-class whining." I don't think it was that bad, but I just don't know if Jenkins ever produces any insight or anything of real interest from casting these two as such pathetic go-nowhere's. She's having an affair with a married man who brings his dog over when they have sex. His girlfriend's visa has expired w/out him batting an eye. So what? I never cared all that much. They're just moving pieces of set design to throw layer and layer of neuroses upon but never to become anything real. (And when they turn, when they begin to take control of their lives, Linney's play and Hoffman moving closer to his girlfriend = way too quick / tidy / convenient.)

>I totally understand the "haze of percocet" feel, because I
>think that was intentional. But I definitely felt that pulse
>underneath.
>
>What are your thoughts about the Payne comparison?

The whole dreary middle-aged comparison makes enough sense. I've only seen Payne's work in Election and Sideways and then his short in the Paris series. I can't really call myself a student or a fan though (cyncism is cheap, satire is overrated). (He also exec. produced King of California, which is apparently even more of a troublesome film.)

If I were to compare The Savages to any other movies, two other Laura Linney films first come to mind: You Can Count On Me and The Squid and The Whale.

The former presents another brother-sister relationship, but, aside from one slip-up in the story, doesn't go any sensationalistic or movie-route with it. It's a very natural, warm film, where the characters fuck up and succeed and love and fight, because that's what people do, not because a writer-director forces them to. As a result, I felt real heartbreak, relief, etc., and, again, I did so because the story compelled me to, not because the characters signaled me to.

Then, compared to The Savages, the characters in The Squid and The Whale are more drawn, but they're also infinitely better written, at least: more caustic, more awkward, more developed, more entertaining. There's even some genuine empathy (versus Jenkins' self-pity).

Lastly, I would mention The Wonder Boys. Though flawed by its narration and its cutesy ending, Wonder Boys however more successfully presents a cluttered, struggling, drug-addled literary type, much like the kind Linney and Hoffman play. It proves you can have the movie experience feel like a hazy drug trip without keeping the audience in a similar rut.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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10. "Maybe it's just the future theater professor in me."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          


>They led cluttered and messy lives . . . and you know what . .
>.when Linney mocks her play, in conversation with the nurse,
>she says she feared it would be perceived as "middle-class
>whining." I don't think it was that bad, but I just don't
>know if Jenkins ever produces any insight or anything of real
>interest from casting these two as such pathetic go-nowhere's.
> She's having an affair with a married man who brings his dog
>over when they have sex. His girlfriend's visa has expired
>w/out him batting an eye. So what? I never cared all that
>much.

But she gets very little from the affair... she's all alone, and no one really gives a shit about her-- her job, the foundations she applies to, her family. And I'd say he definitely bats an eye. He is afraid of commitment, and the idea of anything permanent in his life is frightening. But he clearly is upset that it has to be this way.

They're just moving pieces of set design to throw layer
>and layer of neuroses upon but never to become anything real.
>(And when they turn, when they begin to take control of their
>lives, Linney's play and Hoffman moving closer to his
>girlfriend = way too quick / tidy / convenient.)

I just couldn't disagree more. You saw her beginning to take control of her life before that. And he hadn't FULLY begun to yet, but you saw hints of it... he's the one with the furthest to go when it ends. His venture to Poland (which wasn't going to be permanent necessarily, he was going there for a conference) just implies that he too wants to take steps in the right direction.



>If I were to compare The Savages to any other movies, two
>other Laura Linney films first come to mind: You Can Count On
>Me and The Squid and The Whale.
>
>The former presents another brother-sister relationship, but,
>aside from one slip-up in the story, doesn't go any
>sensationalistic or movie-route with it. It's a very natural,
>warm film, where the characters fuck up and succeed and love
>and fight, because that's what people do, not because a
>writer-director forces them too. As a result, I felt real
>heartbreak, relief, etc., and I did so because the story
>compelled me to, not because the characters signaled me to.

Yeah, that one is much much warmer. But this one is about a very ugly subject matter-- death of someone you don't like but feel a deep obligation to. It looks death and adulthood on the whole in the face, whereas You Can Count on Me is much more about reunion. The Savages is about a brief reunion before permanent departure.

>Then, compared to The Savages, the characters in The Squid and
>The Whale are more drawn, but they're also infinitely better
>written, at least: more caustic, more awkward, more developed,
>more entertaining. There's even some genuine empathy (versus
>Jenkins' self-pity).

I haven't seen that yet, but Christ, Margot at the Wedding was ugly, mean, unlikable, shallow characters running amok. I have The Squid and the Whale (and You Can Count on Me, for that matter) but haven't seen it yet.

>Lastly, I would mention The Wonder Boys. Though flawed by its
>narration and its cutesy ending, Wonder Boys however more
>successfully presents a cluttered, struggling, drug-addled
>literary type, much like the kind Linney and Hoffman play.
>However, it proves you can have the movie experience feel like
>a hazy drug trip without keeping the audience in a similar
>rut.

See, with Wonder Boys, I felt more detached than I did with The Savages. Maybe because I felt Michael Douglas's acting was a bit showy, or that many of the events seemed like familiar ground, or the aforementioned narration or cutesiness at spots. Nothing's cutesy about these characters, the acting is never showy, and I felt like this film was tackling head-on a subject most films are afraid to-- that the death of family is ugly, drawn out, and interfering. That's a fairly cynical p.o.v. on the topic of death, but I could point you to about a million people who've had their own lives interrupted and torn asunder by a parent's debilitating disease. The fact that their lives are already torn asunder gives this event the unlikely status as a catalyst for growth in those who haven't felt like growing up.

In a way, all theater people never really wanna grow up. I know a girl temping in NYC waiting for her play to get finished and produced-- she's much younger, but I can imagine how incredibly lonely that must be. I know several professors, and I'm aspiring to be one myself someday to pay the bills, and again, if facing it alone, it's very easy to just hide behind a wall of books working on your research. You lose your livelihood alone in the theater world, and there's a constant feeling that nothing is permanent-- you'll be a famous playwright/Broadway actor/director/author someday. Everything is temping, life is temping until you've hit your stride.

So like I said, perhaps this play just struck a chord. And I certainly agree that in no way does it attempt to be warm (though I think the optimistic ending shows the hope for warmth in life). But as far as cynical argumentative family dramedies go, this one is really top drawer.

  

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TurkeylegJenkins
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Thu Jan-10-08 11:51 AM

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6. "A well-acted bummer"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


_______________________________________________________________________________

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Thu Jan-10-08 03:55 PM

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8. "Uh... er... uh... well..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm not sure about the Payne/Taylor comparison (they're credited as Executive Producers), because, as genius.switch has pointed out, there's a certain distance that I felt from these characters which I'd say isn't prevalent in a Payne movie.

I at least felt something for Miles and Jack, for Jim and Tracy Flick, for Warren Schmidt. I just couldn't bring myself to care for the characters here. Sure, as a person who has and will be confronting their parents' mortality I certainly could *relate* to their predicament, but ultimately I didn't care how things turned out. I didn't *feel* one way or the other about these cats, and I really, really wanted to. I wanted to *feel*, man!

I guess what I'm really saying is that imo, it just took way too long for the transformation to real adulthood to happen to these characters. I wonder how much more interesting the story would have been if, say, (SPOILER) the dad dies an hour in, instead of an hour and 20 minutes in.

I *will* grant you that the characters here are *realer* than a handful of those in the Payne movies (cmon, man, Sideways wasn't about them rednecks!), but that's about it, though.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the performances, they felt real and all, but I wonder what would have happened had they been given a better story to work with. I guess. *shrugs*
________________________________________________________________________
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BigWorm
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Fri Jan-11-08 09:27 AM

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11. "lol at this line"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>I noticed that one of
>the producers was Alexander Payne. I understand why he did it.
>It's a film about middle-class white people disheartened with
>their dreary lives, who undergo a crisis. This is the last
>three flicks Payne has written/directed.

Yeah, it's also every movie by Noah Baumbach, Wes Anderson, Kevin Smith, Todd Solondz, Woody Allen, James Brooks, Nancy Meyer, Nora Eprhon and a bijillion other writer/directors out there. A 'film about middle-class white people disheartened with their dreary lives, who undergo a crisis' doesn't exactly carry Alexander Payne's creative stamp on it.

  

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Frank Longo
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Fri Jan-11-08 10:47 AM

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12. "I didn't say that genre was exclusively Payne's."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

But this film in particular definitely seemed more akin to Payne's style than Baumbach, Anderson, Smith, Allen, etc.

  

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genius.switch
Member since Nov 11th 2006
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Fri Jan-11-08 01:57 PM

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14. "But didn't the ending remind you a little of Annie Hall?"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

And this quote from Woody, if you were writing a book on the dreary middle-class crisis film, might be a good opener:

"I feel that life is divided into the horrible and the miserable. That's the two categories. The horrible are like, I don't know, terminal cases, you know, and blind people, crippled. I don't know how they get through life. It's amazing to me. And the miserable is everyone else. So you should be thankful that you're miserable, because that's very lucky, to be miserable."


>But this film in particular definitely seemed more akin to
>Payne's style than Baumbach, Anderson, Smith, Allen, etc.

  

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Frank Longo
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Fri Jan-11-08 02:48 PM

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15. "The message, sure. But the voice and style are totally different."
In response to Reply # 14
Fri Jan-11-08 02:49 PM by Frank Longo

  

          

It's not really the themes that are different between these filmmakers as their voices and directing styles.

If you see 5 scenes, each by a different writer/director (Anderson, Smith, Baumbach, Allen, and Ephron, for example), you'd be able to tell what scene belonged to who, even if the subject matter and actors were exactly the same. It's the delivery of the message that differs, not the message itself.

Plus, like I said, I thought the nature of the dad's terminal illness and the way it was handled made this more than your typical "Life sucks, but it's better than death" film.

  

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jigga
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Fri Jan-11-08 01:13 PM

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13. "Speaking of Janey. What happened to her?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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JungleSouljah
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Sun Mar-02-08 06:53 PM

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18. "A certain someone turned her off and she won't come back"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

I've been pleading with her for the past few months. She refuses to venture from GD.

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