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Subject: "Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers?" Previous topic | Next topic
obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
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Mon Apr-08-19 05:30 PM

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"Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers?"
Mon Apr-08-19 05:31 PM by obsidianchrysalis

  

          

I know Prince's songs are almost impossible to clear. Outside of It Ain't Hard to Tell, are there any other songs which had the clearance to use a MJ sample.

A lot of the musicans which made classic music from the 60's and 70's are almost impossible to get access to apparently. Have The Beatles ever been sampled. I know the Stones were sampled for Bittersweet Symphony but that deal was crazy. The Rolling Stones got all of the royalties for that song, didn't they? Marvin Gaye's catalog probably won't be touched again after Blurred Lines.

Any other groups or solo artists who are really reluctant to license their songs?

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
From what I understand...
Apr 08th 2019
1
Wow.
Apr 08th 2019
2
      RE: Wow.
Apr 08th 2019
3
RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers...
Apr 08th 2019
4
RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers...
Apr 09th 2019
6
LL among others
Apr 09th 2019
8
lol, not to pile on but,
Apr 10th 2019
14
      Breakadawn is another obvious one, I forgot.
Apr 12th 2019
16
RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers...
Apr 08th 2019
5
RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers...
Apr 09th 2019
7
      many of the musicians
Apr 09th 2019
9
Prince allowed it sometimes
Apr 09th 2019
10
I've Always Wondered If MC Lyte Crew Had To Pay Prince For "Paper Thin"?
Apr 10th 2019
12
Well, there was a video..
Apr 10th 2019
13
Correction:
Apr 11th 2019
15
Prince 1ce said he generally prefers a positive theme or album conclusio...
May 30th 2019
23
Steely Dan Usually Wants Almost All Publishing As Well
Apr 10th 2019
11
RE: Steely Dan Usually Wants Almost All Publishing As Well
Apr 13th 2019
18
uptown baby, uptown baby
May 24th 2019
20
Erick Sermon appears to get to sample Marvin a lot
Apr 12th 2019
17
Not Bitter, Just Sweet: The Rolling Stones Give Royalties To The Verve (...
May 23rd 2019
19
The Beatles were heavily sampled between 1987-1991 but post-Turtles laws...
May 27th 2019
21
RE: The Beatles were heavily sampled between 1987-1991 but post-Turtles ...
May 30th 2019
24
Coko said MJ gave them "Human Nature" for free
May 30th 2019
22

seandammit
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Mon Apr-08-19 05:58 PM

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1. "From what I understand..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Sting takes 100% of the publishing if you sample him.

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www.twitter.com/seandammit

  

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obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
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Mon Apr-08-19 07:41 PM

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2. "Wow."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Is that based off the arrangement Sting made with Puff for I'll Be Missing You?

  

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seandammit
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Mon Apr-08-19 08:14 PM

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3. "RE: Wow."
In response to Reply # 2


          

That and the JUICEWRLD scenario (though I believe that also wasn’t cleared in advance)

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Mon Apr-08-19 08:58 PM

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4. "RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

>I know Prince's songs are almost impossible to clear. Outside
>of It Ain't Hard to Tell, are there any other songs which had
>the clearance to use a MJ sample.

Think there's quite a few actually. SWV sampled that same MJ song right ? Then Kanye w/PYT on "Good Life". Can't think of others off the top of my head but I know they're out there.

Oh Dilla/Q-Tip sampled Jackson 5 for "Move" though that's not MJ solo obviously.

----------------------------------------

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obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
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6. "RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>>I know Prince's songs are almost impossible to clear.
>Outside
>>of It Ain't Hard to Tell, are there any other songs which
>had
>>the clearance to use a MJ sample.
>
>Think there's quite a few actually. SWV sampled that same MJ
>song right ? Then Kanye w/PYT on "Good Life". Can't think of
>others off the top of my head but I know they're out there.
>
>Oh Dilla/Q-Tip sampled Jackson 5 for "Move" though that's not
>MJ solo obviously.

You're right. I forgot about those songs. I thought MJ was more selective with the songs he allowed for use because his work seems so geared for sampling, with the great melodies and rhythm sections.

  

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howardlloyd
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Tue Apr-09-19 06:11 PM

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8. "LL among others "
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

sampled lady in my life

off the wall has also been touched

mike wasnt against the sampling of his work

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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Dstl1
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14. "lol, not to pile on but,"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Prince Paul used "I Can't Help It" for De La's "Breakadawn". Don't know who controls the Jackson 5 stuff, so QTip using Dancing Machine and Naughty by Nature using ABC probably don't count.

...cleaned up my act, made a few violent songs...but, they wack like Glen Rice with New Balance on - Sean Price

  

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obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
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Fri Apr-12-19 06:04 PM

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16. "Breakadawn is another obvious one, I forgot."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

  

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mrhood75
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Mon Apr-08-19 10:30 PM

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5. "RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>I know Prince's songs are almost impossible to clear. Outside
>of It Ain't Hard to Tell, are there any other songs which had
>the clearance to use a MJ sample.

As Brew said, there have been a bunch. Off the top, MC Lyte & Exscape,. De La Soul. LL Cool J, Kanye West, Naughty By Nature. Mobb Deep, etc. In terms of Jackson 5, I'm sure Puff Daddy cleared the interpolation of "One More Chance" for Biggie and "Good to Be Here" for the breakdown on "Benjamins." Naughty By Nature gave up a huge amount of their publishing to sample "ABC" for "O.P.P."


>Have The Beatles ever been sampled.

Yes, also a bunch of times. The one group who talked about it were The Beastie Boys.

I know the Stones were
>sampled for Bittersweet Symphony but that deal was crazy. The
>Rolling Stones got all of the royalties for that song, didn't
>they?

Yep. And The Verve can't ever perform it again or put it on any of their greatest hits albums.

And they didn't even sample the Rolling Stones proper. They sampled a cover of "Time is On My Side" by the London Philharmonic.

But other people have sampled the Stones too.

Marvin Gaye's catalog probably won't be touched again
>after Blurred Lines.

All Motown records are notoriously costly to sample, even before Robin Thicke.

>Any other groups or solo artists who are really reluctant to
>license their songs?

Sampling or licensing for movies/TV shows/commercials?

For the former, I'd imagine almost all of them are cost prohibitive these days. Unless you have a HUGE major label budget.

But of the artists who were notoriously costly back in the '90s, once sample clearances became a money maker, were James Brown, The Crusaders, Barry White, most of the Stax artists, etc.

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obsidianchrysalis
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Tue Apr-09-19 05:39 PM

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7. "RE: Which musicians restrict licensing their music to sampling producers..."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>I know the Stones were
>>sampled for Bittersweet Symphony but that deal was crazy.
>The
>>Rolling Stones got all of the royalties for that song,
>didn't
>>they?
>
>Yep. And The Verve can't ever perform it again or put it on
>any of their greatest hits albums.
>
>And they didn't even sample the Rolling Stones proper. They
>sampled a cover of "Time is On My Side" by the London
>Philharmonic.
>
>But other people have sampled the Stones too.
>

Yet another reason I've never been a fan of The Stones.

>>Any other groups or solo artists who are really reluctant to
>>license their songs?
>
>Sampling or licensing for movies/TV shows/commercials?
>
>For the former, I'd imagine almost all of them are cost
>prohibitive these days. Unless you have a HUGE major label
>budget.
>
>But of the artists who were notoriously costly back in the
>'90s, once sample clearances became a money maker, were James
>Brown, The Crusaders, Barry White, most of the Stax artists,
>etc.

I meant sampling, but the info you dropped was good to read. It's interesting you mention Brown and the Stax artists because there was that period of the early 90's where everyone was using James Brown samples. And then Isley Brothers and Barry White samples in the mid 90's. And they just kind of vanished. I'm sure part of that was simply trends moving on but I guess the financial aspect curtailed sampling of those artists.

I can't blame the old school artists for wanting to get paid tho. (within reason) Keeping their rates low would have been great for the community of musicians and the artistry, but the original musicians deserve to be compensated for their work.

Although I wish there was some sort of pre-negotiated sliding scale which sampling producers could work from to prevent issues like The Stones from monopolizing their music. That just doesn't seem in the spirit of art, especially since The Stones' whole image is built off of stealing the essence of Black blues artists, to the best of my knowledge.

  

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howardlloyd
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9. "many of the musicians"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

didnt own their masters

even those who own their publishing... hardly ANYBODY in the 70s owned the SOUND RECORDING outside of the labels

there are two copyrights for music - PA/SR

PA is the actual song... on paper...

SR is the actual sound recording. the tape/file that leaves the mastering studio
is OWNED by the label...

hence the label licensing songs without regard to the artists wishes.

its also the most cost heavy of the copyrights to clear

http://howardlloyd.bandcamp.com

  

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OKdamn
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Tue Apr-09-19 11:24 PM

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10. "Prince allowed it sometimes"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Apr-09-19 11:33 PM by OKdamn

          

Nice n Smooth - No Delayin
https://youtu.be/7eOii-zu3cw
2pac - Hearts Of Men
Hammer-Pray
Sir Mix A Lot - Beepers
De La - Lovely How I Let My Mind Float https://youtu.be/L4UM8U3JPZs
PE -Brothers Gonna Work It Out
Digital Underground -Wassup With The Love https://youtu.be/HACgp9bZDzE
UTFO-Diss https://youtu.be/coLWPIZZj3U
...off the top..

  

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Dj Joey Joe
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12. "I've Always Wondered If MC Lyte Crew Had To Pay Prince For "Paper Thin"?"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

"Paper Thin" samples one of my favorite Prince songs "17 Days" and I've always wondered if that was during the time when some rap songs were flying under the radar or if they cleared it thru the label but not by Prince himself?


https://DjJoeyJoe.bandcamp.com/album/Emerald-Dust

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

  

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OKdamn
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Wed Apr-10-19 10:55 AM

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13. "Well, there was a video.."
In response to Reply # 12
Wed Apr-10-19 11:05 AM by OKdamn

          

..so Prince had to know about it. I'm assuming Prince cleared it himself..maybe someone at Atlantic which was distributed by Warners made a phone call? I'm just speculating..

I'm assuming that if Prince liked an artist, he would let it ride. Whether or not he took any money, I would say no because he definitely wasn't hurting for cash. Maybe he did.

Perhaps team Lyte asked Prince directly? Whatever happened, he didn't trip.

  

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OKdamn
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15. "Correction:"
In response to Reply # 10
Thu Apr-11-19 01:51 AM by OKdamn

          

I went and did some looking and fact finding
..turns out that Prince (or WB) let alot of people sample his music.

Even unheard of rappers that probably work a forklift job now.

So....what tf do I know.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
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23. "Prince 1ce said he generally prefers a positive theme or album conclusio..."
In response to Reply # 10


          

in order to be cool with his music being sampled.
Not sure if all the examples where he allowed it are consistent with that, but it never surprised me that Hammer's "Pray" got the green light with Prince's religious leanings.

~
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~
~
~
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Everything's turning out perfectly

  

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Dj Joey Joe
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11. "Steely Dan Usually Wants Almost All Publishing As Well"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I know De La Soul had issues but not sure how much of their publishing was given to Steely Dan (but I'm not sure if DLS even knows since it was handled without them being there by the owner of the label who they still got beef with today).

Peter Gunz & Lord Tariq had to give all their publishing away plus $115,000, cause of that even though they recorded the album hoping to strike gold again with another hit with "We Will Ball" (which was dope but didn't get much push if you ask me), and "Cross Bronx Expressway" which was popular on the mixtape & underground radio shows circuit but not with commercial radio, but the album did go platinum but all that did was just pay for making the album and clearing the sample for "Deja Vu"; sidenote that album had samples from MJ & Marvin.

Conyay Mess also sampled Steely Dan for his song "Champion", they wouldn't clear it when he first submitted it but he had to write them a letter or something to convince them, I wouldn't be surprised they made him pay a ton of cash and probably most of publishing of the song as well.

3rd Bass also sampled them for the song "No Static At All" off their wack second album, not sure the story behind it but Def Jam always got money & clout to get a sample cleared.


https://DjJoeyJoe.bandcamp.com/album/Emerald-Dust

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

  

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seandammit
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Sat Apr-13-19 01:26 PM

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18. "RE: Steely Dan Usually Wants Almost All Publishing As Well"
In response to Reply # 11


          


>Conyay Mess also sampled Steely Dan for his song "Champion",
>they wouldn't clear it when he first submitted it but he had
>to write them a letter or something to convince them, I
>wouldn't be surprised they made him pay a ton of cash and
>probably most of publishing of the song as well.


Steely Dan took 100% of the publishing.

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Stevie Lee
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20. "uptown baby, uptown baby"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

https://youtu.be/VUKCQfLY7nQ

  

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spirit
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17. "Erick Sermon appears to get to sample Marvin a lot"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

> Marvin Gaye's catalog probably won't be touched again
>after Blurred Lines.

E Double has gotten at least two Marvin looks. Bet he could get a third.

>Any other groups or solo artists

The Turtles?

I feel like there is a major one I’m forgetting.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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obsidianchrysalis
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19. "Not Bitter, Just Sweet: The Rolling Stones Give Royalties To The Verve (..."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu May-23-19 08:39 PM by obsidianchrysalis

  

          

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/23/726227555/not-bitter-just-sweet-the-rolling-stones-give-royalties-to-the-verve

MUSIC NEWS
Not Bitter, Just Sweet: The Rolling Stones Give Royalties To The Verve
May 23, 20194:26 PM ET
Anastasia Tsioulcas

After more than 20 years, the Rolling Stones and The Verve have resolved a sour dispute over the authorship of the song "Bitter Sweet Symphony." The Verve's frontman and co-founder, Richard Ashcroft, announced on Wednesday that the situation has finally been laid to rest.

Ashcroft explained the change as he received a lifetime achievement honor — an Ivor Novello Award, a British prize for songwriting and composition. "As of last month," Ashcroft said in comments reported by the BBC, "Mick Jagger and Keith Richards signed over all their publishing for 'Bitter Sweet Symphony,' which was a truly kind and magnanimous thing for them to do." A rep for the Rolling Stones confirmed the change to NPR.

Last November, however, Ashcroft struck a clangingly different chord about the financial dispute in an interview for the Consequence of Sound podcast Kyle Meredith With.... At the time he said, "I'm coming for that money. Someone stole God-knows-how-many million dollars off me in 1997, and they've still got it."

The Verve, a Britpop band that has broken up and reunited several times but gave its last performance in 2008, first became famous in 1997 on the strength of "Bitter Sweet Symphony," which became a hit in the U.K. and the U.S. and across Europe.

Nearly from the get-go, however, the tune's authorship was challenged: The Verve's lead singer, Ashcroft, wrote the lyrics, but the song's instrumentals leaned heavily on a version of the Stones' "The Last Time" — specifically, on an orchestral arrangement recorded in 1965 by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra, a side project from Andrew Loog Oldham, the Stones' manager and record producer, who enlisted various session musicians and arranger David Whitaker to create symphonic versions of Stones songs.

The Verve received permission from Decca, the record label that had released the orchestral album, to use a few notes of the string melody from the Andrew Oldham Orchestra instrumentals in exchange for half of The Verve's royalties on "Bitter Sweet Symphony."

But Allen Klein, who managed the Stones in the late 1960s and who controlled the band's song copyrights through 1970, sued The Verve for plagiarism shortly after "Bitter Sweet Symphony" was released, saying that the younger Brits had used far more of "The Last Time" than was mutually agreed upon and that The Verve's use was not just a small sample but infringed on the songwriters' rights.

In late 1997, The Verve settled with Klein; the band gave Jagger and Richards songwriter credits on "Bitter Sweet Symphony" and gave its publishing royalties to ABKCO Records, Klein's company.

Oldham, meanwhile, separately sued The Verve in 1999 for about $1.7 million in mechanical — that is, songwriter — royalties. As a result of the two suits against The Verve, all royalty payments on "Bitter Sweet Symphony" went to Oldham, Jagger and Richards for many years. It's not clear how much money that represented in the years since The Verve hit it big, but in 2008, Oldham joked to British magazine Uncut that he had purchased "a pretty presentable watch strap" with his share of the song.

Ashcroft told the BBC after Wednesday's ceremony that he found the agreement "life affirming" and added that there is at least one ancillary benefit: He can watch international soccer tournaments again.

"They play before England plays," he observed. "So I can sit back and watch England ... and finally just enjoy the moment."

  

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johnbook
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Mon May-27-19 05:13 PM

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21. "The Beatles were heavily sampled between 1987-1991 but post-Turtles laws..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...they made sure no one sampled them. In those who sampled them, it was done without permission. That's not saying they approved but they or their publishers weren't aware. The Beastie Boys heavily sampled them on PAUL'S BOUTIQUE, 3rd Bass sampled "I Am The Walrus". there was a soul song from the late 80's/early 90's that used "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Reprise)" but once they realized the money involved, they said "absolutely not".

On the other hand, Paul McCartney has allowed a few to sample his solo work, including Erykah Badu but in this case, she went out of her way to make an effort to contact him directly and he said it was okay. Nonetheless, everyone else hasn't done it, partly because by the time he approved of some, sampling was becoming less worthy.

In other words, while many got away with musical thievery between 1986-1991, once people were legitimately getting caught post-Flo & Eddie, that's how everyone got involved. That's how Aaron Fuchs ended up buying songs that were considered "dead" for the sake of cashing in on other musicians who didn't have labels or publishing.


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Theodore_
Member since Jan 12th 2011
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Thu May-30-19 06:59 PM

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24. "RE: The Beatles were heavily sampled between 1987-1991 but post-Turtles ..."
In response to Reply # 21


          

>On the other hand, Paul McCartney has allowed a few to sample
>his solo work, including Erykah Badu but in this case, she
>went out of her way to make an effort to contact him directly
>and he said it was okay. Nonetheless, everyone else hasn't
>done it, partly because by the time he approved of some,
>sampling was becoming less worthy.

I always liked the instrumental for Knocturnal's Muzik. An early Kanye production with a Wings sample https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkoF9YepdQ4

It's a shame they weren't more lenient, the OG Thought At Work was sooooo good

--
https://soundcloud.com/teddyrucks/02-april

  

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jaywonder
Member since Jun 05th 2007
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Thu May-30-19 01:56 AM

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22. "Coko said MJ gave them "Human Nature" for free"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When Monica asked for PYT for All Eyez on Me, MJ sent over the multitracks . There's also Don't Stop The Music by Rihanna that samples Startin' Somethin'

  

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