"Are plot twists for the simple-minded?" Fri Dec-18-15 07:15 AM by denny
They spend hundreds of millions of dollars....and the thing everyone values more than anything else could be written down on a cocktail napkin? Does the 'quality' of a plot-twist even have any bearing on the overall quality of a movie? Are they interchangeable? I mean, substitute one possible plot twist for another.....does it matter?
One might say a plot twist is 'good' when you don't see it coming. Nope. And we can think of a million examples that show that to be untrue. I didn't see the plot twist of 'The Happening' coming....
Off the top of my head....the greatest 'reveal' I've ever experienced was the end of Psycho. But for the most part....these are cheap tricks for serials and soap operas that never contribute to a film's lasting quality.
I'm obviously talking about Star Wars. I'm sure you could sit down with a bunch of Star Wars nerds and come up with 20 different plot twists ideas of which one will be pretty much the same as what Abrams went with. So the 'fun' is finding out what card is drawn? Does the arbitrary nature of this seem like a game of Battleship to anyone else? "Oh of course.....B4."
Perhaps the key to a good plot twist is that audience doesn't know there IS a plot twist coming. As soon as they know something's coming....you've basically turned your movie into a game of distraction, suggestion and manipulation....all orbiting an arbitrary irrelevance that makes the value of an entire production take a nosedive shortly after being released.
Stay tuned to my next post wherein I will reveal what color I'm thinking of.
Frank Longo Member since Nov 18th 2003 86797 posts
Fri Dec-18-15 04:25 PM
1. "You asked different questions. I'll answer them individually." In response to Reply # 0
RE: Are plot twists for the simple-minded?
No.
>They spend hundreds of millions of dollars....and the thing >everyone values more than anything else could be written down >on a cocktail napkin?
This isn't true. Story and characters count for far more.
Does the 'quality' of a plot-twist even >have any bearing on the overall quality of a movie?
Absolutely. A bad plot twist can ruin our understanding of the story and characters.
Are they >interchangeable?
Absolutely not. See above.
I mean, substitute one possible plot twist >for another.....does it matter?
No one can possibly think this. See above.
>One might say a plot twist is 'good' when you don't see it >coming. Nope. And we can think of a million examples that >show that to be untrue. I didn't see the plot twist of 'The >Happening' coming....
That's because the story didn't work and the characters were bad.
>Off the top of my head....the greatest 'reveal' I've ever >experienced was the end of Psycho.
That had a great story and great characters. It helped reveal more about the characters and it informed the story.
But for the most >part....these are cheap tricks for serials and soap operas >that never contribute to a film's lasting quality.
Some are. Some aren't.
>I'm obviously talking about Star Wars. I'm sure you could sit >down with a bunch of Star Wars nerds and come up with 20 >different plot twists ideas of which one will be pretty much >the same as what Abrams went with. So the 'fun' is finding >out what card is drawn? Does the arbitrary nature of this >seem like a game of Battleship to anyone else? "Oh of >course.....B4."
A predictable story well-told absolutely brings immense pleasure. I think everyone knew how Creed's story was going to go and what the characters' journeys would be, beginning to end. But the story was beautifully told and the characters were wonderfully drawn. So, yes, seeing a well-done twist at the end of a well-told story with well-sketched characters, even if you saw it coming, can absolutely provide pleasure.
> >Perhaps the key to a good plot twist is that audience doesn't >know there IS a plot twist coming. As soon as they know >something's coming....you've basically turned your movie into >a game of distraction, suggestion and manipulation....all >orbiting an arbitrary irrelevance that makes the value of an >entire production take a nosedive shortly after being >released.
I do believe that this is true, but again, if your story and characters aren't so strong that they absorb the audience, then none of it matters. I've gone into movies "looking for a twist" and been subsequently absorbed. I've gone into movies not knowing a twist was coming but been so bored by the story and characters that I start thinking about all of the directions in which the film could go.
Good storytelling and good characters are what matter most.
2. "did you just reference The Happening? LOL" In response to Reply # 0
that movie sucked. so there wasn't really anything "happening" in that movie that could have saved it. you really didn't see a twist coming from the guy who puts a twist in every single one of his movies? really?
4. "Agree with Longo but wanna put this right here" In response to Reply # 0
"Perhaps the key to a good plot twist is that audience doesn't know there IS a plot twist coming."
This is why I absolutely despise when people/reviews say, "I don't want to give away the plot twist but it's INSANE!" Giving away the existence of a plot twists gives away a large part of the effectiveness of the plot twist!
"You'll never see it coming!" Uh, now I will, asshole.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, it's why the Jack Ryan ad campaign was one of my favorites in recent memory. They built a whole "Who can he trust?" element that made you think there'd be a twist... and then it was just a completely straight forward movie.
>"Perhaps the key to a good plot twist is that audience >doesn't know there IS a plot twist coming." > >This is why I absolutely despise when people/reviews say, "I >don't want to give away the plot twist but it's INSANE!" >Giving away the existence of a plot twists gives away a large >part of the effectiveness of the plot twist! > >"You'll never see it coming!" Uh, now I will, asshole.
8. "Yes, the greatest plot twist were when we weren't thinking about Plot Tw..." In response to Reply # 4
Remember when we were watching The Usual Suspect the question throughout the movie was is, is Keating still alive!??!
>"Perhaps the key to a good plot twist is that audience >doesn't know there IS a plot twist coming." > >This is why I absolutely despise when people/reviews say, "I >don't want to give away the plot twist but it's INSANE!" >Giving away the existence of a plot twists gives away a large >part of the effectiveness of the plot twist! > >"You'll never see it coming!" Uh, now I will, asshole. > >On the opposite side of the spectrum, it's why the Jack Ryan >ad campaign was one of my favorites in recent memory. They >built a whole "Who can he trust?" element that made you think >there'd be a twist... and then it was just a completely >straight forward movie.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
7. "The first viewing of Usual Suspects is great because of the plot twist" In response to Reply # 0
Subsequent viewings are great because it's a really good movie.
Plot twists can lose their luster after the first viewing, so a movie should not use that to determine how good it is.
You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles
12. "Subsequent viewings of Usual Suspects are for watching Spacey " In response to Reply # 7 Tue Dec-22-15 10:56 PM by Amritsar
Dude put on a Masters Class of acting
A once in a generation actor in real life playing the part of a criminal trying to pass himself off as someone else
He managed to make an art out of over acting. Go back and watch those interrogation scenes. The subtlety, understated facial expressions and mannerisms...
Probably one of the most brilliant performances of the 20th century
10. "First thing I thought of when I read the post was Focus" In response to Reply # 0
I don't think plot twists by themselves are for the simple minded, but when you overdo plot twists in a movie (Focus, Trance, etc), you're catering to people who watch movies SPECIFICALLY for plot twists.
11. "Psycho had two plot twists" In response to Reply # 0
Janet Leigh getting killed in the first 15 minutes being the other one. picture a movie today where Jennifer Lawrence is billed as the star and doesn't even survive the first act.
13. "JOY Spoiler ^^^^^vvvvvv" In response to Reply # 11 Wed Dec-23-15 09:57 AM by Ceej
>Janet Leigh getting killed in the first 15 minutes being the >other one. picture a movie today where Jennifer Lawrence is >billed as the star and doesn't even survive the first act.
dula dibiasi Member since Apr 05th 2004 21925 posts
Wed Dec-23-15 10:37 AM
14. "it's not quite that early, more like 30." In response to Reply # 11
>Janet Leigh getting killed in the first 15 minutes
___
it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes
16. "yah....it doesnt' hold up well." In response to Reply # 15
I'm guessing that it's in there because there wasn't as much public familiarity with identity disorders like schizophrenia. But it does seem odd that he felt the need to basically explain the ending via a straight monologue. It definitely breaks the rule of 'show don't tell'.
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