"sample-based production: creatively dead?" Mon Mar-02-15 09:07 AM by Voletta Wallace
we all know it's been commercially dead for countless years.
but honestly i haven't heard anybody doing anything unique or new with samples (e.g. records) in the better part of a decade.
most of the people back in the 00's who were doing ill shit -- are sadly doing exactly the same shit as they were back then.
madlib, whos new techniques and wizardry was like nothing else in the mid-00's... has progressed in absolutely no way and is dropping music that sounds exactly the same as 2005.
alchemist slightly updated his shit in 09/10 with gangrene to be more madlib-esque in certain ways, but he still sounds the same.
people are sadly still making off-beat 8-bit slappers like it's 2008.
all the flips and programming i hear from unknown producers are on par with what was established in the mid-late 00's.
in fact in the early 10's alot of sample-based production actually regressed from what was happening in the 00's imo.
but no new or out of left field ideas that really "work".
i put this album on my mp3 player thinking it would have some cool tracks on it and this song came up on random and i pretty much turned on modern sample-based production entirely:
1. "i dunno tbh. shit like truffle butter is not good tho." In response to Reply # 0
I dunno if they think their audiences just wont know it, but slowing down the melodic elements of house music and just wholesale putting them over stock hihats and hand claps?
Nah son.
Not a flip, not a reimagining, just a cut and paste. Shit is wack.
For my money, dance music is leading the way for sampling excellence.
2. "i think they think their audiences wont know...the reason being" In response to Reply # 1
the target demo that chris brown and kid ink, etc are shooting for have never even heard of robin s or "show me love"...so to them its all new lol
>I dunno if they think their audiences just wont know it, but >slowing down the melodic elements of house music and just >wholesale putting them over stock hihats and hand claps? > >Nah son. > >Not a flip, not a reimagining, just a cut and paste. Shit is >wack. > >For my money, dance music is leading the way for sampling >excellence. > >Stuff like: > >Marquis Hawkes - Honey Kisses: http://youtu.be/pAlfushOKzU > >Or this. How many mainstream hiphop producers are even >capable of something like this?: > >Fracture - Against The Clock: http://youtu.be/wpNtTMaiZbY > >That said, Premier didnt do anything revolutionary per se on >PRhyme, but that shit sure did sound fantastic and even fresh >to some extent.
3. "RE: sample-based production: creatively dead?" In response to Reply # 0
So you don't think the clams casino, shlohmo era was/is innovative?
or araabmusik and his live flips?
or FLUME or TWRK or even what Green Lantern and Just Blaze are doing in "edm"
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
5. "I wouldn't say that at all" In response to Reply # 0
I think it's more of a case of stuff being done, but people not caring because it doesn't sound like what they think it should sound like (which is usually who their favorite producer is and what that producer does, especially on this site). And if you ask me, that's an extremely, pompous, shortsighted and entitled way of looking at things. For example, people say Primo's beats sound dated and stale, and that's basically because he's not doing what Flying Lotus does. Was Count Basie's music stale because he wasn't doing what Return to Forever was doing? Of course not. Having an opportunity to hear producers expand on their sounds without having them make outrageous turns is actually essential to culture, regardless of what fans may think of it. And there's more than one way to do it. It's a bigger issue than just naming names and whatnot, because the question itself speaks to the greater whole of fans and how they perceive things. I love happening upon something I've never heard before and taking it for a go so I can understand it better, but that sort of thing has been traded in for geeking out over everything that comes along and trying to force it's place amongst everything else with ah heavy hand ("___ is the greatest of the past ten years, prove me wrong").
__________________________________________ CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!! ------------------------------------ Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this
Allow me to add that if DJ Premier decided to switch over to a Flying Lotus style, the same critics who say he now sounds dated would then cry that he's a second-rate imitation of Flying Lotus. And you what? They would be correct.
Premier won't ever do FlyLo as well as FlyLo because he's NOT FlyLo and doesn't have FlyLo's mind. He can however, be the best in the world at being himself because he is Dj Premier and he has the mind of DJ Premier. And that's good enough for me.
To address the thread question, I think that sample-based music production, or any other type of music production for that matter, is dead if we feel that the only way to advance the craft is to ignore the past and those involved in it. After all, the hands of a clock, as long as they are moving forward, are always moving away from their past and towards their past at the same time.
9. "RE: theres an endless amount of loops and sounds untouched..." In response to Reply # 8
Think he is talking about specific innovation in actually sampling.. like what are you doing with the samples..
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
13. "lol..that was quite atrocious" In response to Reply # 0
but anybody that makes beats has a bunch of these turds in their collection.
anyway amazing things are being done with samples right now. but sometimes the samples are manipulated till they are barely recognizable or the style of music might not be to your taste.
ps what are YOU feeling these days? most of your posts seem to be about things you don't like. I'm curious what actually floats your boat.
14. "Theres plenty of ways..." In response to Reply # 0
to continue the evolution of sampling.
Lots of styles that hasnt really been touched or followed up on/thru even tho they proved amazing when done right!!!
Take the Pete Rock recipe for example, using small bits and pieces from different sources to create a mosaic that becomes something entirely new and fresh in itself -
Im guessin that, because this technique is quite time consumin and demands a great ear, both mix and note/chordwise, lots of beatmakers leave that alone.
A shame really, cause to me, that is at least ONE of the key elements in terms of taking sampling to another level.
Multisample layering, different pitches for each chop. Dualnote chords playin at diff pitches to create new chords and dynamics, without altering the vibe... Shit, people just needs to get CREATIVE!!!
16. "RE: Theres plenty of ways..." In response to Reply # 14
nah..
It's because no one can afford it...
Clearing samples cost money. A lot of it. So if you have a mainstream release you arent going to have 1 song with 4-5 samples in it. Not only is the upfront cost potentially high you wont retain ANY publishing which means you make no money long term.
All of that seems like a losing proposition.
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
19. "True, if u in the biz..." In response to Reply # 16
...that def. explains the lack of those prod. techniques!
The thousands of "amateur" beatmakers in the underground not depending on a paycheck, on the other hand, can still push the creative boundaries x infinite...
Cats that truly search for progression in sampling would find it there, even if it ceased to exist on a commercial level...
22. "RE: True, if u in the biz..." In response to Reply # 19
and they are...
have you not peeped soundcloud lately? there is all kindsa crazy sample manipulation poppin..
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
26. "RE: can u point us towards some stuff?" In response to Reply # 25
start with everything I mentioned above..
plus Ta-Ku, Mr Carmack Soulection crew... Shlohmo and the Wedidit crew and errr Clams... Flume.. Kaytranada.. Sango.. shit that Goldlink raps on..
Im sure there are a ton of people here who can add on..
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
Just wanted to clarify what you meant by Soundcloud - yeah, Ta-Ku, Kaytranada et all are very dope, although I'm not sure they're doing anything *new* with sampling techniques the music is fantastic
You don't think Kaytranada's Janet flip is interesting and new?
Double 0 DJ/Producer/Artist Producer in Kidz In The Hall ------------------------------------------- twitter: @godouble0 IG: @godouble0 www.thinklikearapper.com
And idk a lot of his flips (MNEK, Disclosure, AlunaGeorge etc...) definitely sound like "Kaytranda Remixes"...making them more up-tempo and throwing his "sound" on them. I wouldn't consider it anything "revolutionary" sampling wise, more just a very talented and funky producer throwing his stamp on a lot of different tracks.
And that's absolutely not a slight against him - he's the number 1 person I want to see spin right now. Matter of fact I emailed Huh What and Where to ask about where I could see a list of their roster's tour and they never got back to me
24. "that's what i've been trying to do lately" In response to Reply # 14
>Take the Pete Rock recipe for example, using small bits and >pieces from different sources to create a mosaic that becomes >something entirely new and fresh in itself - > >Im guessin that, because this technique is quite time consumin >and demands a great ear, both mix and note/chordwise, lots of >beatmakers leave that alone.
the "black messiah" beat sampled all 12 tracks from the album. shit took me a month to put together.
and before that, for the "i'm asian" album, it was an exercise of "what else can i use?...okay, what else can i use??" until it didn't groove anymore. some beats used like 20 different songs.
but you and double 0 are right...in the industry it's about $ample clearance$ and budget, and being an ameteur beatbaker who's not trying to make any money off this, i can afford to explore.
It's like my masterpiece and since i made it for myself it's sort of one of my favorite albums even though i made it myself.
I never promoted this album much at all because the day i released it MCA died. It got me really depressed. LIke the album sounds similar to that cat's music and i just got really depressed - like why did he have to die the day i release my album?
18. "RE: I have sample based album" In response to Reply # 15
I made the album in quadrophonic sound did every single thing i could do to make it creative. SO please take a listen and i would like to know if it is "dead" or not. This is my lifes work and masterpiece i even made instruments and a new stereo format for it.
21. "Okay, I listened..." In response to Reply # 18
to all nine tracks and here is my opinion based on what I heard. Since this is just my opinion, no one has to accept it as the gospel truth.
There was a good blend of samples, live instruments and effects throughout. Your use of effects was creative but not overdone. I never got the feeling that any of the arrangements were standing still as they do for many hip-hop based instrumentals.
Though I could sense movement in your arrangements and that your ideas were building up to something, there were times that I felt that they didn't do enough to firmly establish a primary motive or theme. I also felt that you could have benefited from more dynamic and thematic contrasts.
It also wouldn't hurt to have more lead voices in the instrumentation. When you are arranging instrumentals, something has to fill in for the "missing" vocals.
Do I feel that your "masterpiece" is innovative? Let me say this. There is very little being doing today from a purely musical standpoint that hasn't already been done by Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. Free yourself (if you haven't already) from being tasked with the burden of "changing the game" with something never done before as there is nothing new under the Sun.
Study the greats of the past but do your best to see that your music represents your personality to its fullest.
23. "RE: Okay, I listened..." In response to Reply # 21 Thu Mar-05-15 03:51 AM by Key
Yeah totally helps dude. Thanks.
Yeah it sort of all sounds similar and could use more fun or contrast. I don't think of innovation as like this huge thing you do. I just tried to copy Jimi Hendrix honestly and do my album in surround sound like Electric Ladyland. SO i don't think i really did anything new under the sun but maybe i through off the rotation of the earths axis a slight bit. I just go for baby steps because i think we are all still really young souls. ANd there is a lot to find out there.
I named one of the songs my equation for the theory of everything. THat might be better than the music innovation i am not sure.
But yeah thanks so much for listening i appreciate it. LIke it's a personal masterpiece to me. I just made the album I wanted to hear.
Oh and i know what you mean about replacing vocals with something else. Beautiful needed a melody and i just gave up. But most of the others sort of have a melody instead of rap or vocals. http://keymusic.bandcamp.com/album/apophenia
Listened to Apophenia...dope from beginning to end...avant garde and eclectic...similar to L'Orange or Tall Black Guy...keep up the good work and keep grindin'...
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