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Subject: "What do you call it when Artist start overdoing it? Baroque Period? " Previous topic | Next topic
Buddy_Gilapagos
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Tue Aug-06-19 03:07 PM

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"What do you call it when Artist start overdoing it? Baroque Period? "


  

          

Swimming with Dolphin's period?

I am talking about that period or album after an artist blows up so they start doing stuff like adding orchestras or choirs to their songs when they were way more interesting with just like their small band or a mic and a dope beat. When they start doing collaborations not because it makes sense but because now they can get Elton John on the track.


I think of Prince when he went into his NPG phase. Axel Rose swimming with dolphins. I almost think of Kanye Late Registration but he actually kind of pulled it off.

You know what I am talking about? I am thinking the music heads would have a term for this. Is there?

If you know what I am talking about name some other artist and the albums in which they jumped that shark.


Or

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Sting
Aug 06th 2019
1
If Late Registration is Kanye's Baroque period
Aug 07th 2019
2
Honestly, I was thinking MBDTF may be his Baroque Album.
Aug 07th 2019
3
      Well, for starters the album cost close to $3M.
Aug 07th 2019
8
           Eh, his first 3 albums were all better than MBDTF
Aug 07th 2019
9
                I agree that MBDTF is a bit pretentious
Aug 08th 2019
12
                In the worst way possible IMO haha.
Aug 08th 2019
14
                LOL I've historically called it "My Beautiful Dark Pretentious Fantasy"
Aug 08th 2019
13
                     I'm not saying that I disagree with you
Aug 08th 2019
15
                          That's a fair point.
Aug 09th 2019
17
                          De La, the Roots, and Tribe had the meat and potatoes too
Aug 09th 2019
18
                               Yea they did have the meat and potatoes, you're right.
Aug 09th 2019
19
                               Yup - even on CD - like “Two Words”
Aug 09th 2019
20
                               I agree
Aug 09th 2019
24
                                    Word. I listened to it like 2 or 3 times when it dropped but ...
Aug 11th 2019
26
I forgot to mention this post was inspired by Chance's Big Day.
Aug 07th 2019
4
lmao! I knew it. I was gonna even mention the album here
Aug 07th 2019
5
      dude made a soundtrack?
Aug 07th 2019
6
      randy newman and shawn mendes are the biggest what??
Aug 07th 2019
7
"E.L.E." is probably the start of Busta Rhymes baroque period
Aug 07th 2019
10
thats a good example
Aug 09th 2019
21
yep.
Aug 13th 2019
31
LL Cool J's "14 Shots to the Dome"
Aug 07th 2019
11
lol why baroque?
Aug 09th 2019
16
RZA's Bobby Digital falls in this category for me
Aug 09th 2019
22
^
Aug 11th 2019
27
wasn't that when he lost so much work to the flood ???
Aug 13th 2019
28
i think freddie gibbs is in this mode rn
Aug 09th 2019
23
Maybe Radiohead - Kid A?
Aug 09th 2019
25
I forgot when an artist starts picking up a new instrument or genre.
Aug 13th 2019
29
Does D'Angelo playing the guitar on Black Messiah count for you?
Aug 13th 2019
32
      No. My dude spent like decades between albums getting nice with it.
Aug 13th 2019
33
           Good point.
Aug 14th 2019
34
The flyover planes in "Somebody's Gotta Die"
Aug 13th 2019
30
does kendrick's damn count for this?
Aug 17th 2019
35
Not for me. That was a dope album, just a different lane than TPAB
Aug 17th 2019
36
Doesn't count if you pull it off. I also don't count when an artist gets
Aug 19th 2019
37

Dj Joey Joe
Member since Sep 01st 2007
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Tue Aug-06-19 11:03 PM

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1. "Sting"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When Sting went solo, when his first few albums came out ("Dream Of The Blue Turtles", "Nothin Like The Sun", & "Soul Cages"), I liked the more mellow version of The Police type vibe, but then he started doing all these collaborations with world music & classical artists, and even getting into that new age sound even deeper but once in a while still try to do a few modern-vibe rock ballad tunes on the same album as well; but during each of those albums he would drop a live album with an artist you didn't think he would get with (and he still does that, those Shaggy collaborations wasn't good to me but I guess some people loved it), do a Spanish album, a semi-classical album, celtic albums, & etc.

https://DjJoeyJoe.bandcamp.com/album/Emerald-Dust

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

  

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obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
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Wed Aug-07-19 12:25 AM

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2. "If Late Registration is Kanye's Baroque period "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

what would you call My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy? I thought the Kanye album you would reference would be MBDTF. You bring up the point about LR and with good reason because that album was trying too hard in a lot of ways. But like you said, he managed to make it all stick.

Or would MBDTF be like Smile! but actually released on time?

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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3. "Honestly, I was thinking MBDTF may be his Baroque Album. "
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

But I actually don't know that album well enough to know it's accurate. In fact, until I just googled it I didn't realize he had ELton John on that album. I mentioned Elton John in the OP as an exaggeration and was thinking of Eminem.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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obsidianchrysalis
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Wed Aug-07-19 06:18 PM

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8. "Well, for starters the album cost close to $3M."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

All of the Lights has brass and I *think* Elton John on it.

It's Late Registration on steroids, and that's saying something.

That being said, it's arguably his best album (at least in the press). No matter what style - banger, posse cut, introspection, musical virtuosity - it hits the mark.

I'm not really a Kanye guy but after listening to DISSECT's season on My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, the level of artistry really hit home. He put in his foot in that album.

  

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DJR
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Wed Aug-07-19 09:26 PM

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9. "Eh, his first 3 albums were all better than MBDTF"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

He made “big” records, both in sound and success, on those albums that weren’t nearly as long and pretentious.

  

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obsidianchrysalis
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12. "I agree that MBDTF is a bit pretentious"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

But it also raised the idea of what a hip-hop album could be.

Maybe it's not his best but it's probably his most 'important'. That being said, outside of Monster and Power, I don't listen to it as often as Late Registration or Graduation.

  

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Brew
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14. "In the worst way possible IMO haha."
In response to Reply # 12


          

>But it also raised the idea of what a hip-hop album could be.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Brew
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Thu Aug-08-19 08:31 AM

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13. "LOL I've historically called it "My Beautiful Dark Pretentious Fantasy""
In response to Reply # 9


          

>He made “big” records, both in sound and success, on
>those albums that weren’t nearly as long and pretentious.

And I hated how everyone was so quick to label it his best.

I thought the backstory about the Hawaii exile and all that was really cool. And I definitely appreciate what went into the album. Lot of really cool moments.

But it's pretentious as fuck. And nowhere near his best album.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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obsidianchrysalis
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15. "I'm not saying that I disagree with you"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

I had the same reaction of distaste when the videos to Power and Runaway dropped. 'How pretentious could you be? Making a hip-hop video about ballet? Another one with Renaissance imagery? GTFOH'

But couldn't the same be said of hip-hop fans who didn't like De la or The Roots or even Tribe for being 'arty' when hip-hop was more meat and potatoes?

BTW, I don't know why I'm trying to die on this hill. I didn't listen to the album for the longest and don't listen to it often. Must be happy to be back on OKP talking music. Ha!

  

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Brew
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Fri Aug-09-19 08:15 AM

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17. "That's a fair point."
In response to Reply # 15


          

My only counter to that argument would be that De La et al were significantly more talented and interesting. Haha.

And to be clear, I really like MBDTF. It was a grower for me.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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DJR
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Fri Aug-09-19 08:26 AM

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18. "De La, the Roots, and Tribe had the meat and potatoes too"
In response to Reply # 15
Fri Aug-09-19 08:30 AM by DJR

  

          

I like MBDTF a lot more than any of his albums that have come out since. But it doesn’t compare to the first 3 IMO.

I mean....if anything, College Dropout was the one that was a bit influenced by Tribe and them. And that was a fantastic album.

MBDTF - I don’t know. Someone plays the same piano note for two minutes before Kanye starts warbling all dramatically about how much of a douche bag he is, and clowns are all “this is beyond the constraints of hip hop!” GTFOH. I hated that aspect of that album. Like I said....pretentious. Like it was “above” hip hop or something.

There were some great songs and moments on the album. All that extra stuff and the presentation of it hurt the album to me though.

  

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Brew
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Fri Aug-09-19 09:16 AM

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19. "Yea they did have the meat and potatoes, you're right."
In response to Reply # 18


          

>RE: De La, the Roots, and Tribe had the meat and potatoes too

>I like MBDTF a lot more than any of his albums that have come
>out since. But it doesn’t compare to the first 3 IMO.
>
>I mean....if anything, College Dropout was the one that was a
>bit influenced by Tribe and them. And that was a fantastic
>album.
>
>MBDTF - I don’t know. Someone plays the same piano note for
>two minutes before Kanye starts warbling all dramatically
>about how much of a douche bag he is, and clowns are all
>“this is beyond the constraints of hip hop!” GTFOH. I
>hated that aspect of that album. Like I said....pretentious.
>Like it was “above” hip hop or something.
>
>There were some great songs and moments on the album. All
>that extra stuff and the presentation of it hurt the album to
>me though.

Yea totally agreed. Someone noted that Late Registration stretched the limits of hip-hop and I agree, but on that album he went about it wayyyyyyy more tastefully and less pretentiously.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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DJR
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Fri Aug-09-19 09:29 AM

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20. "Yup - even on CD - like “Two Words”"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

That worked too, on the same front.



  

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obsidianchrysalis
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24. "I agree"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

AFKAP (NERL) once made a post that said that Black music works best as folk art than high art. MBDTF is aiming for high art and it succeeds at that I guess but because it is high art I don't regard it as well as his more traditional albums.

Like you and Brew have been saying the album is a bit of a mess and its reception seemed obnoxious. So much so it took me several years to actually sit down and listen to it.

There are some great moments on it but like you, MBDTF isn't a favorite of Kanye's stuff but it is the best of the second 'phase' of his career.

  

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Brew
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26. "Word. I listened to it like 2 or 3 times when it dropped but ..."
In response to Reply # 24


          

>Like you and Brew have been saying the album is a bit of a
>mess and its reception seemed obnoxious. So much so it took me
>several years to actually sit down and listen to it.

... never appreciated it (beyond a couple of tracks) until like 3 or 4 years later.

I knew after 808s he'd never be the same, even going back to his rap roots. Once you make an album like that you're kinda saying you think you're more talented than you are lol

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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4. "I forgot to mention this post was inspired by Chance's Big Day. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Hitokiri
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5. "lmao! I knew it. I was gonna even mention the album here"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

but I was just railing about it in another post.
But yeah. EnVouge, SWV, Death Cab for Cutie, Shawn Mendes, CocoRosie, Randy Newman... in addition to Nickie, DaBaby, Gucci, Megan Thee... like what are you even going for?

--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

"There is only one god and his name is death. And there is only one thing we say to death: not today."

  

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tariqhu
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6. "dude made a soundtrack?"
In response to Reply # 5


          

that's a lot of folks.

you probably think you're cooler than me

  

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mista k5
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7. "randy newman and shawn mendes are the biggest what??"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

to me the chance album sounded like trying to recreate late registration era albums. big budget albums were so bloated back then.

i didnt hate the chance album but it definitely needed some trimming.

  

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mrhood75
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Wed Aug-07-19 11:45 PM

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10. ""E.L.E." is probably the start of Busta Rhymes baroque period"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I don't think it ever really stopped for him though.

He'd had long albums before, but that one was 80 minutes. Overblown production. Janet Jackson AND Ozzy Osborn features. Just too much.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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mista k5
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21. "thats a good example"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

i had that cd and i rocked with it. it still has some of my favorite songs but so much filler.

  

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LeroyBumpkin
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31. "yep."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

@dseals | @digife
https://digife.com

  

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mrhood75
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11. "LL Cool J's "14 Shots to the Dome""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Though I guess some would say "Walking With a Panther," but I feel like that album gets a bad rap.

After going back to basics with "Mama Said..." he got waaaaaay into excess with "14 Shots..." and did way too much. Tried kicking hardcore gangsta shit. Multiple attempts to recreate the success of "Around the Way Girl." And "Crossroads," with its full orchestra is just overblown nonsense.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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shockzilla
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16. "lol why baroque?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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spitfire
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22. "RZA's Bobby Digital falls in this category for me"
In response to Reply # 0


          

RZA changed it up and went all out with the instruments to disappointing results (and i liked his Bobby album)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://vintagesoulmusic.tumblr.com
http://vintagehiphopmusic.tumblr.com
http://onetwann.tumblr.com

  

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Brew
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27. "^"
In response to Reply # 22


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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28. "wasn't that when he lost so much work to the flood ???"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

....seems like he just said fuck it and started making lazy doo doo with keyboards


  

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bearfield
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23. "i think freddie gibbs is in this mode rn "
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Aug-09-19 04:04 PM by bearfield

  

          

he's way overdoing it on /bandana/. his rapping feels like mahavishnu orchestra-era john mclaughlin guitar solos when it needs to be more like eddie hazel, especially over low-key, soulful madlib beats. he's doing the voice straining/breaking thing way too often, he's rapping in the triplet flow when it's unnecessary and doesn't gel with the beat, and his pocket is weirdly in and out. he's lost his measured delivery in favor of this forced expressiveness and it's not working for me. i think it started with "andrea" from /you only live 2wice/ and he's just kept it going since

https://imgur.com/e4O6kby

  

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obsidianchrysalis
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25. "Maybe Radiohead - Kid A?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Granted the band made some great music in the second part of their career. But like Kanye's MBDTF they completely changed the way they approached their album, the main songwriter seemed to be in the middle of a nervous breakdown, the praise of the album was a bit over the top, and the songs seem to be trying too hard.

And there are strings. (How to Disappear Completely)

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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29. "I forgot when an artist starts picking up a new instrument or genre. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I am thinking of Lauren Hill deciding she is a guitarist. Same with B.O.B.

Common discovering Jimmy Hendrix.

Mos Def and his rock band?

Someone mentioned RZA going to live instruments.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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obsidianchrysalis
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Tue Aug-13-19 05:40 PM

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32. "Does D'Angelo playing the guitar on Black Messiah count for you? "
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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33. "No. My dude spent like decades between albums getting nice with it."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

At least he was good enough that I never thought, who is that subpar guitar player on this song?

  

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obsidianchrysalis
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34. "Good point."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

His playing was good. Much better than Lauryn or Dre 3K on their Baroque albums.

  

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LeroyBumpkin
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30. "The flyover planes in "Somebody's Gotta Die""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The first song on Biggie's Life After Death had the sound effects of the flyover planes. I was like, "Oh snap, they got money now!" That's the first thing I thought of when I read this post.

@dseals | @digife
https://digife.com

  

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agentzero
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35. "does kendrick's damn count for this?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

To people like US, a record is a piece of history. A moment in time.
most people don't get it.

www.musicofcolor.bandcamp.com
http://www.mixcloud.com/musicofcolor

  

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justin_scott
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36. "Not for me. That was a dope album, just a different lane than TPAB"
In response to Reply # 35


          

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Aug-19-19 10:52 AM

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37. "Doesn't count if you pull it off. I also don't count when an artist gets"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

for lack of a better way to describe it, "too deep" or decides to become less commercial.


De La Soul's Buhloone Mindstate was a departure from De La Soul is dead and way less accessible, but it's an amazing album.

Or even Prince deciding to do follow up the monster Purple Rain with Around the World in a Day.

It seems like in both instances the artist knew they were making a smaller less accessible record.

I think artist go wrong when they try to make a BIG artsy record and they think the rules of pop songs don't apply anymore and they can make anything into a pop record.

If that makes sense.



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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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