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Subject: "Hitchens > Dawkins" This topic is locked.
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DrNO
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Thu Apr-26-07 04:08 PM

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"Hitchens > Dawkins"


  

          

http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
without reading the article as yet, I wanted to say two things
Apr 26th 2007
1
*aHERM*
Apr 28th 2007
26
A former protege would beg to differ:
Apr 26th 2007
2
okay and I only read the first part of that but I have to say
Apr 26th 2007
3
      haha, I know nothing of Cat Stevens
Apr 26th 2007
4
the problem io have with extreme athiest is the same one i have with fun...
Apr 26th 2007
5
agreed, I'm as athiest as they come
Apr 27th 2007
12
THANK YOU!
May 24th 2007
51
I've heard good things about his new book, but...
Apr 26th 2007
6
well
Apr 26th 2007
8
      But that was never their intention.
Apr 26th 2007
9
      Ehhh
Apr 28th 2007
24
Dunno if that article proves your inequation
Apr 26th 2007
7
smart man^^^
Apr 26th 2007
10
he's an ahole and anybody that likes him is an ahole
Apr 27th 2007
11
guess I'm an ahole
Apr 27th 2007
20
      yes
Apr 28th 2007
28
I was thinking about something this morning
Apr 27th 2007
13
RE: I was thinking about something this morning
Apr 27th 2007
14
Category 2: John Paul The Great
Apr 27th 2007
15
he's called The Great now?
Apr 27th 2007
17
      will he be Saint John Paul The Great then?
Apr 27th 2007
21
      that's like diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper
Apr 27th 2007
22
           haha.
May 24th 2007
52
      He is
Apr 29th 2007
31
Category 2: Cynthia McKinney aka Ghetto Slut.
Apr 27th 2007
16
funny thing is Bill Maher was pretty gung-ho but said the same thing
Apr 27th 2007
18
Honestly, I think he's become brain damaged
Apr 27th 2007
19
i wasn't impressed w/ the God Delusion publicity tour either
Apr 28th 2007
23
You're judging the book by the book tour.
Apr 28th 2007
27
      I read the book and saw the tour, you know
Apr 30th 2007
38
This ahole likes Hitchens fine
Apr 28th 2007
25
RE: This ahole likes Hitchens fine
Apr 28th 2007
29
      I know
Apr 29th 2007
30
           What don't you get??
Apr 29th 2007
32
                Very possibly??
Apr 29th 2007
33
                RE: Very possibly??
Apr 30th 2007
42
                why does he repeatedly slam Bush and Cheney then?
Apr 29th 2007
34
                Becuase he's a drunken, brain damagaed zealot....
Apr 29th 2007
35
                he was first in line to give bush a handjob
Apr 29th 2007
36
                Bill O'Reilly says he does this too
Apr 29th 2007
37
                     see reply number 1
Apr 30th 2007
40
                          That's too easy
Apr 30th 2007
44
                So, then it was the hatred thing?
May 01st 2007
46
                     *I* was saying it at the time
May 02nd 2007
47
he was on BookTV on CSPAN2 yesterday being an obnoxious asshole
Apr 30th 2007
39
Oh, he's blowing bush again!
Apr 30th 2007
41
He drunk as hell on the Daily Show
Apr 30th 2007
43
Johnnie Walker Blue >>>>>> Christopher Hitchens
May 01st 2007
45
so now I've seen both Hitchens and Dawkins speak
May 24th 2007
48
So basically you like your Brits of the rougish drunkard variety?
May 24th 2007
49
      well, the guy who interviewed him
May 24th 2007
50
           I get to see him on the 10th!
May 29th 2007
53
                I warned my friend that he has a reputation for drinking
May 29th 2007
54
                     nick was there?
May 30th 2007
55
                          lol no such luck
May 30th 2007
56

janey
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Thu Apr-26-07 04:15 PM

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1. "without reading the article as yet, I wanted to say two things"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

First, that I've got tickets to see Hitchens speak in uh May? I think May. Yeah, May 23.

And second, when I saw Martin Amis a couple of months ago, he was asked about introducing Hitchens, a good friend, to Saul Bellow, a mentor and very dear friend. He told the story, which was an amusing anecdote, and then he said, well, you know the thing about Chris is that he's a contrarian. And you have to respect that. Because in his role as contrarian, he works very hard and sometimes painfully to closely examine accepted truths and norms. And the reason that that is sometimes painful is that his integrity is such that he has to take the opposing view on things that he himself holds dear, in order to test them.

I thought that was high praise indeed.

  

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Big Chief Rumbletummy
Member since Jan 31st 2006
2005 posts
Sat Apr-28-07 10:47 AM

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26. "*aHERM*"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


I, uh, make a FANTASTIC speaking engagement date. Uh...I have ambidextrous listening ability, I can focus for more than 10 minutes at a time on one thing, and I, uh, I like to go grab a beer afterward and talk EVEN MORE about what was said. I can also bench press 275 pounds 5 times. Even with a head cold I did that one time.

Plus its like 20 days after my birthday and YOU KNOW you owe me a birthday present. Don't even try to deny it, bitch.

  

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tappenzee
Member since Sep 28th 2002
19839 posts
Thu Apr-26-07 04:35 PM

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2. "A former protege would beg to differ:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Obit For A Former Contrarian

http://www.citypages.com/databank/24/1179/article11370.asp

A friend and protégé tries to make sense of what's happened to Christopher Hitchens

by Dennis Perrin
July 9, 2003
Bright spring afternoon. Hitch and I spend it in his fave D.C. pub just down the street from his spacious apartment. At the long polished bar, he sips a martini, I swig Tanqueray on ice offset by pints of ale. The pub's TV is flashing golf highlights while the jukebox blasts classic rock. We're chatting about nothing in particular when the juke begins playing "Moonshadow" by Cat Stevens. Hitch stops talking. His face tightens. Eyes narrow. I know this look--I saw it on Crossfire when he nearly slugged a Muslim supporter of the Ayatollah's fatwa against Salman Rushdie. I saw it during a Gulf War panel discussion at Georgetown when he responded to some pro-war hack with a precision barrage of invective, followed by the slamming down of the mike, causing a brief reverb in the speakers.

And here it was again.

"No," he said, shaking his head, exhaling Rothman smoke. "No--get rid of that!"

Bartender asks, "Excuse me?"

"Get rid"--gesturing to the music in the air--"of that."

"Can't. Someone played that song."

"Well, fuck it then."

Don't know if Hitch is serious. Yes, his anger about the fatwa is real and understandable. And the fact that the former Cat Stevens, Yusef Islam, endorsed the mullahs' death sentence clearly enraged him. But getting shitty over "Moonshadow"?

"You know," I say, "Yusef Islam renounced everything about his past. He hates Cat Stevens more than you do. He gave away or destroyed all his gold records. If you really want to show your disgust for him, embrace Cat Stevens. Play his stuff loud and often. Whistle 'Peace Train' or 'Oh Very Young' when you pass the local mosque."

Hitch listens, head down, fresh Rothman lit.

"No. Never. Fuck them both."

"Moonshadow" ends. Pat Benatar--or was it Whitesnake?--takes over, and we resume drinking.

That was about 12 years ago. Another lifetime. Back then Christopher Hitchens was It to me--my mentor, more or less. Just a few years before, I'd left the misery-filled comedy improv scene to work as a media activist and critic. Learned to write political essays on the job for a ratty New York East Village weekly. Raw execution. Tortured metaphors. Sentences so rank they needed quicklime. Yet I muddled on, read Alexander Cockburn's "Beat the Devil" and Hitch's "Minority Report" in The Nation for inspiration. Got the nerve to send a few columns to each. Cockburn was pleasant and encouraging in his reply, but Hitch went further. He typed up a letter praising some of my takes, criticizing others, showing me where he thought I misstepped, and so on, then closed by inviting me out for a drink whenever he was in New York or I in D.C.

That's when it started.

These days Christopher is vilified by many who once agreed with him, or at least respected his talent. We all know the story of The 9/11 Transformation: the former socialist and Beltway snitch who finally showed his true colors as a shill for W's gang. Some of his former friends, like Cockburn, have gone beyond political disagreement into personal insults, mostly aimed at Hitch's weight and drinking habits. (Dr. Alex also attempted some psychotherapy.) Some, like Sidney Blumenthal, affect an arch, dismissive posture, as if Hitch were little more than a distraction in the Grand Scheme. I've done my share of slagging too, mostly on a discussion list I belong to, but also to him, and I try to keep my criticisms politically and aesthetically based. Yet it's hard for me to erase the fond memories I have of Hitch.



See, Hitch engaged me. Whenever I was in D.C. for a talk or conference or simply visiting friends, I spent at least one night at Christopher's, and there, in the early hours at his large dining room table, Hitch held court. He talked about his early activist days in England, analyzed the current scene, riffed on political figures while steadily pounding red wine and chain-smoking his Rothmans. I tried to keep up on all fronts, but he was in another league. So I sat back, took in the spectacle. Far from blurring or dulling his mind, booze seemed to sharpen him. I was awed by his eloquence. I learned.

(When his book Letters to a Young Contrarian was released, a friend asked if I'd read it. "Why?" I replied. "I lived it.")

Above all, Christopher was kind and generous. He listened. He could be self-deprecating and intensely funny. He also had (and still seems to have) a weakness for gossip. This was often entertaining, though once when Andrew Sullivan joined us for drinks, the gossip took a swift dive into the bowels of The New Republic, a loathsome mag personified by Sullivan, who remains one of the most arrogant, pretentious jerks I've ever met. I wondered then how Hitch could stomach his type, but overlooked it in favor of the access I enjoyed.

My most intense period with him came during the first Gulf War. It was Christopher's prime. His pieces in The Nation and Harper's then were tonic. Read pages 75-98 from his collection For The Sake of Argument and see for yourself, especially now. Here's the close of his January 1991 Harper's cover story, "Realpolitik in the Gulf: A Game Gone Tilt":

"The call was an exercise in peace through strength. But the cause was yet another move in the policy of keeping a region divided and embittered, and therefore accessible to the franchisers of weaponry and the owners of black gold. An earlier regional player, Benjamin Disraeli, once sarcastically remarked that you could tell a weak government by its eagerness to resort to strong measures. The Bush administration uses strong measures to ensure weak government abroad, and has enfeebled democratic government at home. The reasoned objection must be that this is a dangerous and dishonorable pursuit, in which the wealthy gamblers have become much too accustomed to paying their bad debts with the blood of others."

This is the high point--the place where Hitch got it and fluently expressed it. Though hardly soft on Saddam, he still understood the imperial pecking order, the context in which vast power is wielded, the cynicism of it, the horror. He eviscerated the Bush gang with substance and style, and ripped through its apologists. Hitch was hitting all cylinders when he came across Bill Clinton in New Hampshire. Christopher had met his match: an Arkansas political pro with blood money behind him, a hustler and charmer impervious to journalistic assault, a con man so skilled at lying that even those wise to his game were impressed with his performance. Hitch, of course, went straight for Clinton's throat. But he never could get his hands on Clinton, and this fed a frustration that became an obsession.

By this time, Hitch and I saw each other intermittently, spoke by phone occasionally. I'd learned all I could from him and moved on. But I continued to read him and catch his TV appearances when possible. I was sympathetic to his anti-Clintonism, but there was something different about him. Hitch seemed harsher, meaner, sloppier in his attacks. His hatred of Bill and Hillary led him to link arms with the likes of Ann Coulter and the insane David Horowitz, a man who shouts "TREASON!" every 90 seconds. What the fuck? I thought. Why was Christopher going this twisted route? Whenever I asked him about it, he'd be polite but vague. He maintained that he wasn't bound by ideology, so appearing with Coulter at a Free Republic gathering meant little compared to the larger fight against Clinton. "I'll take what I can get," he said.

There was one thing Clinton did that Hitch approved of: bombing Serbia. Opposing it at first, Hitch soon banged the NATO drum in every available outlet. Milosevic wasn't a mere regional thug with blood on his hands--he was a genocidal monster who, if left alone, would wipe out every Muslim and Kosovar he could catch. Stopping him now would spare Europe another Hitleresque nightmare.

Well, maybe. As Hitch once told me, anybody is capable of anything: "Never be surprised by grim disclosure. Welcome it." But it appeared that Hitch's nuanced takes on global events and imperial designs were becoming grimmest black and white. Question his support for the bombing and you risked being called a pro-Slobo dupe. He was energized by the violence. Plugged into the Machine.

By the time of Clinton's impeachment, Christopher became better known for outrage than as a talented essayist. For every literary piece he'd pen for the ed'cated set in the London Review of Books, there were outbursts on Hardball and in his once-fine Nation column. Even though Clinton had stopped Milosevic from gobbling all of Europe, Hitch still couldn't stand him. And his distaste for Clinton led him to testify in the impeachment process, which soon led to charges that he betrayed his friend, the Clinton loyalist Sidney Blumenthal.

I felt bad for Hitch--he was getting raked good in the press, and old allies like Alexander Cockburn penned truly nasty attacks on his character. I wrote a long defense of Christopher in answer to Cockburn's "Hitch the Snitch" tirade, but I wasn't fully behind him. Like many on the left, I too wanted to see Clinton impeached, but for heavier crimes than lying about blowjobs. And I didn't want to help advance Tom DeLay's agenda. But Hitch could care less about this. Getting Clinton was all that mattered, and this mania drove him to shift his attacks to Al Gore during the 2000 campaign, supposedly on behalf of Ralph Nader, but also in the cynical service of George W. Bush.



And thus the table was set for the final course, which came on 9/11/01. Osama bin Laden provided Christopher the carnage-strewn opening he was waiting for, and soon after the Towers fell and the Pentagon's fires were put out, Hitch went off like he's never gone off before. Everybody to his left was a terrorist stooge. America was no longer an imperialist power. George W. Bush was a Noble Warrior for Enlightenment Values. From the wreckage of 9/11 came a new American Dawn, and Hitch soaked in its rays.

At first I was flabbergasted by the venom Hitch directed at people like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn (though, curiously enough, not at his old friend Edward Said, who didn't join Christopher's Liberation Squad). Then, after reading his arguments for smashing the Taliban and their al Qaeda "guests" in Afghanistan, along with Ahmed Rashid's fine book Taliban, I eventually came out in favor of the U.S. hitting those who backed the 9/11 attacks, if only to scatter them and knock them off balance.

When I explained my hesitant conversion to Hitch over the phone, he seemed delighted, and told a mutual friend that I was moving to "the right side."

Hmmm.

It's true I was pissed about the attacks on New York, my adopted hometown. And it's true that I took (and take) al Qaeda seriously and support undermining if not destroying them through international cooperation and effort. But I'm not a supporter of Bush's regime by any stretch, and was adamantly against the U.S. invasion of Iraq, knowing full well that plans for that attack predated 9/11 and had nothing to do with "liberation" or democracy, much less self-defense. Whatever goodwill the U.S. garnered after al Qaeda's hit was squandered by the administration's lust for expansionist war on its narrow terms. Can't support that.

The other difference is that, unlike Christopher, I do not revel in blasting apart strangers. There was a mean streak in me during the Afghan campaign where I did make light of Taliban and al Qaeda dead. But inside I knew that plenty more noncombatants were getting butchered, which bothered me. Plus I wasn't as gung-ho or dismissive about torturing prisoners at Guantanamo as were many of the war's supporters. Hitch has written about weapons that "shame us" and shown some concern for those chopped up by the U.S. Yet, more often than not, he's celebrated Bush's military attacks, and is critical when he thinks Bush isn't ruthless enough.

D.C. has finally gotten to him. That must be the main explanation. Yes, there are other factors to consider, but the D.C. Beast frames and distorts the thinking. Few on the Beltway's A List fret about crushing other countries. They enjoy it. They like the view from atop the growing pile of bodies. Always have. You can't live among these types for 20-plus years without some of their madness infecting your brain. And I'm afraid this madness, and the verbiage that covers it, is becoming more evident in Christopher.

I can barely read him anymore. His pieces in the Brit tabloid The Mirror and in Slate are a mishmash of imperial justifications and plain bombast; the old elegant style is dead. His TV appearances show a smug, nasty scold with little tolerance for those who disagree with him. He looks more and more like a Ralph Steadman sketch. And in addition to all this, he's now revising what he said during the buildup to the Iraq war.

In several pieces, including an incredibly condescending blast against Nelson Mandela, Hitch went on and on about WMD, chided readers with "Just you wait!" and other taunts, fully confident that once the U.S. took control of Iraq, tons of bio/chem weapons and labs would be all over the cable news nets--with him dancing a victory jig in the foreground. Now he says WMD were never a real concern, and that he'd always said so. It's amazing that he'd dare state this while his earlier pieces can be read at his website. But then, when you side with massive state power and the cynical fucks who serve it, you can say pretty much anything and the People Who Matter won't care.

Currently, Hitch is pushing the line, in language that echoes the reactionary Paul Johnson, that the U.S. can be a "superpower for democracy," and that Toms Jefferson and Paine would approve. He's also slammed the "slut" Dixie Chicks as "fucking fat slags" for their rather mild critique of our Dear Leader. He favors Bush over Kerry, and doesn't like it that Kerry "exploits" his Vietnam combat experience (as opposed to, say, re-election campaign stunts on aircraft carriers).

Sweet Jesus. What next? I'm afraid my old mentor is not the truth-telling Orwell he fancies himself to be. He's becoming a coarser version of Norman Podhoretz.

  

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janey
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Thu Apr-26-07 04:55 PM

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3. "okay and I only read the first part of that but I have to say"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Moonshadow sucks. I LOVED Cat Stevens as a child and I always hated that song. I still listen to some of his stuff now and then but Moonshadow -- NEVAR!

Hitchens was just showing his good taste in music.

  

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tappenzee
Member since Sep 28th 2002
19839 posts
Thu Apr-26-07 05:13 PM

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4. "haha, I know nothing of Cat Stevens"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

So that paragraph was a throwaway for me.

When you finish that, and you would like some type of update, here's the fallout from that piece:

http://redstateson.blogspot.com/2005/05/in-game.html

Two people helped me to polish my natural delivery. The first was Jeff Cohen...

The other person was of course Christopher Hitchens. Our relationship was much more convoluted, but I got so much out of it. Like Jeff, Christopher was a dynamite speaker, but his real talent emerged in debate. Oxford-trained, he knew so many tricks and had encountered every attack in the book. It was one thing to see him dispose of opponents on TV, but you had to see him live to fully appreciate his mastery.

I don't know how many of his debates I watched. But each time I sank into his performance, analyzing the smallest gestures. The bonus for me was that I got to experience Christopher one-on-one. Many times I riffed politically in his kitchen, and he'd watch and either say, "Go Dennis, keep going," or he'd stop me and suggest I look at this or that topic another way. And he was not a first thought/best thought kind of guy. He instructed me to reject the first thing that came to mind. "Flotsam," he'd say. "Go deeper."

Some think that Christopher and I parted over Iraq, which is partly true. But the real rupture came with this. Even though I told him about the piece as I was writing it, and sent him the draft before it was published, Christopher was thrown, and according to people I know, deeply hurt. That wasn't my intention. I wanted to explore and explain the conflicting feelings I had about his support for Bush and the war, and why he became so virulent with those who disagreed. I thought that if anybody could take what I had to say, it was Christopher. He always told me to not shy away from the truth of an issue, no matter what. This I thought I did. To him, however, it was a knife in the back.

I'm saying all this for two reasons. One, I know that nearly two years after my piece appeared, Christopher is still furious with me. He bad mouths me, gets angry when my name is mentioned, and apparently has trashed me on Australian radio. And while he'll sometimes affect a dismissive air when it comes to me, his anger points to something deeper. He really feels betrayed, and one rarely experiences betrayal from a casual acquaintance.

The second reason is that after hemming and hawing for a few weeks, Christopher has declined to publicly debate me. This is somewhat unusual for him. Christopher's long prided himself as someone who doesn't duck a challenge. So long as his fee is met, he'll engage pretty much anyone, including, if I recall correctly, a Holocaust denier.

But not me.

Friends tell me that Christopher has nothing to gain and everything to lose in a debate with me. I suppose that's true. As I've said, I've been out of The Game for a long time while Christopher's profile has risen to statist heights. But with the advent of this blog, which I didn't think would last this long, I'm getting back into fighting shape. I'm also receiving invitations again to speak at universities. I'm lining up a variety of projects, and all lead me back to The Game.

I do this because it's what I do best. Also, I have kids who are growing quickly into a world of mayhem, deceit, mass murder and torture, in a country under reactionary assault, and I simply cannot and will not sit back and wish them the best of luck. If I can help the fight, I will. And from the emails I get, it appears that many of you feel this is what I'm doing and should be doing. I thank you for your encouragement and support.

I'm still open to debating Christopher. Hell, I'll do it for free. I think it would be cathartic for both of us. It would be electric. Everything he says about me in private he can say to my face in public. I can take it. But that's his choice.

Me, I'll keep this little engine humming. And if a warblogger or lib hawk wants to go podium-to-podium, let me know. I'm Game.

  

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Iltigo
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Thu Apr-26-07 05:22 PM

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5. "the problem io have with extreme athiest is the same one i have with fun..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

you don't have to believe what i believe. but don't insult me for believing it.

most contrions/athiests have a condescending tone in their arguemtns against God or any holy figure/book/itme that implies superiority...that shit irritates me.

just like fundies pity athiets for "not understanding" and then condenming them to hell.

once again my (middle ground) voice is ignored in the name of sensationalism and division.

frustrating.

i like hitchens at times, but his attacks on God-believers almost seem personal...maybe its just me
________________________________________
return to your home citizens

madagascar titties- (c) phontiggalo the rap jiggalo

I would never, ever hit a woman....but i'll beat a bitch (c) wifey

http://www.myspace.com/iltigo

  

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mc_delta_t
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Fri Apr-27-07 11:12 AM

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12. "agreed, I'm as athiest as they come"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

and I even believe that religion is extremely harmful

but I still don't need to be an ass and act smug about it

I can still have respect for religious people (and even some ideas), something Dawkins seems incapable of.

  

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WhiteNotion
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Thu May-24-07 12:43 PM

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51. "THANK YOU!"
In response to Reply # 5


          

i came in here to say the same thing. i'm an atheist as well, and i like to think i'm fairly educated on the topic (i'm doing graduate study in philosophy), but Hitchens is always talking down to his opponents. he's so damn smug and condescending. ad hominem attacks get no respect in my book. he will never convince his opposition of anything if he doesn't change his approach.

http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/whitenotion/

  

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bignick
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Thu Apr-26-07 06:43 PM

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6. "I've heard good things about his new book, but..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'll never forgive that guy for condoning this illegal, immoral war.

  

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DrNO
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Thu Apr-26-07 08:11 PM

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8. "well"
In response to Reply # 6
Thu Apr-26-07 08:13 PM by DrNO

  

          

he supports the war as far as its intention to destroy a hostile dictatorship and bring in democracy. If you read or listen to him you'll see that he loathes the way Bush presented it and executed it and many, many other issues.

People tend to get up in arms when he actually decides to bring some nuance to the argument.

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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bignick
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Thu Apr-26-07 08:20 PM

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9. "But that was never their intention."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>he supports the war as far as its intention to destroy a
>hostile dictatorship and bring in democracy.

And everyone who was paying attention knew that.

>If you read or
>listen to him you'll see that he loathes the way Bush
>presented it and executed it and many, many other issues.

And it was illegal and immortal regardless of how Bush presented or executed it.

  

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Zeno
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Sat Apr-28-07 08:21 AM

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24. "Ehhh"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

I dunno. I would hesitate to lump him in with the Ignatieff crowd of liberal interventionists, as much as Hitchens might wish to be seen that was rather than as a quasi-neocon. Ignatieff's perspective has generally been centered on human rights, whereas the whole Islamofascism rhetoric (which Hitchens, try as he might, cannot separate himself from) kinda seems Huntingtonian and focused on a more generalized notion of secular western democracy versus theocracy in the east. Hitchens might've fit the Ignatieff mold prior to 9/11. A lot of his writing about Kissinger's backing of Pinochet and similar dictators was rooting in human rights. But 9/11 and Iraq kind of coalesced his hawkishness with his particular view of the Middle East and superceded whatever kind of rights-based humanitarian intervention he had advocated in the past. Hitchens' crass reaction to the Haditha massacre kind of seals the deal for me on that one.

I am a major, major Michael Ignatieff opponent, but I would hesitate to go so far as to say he's an ideological brother of Chris Hitchens.

____________

Over 10 Years of Measured Responses

  

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Zeno
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Thu Apr-26-07 07:59 PM

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7. "Dunno if that article proves your inequation"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

His undeniable eloquence aside, how can one take Hitchens seriously after spending the past five years or so as a drunken zealot?

____________

Over 10 Years of Measured Responses

  

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cereffusion
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10. "smart man^^^"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


Hitchens has taken a lot of L's recently.


Back like...

http://www.imageyenation.com

  

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cereffusion
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11. "he's an ahole and anybody that likes him is an ahole"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://mobile.slate.com/detail.jsp?key=3818&rc=d_20070425&p=1&pv=1


Back like...

http://www.imageyenation.com

  

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DrNO
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20. "guess I'm an ahole"
In response to Reply # 11
Fri Apr-27-07 05:22 PM by DrNO

  

          

I kind of cringe at that but he does make good points. That story isn't really news anymore in the sense that it's not going to have ramifications beyond the grief of those directly affected. It's just tabloid journalism to be putting it on the front page at this point, and hollow pandering for public figures to speak up about it like they are.

The murderer is dead, gun control won't change. What's really left to cover?

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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cereffusion
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28. "yes"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          




Back like...

http://www.imageyenation.com

  

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janey
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Fri Apr-27-07 11:21 AM

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13. "I was thinking about something this morning"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Let's make a list of people who embarrassed themselves by reacting with support of violence after 9/11/01, and those who were vilified by specifically NOT doing so.

Category 1:
Christopher Hitchens
Robert Thurman (a leading Buddhist scholar)
I don't know about his immediate reaction, but Martin Amis clearly belongs here for being so dismissive of people who want to see things from the perspective of, say, Hezbollah.
Add on?

Category 2:
Susan Sontag. I know people who have still not forgiven her for saying that you can't properly call someone a "coward" if he deliberately flew a plane into a building. She said you can call them a lot of names, but "coward" isn't one. I don't think she ever fully recovered from the slings and arrows that she aroused with that.

  

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tappenzee
Member since Sep 28th 2002
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Fri Apr-27-07 11:53 AM

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14. "RE: I was thinking about something this morning"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          


>
>Category 2:
>Susan Sontag. I know people who have still not forgiven her
>for saying that you can't properly call someone a "coward" if
>he deliberately flew a plane into a building. She said you
>can call them a lot of names, but "coward" isn't one. I don't
>think she ever fully recovered from the slings and arrows that
>she aroused with that.

Didn't Bill Maher lose his ABC spot for agreeing with her too? As much as I can't stand smug-ass Bill Maher, this was pretty unfair.

  

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Walleye
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Fri Apr-27-07 11:58 AM

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15. "Category 2: John Paul The Great"
In response to Reply # 13


          

"May the Lord remove from the heart of man every trace of resentment, of hostility and of hate, and open him to reconciliation, to solidarity, and to peace."

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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40thStreetBlack
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17. "he's called The Great now?"
In response to Reply # 15


          


___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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DrNO
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21. "will he be Saint John Paul The Great then?"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

even for a pope that's gratuitous.

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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janey
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22. "that's like diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

a couple of modifiers too many

I like pope names like Innocent. That was a good one.

  

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WhiteNotion
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52. "haha."
In response to Reply # 22


          


http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/whitenotion/

  

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Walleye
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31. "He is"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Benedict called him that shortly after he died. It's caught on pretty widely. Peggy Noonan's biography referred to him that way and there's already a university named after him in California.

I do like the idea that an actual public figure that I remember well from my lifetime is now "The Great". It makes me feel like I lived through something important. But I'm pretty much indifferent to the actual suffix itself. On one hand, it's kind of organic in a way that other titles really aren't. Albert the Great doesn't have much in common with Gregory the Great and John Paul the Great except that they were all great. It's just Albert was mostly great at being really, really smart and the other two (while also really smart) were great leaders. But the titles were largely contemporary, and if the people decide somebody's great, it's probably prudent not to interfere.

On the other hand, that's also made it sort of a title of utility so far after the fact. Most people aren't really aware of what made Albert so great (I actually *am* aware of it and I still only think of him as "the guy who taught Thomas Aquinas), just that he's the St. Albert who is called "The Great" and the other several St. Alberts aren't. If it's only going to be used as a way of distinguishing one Albert from another, that's hardly the sort of gravity people intended when they started calling him that. Plus, maybe it shouldn't be such a spontaneous title. We appropriately acknowledge that Albert was really smart when we refer to him as a Doctor of the Church. With such a wide variety of potential honorifics and nicknames, maybe "The Great" is a bit on the vague side.

But, ambivalence aside, I still kind of want it to catch on. So I'm going to use it.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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bignick
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16. "Category 2: Cynthia McKinney aka Ghetto Slut."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

  

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40thStreetBlack
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18. "funny thing is Bill Maher was pretty gung-ho but said the same thing"
In response to Reply # 13


          

>Category 2:
>Susan Sontag. I know people who have still not forgiven her
>for saying that you can't properly call someone a "coward" if
>he deliberately flew a plane into a building. She said you
>can call them a lot of names, but "coward" isn't one. I don't
>think she ever fully recovered from the slings and arrows that
>she aroused with that.

and his show got canceled.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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handle
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19. "Honestly, I think he's become brain damaged"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Apr-27-07 04:23 PM by handle

          

Like Dennis Miller and Denis Hopper before him.

Could it be some sort of brain damage occurred with drinking and the hatred for Clinton??

honestly.

This guy seems like a drunken Horowitz now. I'm so glad Salon dumped those two and Sullivan.

  

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anoman
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Sat Apr-28-07 07:57 AM

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23. "i wasn't impressed w/ the God Delusion publicity tour either"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but I recently saw this Dawkins talk on youtube & liked it a lot:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw

a much more humble approach - he sticks to conveying the unimaginable scale of the universe science reveals to us, & the limits of our ability to make sense of events occurring on such a scale.

only in the last few minutes does he slip in the atheism thing, but only as a (IMO) quite touching argument about our human need to personify impersonal forces, not by railing against the possible shortcomings or absurdities of religious believers.

I wish the God Delusion (or at least the pub. tour, I didn't actually read it) had been more like this.

  

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bignick
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27. "You're judging the book by the book tour."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          


>only in the last few minutes does he slip in the atheism
>thing, but only as a (IMO) quite touching argument about our
>human need to personify impersonal forces, not by railing
>against the possible shortcomings or absurdities of religious
>believers.

The "atheism" thing is the whole point of the book. And it's not "railing against" religion. All he does is simply point out the gaping logical holes in any religious belief.

  

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janey
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38. "I read the book and saw the tour, you know"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          


~~~~~

It is painful in the extreme to live with questions rather than with answers, but that is the only honorable intellectual course. (c) Norman Mailer

  

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Big Chief Rumbletummy
Member since Jan 31st 2006
2005 posts
Sat Apr-28-07 10:43 AM

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25. "This ahole likes Hitchens fine"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Admittedly I stopped seriously following his writings about the time he got released from Vanity Fair so there are probably about 100,000 articles I'm unfamiliar with in which he's pissed folk off. Looks like I have some good reading ahead of me.

I like how in the replies to this post how at one point he has become a drunken zealot ahole with brain damage now that he's no longer seen as Lefty McLiberal. Before 9/11 he was a studious and sober amiable English chappie with an IQ of 270+.

  

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handle
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29. "RE: This ahole likes Hitchens fine"
In response to Reply # 25
Sat Apr-28-07 09:37 PM by handle

          

> Before 9/11 he was a
>studious and sober amiable English chappie with an IQ of
>270+.
And now he's a drunken zealot asshole that's 100% wrong on almost every issue.

And before 911 he was a hateful Clinton basher. I mean hate, not disagreement with Clinton's policies, hatred.

Have fun with the reading

  

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Big Chief Rumbletummy
Member since Jan 31st 2006
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Sun Apr-29-07 09:15 AM

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30. "I know"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          


I think I'm one of the 3 who actually bought and read "Nobody Left To Lie To" about the Billary Clinton presidency. I have to begrudgungly admit that I was initially drawn to the book by its day-glo orange hue, sort of like it was Barnes & Noble PowerBait. Fascinating, and brief, eviscerating of the then lame-duck president.

Do you have a problem with hatred focused towards Bill Clinton? My reading of your reply, due primarily to the repetition and underscoring of exactly where the hatred was directed, assumes you do. Or perhaps its just hatred towards any president/political figure that you find contemptible?

  

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handle
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32. "What don't you get??"
In response to Reply # 30


          

>Do you have a problem with hatred focused towards Bill
>Clinton? My reading of your reply, due primarily to the
>repetition and underscoring of exactly where the hatred was
>directed, assumes you do. Or perhaps its just hatred towards
>any president/political figure that you find contemptible?

Personal hatred is very unappealing to me, and is not likely to sway my view on a political figure. Hitchens HATED Clinton, pure hatred. NOT Clinton's policies, but CLINTON.

In my view, Clinton was far to the right of my political views, but the "scandals" and impeachment were a HUGE waste of time for this country.

Then Bush comes in, has a huge failure of policy (9/11) and Hitchens jumps on the bandwagon.

Hitchens philosophies at this point are wrong (in my opinion) and seeing him on tv , very possibly drunk, telling lies about 9/11 and Iraqis too much for me. The last time he was on Real Time I think he was worse than any right-wing pundit that had ever been on that show.

His argument that Sadaam (and Talibanism) are "evil, bad things" I can agree with, but his support for insane, and mismanaged, war is just plain silly.

He's thrown his support in with incompetent and stupid (intelligent , yes, but stupid too) people that plan consits entirely of "a. Show them force and they will submit to our will. b. When they don't then repeat steps a."

Hitchen's brain is a the same loop as Bush or Cheney's at this point. And the circular policies they support are not good for our country. And that's why I think he's a tool.

Three people died on 9/11 that are still walking around: Christopher Hitchens, Dennis Miller , and Phil Hendrie.

  

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Zeno
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33. "Very possibly??"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

> very possibly drunk

Remove "very possibly."

He was a guest chair at a debate at my undergrad alma mater and he totally ridiculed students participating in the debate. Which is kinda funny, but makes you wonder what kind of person he is to have the punditry profile he has at this point in life.

____________

Over 10 Years of Measured Responses

  

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Yogaflame
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42. "RE: Very possibly??"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

Was this at U of T? I think I heard something about that.

Reminds me of the time Mordecai Richler berated a bunch of St. Andrew's College boys up in Aurora back in the mid-80s.

  

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DrNO
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34. "why does he repeatedly slam Bush and Cheney then?"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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handle
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35. "Becuase he's a drunken, brain damagaed zealot...."
In response to Reply # 34


          

But not an idiot.

He clearly favors many of their policies. Take that and his personal vitriol for the last president to have sensible policies and he == asshole who should be marginalized for his views.

  

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cereffusion
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36. "he was first in line to give bush a handjob"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

on 9/12

you lose.


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Zeno
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37. "Bill O'Reilly says he does this too"
In response to Reply # 34
Sun Apr-29-07 07:55 PM by Zeno

  

          

Hitchins is not a neocon lackey. He's just an extremist who will take on any kind of extremist point of view that he sees fit, and then try to make it sound normal will remarkable eloquence.

____________

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janey
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40. "see reply number 1"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

I think that this was what Amis was talking about.

  

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Zeno
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44. "That's too easy"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

I might have some vague interest in what Hitchens might say as, like Amis says, a contrarian, but only in the fluffiest and most pundity circumstances. I wouldn't take him seriously enough to read a whole book.

____________

Over 10 Years of Measured Responses

  

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Big Chief Rumbletummy
Member since Jan 31st 2006
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Tue May-01-07 08:33 PM

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46. "So, then it was the hatred thing?"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          


>
>Personal hatred is very unappealing to me, and is not likely
>to sway my view on a political figure. Hitchens HATED Clinton,
>pure hatred. NOT Clinton's policies, but CLINTON.
>
>In my view, Clinton was far to the right of my political
>views, but the "scandals" and impeachment were a HUGE waste of
>time for this country.
>
>Then Bush comes in, has a huge failure of policy (9/11) and
>Hitchens jumps on the bandwagon.
>
>Hitchens philosophies at this point are wrong (in my opinion)
>and seeing him on tv , very possibly drunk, telling lies about
>9/11 and Iraqis too much for me. The last time he was on Real
>Time I think he was worse than any right-wing pundit that had
>ever been on that show.
>
>His argument that Sadaam (and Talibanism) are "evil, bad
>things" I can agree with, but his support for insane, and
>mismanaged, war is just plain silly.
>
>He's thrown his support in with incompetent and stupid
>(intelligent , yes, but stupid too) people that plan consits
>entirely of "a. Show them force and they will submit to our
>will. b. When they don't then repeat steps a."
>
>Hitchen's brain is a the same loop as Bush or Cheney's at this
>point. And the circular policies they support are not good for
>our country. And that's why I think he's a tool.
>
>Three people died on 9/11 that are still walking around:
>Christopher Hitchens, Dennis Miller , and Phil Hendrie.
>
>

Thats ust a shot in the dark there...just a guess, just a stab at something...not sure, not 100% sure yet.

I love the guy, what can I say? Actually, that is inaccurate...I loveD the guy. I am ready to admit that I printed out his 10 most recent articles from SLATE, read them, and I am finding myself vehemently disagreeing with a whole lot of what he says.

But dammit I love the way he says it.

He's not the Hitchens I followed as recently as 5 years ago, and DEFINITELY not the same man I followed 10 years ago. You are right, he's fucked with his opinions on very critical aspects of this war and specific Bush policy. I don't enjoy the content like I once did but I still like his style. Guess he's built up enough credit with me that although I'm not going to be riding for him any time soon, I'll always have an affinity for the man.

Personal hatred and vitriolic attacks don't bother me. I loved that he went after Clinton like he did. I don't know what you thought of it back then, but people seem to be reflecting on that period of time and are now content to deem his Clinton bashing as some sort of a deranged obsession. How much of that is revisionist? How many of those folks were saying that at the time? I'd be interested in knowing if the people casting that light on that era are doing so because they are looking back with their current opinions Hitch.

  

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handle
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47. "*I* was saying it at the time"
In response to Reply # 46


          

>Personal hatred and vitriolic attacks don't bother me. I loved
>that he went after Clinton like he did. I don't know what you
>thought of it back then, but people seem to be reflecting on
>that period of time and are now content to deem his Clinton
>bashing as some sort of a deranged obsession. How much of that
>is revisionist? How many of those folks were saying that at
>the time? I'd be interested in knowing if the people casting
>that light on that era are doing so because they are looking
>back with their current opinions Hitch.

I was saying that-- and so was Bob Somersby.

Clinton's POLICIES, while not to my *exact* liking are SHITLOADS better than this asshole in office now. And Hitchen's (and the rest of the medias) obsession with Monica, Bill and Gore are largely to blame for our current situation.

7 short years ago the political discourse was "Why is Al Gore saying he invented the internet, wrote Love Story, discovered Love Canal? It's because a woman told him to wear Earth Tones while doing fuzzy math."

Tell me that wasn't the level of discourse.

And now our fucking press wants to know if "Hillary's voice is too shrewish to be presidential."

Give me a fucking break. Hitchen's may have been your political Mr. Blackwell (worse dressed), but he's a batshit, brain-damaged , extremist zealot who is wrong on policy much of the time, AND absolutely wrong with his support of this transparently illegal occupation of Iraq.

Links:
http://www.dailyhowler.com/h031099_1.shtml
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh070204.shtml
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/1999/06/07/hitchens/print.html

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Mon Apr-30-07 01:35 PM

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39. "he was on BookTV on CSPAN2 yesterday being an obnoxious asshole"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I guess that's just his thing.

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

  

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DrNO
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41. "Oh, he's blowing bush again!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.slate.com/id/2165269/

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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Zeno
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43. "He drunk as hell on the Daily Show"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

____________

Over 10 Years of Measured Responses

  

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soundsop
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45. "Johnnie Walker Blue >>>>>> Christopher Hitchens"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

he's a drunken blowhard who neo-conservatives love because he gives a nice british accent to their crazed delusions of a global war for the future of humanity

but he's right about the whole god thing

  

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janey
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48. "so now I've seen both Hitchens and Dawkins speak"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and I like Hitchens a lot better than Dawkins for a lot of reasons, many of which are just intuitive. I mean, Hitchens is *funny* and I appreciate that.

  

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bignick
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49. "So basically you like your Brits of the rougish drunkard variety?"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

As opposed to the snooty, professorial type?

  

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janey
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Thu May-24-07 12:41 PM

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50. "well, the guy who interviewed him"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

is the dean of our big Episcopal church and is more like the latter sort, although he's pretty warm and funny as opposed to snooty.

I think at the end of the day, where Dawkins & Hitchens seem to divide is that Dawkins says religion sucks and we should get rid of it and Hitchens says religion sucks and it's fine with him if you hold irrational beliefs so long as you're happy with that and don't try to press them on anyone else.

But you know, we in SF just don't know WHAT to make of Hitchens because the whole anti-theism thing is ALL the rage here right now, but this is also a city that HATES the war on Iraq, so he's a quandary. I really really liked it that the first question from the audience was a challenge to his opinion on secular states, and he ended his answer by saying, watch out -- don't challenge me on this unless you're ready for a fight, and then the next question was a not-well-thought-through mumbledy jumble by an older woman who challenged some of his comments on Iraq and Sadaam Hussein and he went for the jugular. My companion said, "He's being mean," and I said, "No, he's being intellectually honest and he also warned us all not five seconds ago not to ask about bullshit that we don't really know about."

Hitchens said that if he were to properly sum up his feelings about religion, it would come out like Philip Larkin's poem, Church Going

Philip Larkin - Church Going
Once I am sure there's nothing going on
I step inside, letting the door thud shut.
Another church: matting, seats, and stone,
And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut
For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff
Up at the holy end; the small neat organ;
And a tense, musty, unignorable silence,
Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off
My cycle-clips in awkward reverence.

Move forward, run my hand around the font.
From where I stand, the roof looks almost new -
Cleaned, or restored? Someone would know: I don't.
Mounting the lectern, I peruse a few
Hectoring large-scale verses, and pronounce
'Here endeth' much more loudly than I'd meant.
The echoes snigger briefly. Back at the door
I sign the book, donate an Irish sixpence,
Reflect the place was not worth stopping for.

Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,
And always end much at a loss like this,
Wondering what to look for; wondering, too,
When churches will fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into, if we shall keep
A few cathedrals chronically on show,
Their parchment, plate and pyx in locked cases,
And let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep.
Shall we avoid them as unlucky places?

Or, after dark, will dubious women come
To make their children touch a particular stone;
Pick simples for a cancer; or on some
Advised night see walking a dead one?
Power of some sort will go on
In games, in riddles, seemingly at random;
But superstition, like belief, must die,
And what remains when disbelief has gone?
Grass, weedy pavement, brambles, buttress, sky,

A shape less recognisable each week,
A purpose more obscure. I wonder who
Will be the last, the very last, to seek
This place for what it was; one of the crew
That tap and jot and know what rood-lofts were?
Some ruin-bibber, randy for antique,
Or Christmas-addict, counting on a whiff
Of gown-and-bands and organ-pipes and myrrh?
Or will he be my representative,

Bored, uninformed, knowing the ghostly silt
Dispersed, yet tending to this cross of ground
Through suburb scrub because it held unspilt
So long and equably what since is found
Only in separation - marriage, and birth,
And death, and thoughts of these - for which was built
This special shell? For, though I've no idea
What this accoutred frowsty barn is worth,
It pleases me to stand in silence here;

A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognized, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.

  

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DrNO
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Tue May-29-07 05:56 PM

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53. "I get to see him on the 10th!"
In response to Reply # 50
Tue May-29-07 06:04 PM by DrNO

  

          

benefits of living in a decent city.
I do get into town from Winnipeg early, early that same morning unfortunatley. The trip also keeps me from seeing Brand Upon the Brain.

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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janey
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Tue May-29-07 06:18 PM

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54. "I warned my friend that he has a reputation for drinking"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

but he seemed completely sober during the interview, so if my experience is anything to go by, it should be good!

I really wanted to ask him whether he thought Amis's assessment of him was accurate, but too many people wanted to challenge some of his statements. In a not sufficiently smart way, too, so that was a rout.

  

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DrNO
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Wed May-30-07 06:39 PM

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55. "nick was there?"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

JK!

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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janey
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Wed May-30-07 06:40 PM

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56. "lol no such luck"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          


~~~~~

It is painful in the extreme to live with questions rather than with answers, but that is the only honorable intellectual course. (c) Norman Mailer

  

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