"Artists that did the Outkast Great Debut, Next World Sophomore Album?"
After a group/artist has a great debut album, it's most likely that that artist will have a not nearly as great Sophomore Album. Hence the term Sophomore jinx.
But occasionally artist follow up a great sophomore album with an even greater sophomore album.
In fact, there even seems to be a specific pattern for artist/groups that fit this mold. Specifically, their first album is a Genre album (That is, the album fits very easily into a very popular genre at the time) but their follow-up album sounds very very different, not a genre album (or is genre-expanding) and shows you skills/talents you didn't even know that artist had.
I may be getting too specific when we should maybe just be talking about artist who had a very good debut and a great sophomore album but I think a bunch of artist fit the specific pattern I described. Artist like:
Outkast D'Angelo Prince (cheating by starting with his self-titled wider released album) Common (cheating by considering his first album good)
I also maybe unnecessarily limiting the convo because some artist fit the pattern I described above over a course of albums and not necessarily in their debut and sophomore. Artist like:
Marvn Gaye Beatles Beach Boys
Anyway, Let's discuss this evolution of artist. Anyone else you can think of fits this pattern?
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
1. "Yea I was gonna mention Common for sure." In response to Reply # 0
I don't think it's cheating, his first album *was* good. But I think he fits your criteria here just based on how different Resurrection was as a sophomore album. He wasn't just the lowkey, drunk, partying young Chicago kid anymore - he was an insightful, socially aware MC willing to look inward.
He was definitely/obviously on the positive vibe tip on CIBAD, but he mastered and honed that messaging on Resurrection. And the soundscape by No ID/YNot was more polished by then as well.
>Common (cheating by considering his first album good)
2. "Section.80 to good kid m.A.A.d city" In response to Reply # 0
then to follow up gkmc with To Pimp a Butterfly kept Kendrick on the same trajectory as OutKast when it comes to 123 punch, though I prefer Kendrick's 2nd over his 3rd.
6. "gkmc and TPAB sort of ruined Section.80 for me" In response to Reply # 4
I was obsessed with Section.80 when it dropped. HiiiPower is still my fav. Kendrick song. The level of hype I had for gkmc exceeded basically any other album I've ever anticipated in my life, to the point where gkmc needed to be as good as it was in order for me to be happy with it.
Now I go back and while I still really enjoy it, compared to gkmc and TPAB it almost sounds too basic compared to what I know Kendrick is capable of.
The same can prob be said with OutKast and Southernplayalistic. I don't love that album, I rarely listen to it in full, but I think a part of that is because I heard everything that came after it beforehand, so it didn't impress me as much as it would have with no context of OutKast going into it.
>I was obsessed with Section.80 when it dropped. HiiiPower is >still my fav. Kendrick song. The level of hype I had for gkmc >exceeded basically any other album I've ever anticipated in my >life, to the point where gkmc needed to be as good as it was >in order for me to be happy with it. > >Now I go back and while I still really enjoy it, compared to >gkmc and TPAB it almost sounds too basic compared to what I >know Kendrick is capable of. > >The same can prob be said with OutKast and >Southernplayalistic. I don't love that album, I rarely listen >to it in full, but I think a part of that is because I heard >everything that came after it beforehand, so it didn't impress >me as much as it would have with no context of OutKast going >into it.
Good analogy as well. I always loved Southernplayalistic but now I only play a couple songs off it. Namely Crumblin' Erb and the title track. Southernplayalistic was basically the south's version of the west coast sound, in hindsight. It still sounds unique and like an OutKast album, but it's got a west coast lean to it. Obviously they grew exponentially from there.
Anyway re: Section.80 I feel the same way. I went back and listened to it front to back like maybe a year or 1.5 years ago. And while it's definitely still good (I still play HiiiPower, Rigamortus, and Poe Man's Dreams regularly) you're right, his creativity blasted off from there; so listening to S.80 with that context, it sounds really basic for sure.
Big Daddy Kane - "Long Live the Kane" was a good album But "It's A Big Daddy Thing" is one of hip-hop's most underrated albums of the 80s.
Tony Toni Tone - I think this one might be personal preference. I enjoyed "Who?" but I always really loved "The Revival." It's not one of TTT's more talked about albums though.
Public Enemy - "Nation of Millions..." is iconic. It was going to blow away whatever was released before it. I always thought "Yo! Bum Rush the Show" was just OK anyway.
5. "would tribe and de la not fit this?" In response to Reply # 0
i would say tribe maybe fits it more as The Low End Theory is held in higher regard than Peoples generally. I personally think they're both classic level quality.
I think both De La albums are classics so if the qualification is that the first album can't be as great as the second then I guess they don't qualify. Some people with deteriorated listening capability say 3 Feet High sounds dated so I guess an argument can be made that it is only great and not a classic. Dead seems to have avoid these complaints.
De La - I've always liked 3 Feet a lot more than DLSID but then again I prefer Buhloone and Stakes over both.
The Roots - Never got into Organix like that, but it works if you disregard that as more of a demo and treat DYWM and Illadelph as their first two albums.
8. "Yea I thought of them too. Tribe def qualifies I think." In response to Reply # 5
De La probably could, too depending on your perspective. But to me I kind of lump 3FH and ...Dead together. I know ...Dead was their pushback against the rep they had after 3FH, but I still consider them to be similar albums in a lot of ways. They're both kind of goofy, long, full of skits, etc. I lump them together, then I lump Buhloone and Stakes together as one of their transition periods.
With Tribe, People's and Low End are definitely much different albums and I think they qualify because both are really good, but Low End took their sound to the next level. And obviously Phife had a ton more presence on Low End, which is truer to, and vital to, the Tribe legacy of course.
>i would say tribe maybe fits it more as The Low End Theory is >held in higher regard than Peoples generally. I personally >think they're both classic level quality. > >I think both De La albums are classics so if the qualification >is that the first album can't be as great as the second then I >guess they don't qualify. Some people with deteriorated >listening capability say 3 Feet High sounds dated so I guess >an argument can be made that it is only great and not a >classic. Dead seems to have avoid these complaints. > >The Roots would fit too right?
Although I don't think UHS sounded like anything else out, Embrya DEFINITELY didn't. I kinda go back and forth on which one is better...but Embrya truly is...otherworldly
>Although I don't think UHS sounded like anything else out, >Embrya DEFINITELY didn't. I kinda go back and forth on which >one is better...but Embrya truly is...otherworldly
This. I didn't like Embrya as much when it first came out, even though I did bump it a lot. Today though, it's one of my favorite albums period, i still play it on the regular.
--------- "We in here talking about later career Prince records & your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak
45. "The band has never been a hit machine so it's hard to compare them..." In response to Reply # 12
... it's hard to compare them to acts like OutKast or even Tribe or De la who had hits. Especially when the band never sought to be pop in anyway or form.
But they improved quite a bit from album to album from Organix through Phrenology. That's a five album run which is impressive.
The lack of hits are the reason I think The Roots don't get the props they deserve. I used to knock them and think less of them than Tribe, De la, or even The Fugees because all of those groups 'broke through' in some respect while The Roots outside of a couple songs are unknown.
But song to song from album to album, you have to rank The Roots up there with those 'overground' acts like the ones above. To have over ten albums with no real dud in there is quite the achievement.
16. "Digable Planets" In response to Reply # 15 Sat May-30-20 11:57 AM by Johnny
I didn't hear Reachin when it first dropped outside of the singles. But I now regard it as a really good album. Can easily listen to it front to back
I bought Blowout Comb on release and I consider it one of the slept on gems of 90's hiphop. Has aged really well. Wish their label didn't fold so we could have gotten a 3rd album
Dj Joey Joe Member since Sep 01st 2007 13770 posts
Sun May-31-20 12:26 AM
20. "ATCQ, De La Soul, Jungle Brothers, Beatnuts, etc. " In response to Reply # 0
All those that I mentioned in the subject line were artists/groups who's second album was better than their first;
I will say The Roots too but they kind of don't fit cause most people didn't know about their first album until after their second album came out, and to me their first album "Organix" wasn't that good to begin with.
Also with The Beatnuts, I know that their first release was an EP, so I don't count that as their first album (which was self-titled or sometimes titled "Street Level") but I felt like their second album "Stone Crazy" was received liked way more than their first.
Also I will say Common, Brand Nubian, & Slum Village all fit cause they had good first albums and their second albums basically became classics in their own catalogs, the only artist I'm not sure about is Queen Latifah cause as much as I use to like her first album, to me her second album had way better songs but I'm not sure if I liked it more, it was kind of on the same level as her first album but a different vibe.
One thing you might notice all the artists I named (except for The Roots) are Native Tongues members.
--------- "We in here talking about later career Prince records & your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak
OC was already getting be accolades for "Word...Life" but when he came out with his second album "Jewelz", whoa, that album blew expectations for many, I still listen to "Jewelz" like it came out a year ago or so, it has good replay value from beginning to end, no duds at all (which is rare these days with albums).
"Word...Life" is still a classic in many hip-hop head circles but when you bring up his second album they know it's the better of the two.
--------- "We in here talking about later career Prince records & your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak
23. "Good call with the OC reference" In response to Reply # 22
I came in here to say Tribe but you could also say Radiohead as well. Looking back Pablo Honey wasn't a great album, outside of Creep. So if you disqualify them based on that, I can't disagree.
But The Bends is classic material and and also builds a unique world.
This is a reach but would Talib and Mos count if you count Black Star as a 'debut'?
The Digible Planets reference is a good one, although it could run into the Radiohead category.
24. "Had the same thought with Talib and Mos" In response to Reply # 23
>This is a reach but would Talib and Mos count if you count >Black Star as a 'debut'?
But wasn't sure if it counted since Black Star isn't a solo debut, and technically Train of Thought isn't a Talib solo either. If it does count though, Black Star is certainly a very good/great album and Train of Thought and Black on Both Sides are even better.
Even though I don't particularly care for Licensed to Ill, it was a smash hit and the second album was even better (though paradoxically, not really considered as such by the people who made the debut a smash hit)
I like the 1988 album but it is VERY dated. The Revival is dated as well but the bangers BANG...Feels Good, Whatever You Want, It Never Rains
I'd like to talk about the sophomore to 3rd album jump, based on TTT, Outkast, The Roots (if we don't include Organix), Common, Tribe - but that's another post
36. "I'm throwing k-Os in here. I like all his first three albums" In response to Reply # 0
and the progression is definitely there, whichever is your fav (Atlantis is mine personally).
I know some lessonheads are into Sharon Van Etten, and the development of her sound across her first three albums is pretty great too. She's even remained consistent since possibly, but those three still stand out for me.
38. "Good call. And same re: Atlantis." In response to Reply # 36
>RE: I'm throwing k-Os in here. I like all his first three albums >and the progression is definitely there, whichever is your >fav (Atlantis is mine personally).
47. "i came back to post k-os " In response to Reply # 36
for whatever reason i havent been listening to him much lately. decided to listen to his albums again yesterday and it reminded me of this post.
when exit dropped he had a lot of buzz and was pretty critically acclaimed. couldnt imagine him topping that. then boom joyful rebellion. that was such a huge leap in quality and a whole new sound. he had pretty big relative success from it too.
atlantis is another step up but a smaller one as joyful rebellion was pretty much perfect. i think there is one song on it that isnt great. atlantis is great all the way through and my fav as well. another jump in success for him as well with sunday morning. also ANOTHER different sound.
his first 3 albums can go up with pretty much anyone, Yes! is pretty great too.
he definitely wasnt as big as outkast but his first 4 albums do follow a similar arc. two artists that kept innovating and getting better.
...busted out back in 93 with "Plantation Lullabies" which (IMO) was the spark and re-ignition of 'earthy, live feeling/hand-made' soul/R&B/urban (or whatever name you choose call it ...and then she followed that with the STILL mesmerizing "Peace Beyond Passion"....
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...and then she followed that with the STILL mesmerizing "Peace Beyond Passion"....