Beyonce got Just Blaze on there.
Diplo
Weeknd.
Jack White.
Mike Dean.
Oh yeah, Kendrick on the Just Blaze beat.
Spottie Ottie sample. so Organized Noize.
James Fauntelroy.


Her engineers are some of the best.
Her records always sound stadium status.


and she shot the whole HBO thing in my hometown of New Orleans
it looks like. Solange made B fall in love with Nola.

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

I'm honestly curious...

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

I guess I don't pay close enough attention.

I just dig the new (I guess?) self-love, black Bey that is pi$$ing white people off.

**shrugs**

I wish Jay would use his position to make folks uncomfortable as well...

much credence you give his opinions on anything Beyonce, a Black woman, creates.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

Or her handlers do anyway

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

what does it matter?

How is it a bad thing if she inspires/helps little girls of color, gets her white fans to think differently, pi$$es off white folks, upsets Police unions, etc...

Lets say that is manufactured for some reason....

How can any of those be bad??

Aren't there literally a million worse "manufactured" messages out there?

I'm not saying she is Chuck D of course, but for an artist in her position to do the stuff she has done lately??

I dunno man, I think it can only be a good thing. Even if she and her handlers are doing it strictly for sales, there are far far far worse things to sell.

Are often the same ones in denial when we say "negative" music harms folks

And I'm not convinced that a positive message built around idolatry of a single individual, gossipy shit about her personal life & identity politics that seem to ignore social-economic factors in favor of racial factors are, in fact, positive

But I'm a weirdo

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

project your inadequacies onto Beyonce.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

Is unsurprising

Red Lobster appreciates your business but I'd recommend your local Black owned establishment instead...just keep it swine free

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

The proof is in your posting, it can't be refuted.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

With friends, family, experiences, pain, joy, triumph & defeat

All that means infinitely more than your personal analysis of my posts on the internet

and after all that all you're ultimately doing is jock sniffing a pop star for selling you fake revolution on HBO

Game of Thrones was dope tho

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

You and I don't always agree (thought we sometimes do), but I've never seen you this closed off and willfully obtuse.

You really didn't answer my question/point, so let me say it this way-

Assuming Beyonce is going to exist. She is going to release music and attempt to maximize her sales/profit off of it, etc.

If you HAD to pick a subject matter and "message" or whatever....

wouldn't this be it??

Like, I'm not going to buy a Beyonce album. Matter of fact, I've never thought about her as much as I have tonight and Reformation weekend.

But I'll take Reformation over Single Ladies or whatever.

I'm not saying you need to be a fan either.

But can't you sit back and appreciate (or at least not hate) a huge pop star at this phase in her career speaking on this stuff??

While Jay is rapping about, what, his art and sh!t? smh

You at least have to admit she has more ball$ than her husband, no?

And miss me with that socio-economic factors are more important than race.

That is something white people say my dude. They are not mutually exclusive and only white men think one trumps the other.

People who have never experienced racism preach that socio-economic stuff like they learned it Sophomore year. Cmon now...


Channel all the rap music you have heard over your life and put yourself in other people (of color) shoes.

If she helps little girls feel beautiful then I'm cool.

I'm always wierded out when I come across a huge music fan who doesn't believe in the power of music. Especially a hip hop head.

Now again, I'm not saying you have to be a fan or whatever. But "f**K Beyonce" seems a tad extreme in the grand scheme of things....

I totally agree with this:

"I'm always wierded out when I come across a huge music fan who doesn't believe in the power of music. Especially a hip hop head."

It's like what were you listening this whole time. Most of the music is about the trials and tribulations of growing up nonwhite and/or underpriveleged in America.

______________________________
PSN ID - muzuabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/muz_e/

starting with the Formation video. I can understand the being fake criticism, because she's developed a whole different outlook in her music now, but being fake implies she using this to sell out and/or earn more sales i.e. appealing more to her white fanbase. I just don't see that.

#NP: Janelle Monae-DC, Pusha T-Daytona, Royce-Book of Ryan, Blue Note All-Stars-OPOV, Chris Dave/Drumhedz-Glow, Conway-GOAT, Black Milk-Fever, KRIT-4eva Is a Mighty.., Phonte-NNIGN, August Greene, Jericho Jackson
@LargesseMorlu

White folks are UPset.

I think the most valid criticism is "she waited for someone like Kendrick to prove you can sill be successful"...but even than I'll just say "better late than never"

Maybe because I had zero opinion/expectations prior?

**shrugs**

>
>White folks are UPset.
>
>I think the most valid criticism is "she waited for someone
>like Kendrick to prove you can sill be successful"...but even
>than I'll just say "better late than never"
>
>Maybe because I had zero opinion/expectations prior?
>
>**shrugs**
>

Maybe it's like the critic wrote about what Duck needed on 5 heartbeats. Aka she's 'better' now because she's suffered more.

Maybe it's tough to sell 'struggle' when you were cute from birth, medium skinned in Houston, fine at 15, and famous before 21 with your friends around you, your mama as your designer, and your dad as your manager.

But now? She has a 'hive' who goon it up to folks who come at her in any way. They walk around with that Birdman Respek seasnins in their bag. And sure, a chunk of that group IS a mess of confused folks who lack things and give Beyoncé the keys to stuff that no famous person needs the responsibility of having. But hey...

She's been 'reduced' to being just a pretty face with body parts after all she's pulled off so far. The gap between the folks who like and dislike her is crazy wide. And yep..them fite wolks had her wrong whether it was her fault or not. And now, her beauty, riches, accomplishments, and increasing adult and 'black' content are 'too much' for some folks. She's also looked at as 'hova's trophy wife' by folks who can't understand that she came into that as a growing star and she a helluva ways away from jumpin jumpin.

She had to lose her pops as her manager to move to the next phase of her career. Oh...and of course he had to be out there tagging chicks on the side and of course he grinds his way up on a side baby for the ultimate five fingers to the face to her mom and her. Fame can't make that not hurt.

Oh...and she's had to walk around with rumors that Jigga can't stay away from the hoes, other folks' chicks, and others for like forever. And as she ages and those years together stack up, that absolutely has to get old. Even for superstar rich ass Beyoncé. And yep, there's the thing that links her to most women who has been through something who isn't too jealous of her to see it. It works on dudes with perspective too.

Add that all up + a miscarriage + feeling a responsibility to Blue and all of the (black) women who look to her for cues on how to be = now you have something to load Mama's Gun up with. And she's coming out like Contra with the spread. 'Finally'. Hating her because she didn't show some of this earlier on is ignoring how special the acts are who come up tough enough early enough to have a twang to their work early on.

Even Prince had Purple Rain to humanize him to help take him to the next level of popularity. But don't start me on how much people underestimate Purple Rain. Some other time...

>White folks are Upset.

"white folks" generally speaking as a monolithic group are still eating her shit up unfort.

white people are not mad

She is Huey at the Garden Party in the first episode of the boondocks

Effete white liberals love her, she's adorable to them...and she helps them live out their Black fantasies (Hill got that hot sauce!) & allows them to feel non racist while they continue to shit on actual poor people

Her hardcore fans, white or black, will follow her wherever she goes (and pay 300 to dance to her revolution)

She's a rich, gifted, faux-blonde from the burbs acting like she's "ghetto"...white folks think that shit is awesome

repressive desublimation won

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

>white people are not mad

So this is factually untrue. Did you not see the reactions to Formation? Police unions wanted to boycott her.


>Effete white liberals love her, she's adorable to them...and
>she helps them live out their Black fantasies (Hill got that
>hot sauce!) & allows them to feel non racist while they
>continue to shit on actual poor people

That's not really in her control nor a criticism of her. That's white racism. You could say this for Kendrick's White liberal racist fans, many white R&B or blues or jazz fans since like the Harlem Reconnaissance. I'm sure there's a TON of rappers, even legendary rappers, you listen to that this is the case.


>She's a rich, gifted, faux-blonde from the burbs acting like
>she's "ghetto"...white folks think that shit is awesome
>
>repressive desublimation won

"Acting pro-black," assuming she's fake like you say, isn't the same as acting ghetto or being from the hood, but you associate the two together, huh? Wow. But honestly, I could give two fucks, what white people think of it. I judge the music, the art itself. And since the last album, she's been coming with some brilliant stuff. This lane is better for her than the cookie cutter R&B she was doing.

#NP: Janelle Monae-DC, Pusha T-Daytona, Royce-Book of Ryan, Blue Note All-Stars-OPOV, Chris Dave/Drumhedz-Glow, Conway-GOAT, Black Milk-Fever, KRIT-4eva Is a Mighty.., Phonte-NNIGN, August Greene, Jericho Jackson
@LargesseMorlu

Not at all interested in anything Beyoncé is selling to her ignorant fans.

edit - organized noize music (bmi)
the royalties collection plate.

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

I hate that I have to preface the rest of my statement by saying I have not ever been a Beyonce fan, but it feels like I do. The visual album is incredible, and it's too bad that people like those above me won't check it out because it's Beyonce. I haven't listen too the album yet, but I'm about to.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

I just couldn't care less about her message.

And your comment about her fans being ignorant is incredibly condescending.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

her fans are horrible at any negativity towards her, whether it's justified or not. i have a horrible impression of all these beyhive people. sure, a lot are probably cool, but wayyy too many act like complete fools.

************************************************************

I honestly have never heard more than 5 songs so I'm not being a defensive fan or anything.

I am legit curious what singular message she has that you don't care for?

but i don't think there's any point to denying what she's doing just because of her place in the industry landscape

is such a pleasure...a bish in awe.

A Black woman w/ her reach...to craft Lemonade the way she did?? The vision is ALL about the healing in Black sisterhood, the affirmation of Black womanhood, the joys + sorrows of Black motherhood, & the journey/reclamation of her own Black femme selfhood...just, 10s.Across.The.Board.The.
Ancestors.Smile.Upon.You.Beyoncé.Giselle.
Knowles.Carter.

Listen, I am a northeast negress through & through but my daddy people tho?...Black country folk from rural Ailey, Georgia & spread out in the South (Memphis-Jackson-Huntsville). I summer'd out there a lot, Louisiana ain't Georgia but I FEEL them visuals.

I will die on the hill proclaiming the GENIUS of Southern Black women & that Southern Black people are my heart.

Sonically, she is executing flawlessly...all while doing things we've never heard from her ("Daddy's Lessons" is a country record & a fucking awesome 1 @ that + "Forward" w/ James Blake, CHILLS).

Also, being born & raised in CT...I would like to apologize for this pleb calling themselves Anonymous, we don't know them or who sent for them.

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

This is some other shit.
I'm glad she's finally arrived at this point.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

Am I alone in feeling like w/ the exception of Sasha Fierce (I fuck w/ this album the least but it had cuts tho), every album has been better than the last which is a hella rare feat?...LoL, on 2nd thought, it's definitely too soon to be annoiting Lemonade tops but fuck it:

Dangerously in Love>B Day>4>Beyoncé>Lemonade

<<Mood...Poppy Okotcha in Look 1 at Ashish Fall 2016
________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa7KBq0q5bU

It is an interesting album. And I didn't really absorb it until I listened to it the second time. But I wanted to hear it a 2nd time all the way through so hey. And I'll play it again soon.

I have a Prince discography review going. I'm at Purple Rain but I might go back and listen to the Time too since I view it as a bonus disc to the Dirty Mind/Controversy/1999 'box set'. I'm also doing DJ Quik review too. Rosecrans pushed me back to Quik's Groove 3/Summer Breeze/Safe+Sound. I'm now at Rhythm-Al-ism...it is crazy to think he dropped that in 98. I used Lemonade as a break from both of those projects. I will watch the album some time this week and I'm guessing it will add to it quite a bit.

Zoomed out: at this point, I feel pretty strongly that she's doing a lot of good with some obviously strong resources. The way I'm hearing it, she's making lots of music that she 'doesn't have to make'. That sounds mean and maybe even unfair but that isn't what I'm getting at. She's a huge star and has been for quite a while. She could easily sit on it and make rando songs about absolutely nothing for 10 songs at a time 5x a decade, but she's pretty clearly going for something 'more' that 'means something to her'.

The best news for me is that this is an 11-song 'concept' album with Formation tacked on the end. AKA I was not in line with Formation as a song. And that was BEFORE it and Beyonce become a whole thing for horribly uninformed arguments, lazy 2016-level 'outrage', and 'we'll take this as our excuse to counter hate with hate' black unity to come out of all of their boxes.

It's like Ring the Alarm: The Album. And the lyrics are jarring because they hit and...well...you can easily believe that she's talking to Shawn on some if not all of it. I watch pro wrestling though. With that, I understand that I could be getting 'worked' on false context and I'm fine with it. Taking the sentiments as they are delivered without the need to validate/substantiate them as 'real' or all about her hubby or her singing as her mom, I can't get enough of Freedom and All Night...especially as the 'for now' conclusion to the 'story' she seems to be continuing throughout her discog.

And Just Blaze + Kendrick is just cheating on me...no way I'm not gonna dig that. And singing about working through it to a point where you can throw something on somebody over Spottie Oddie? Cut it out, B. Cut it out! I've made that song so meta in my mind already that its not even funny. I love it. And it is the hit here. That and Hold Up.

It is unfortunate that folks have 'decided' on her based on prior output or stuff other than the actual music. But hey...we clearly don't learn from how we did our handful of black megastars years ago. And I thought the whole Tupac thing got us over hating on acts mainly because some of their fans were for sure and impressively idiotic. But oh well...maybe not.

After a few listens, Lemonade is an emotional album with some stank on it. To me...she's easily much closer to living up to most projections folks put on her when her inevitable solo career finally started with Crazy In Love. Or at least I 'buy her as an artist'. For some reason, pop acts have struggled with that. And in this era, it is damn near impossible to be mostly loved for an extensive period of time. Heroes get made into villains all the time.

It's like becoming huge somehow means you aren't as 'real' as some unknown person cooing over spare guitars with syllable-heavy writing on mixtapes. Has the love for the hiphop 'come from nuthin' story really ruined us that bad? And filling up ARENAS with folks knowing, 'feeling', and caring about your lyrics is somehow trivial or cheap. Sometimes I struggle with the late-90s to now feeling like the underdog hour where if you get 'too big', the hate comes so hard. It's like MJ hurt folks and everyone coped by vowing to not let anyone else ever get big. Or maybe it was Pac/Big getting themselves shot? Or maybe Kells was the last straw. Or maybe it is just the volume of information out there and the way the innanet unites folks who feel the need to dislike stuff ESPECIALLY if they get the feeling that 'too many' people like something. I don't know...some other time...

>Beyonce got Just Blaze on there.
>Diplo
>Weeknd.
>Jack White.
>Mike Dean.
>Oh yeah, Kendrick on the Just Blaze beat.
>Spottie Ottie sample. so Organized Noize.
>James Fauntelroy.
>
>
>Her engineers are some of the best.
>Her records always sound stadium status.
>
>
>and she shot the whole HBO thing in my hometown of New Orleans
>
>it looks like. Solange made B fall in love with Nola.
>

>It's like becoming huge somehow means you aren't as 'real' as
>some unknown person cooing over spare guitars with
>syllable-heavy writing on mixtapes. Has the love for the
>hiphop 'come from nuthin' story really ruined us that bad? And
>filling up ARENAS with folks knowing, 'feeling', and caring
>about your lyrics is somehow trivial or cheap. Sometimes I
>struggle with the late-90s to now feeling like the underdog
>hour where if you get 'too big', the hate comes so hard. It's
>like MJ hurt folks and everyone coped by vowing to not let
>anyone else ever get big. Or maybe it was Pac/Big getting
>themselves shot? Or maybe Kells was the last straw. Or maybe
>it is just the volume of information out there and the way the
>innanet unites folks who feel the need to dislike stuff
>ESPECIALLY if they get the feeling that 'too many' people like
>something. I don't know...some other time...

Darfur Sucks! Free Paris (Hilton)! - Don Cheadle

www.abdulsmith.com

one has to wait between an album being released/a story breaking/etc. before making the obligatory "NO ________ POST?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" post can be made ? 5 hours ? 20 minutes ?

Worst trend in internet history.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

>one has to wait between an album being released/a story
>breaking/etc. before making the obligatory "NO ________
>POST?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" post can be made ? 5 hours ? 20
>minutes ?
>
>Worst trend in internet history.

Currently I vote for crying Jordan

Why won't they stop?!?

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

>Currently I vote for crying Jordan
>
>Why won't they stop?!?

I agree it's a little past its prime but it still serves a purpose.

The rhetorical question post title serves no purpose for anyone ever. And is totally senseless to begin with.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I hate that shit.

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

Just one of those things that irks me.

Like ..... nope, there's no ______ post, dude. You obviously noticed. Use this as an opportunity to be "first" and title it like a fucking adult.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

and might be my favorite B album (previous one being the self-titled).
There's alot going on here, some first favorite moments

Music:

- "Big Homie better grow up" (I chuckled)
- 6 Inch and the "Walk On By" (Isaac Hayes) sample
- Spottieottiedopaliscious sample
- Kendrick x Just Blaze (Freedom)
- The intro of Daddy Lessons
- Hold Up is a pretty great song
- the way the album is constructed

Visuals:

- I loved every moment, even the monologues between the songs...it had every chance to become annoying, but didn't
- Big Homie depicted in the most vulnerable way we've ever seen him, total break from the character he so carefully crafted throughout his own career.

http://islasoul.bandcamp.com

who else has shown such substantial growth over such an extended period of time?

Typically, stars of her caliber get less engaged and safer. She's gone the opposite direction and like, say, Outkast or the Beasties, the music has also gotten better over time. (Should Kanye rap about Chicago? That's not for me to decide, but the old Kanye would've and that's what makes current Kanye's apparent indifference especially disappointing.)

Lemonade is a phenomenal album. It's important without being IMPORTANT. In fact, it's mostly fun throughout. I love Kendrick and appreciate what he was going for but Butterfly isn't that much fun to listen to all the way through. This on the other hand is stunning; angst you can bounce to, social awareness with infectious melodies.

You look at the cast here and even there's even a narrative there; Kendrick Lamar, Jack White, Diplo, and The Weeknd are, I don't know, 4 of the 10 most essential male figures in popular music, and they're featured players here, working for HER.

This is more my wife's thing, but I'm now especially glad we're going to see her in Baltimore this Summer. This album rules.

1. "Pray You Catch Me"
Produced by Beyoncé and Kevin Garrett
Written By James Blake, Beyoncé, and Kevin Garrett

2. "Hold Up"
Produced by Ezra Koenig, Beyoncé, and Diplo
Written by Nick Zinner, Karen O, Brian Chase, Soulja Boy, Kevin McConnell, Antonio Randolph, Mort Schuman, Emile Haynie, Doc Pomus, MeLo-X, MNEK, Ezra Koenig, Beyoncé, Father John Misty, and Diplo

3. "Don't Hurt Yourself" f. Jack White
Produced by Beyoncé and Jack White
Written by John Bonham, John Paul Jones, Robert Plant, James Page, Wynter Gordon, Beyoncé, and Jack White

4. "Sorry"
Produced by Wynter Gordon, Beyoncé, and MeLo-X
Written by Wynter Gordon, Beyoncé, and MeLo-X

5. 6 Inch f. The Weeknd
Produced by boots, Beyoncé, Ben Billions, and Danny Boy Styles
Written By Hal David, Burt Bacharach, Brian Weitz, Noah Lennox, Dave Portner, ​boots, Belly, The-Dream, Ben Diehl, Danny SchofIeld, Beyoncé, The Weeknd

6. "Daddy Lessons"
Produced by Beyoncé
Written by Wynter Gordon, Beyoncé, Kevin Cossom, Alex Delicata

7. "Love Drought"
Produced by Mike Dean and Beyoncé
Written by Mike Dean, Ingrid Burley, Beyoncé

8. "Sandcastles"
Produced by Beyoncé and Vincent L. Berry II
Written by Vincent L. Berry II, Beyoncé, Malik Yusef, Midian Mathers

9. Forward f. James Blake
Produced by Beyoncé and James Blake
Written by Beyoncé and James Blake

10. Freedom f. Kendrick Lamar
Produced by Jonny Coffer, Beyoncé and Just Blaze
Written by Jonathan Coffer, Beyoncé, Carla Williams, Dean Mcintosh, Kendrick Lamar, Frank Tirado, Alan Lomax, and John Lomax Sr.

11. "All Night"
Produced by Diplo, Beyoncé, and Henry Allen
Written by Diplo, Beyoncé, Rock City, Ilsey Juber, Akil King, Jaramye Daniels, André 3000, Sleepy Brown, Big Boi

12. "Formation"
Produced by Mike WiLL Made It
Written by Swae Lee and Beyoncé
Posted: APRIL 23, 2016

http://islasoul.bandcamp.com

Beyonce don't write shit is the point i was making

the credits to go with it now

http://islasoul.bandcamp.com

backs up my point

how is her having writers and giving them credit, a problem?

especially when you see her name all over the credits, AND as producer?

i mean, when you see Leo D'Caprio in a film, do you ask how many of the lines he wrote?

i'm just not getting what you're trying to really say here.

d

when she barely writes a damn thing.
she's a singer.
and a performer.
i don't see her as much of an artist though.
it just makes me roll my eyes when people talk about her "brilliance", like, really? How brilliant do you have to be to sing a song that someone else wrote, produced, and arranged?

>when she barely writes a damn thing.
>she's a singer.
>and a performer.
>i don't see her as much of an artist though.
>it just makes me roll my eyes when people talk about her
>"brilliance", like, really? How brilliant do you have to be to
>sing a song that someone else wrote, produced, and arranged?

So wait, by your criteria...
- most jazz musicians weren't artists unless they were playing their own shit (when jazz originates in part out of a tradition that encourages reinvention of the music of others --- i.e., standards and traditionals)
- most jazz singers weren't artists (sorry Billie, Nina --- you didn't write enough songs of your own!)

Need I go on? Because the idea that musical artistry requires personal composition -- that that makes it more authentic -- is a rather modern invention of pop music, one that actually encourages the sort of idolatry that I think you are trying to discourage. I don't have a big leg in the Beyonce debates, but don't rely on bad reasoning to make your argument.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

for those that deserve it

>- most jazz musicians...

terrible counterpoint since jazz is largely based on solos and improvisation

>- most jazz singers weren't artists (sorry Billie, Nina ---
>you didn't write enough songs of your own!)

OK, i don't really have an argument here
except, are we really trying to prop up Beyonce by referencing Billie and Nina? Really? Thats like trying to defend Limp Bizkit by referencing Prince - pretty much a non-starter.
But we can say that even though Nina only wrote a fraction of her songs, what did she write? well, Four Women and Mississippi Goddamn for starters. Artist passport fucking STAMPED.

>Because the idea that musical artistry requires
>personal composition -- that that makes it more authentic

im not sure how you could possibly argue that personal composition DOESN'T make something more authentic. it damn near does by definition.

>for those that deserve it
>
>>- most jazz musicians...
>
>terrible counterpoint since jazz is largely based on solos and
>improvisation

Exactly: through their *performance* they claim and remake the work of others, and make art in the process (and affirm themselves as artists). They overcome the specificity of the original to remake it as their own... and thus, I think, to affirm the potential universality of a given piece.

>OK, i don't really have an argument here
>except, are we really trying to prop up Beyonce by referencing
>Billie and Nina? Really? Thats like trying to defend Limp
>Bizkit by referencing Prince - pretty much a non-starter.
>But we can say that even though Nina only wrote a fraction of
>her songs, what did she write? well, Four Women and
>Mississippi Goddamn for starters. Artist passport fucking
>STAMPED.

I'm arguing against the idea the one has to write his/her own material in order to be an artist, not that B specifically qualifies as an artist. I'm not comparing her in quality or legacy, only arguing with your original idea... which you already knew, I think, but decided to throw in stuff that has nothing to do with my original point.

Nina and Billie are great examples because they are *not* known as great songwriters. They wrote a number of great songs, many of them now standards. But they were fundamentally artists that made their name by interpreting and reinventing the works of others.

Apparently I did need to go on:
- Leadbelly didn't *write* "Midnight Special," but he made it his own... and this was common amongst early blues players (who often made names for themselves by playing common, traditional material)
- Jimi didn't write "All Along the Watchtower" but he made it his own (at a time when popular tunes circulated amongst performers like currency)
- Many if not most Motown artists didn't write their own shit
- Many if not most R&B artists since the '80s (or earlier) have worked with writers/producers/arrangers rather than writing their own tunes whole hog

And so on, and so on. Even the idea of a single writer that conveys authenticity to a tune is problematic in the modern pop arrangement, where a song's original performance is shaped and influenced, sometimes to an enormous degree, by the many studio musicians and engineers that stand between writing and execution.

>>Because the idea that musical artistry requires
>>personal composition -- that that makes it more authentic
>
>im not sure how you could possibly argue that personal
>composition DOESN'T make something more authentic. it damn
>near does by definition.

Here's how: it only lends authenticity if we believe that a given artist must have a personal, biographical connection to something written, that it comes out of their own experience, by their own pen. But it seems to me that the great potential of music, and of much art more generally (such as theater), is that art is made as much by interpretation as composition. Great performers of Schubert's songs or Chopin's nocturnes did not write a note, but they are not lesser artists because of it. Performance *is* art insofar as art requires interpretation of whatever is being re-presented at that moment. We can argue over the quality of the art itself, but the fact that A wrote X, and thus A's performance of X is necessarily more authentic than B's performance of X is out of sync, I think, with the long history of art and music more generally.

Or to put it another way: Billie wasn't only an artist when she sang "God Bless the Child." She was also an artist when she sang "Strange Fruit." The artist stamp doesn't get revoked during an interpretation of someone else's work. I'd argue that one's artist-ness is *affirmed* by successful performances/interpretations of the works of others.

I really don't care whether or not one chooses to call Beyonce an artist or a performer --- my only point is that artistry should not be restricted to those who write their own music, as if this is somehow more genuine than, say, the potential artistry of a pianist performing a Beethoven sonata, or a theater troupe putting on an August Wilson play.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

...I kid!!
Thank you for that incredibly thoughtful reply
I'm not even approaching the wherewithal to argue with that
But I'll just say that you definitely broadened my thoughts on the matter with your knowledge and insight

I don't really have much of an opinion on B's music, I have heard a lot of it and it really, generally, doesn't seem to be for me - I don't dig her stuff. BUT I have defended her so many times when people make this argument against her...it's so irritating that people use that argument against pop artists they don't like....

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https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

That "pop music" isn't what it was
A lot of bedrock classic musicians, they were making the pop music of their day
But dismissing current artists based on that classification is different IMO just because of what the genre has devolved in to

but TheBigFunk said literally exactly what I was going to say before I got back to my computer - and probably expressed it better than I could

I will say though, "pop music" not being what it "was" is literally the essence of pop music - what is popular will always change with the times.

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https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

of course she has help. she's had access, and has a history of good guidance, and at this point, plenty of $$$.

but plenty of people with a lot of those advantages put out garbage.

it's still her ear and her voice at the center of this.

>but plenty of people with a lot of those advantages put out garbage.

but just because a lot of other questionable "artists" are using the same system as her…
(I don't know if i would describe the system as a set of "advantages" - ultimately i think the system she uses is a disadvantage because it homogenizes her voice - if anything the people who contribute to her work are using HER voice to get out THEIRS, not the other way around)

...and creating shittier output, does not make her any sort of great artist just because she's doing it "better" (and by better I only mean more commercially successful)

this isn't rap. Its not like she has ghostwriters and is lying about writing everything.

Marvin Gaye
Luther
Whitney
TLC
Janet
Mariah
Michael Jackson

a ton of great artist have help writing songs.

The Stevie's and Prince's are rare as shit fam.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

And maybe I was being hyperbolic in search of my point
But...

>The Stevie's and Prince's are rare as shit fam.

...i honestly get the sense that her people's put her on this level. So I get kneejerk with it because at the end of the day she's just a singer, and a pretty far cry from the list you just ran down as well IMO

she's a vocal arranger.

a writer (yes, she actually does write songs)

a dancer

a consummate performer ( ever seen her live?)

and almost most importantly, a marketing and pr mastermind.

the way she controls her image and story and completely manipulates the media, doesn't give interviews and stays mysterious enough that we THINK we know her, but we really don't...

that shit genius.

d

we are witnessing Beyonce & her handlers use Black revolution at the Super Bowl & on Time-Warner HBO to create an image that will get people talking & move units

It's a hollow, empty revolution...focused not on political or social goals, but on identity politics & co opted imagery, going as far as using the devastation of Katrina & the murder of young men to sell tidal subscriptions

She learned from her husband who mastered commodifying the pain of the crack era for Americans to eat up and buttress their self reliance capitalist fantasies

And being that we live in an age where celebrity trumps substance & image is sufficient to satiate the masses...well here we are

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

it's just a good album.

http://islasoul.bandcamp.com

>
>it's just a good album.

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

Specifically black feminism and black empowerment?

No shit, another one.

Well heads up... Lemonade isn't for you.

It's not that deep bruh, it's music. A source of inspiration and entertainment.

Take it in or simply ignore it because you sound silly with the "revolution" talk.

___________________________
"To get high.. is to be miles above the sky..
at an altitude that creates envy in other creatures that fly.
Those jealous piegons!"
� me only seconds after bird shit landed on my swisher sweet filled with that good during a

The message is still there staring you in the face

and if you don't wanna talk revolution then don't appropriate it to sell streams

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

that's globalism, that's capitalism...
that's the system we're in and most people are fine with it
if there will ever be a revolution, we don't have to look at
the haves to spark it...

In the meantime, there's lots of music and entertainment to enjoy,
lot's of it won't be for you (or me), but pointing fingers (especially online) won't solve a thing.

http://islasoul.bandcamp.com

"Hey, it's just music"

Idolatry is a real thing

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

NWA didn't start a revolution
Pac didn't start a revolution
Bob Marley, Fela Kuti, Manu Chao, etc.
never sparked a revolution

what they did do was spark critical thought and produce thinkers
raised important issues to the public, but that's it

And really, because of Beyonce, some people will look deeper
into creole/black/...identities , check out what The Black Panthers did,
who knows...she's mentioning things in her music kids don't automatically have access to, or seek out...I don't know,
but she's still in the business of selling records.

a spoonful of sugar with some medicine

http://islasoul.bandcamp.com

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

Most of those artists were consistently on message over years, I don't recall any of them taking advantage of a specific moment/movement to sell the image of revolution as a consumer good

Maybe James "vote Nixon" Brown but...yeah

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me