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https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/billy-woods-golliwog-interview
Tucked away in the bedside table in his childhood bedroom is a collection of billy woods’s early writings. “My mother keeps a bunch of stuff that I wrote when I was a young person in a drawer,” he says over Zoom, his camera off, deep baritone voice emanating from a square that simply reads “woods.” “If I’m staying there, sometimes I’ll stumble on them,” he says. During one such visit, he found a horror story he wrote when he was nine—a tale of an evil golliwog, a piece of racist iconography originating from The Two Dutch Dolls, an 1895 children’s book by British-American cartoonist Florence Kate Upton. Seeing the word “golliwog” sparked something in woods, so he jotted it down in his notes as a potential source of inspiration; when it came time to work on a new solo record, he looked back at that list to see if there was anything there that could jumpstart his process. His new album, GOLLIWOG, isn’t explicitly based on his childhood story, though it sprouted from the same seeds. “I always liked the way that word sounds and feels,” he says. “When I saw it in my notes, along with something about ‘horror,’ I thought, ‘This is the way to go.’”
Woods is no stranger to darkness; his records tackle heavy subjects, like the claustrophobia of trauma processing on Hiding Places, the climate change anxiety that colors Terror Management, or the ideas of who gets to decide and enforce identity on Aethiopes. GOLLIWOG is perhaps his bleakest and most severe work to date—a densely layered opus that uses horror and science fiction to examine ideas of the perils of religious zealotry; the hollowness of nationalism; the mix of grief and relief after someone’s death; and the scheduling nightmare of navigating a polycule. It’s sometimes harsh and brutal, filled with the sampled sounds of screaming and sobbing; it’s also wickedly funny, woods flexing his trademark gallows humor to temper (or bolster; after all, comedy and horror go hand-in-hand) some of the grimmer moments.
Despite the album’s intensity, woods describes the process of making GOLLIWOG as rewarding. It’s his first multi-producer solo album since 2019’s Terror Management, something he felt called to do after three albums of single-producer partnerships. Embracing that process led to some profound coincidences. Conductor Williams’s beat for “STAR87,” with its hair-raising strings and horror samples (a voice shouts “The call is coming from inside the house!” before it’s drowned out by the sound of someone being stabbed), arrived in woods’s inbox almost immediately after he’d decided on the album’s concept. Saint Abdullah’s somber, piano-driven beat for “Maquiladoras” came with a ghostly sound collage, including the harrowing sample of a pundit exclaiming “Make America Great Again!” to punctuate woods’s verse. Aside from appearances by the usual Backwoodz players—among them, Messiah Musik, Steel Tipped Dove, DJ Haram, and Willie Green—woods enlists El-P, Ant, and Human Error Club, as well as saxophonist Mette Rasmussen and flautist Shabaka Hutchings to contribute to the album’s vast sonic scope.
We caught up with woods in mid-April, a month or so after the album’s announcement and a year since he’d recorded the first song. Over the course of two free-flowing conversations, we probed its origins and layered meanings, and let its themes lead us into stranger, more existential discussions. “I’ve turned it over in my hands in every which way,” he says, a tinge of excitement in his voice. “I created it, then I lived with it as a finished project, and then I dropped off from examining it. I’m curious to see what other people think.” Thankfully for all of us, billy woods is always game to discover where a thought can lead; no idea is ever settled, it’s simply a portal to many others.
One of my favorite songs on We Buy Diabetic Test Strips is “Switchboard” because your verse feels like a bunch of miniature horror stories on top of each other. Did that verse predict or inform how you approached this record?
No, I don’t think so. I do love that song and that verse, but I think that things on GOLLIWOG veer from outright horror to speculative sci-fi to things that are just strange psychological digressions, and maybe ‘Switchboard’ would be closer to the latter. Shout out to Sebb Bash, the great producer who did that. In working on this one, one of the funny things was going through my catalog and seeing how there are so many songs that could have fit into this record. A song like ‘Christine’ on Aethiopes could easily belong on this record. Something like ‘Bedtime’ on Hiding Places, with the two ‘bedtime stories.’ ‘Dead Birds’ on Terror Management has this jaundiced-eyed look at the climate-meltdown world that we’re living in—or that’s rapidly approaching. ‘Hangman’ on Maps. You could lift out lots of those songs and put them in here, and they would have fit in well. So, the interesting thing was realizing that this is an area I mine, but it’s never been the binding idea of a work like it is on this one.
What appeals to you about horror or speculative sci-fi as a literary device?
When I was a kid, I read a lot. I read every type of everything, and I always thought that horror was a powerful and compelling medium to explore a range of stories. I suspect it always has been—old fairy tales or passed-down folk tales often having elements of speculative fiction or horror. I hold a pretty expansive view of what I consider to be horror. Even something like Heart of Darkness—there’s an aspect in which that’s a horror story. I also think it often revolves around—or at least works in communication with—politics and society. Often, that’s the axis on which a lot of horror turns beyond the obvious thing of monsters being scary. There’s usually something else to it, right?
You play a lot with time in your work, often flattening or expanding it. How does time work in this record?
There’s a lot of examination of ideas of time travel and various conceptualizations of what that could mean in this album. If you look at a song like ‘Born Alone,’ there’s a point at which I’m talking to a younger version of myself. ‘Counterclockwise’ very blatantly addresses ideas of sleep and time travel. Even on the opener, ‘Jumpscare,’ there’s an image at the end of a Back to the Future-esque time machine—except it’s both a trap car and an Afrofuturist vehicle that’s up on cinder blocks.
Would you consider making music or music itself as a form of time travel?
No, but like anything, there is an aspect in which what you do is you create an artifact from a specific time and place, both in the objective world and in yourself and your life. That’s pretty impactful. If I go listen to Camouflage, it’s going to take me back to that time—to 9/11, to that apartment in Greenpoint where Bond and I were working on the stuff, to the studio in Yonkers where I was recording and sleeping on the couch, going up for the weekend and just writing and figuring out how to make the music. That political moment, that moment in my own life, how I had escaped certain things, and my thought processes at the time. So I don’t think that’s time travel, but it is a capsule of time and place on multiple levels.
I’ve followed your career for many years, so there are passages in some of these songs that I recognize from various interviews that you’ve given, especially concerning the death of your father, or the circumstances around your leaving D.C. for New York. I find it interesting that you keep your face hidden in photos and that you keep the stage dark when you perform, and yet it feels like you’ve been revealing more and more of yourself in the music over the years. There’s even that line on “Making a Mistake” when you say, “I’ve told a few lies in my life, but never once over a beat.” How do you calculate the equilibrium between what you keep private and what you’re willing to write about and share with us?
The funny thing, I think, is that people’s fixation on the face and all of that belies the fact that my music is, and has always been, very rich in details about my life—my thoughts, my feelings, my family, my connections, my loves and hates. From the beginning, from Camouflage, my music has been personal. If you really follow my music like that, you probably know more about me than you do about the vast majority of rappers that you listen to, where you know what their faces look like and you know their real names.
Sure, but perhaps those privacy ideas, when combined with the way that you write, where historical and literary references blend with personal details, make it easy for folks to project a kind of mythical character on you. And when we get something that feels especially personally revealing, like your mother telling you and your sibling not to trust anyone on “Waterproof Mascara,” it’s stark or jarring.
That’s an interesting idea. Not everything I’ve written is autobiographical, obviously, but I think that there are many rappers who I’ve listened to for a long time and who I’m a fan of, but I couldn’t tell you that much about their actual, real, private lives or history, outside of things I might know from an interview.
At the risk of employing that overused phrase, “their most personal record to date,” did you find yourself getting more personal here than before?
I don’t think so, and I always am surprised by the use of that phrase. I saw people saying Aethiopes was my most personal record, but I don’t see it that way. There’s so much personal stuff in every record, but not all of it is. Everything is written from a personal place, but it doesn’t have to be autobiographical. I’m not trying to escape from some idea that my lyrics are complicated, or that I express abstract ideas, because I am totally fine with those things. But it’s just funny, because I have some very, very direct and very personal songs. A song like ‘Pollo Rico’ is very personal, but there are songs I’ve made that are very straightforward, like ‘Asylum,’ which is a story about a child living next to an exiled military leader. There are so many: ‘Red Dust,’ ‘Big Fake Laugh,’ ‘A Day In A Week In A Year.’ Even things that are very allegorical, like the verse on ‘Stonefruit’—I didn’t write that coming from nowhere.
There’s a line on “Corinthians,” that goes, “If you never came back from the dead, can’t tell me shit.” Have you ever had a near-death experience?
Several.
What have you taken from those experiences?
That I didn’t want to die.
Did that surprise you?
No, but what is crazy is to feel the imminence, the power of mortality, and to experience this rush of feelings and images—the so-called ‘life flashing before your eyes’ type thing. In my experience, there has been some reality to that. I don’t know, everyone is different, but for me, it was a terrifying experience.
How did that change how you move through your day-to-day?
The same, I think, as any moment of mortality did for me. Ultimately, your day-to-day can only change so much. It’s human nature to eventually settle back into the norm. To walk around every minute thinking about your mortality would be crippling. In those moments, things get very slow, and many thoughts, feelings, and emotions run through your head simultaneously. I guess maybe the most lasting impact was trying to avoid the things that got me to those places—whether it was being a little kid who couldn’t swim jumping into a pool when nobody else was around, or looking down the barrel of a firearm that’s pointed at you by a person whose intentions you’re not sure of.
That specific verse in “Corinthians” feels like a bunch of near-death experiences back to back.
There are several things I was doing with that verse. The book of Corinthians in the Bible has the oft-cited passages about how one sees the world, and even oneself. So that was the departure point: Examining the idea of the spectacle that is modern existence, and living where, at times, you’re like a scarecrow that can see everything happening but feel no ability to affect the world around you. Beyond that, I was delving into all sorts of different forms of seeing. I came to a dystopian look at the world.
Some people define human nature as people being ultimately good or ultimately bad, and there seems to be no nuance in that. Do you have a steadfast idea of human nature?
It seems obvious to me that human beings are both good and bad. If there’s one idea that all religions embrace, it’s the idea of that duality. How they explain it away, and what their prescriptions are, may vary, but the idea that the human world is a balance of good and evil is pervasive for a reason.
Politics and examinations of geopolitical struggles frequently show up in your work, and this record, coming out in this particular time of fresh U.S. collapse, seems prescient. There’s that line in “Pitchforks and Halos,” “Their time is over, and they know it, that’s why they wildin,'” which feels like an evergreen statement about both revolutionaries and counter-revolutionaries. And there’s that very intense “Make America Great Again” sample in “Maquiladoras.” How does it feel to release an album with this subject matter, with this title, in this moment of the U.S.?
It would be a mistake for me to say that I knew all this would happen, but I definitely have strong feelings about the moment that we’re in. I think the United States is a huge domino in world order that has fallen. That affects a lot more people than when you see a coup sweep through the Sahel in North Africa, or the election of Javier Milei in Argentina. The United States is, for the rest of the world, like sleeping next to a giant; when the giant starts having a nightmare, you’re in trouble.
I think that the moment that the U.S. is in is part of a bigger moment globally. The collapse of a Neoliberal world order, and what increasingly appears to be its replacement by—we’ve yet to see how it’s going to shake out— a rise in authoritarian, right-wing, nativist movements, some of which deals with, at least in the West and in other parts of the world, issues of migration. Those things are not only from the so-called underdeveloped world to the developed world; you also see it within other state groupings. Something that would be close to me would be looking at South Africa and the rise of anti-immigration, and the nativist feelings that extended out into violence against Zimbabweans who were migrating there due to the collapse of the Zimbabwean state.
You’ve cited MF DOOM as one of the inspirations for this record. There are those repurposed lines from “Gas Drawls” in “Misery,” and then there’s that King Gheedorah sample at the end of “Born Alone.” I was trying to figure out some more below-the-surface ways he shows up here. There are so many questions on this record about identity—especially national identity—and I wonder if DOOM living in exile at the end of his life played into your thought process while you were conceptualizing the album.
Not directly. I definitely was thinking of tributes and homages to DOOM when I was working on it, and there are a few things in there, but I wasn’t necessarily thinking about his exile. More so, I was thinking about how much his work had stuck with me and inspired me, and the different points of intersection in our lives. When he was alive, we were only separated at times by a few degrees of people. He’s of Zimbabwean-Caribbean heritage, and his parents met in New York, which is the same story for me and my parents. Once I knew what I was doing and thought about it, I wanted to include some aspects of a tribute to him as one of the all-time greats. There’s an argument for him being the greatest. I think his best work is some of the best work that anyone has ever made in this genre.
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