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Subject: "What do you consider the first Neo-Soul Album?" Previous topic | Next topic
Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Jul-28-14 01:56 PM

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"What do you consider the first Neo-Soul Album?"


  

          

I am thinking it's Zhane's first album. It seem like all the neo-soul aesthetics were there (though of course it wasn't labeled as such).

I could be wrong and convinced otherwise though. What do you think?




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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
D'angelo - Brown sugar
Jul 28th 2014
1
Meshell Ndegeocello - Plantation Lullabies
Jul 28th 2014
2
RE: Meshell Ndegeocello - Plantation Lullabies
Jul 28th 2014
72
i think the labeling is key.
Jul 28th 2014
3
Sons of Soul is a very good candidate.
Jul 28th 2014
18
      i meant House of Music, not Sons of Soul.
Jul 28th 2014
20
           just when I was about to cosign you on Sons of Soul
Jul 28th 2014
22
                it's a post-neo-soul album
Jul 28th 2014
24
                I was going to posit the Heavies'* first record, but this same issue
Jul 28th 2014
25
                Without a doubt.
Jul 28th 2014
30
                You guys keep articulating why Joi is the answer
Jul 28th 2014
34
                     I'll have to think about that.
Jul 28th 2014
39
                     Listening again now...Blueprint is there.
Jul 31st 2014
126
                          I remember Joi's album being a bit too... weird.
Jul 31st 2014
127
                               Oh it definitely is
Jul 31st 2014
129
                     i see that.
Jul 28th 2014
43
                There's an IMO important principal difference...
Jul 28th 2014
74
                     only to add to your point, i think,
Jul 29th 2014
82
                but that's what Neo Soul is.
Jul 28th 2014
26
                     I consider House of Music Retro Soul
Jul 28th 2014
35
                     Cosign. nm
Jul 28th 2014
37
                     which album has the DJ Quik appearance?
Jul 28th 2014
41
                          House of Music.
Jul 28th 2014
59
                     The hip-hop element can't be discounted.
Jul 28th 2014
36
                          but see: DJ Quik.
Jul 28th 2014
45
                               I typically don't think of Tony Toni Tone as neo-soul either
Jul 28th 2014
46
                                    sons of soul absolutely married hip-hop with
Jul 29th 2014
92
Jul 28th 2014
4
why post-hip-hop
Jul 28th 2014
23
      I don't mean post-hip-hop in the sense of 'after hip-hop'
Jul 28th 2014
63
           I agree with this idea
Jul 28th 2014
66
I can see where you're going with Zhane, though. But
Jul 28th 2014
5
It's funny you mention the whole dance thing
Jul 28th 2014
10
      I feel the same way.
Jul 28th 2014
19
      RE: I feel the same way.
Jul 28th 2014
61
           Was Take Care *that* big?
Jul 28th 2014
69
                RE: Was Take Care *that* big?
Jul 29th 2014
93
      saw her live in manchester on the 30th July
Jul 31st 2014
128
           Yeah that's a wack take...
Jan 26th 2022
184
Brown Sugar
Jul 28th 2014
6
Joi's "The Pendulum Vibe" has been given that title
Jul 28th 2014
7
ding!
Jul 28th 2014
8
Baduism
Jul 28th 2014
9
I kind of don't think of Brown Sugar as Neo-Soul either.
Jul 28th 2014
17
if you don't think BS is Neo Soul then what is Neo Soul IYO?
Jul 28th 2014
27
      Brown Sugar was too hood to be Neo Soul
Jul 28th 2014
33
      All the other usual suspects. Badu, Jill Scott, Benet, Dwele, Maxwell
Jul 28th 2014
44
RE: Baduism
Jul 28th 2014
28
I think Baduism is so clearly defined Neo-Soul that we have to know
Jul 28th 2014
48
      Baduizm was the first *fully-formed* neo-soul album, I'll agree
Jul 28th 2014
54
           RE: Baduizm was the first *fully-formed* neo-soul album, I'll agree
Jul 28th 2014
79
I feel like Baduizm is the answer here.
Jul 30th 2014
96
I agree with the general consensus
Jul 28th 2014
11
if you gonna start counting at Soul II Soul
Jul 28th 2014
12
I'm not "counting" at Soul II Soul
Jul 28th 2014
16
lol. you gon fall off that shaky limb, brah.
Jul 28th 2014
13
Yeah I was thinking that is not how I would define Neo-Soul at all
Jul 28th 2014
15
but Soul II Soul's 1989 records don't sound like Soul records.
Jul 28th 2014
21
      I am not convinced Neo-Soul is required to evoke 70s soul music
Jul 28th 2014
29
           isn't that what makes it 'neo' though?
Jul 28th 2014
31
                Yeah I agree with that. I am just saying it doesn't have to be 70s soul
Jul 28th 2014
38
                     ok.... I guess I can get with that.
Jul 28th 2014
40
                     i dunno any Neo Soul records evoking the 50s and mixing it w/HH.
Jul 28th 2014
51
                          Do you consider Stepchild neo-soul?
Jul 28th 2014
56
                          i dunno who they is.
Jul 28th 2014
57
                               Stepchild's shit is so hard to find now
Jul 28th 2014
60
                                    oh i hear why Stepchild fell off.
Jul 28th 2014
65
                          I think artist who are influenced by Sam Cooke, Otis Reading & Early
Jul 28th 2014
67
                               who?
Jul 28th 2014
68
Yes, it's a shaky limb but
Jul 28th 2014
55
i disagree about Soul II Soul
Jul 28th 2014
14
      I'm intrigued by this...
Jul 28th 2014
32
           Hip-Hop Soul = R&B sang over Hip-Hop tracks.
Jul 28th 2014
47
                But both tracks come from "neo-soul" albums
Jul 28th 2014
58
                     the version of 'Bag Lady' i'm talking about didn't appear on an album.
Jul 28th 2014
64
                          Okay, let's try Mary J. Blige's "My Life" = HHS
Jul 28th 2014
70
                               if 'Bag Lady' (Cheeba Sac Mix) ain't HHS then there is no HHS.
Jul 28th 2014
71
                                    Erykah Badu is considered a neo-soul artist
Jul 28th 2014
76
                                         so what?
Jul 28th 2014
77
Can we agree that Ghetto Heaven is the bridge
Jul 28th 2014
42
Hmmm.... that's interesting.
Jul 28th 2014
49
naw.
Jul 28th 2014
50
In my mind, Ghetto Heaven is a proto-Neo Soul song, but
Jul 28th 2014
52
      in my mind GH has nothing to do w/Neo Soul.
Jul 28th 2014
53
I was thinking Arrested Development
Jul 28th 2014
62
no love for Groove Theory?
Jul 28th 2014
73
I think Brown Sugar pre-dates it.
Jul 28th 2014
75
      I never thought of Groove Theory as neo-soul
Jul 28th 2014
78
           I have a question...
Jul 28th 2014
80
interesting question...
Jul 28th 2014
81
Yah...
Jul 29th 2014
83
RE: Yah...
Jul 29th 2014
84
Wait did you say Mary J could really sing?
Jul 29th 2014
86
      Yes. And Badu could not.
Jul 31st 2014
117
Brown Sugar was not labeled 'neo-soul' at the time of its release though
Jul 29th 2014
85
      regardless of WHEN it was called neo-soul...
Jul 30th 2014
94
           But it wasn't that either.
Jul 30th 2014
97
                the first album to be labeled neo-soul was Baduizm
Jul 30th 2014
98
                Something being illustrated by all of this
Jul 30th 2014
99
                     I never saw Lauryn Hill as part of neo-soul
Jul 30th 2014
102
                          She had Mary J and D' on the album
Jul 30th 2014
106
                Brown Sugar birthed Neo-Soul...
Jul 31st 2014
116
                     That's not what you said at first, though.
Jul 31st 2014
121
                     Baduizm was the first album labeled neo-soul when it dropped
Jul 31st 2014
125
Dionne Farris, anyone?
Jul 29th 2014
87
Too BRC soul
Jul 29th 2014
88
      ^^^
Jul 29th 2014
89
      In theory we would have been better with a broader BRC influence
Jul 29th 2014
90
      Good Point.
Jul 29th 2014
91
      what do dat stand fo?
Jul 30th 2014
100
           Black Rock Coal-ition
Jul 30th 2014
101
                I remember mailing out for my BRC membership
Jul 30th 2014
103
                     They messed up by trying to make it too much of an org
Jul 30th 2014
104
                          True.
Jul 30th 2014
105
                          That was my time. They got me and several others on WBAI
Jul 30th 2014
108
Maxwell Gets My Vote
Jul 30th 2014
95
Unofficial: sons of soul/ official: brown sugar
Jul 30th 2014
107
i just don't hear Neo-Soul in SoS.
Jul 30th 2014
109
      Slow Wine, Pillow and I Couldnt keep it to myself????
Jul 30th 2014
110
      nope.
Jul 30th 2014
112
           To me..neo was rhodes and a rim shot or tribe inspired drums
Jul 30th 2014
115
           it also requires a certain 'warmth' in the production.
Jul 31st 2014
119
           Wow, to me, "I couldn't keep it to myself" sounds more 70's than a lot o...
Aug 01st 2014
132
                'Lovin You' is very Neo Soul, IMO.
Aug 01st 2014
135
      I think it was obviously a precursor
Jul 30th 2014
111
           Fender Rhodes + 808 = Neo Soul?
Jul 30th 2014
113
                that was pretty much the formula, i thought.
Jul 31st 2014
118
                Don't think there's much 808's in neo-soul.
Aug 01st 2014
161
                     thanks, smart guy.
Aug 02nd 2014
164
depends on ones definition of so-called 'Neo-Soul' obviously, but for ME...
Jul 30th 2014
114
Dunno, but I'm fairly certain it came out of London
Jul 31st 2014
120
Agreed. Omar's Nothing Like This and Des'ree's Feel So High
Aug 01st 2014
133
So let's talk about location. It's either Philly or London right?
Jul 31st 2014
122
of those 2 - Philly.
Jul 31st 2014
123
Home and birthplace can be 2 totally different things.
Jul 31st 2014
124
anita baker
Jul 31st 2014
130
Stop the presses, Gum may have just 'dropped the mic'...
Aug 03rd 2014
168
      But then why not Phyllis Hyman?
Apr 27th 2020
172
erykah badu
Jul 31st 2014
131
Been hinting at it all post but I think the hip-hop link is overstated
Aug 01st 2014
134
^ this is how i see it.
Aug 01st 2014
136
If you remove the sampled drums
Aug 01st 2014
137
it still doesn't make their music NS or proto-NS.
Aug 01st 2014
159
      Sowhat has convinced me on SIIS.
Aug 01st 2014
160
           The Neo-Soul era officially began
Aug 02nd 2014
162
                i haven't said all of the group's music is HHS.
Aug 02nd 2014
163
                     Which brings me back
Aug 02nd 2014
165
                          The acapella version of Back To Life, playboy.
Aug 02nd 2014
166
                               Sorry to upset you...
Aug 02nd 2014
167
Incidentally to drive home my Joi point
Aug 01st 2014
138
      Amoeba Cleansing Syndrome was some BRC shit, though
Aug 01st 2014
139
           RE: Amoeba Cleansing Syndrome was some BRC shit, though
Aug 01st 2014
140
           We had bootleg cassettes of ACS in 96 n/m
Aug 01st 2014
142
           "last gasp" implies that there was a public reaction to it
Aug 01st 2014
143
                I don't think I care about the 'public' reaction as such
Aug 01st 2014
145
                the lack of public release can be seen as the nail in the coffin
Aug 01st 2014
147
                     right. nm
Aug 01st 2014
150
           if you was in the loop, you had the promo in summer of 97.
Aug 01st 2014
144
                as I said in reply #108, 90 - 94 was my BRC era
Aug 01st 2014
146
                     btw who were you playing with?
Aug 01st 2014
149
                          I do play bass but I wasn't playing with nobody back then lol
Aug 01st 2014
151
                          I auditoned as a guitarist for The Nubian Souljahs in 92
Aug 01st 2014
153
           Agreed
Aug 01st 2014
141
           And oddly enough, the neo-ish tracks were the least interesting
Aug 01st 2014
148
           Connecting posts
Aug 01st 2014
152
                I never really thought about it this way
Aug 01st 2014
154
                     The name Rachid sounds familiar but I can't place it...
Aug 01st 2014
155
                     RE: I never really thought about it this way
Aug 01st 2014
156
                          The old neo-soul mythos went so deep
Aug 01st 2014
157
                          wow!!!
Aug 01st 2014
158
RE: Been hinting at it all post but I think the hip-hop link is overstat...
Jan 26th 2022
185
when did the words "neo soul" first come outta kedar's mouth?
Aug 04th 2014
169
I just heard Billy Lawrence's Paradise (1997) for the first time recentl...
Apr 23rd 2020
170
Reality was so dope to me
Apr 25th 2020
171
Such a dope ass discussion.
Jan 07th 2022
173
Where do folks think soul and/or R&B stand today?
Jan 07th 2022
174
Damn this whole post made me miss the old OKP...
Jan 09th 2022
178
Yeah.
Jan 10th 2022
179
RE: Damn this whole post made me miss the old OKP...
Jan 11th 2022
180
i read thru the whole post this evening like a good book.
Jan 15th 2022
183
Omar "There's Nothing Like This"
Jan 07th 2022
175
Joi - "The Pendulum Vibe" June 28 1994
Jan 09th 2022
176
I would consider Native Tongues & Soul II Soul as precursors to the Neo-...
Jan 09th 2022
177
"They're doing Tribe shit" (c) Phife (when asked about neo-soul..
Jan 11th 2022
181
Omar?
Jan 13th 2022
182

c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
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Mon Jul-28-14 09:49 AM

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1. "D'angelo - Brown sugar"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Rhodes, man

  

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Nick Has a Problem...Seriously
Member since Dec 25th 2010
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Mon Jul-28-14 09:52 AM

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2. "Meshell Ndegeocello - Plantation Lullabies"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

****************************************
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Vhien
Member since Aug 22nd 2009
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Mon Jul-28-14 04:56 PM

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72. "RE: Meshell Ndegeocello - Plantation Lullabies"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>
I'd want to give it to Meshell Ndegeocello as well. I think one could even justify granting the label to Omar's "Music" record. That one had some strong Neo-soul elements, although the general course of UK music does complicate matters a bit.

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Jul-28-14 11:58 AM

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3. "i think the labeling is key."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jul-28-14 11:59 AM by SoWhat

  

          

so i vote for Brown Sugar b/c it was the first i remember being hit w/the label.

but w/o regard for labeling i'd say Tony Toni Tone's Sons of Soul was the 1st. or at least the 1st i heard that was consciously evoking the sound and general feeling of 70s R&B/Soul w/minimal Hip-Hop aesthetic, as opposed to New Jack Swing and Hip-Hop Soul each of which had a heavier H-H influence and aesthetic.

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Mon Jul-28-14 01:07 PM

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18. "Sons of Soul is a very good candidate. "
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/blackpeopleonlocalnews

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Jul-28-14 01:14 PM

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20. "i meant House of Music, not Sons of Soul."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Jul-28-14 01:18 PM

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22. "just when I was about to cosign you on Sons of Soul"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

and credit you for making me rethink on that album.

House of Music to me is something different because it's such a faithful, studious, religious recreation of various soul sounds, but the reason it just doesn't count as neo-soul for me is that a lot of times it seems to be pretending that hip-hop never existed.

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon Jul-28-14 01:19 PM

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24. "it's a post-neo-soul album"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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lonesome_d
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25. "I was going to posit the Heavies'* first record, but this same issue"
In response to Reply # 22


          

>a lot of times it seems to be pretending that
>hip-hop never existed.

could also be brought with that. (Though Heavy Rhyme Experience countered, that, it's even less a neo-soul record, though I'm sure not w.o influence)


*I'm no n eo-soul expert but of course the BNH part of that gang of British stuff you mention - in some ways not just the bigger names (James Taylor, Galliano, Incognito) those old Acid Jazz 'totally wired' and related samplers can be seen as extremely prescient with regard to this conversation.

-------
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album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
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avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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30. "Without a doubt."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>*I'm no n eo-soul expert but of course the BNH part of that
>gang of British stuff you mention - in some ways not just the
>bigger names (James Taylor, Galliano, Incognito) those old
>Acid Jazz 'totally wired' and related samplers can be seen as
>extremely prescient with regard to this conversation.

I can clearly remember that when neo-soul started to emerge in the US, commentators would actually describe these artists as "trying to sound British." That was a big deal with the group Vertical Hold, who had to constantly assure everyone that they were in fact Americans. (I recall Sandra St. Victor having a similar issue--Family Stand is another important precedent, btw)

But yeah, it's not accidental that one of the Roots early releases was on Talkin' Loud.

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imcvspl
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Mon Jul-28-14 01:34 PM

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34. "You guys keep articulating why Joi is the answer"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Her first album is a direct reaction to the british movement.
She incorporates hip-hop elements
She incorporates an older soul perspective
Inspired Kedar and Badu which leads to Baduism where the term is coined.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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39. "I'll have to think about that."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

And probably listen to the album again... for some reason, I was never a HUGE fan of that record. Probably listened to it from beginning to end less than 5 times in the past two decades.


(who am I kidding? I know exactly how many times I've listened to it ... 3)

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
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126. "Listening again now...Blueprint is there."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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127. "I remember Joi's album being a bit too... weird."
In response to Reply # 126


  

          

I think there's a fundamental conservatism at the heart of neo-soul that makes it hard for me to think of anything that gets too experimental as falling under the umbrella.

Anyway, I will listen to the Pendulum Vibe this weekend. Oddly enough, it's been sitting on my floor for the past 2 months.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
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Thu Jul-31-14 04:57 PM

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129. "Oh it definitely is"
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

It's a case not of the blueprint being the sketches of what could be fully flushed out, but rather laying down the whole spectrum which folk would later pull from. All the way down to the spoken word poetry and self righteousness. You can even hear "Rimshot"'s rimshot on it. It's all in there. Actually one thing it's lacking is rhodes, it may be in there but it's not prominent.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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Mon Jul-28-14 01:46 PM

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43. "i see that."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Mon Jul-28-14 06:40 PM

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74. "There's an IMO important principal difference..."
In response to Reply # 25


          

Most of the prominent US Neo-soulers seemed to be going more for the "genius" Stevie Wonder-solo guy (or girl) presentation regardless of whether it really was like that. I know there were duos and stuff but how many neo-soul *bands* were there that people associate as torchbearers of the scene?

Meanwhile, the Acid Jazz bands seemsd to go out of their way to present themselves as "bands" even when a single songwriter or producer/arranger/whatever was dominant. Even fucking Jamiroquai which might have been slightly later but still, that's the type of act many to this day believe was a guy but every interview pointed out it was a band. Omar is an exception from that era but I'm trying to think of someone else and coming up short...

Basically, it's as if they were trying to bring back two different aspects of "real"/70's soul/R&B updates...

  

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denny
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82. "only to add to your point, i think,"
In response to Reply # 74


          

but I've read that the first three Jamiroquois albums were mostly the work of the bass player. He wrote and arranged the majority of the music apparently.

  

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SoWhat
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26. "but that's what Neo Soul is."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>House of Music to me is something different because it's such
>a faithful, studious, religious recreation of various soul
>sounds, but the reason it just doesn't count as neo-soul for
>me is that a lot of times it seems to be pretending that
>hip-hop never existed.

^ Neo-Soul is all of those things. except maybe it has a bit more HH influence, but generally HoM is Neo by definition.

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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35. "I consider House of Music Retro Soul"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

I think it too purposefully tried to sound like old soul music then Neo-Soul which is in my mind a reaction to hip-hop and then current music trends.

Neo Soul is Post-Hip-Hop but doesn't mean there is no hip-hop influence.

Saadiq is a quintessential Neo-Soul artist but I think he veers off the track of moving music forward with his retro soul projects like House of Music and The Way I See It.


**********
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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37. "Cosign. nm"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

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SoWhat
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41. "which album has the DJ Quik appearance?"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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59. "House of Music."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

"Let's Get Down" was probably the only track (or maybe one of two tracks) that sort of addressed the existence of hip-hop, and it was also the least soul-referencing in general (it's actually more like an homage to "Smells Like Teen Spirit")

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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36. "The hip-hop element can't be discounted."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

I tend to prefer saying "post-hip-hop" because it's not that I think that neo-soul needs to have hip-hop beats or cursing in the lyrics, but it has to have a certain sensibility that tells you that the artist is a hip-hop kid. House of Music ignores that and just straight time-travels back to 1974 and avoids addressing hip-hop altogether.

That's why I sometimes don't even like to think of Maxwell as a neo-soul artist as such because there was something about him (in the early days anyway) that almost suggested he didn't even like hip-hop that much. And his lineage could be traced straight back to Sade. Max was closer to the UK soul/jazz dance strain than many of his American peers... in fact, he frequently cited SIIS (and yes, TTT!) as his forebearers.

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SoWhat
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45. "but see: DJ Quik."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

i never thought of SoS as a Neo-Soul album (and still don't) b/c most of the songs lack that studied attempt to re-create the 70s Soul vibe. it's a str8 ahead New Jack Swing album, IMO. or it's closer to NJS than it is to N-S.

i now disagree w/what i wrote earlier - i don't think any of TTT's material is early N-S.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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46. "I typically don't think of Tony Toni Tone as neo-soul either"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

They're not hip-hop kids recreating the past... they're just cats who literally came from a previous era, despite the fact that they started playing really young.

Still... you had me rethinking Sons of Soul just now. I don't think it *sounds* like what we would come to identify with neo-soul, but conceptually I think it took a really bold leap to try to reconcile the two eras.

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shockzilla
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92. "sons of soul absolutely married hip-hop with"
In response to Reply # 46


          

that 70s funk and soul aesthetic, certainly more so than house of music.

and, quality-wise, it's probably as least as good as any of its successors.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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4. ""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Definitely Brown Sugar.

But if we're talking about the general concept, trying to present elements of classic soul sounds in a modern, post-hip-hop context, there were a lot of precedents, especially in the UK.

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imcvspl
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23. "why post-hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

or is that meaning in a reaction to hip-hop?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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63. "I don't mean post-hip-hop in the sense of 'after hip-hop'"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

but more in the sense of "after the existence of hip-hop and living in a world where you must address its impact, whether positively or negatively"

So yeah... reaction, in a sense. Though I don't like "reaction" because that sounds confrontational and I don't think D and Badu were "confronting" hip-hop as such. They were kids who had hip-hop in their veins who just happened to decide to take a crack at soul. So their approach to soul couldn't help but be informed in some way by hip-hop ethos and attitude even if they weren't singing over "beats."

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DigiSoul
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66. "I agree with this idea"
In response to Reply # 63


          

that D'Angelo and Erykah Badu were addressing the impact that hip-hop had on black music and culture. Hip-hop and R&B were now reconciled and no longer the enemies that they were in the early to mid-eighties.

Some may consider it a far-fetched idea but still think that new-jack swing, though it has been marketed as a standalone genre, is an earlier form of neo-soul. Teddy Riley and co. merely absorbed the growing influence and sound of hip-hop up until that point and crafted an R&B style from it. The seminal artists of neo-soul crafted an R&B style inspired by the growing influence and sound of one of hip-hop's most enduring acts, A Tribe Called Quest. Both genres grew out of sounds originating from hip-hop that was prevalent in their time.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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5. "I can see where you're going with Zhane, though. But"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jul-28-14 12:18 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

the reason I can't go there with you is because the production on Zhane's album had a certain gloss to it that sort of associated it more with the "dance music" of the era (similar to Ce Ce Peniston and other acts like that).

If we're gonna count stuff that had "dancey" beats, there's a lot of stuff from that period that could qualify.... by the time Neo-Soul really became a thing, that whole "dance" vibe had been shrugged off. (indeed part of the eventual downfall of neo-soul had to do with the fact that so much of it was *not* danceable).

EDIT: I really like this post. I like thinking about neo-soul.

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imcvspl
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10. "It's funny you mention the whole dance thing"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>(indeed part of the eventual downfall
>of neo-soul had to do with the fact that so much of it was
>*not* danceable).

One of my biggest critiques of FKA Twigs (beyond the fact she prolly can't sing a lick) is that she doesn't have a danceable tune. IMHO if she did a dance joint with a well coreographed video she'd be the thing all the kids were talking about. Modern day aaliyah steeze.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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19. "I feel the same way."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>One of my biggest critiques of FKA Twigs (beyond the fact she
>prolly can't sing a lick) is that she doesn't have a danceable
>tune. IMHO if she did a dance joint with a well coreographed
>video she'd be the thing all the kids were talking about.
>Modern day aaliyah steeze.

Of course, I feel that way about most of these modern "soul" types like Drake, The Weeknd, Majid Jordan, James Fauntleroy, Johnny Rain, Frank Ocean etc. I really appreciate what they are bringing to the table but I just can't understand what they have against.... well, *funk.* I can only go so far with the detached, ambient thing.

Funny thing is that Twigs is by all accounts an amazing dancer. In fact, wasn't her introduction to the scene was one of the dancers for... Jessie J, I think?

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double 0
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61. "RE: I feel the same way."
In response to Reply # 19


          

Funny enough...

Drakes biggest pop records are indie dance records..

- We're Going Home
- Take Care

Double 0
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Producer in Kidz In The Hall
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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69. "Was Take Care *that* big?"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

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double 0
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93. "RE: Was Take Care *that* big?"
In response to Reply # 69


          

Was a top 10 Hot 100 song.. think it topped out at 7.. Hold On topped out at 4..

Best I ever Had is his best chart performance I think though...

But his faster tempo records definitely chart better than the slow brooding stuff

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Reuben
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128. "saw her live in manchester on the 30th July"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

she can really sing

_______________________________________
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it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

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ToeJam
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184. "Yeah that's a wack take..."
In response to Reply # 128


          

Who cares what YOU want from an artist, especially if that's not even their steez. Frank Ocean chasing a "funk" sound wouldn't be Frank Ocean.

  

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SP1200
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6. "Brown Sugar"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Zhane still had new jack residue on their sound, I consider neo soul a
breaking away from the new jack sound.

Next was Lewis Taylor's self titled album out of the UK the following
year then Erykah and Adriana Evans after that.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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imcvspl
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7. "Joi's "The Pendulum Vibe" has been given that title"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Zhane's album doesn't quite meander enough to qualify... LOL!!

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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8. "ding!"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>Zhane's album doesn't quite meander enough to qualify...

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John Forte
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9. "Baduism"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I don't really consider Brown Sugar a neo-soil album.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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17. "I kind of don't think of Brown Sugar as Neo-Soul either. "
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

But I don't really have a good way to articulate why.

Voodoo definitely was. But then, Brown Sugar and Voodoo are so different.

**********
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SoWhat
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27. "if you don't think BS is Neo Soul then what is Neo Soul IYO?"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

fuck you.

  

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John Forte
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33. "Brown Sugar was too hood to be Neo Soul"
In response to Reply # 27


          

Not that neo-soul can't be hood, but it needs at least a LITTLE bit of boho.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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44. "All the other usual suspects. Badu, Jill Scott, Benet, Dwele, Maxwell"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

And Forte kind of hit it on the head for me as to why, D'angelo to me was a grimey corn row'd richmond nigga who also happened to be a soul singer.

Just didn't seem to hood put in the same box as Maxwell.

I don't know. Brown Sugar was just such a different hard to categorize big record in my own mind that I don't lump it with any other records.


**********
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spidey
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28. "RE: Baduism"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

...for me, this is the winner...GREATNESS...

Integrity is the Cornerstone of Artistry...

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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48. "I think Baduism is so clearly defined Neo-Soul that we have to know"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

that there has to be works that predates and informs it.

**********
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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54. "Baduizm was the first *fully-formed* neo-soul album, I'll agree"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

like it was the first album to come out and actually be called "neo-soul." When Brown Sugar dropped, people were struggling to figure out how to categorize it.

By the time Erykah dropped, Kedar had already got his brand together and worked out how he was going to market it. Baduizm also standardized the sound of neo-soul, right from the very first track which defined what the drums were supposed to sound like ("Rimshot.")

Between Brown Sugar and Baduizm there was a brief "anything goes" period where people were trying all kinds of diverse ideas and then Erykah's album came out and said "THIS is what neo-soul IS."

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spidey
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79. "RE: Baduizm was the first *fully-formed* neo-soul album, I'll agree"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

Great points and well said...gotta dust that joint off and give it some spins...Peace!

Integrity is the Cornerstone of Artistry...

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
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96. "I feel like Baduizm is the answer here."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

I want Brown Sugar or Zhane or some obscure chit to be the answer but, sometimes the mythical answer s the answer, and Baduizm is the one that established what the drums should sound like, what the bass should sound like, what the rhodes should sound like. everything else, from jill, to musiq to even D'angelo is after the aesthetic fact in my opinion.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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DigiSoul
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11. "I agree with the general consensus"
In response to Reply # 0


          

that neo-soul was likely born with "Brown Sugar" and named with "Baduizm" though the other suggestions are valid (right and wrong are subjective). I think the topic being raised here by the OP is the gestation period for neo-soul.

With that being said, I would like to suggest Soul II Soul's "Keep on Movin'" as a notable precursor to the neo soul period. Soulful melodies and harmonies combined with a hip-hop attitude towards drumming and sampling are what I consider hallmarks of the neo soul sound. I can't think of anything (enlighten me if necessary) on a popular level that was released during that time (1989) other than "Keep on Movin'" that fully embraced the smooth, soulful, jazzy and afro-centric musical sound with a hip-hop vibe that would later on be recognized as neo-soul.

The grooves on "Keep on Movin'" may not have the relaxed quantization of the post-D'Angelo period and the oft-used Rhodes sound isn't prominent but Caron Wheeler's image as a modern afro-centric female vocalist predates Erykah Badu by almost a decade.

I could go out on a limb an suggest that Guy's debut was an early neo-soul recording as they also combined R&B and hip-hop in their production. Also, remove the vocals to Kwame's "The Rhythm" and you'd have a credible neo-soul track, Rhodes and all, even by modern standards. After Soul II Soul, I think the arrival of A Tribe Called Quest (Bonita Applebum) accelerated the move to what we hear on "Hey DJ", "Brown Sugar" and "Baduizm" among others.

I could get really adventurous and declare that the original neo-soul album was "Diamond Life"...LOL! However, Sade's popularity predates the national popularity of hip-hop.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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12. "if you gonna start counting at Soul II Soul"
In response to Reply # 11
Mon Jul-28-14 01:00 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

why not just take it back to Loose Ends' Zagora

(which I do think is a very important precedent, along with Soul II Soul... but by and large I would argue that what was happening in the UK was really a different scene--though neo-soul was in a way an attempt to Americanize UK soul)

EDIT: You made an excellent point about the "cultural" aspects of Soul II Soul being a major MAJOR influence, though.

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DigiSoul
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16. "I'm not "counting" at Soul II Soul"
In response to Reply # 12


          

and I almost wanted to bring Loose Ends into the discussion. Thanks for doing it for me. I agree with the idea that the UK may have been ahead of the US in regards to embracing the new sound of soul music. The point I was just trying to make was that it's difficult trying to pinpoint events in the gestation period of a musical style. Since nothing that we have now is ever completely new, how far do we go back with this discussion before we are back in the era of Marvin and Stevie? You did see me mention "Diamond Life" right?

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
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13. "lol. you gon fall off that shaky limb, brah."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          


>I could go out on a limb an suggest that Guy's debut was an
>early neo-soul recording as they also combined R&B and hip-hop
>in their production.

that is one of the benchmarks of a distinctly different genre.

------------------------------------------
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Buddy_Gilapagos
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15. "Yeah I was thinking that is not how I would define Neo-Soul at all"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

AFKAP has a much better definition going describing it as " classic soul sounds in a modern, post-hip-hop context".

New Jack Swing is how I would define combining hip-hop and R&B.

Thing is, I kind of agree with the conclusion that Soul II Soul is a candidate for early Neo-Soul.


**********
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SoWhat
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21. "but Soul II Soul's 1989 records don't sound like Soul records."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

'Keep On Movin' and 'Back To Life' and 'Feel Free' and 'Fairplay' don't sound like they could've been made in the 70s. they don't evoke any of the trappings of 70s Soul like Neo Soul records do.

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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29. "I am not convinced Neo-Soul is required to evoke 70s soul music"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

I am thinking the two main characteristics is that Neo-Soul was NOT contemporary hip-hop infused R&B (90s &00s) and it was backwards looking, retro.

That backwards looking retro sound could be classic sounds other than 70s soul.

I am thinking in particular that one root of the neo-soul movement is acid jazz and groups like the Brand New Heavies.

I haven't heard Soul II Soul's first album in a minute. Let me go back and give it a spin.


**********
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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31. "isn't that what makes it 'neo' though?"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

The fact that it was consciously (some would say self-consciously) evoking a specific bygone era of soul music?

Before Kedar came and branded it "neo-soul," critics were throwing out labels like "soul revival," "neo-classical soul" "new classic soul" and "nu soul" (which is the title that stuck in the UK)... all of them strongly suggest the point that it is a very deliberate throwback to the past.

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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38. "Yeah I agree with that. I am just saying it doesn't have to be 70s soul"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

it could be other eras and other Genres (Jazz).

I also make the distinction between Neo Soul and Retro Soul like Saadiq's The Way I see it and House of Music, where an artist too deliberately tries to create a sound of a bygone era with adding anything new to earn the "Neo" title.


**********
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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40. "ok.... I guess I can get with that."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

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SoWhat
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51. "i dunno any Neo Soul records evoking the 50s and mixing it w/HH."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

the only record that might qualify w/a mix of 60s and HH is Outkast's 'Hey Ya' and that is NOT a Neo Soul record. so i dunno what you mean.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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56. "Do you consider Stepchild neo-soul?"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

Because they were drawing more from 1960s vocal group traditions.

SOLO was pulling from the late 1950s and 60s too.


(for the record, I don't consider either act to be neo-soul but they were grouped in there for a hot minute)

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SoWhat
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57. "i dunno who they is."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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60. "Stepchild's shit is so hard to find now"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

I swear I'm the only person who actually bought their CD though they had videos on BET all the time (on Video Vibrations, of course... not Video Soul)

This isn't really representative but it's one of the only things I can find on the Tube:

http://youtu.be/GEpLpynybec

And then SOLO... I'm sure you remember them:

http://youtu.be/ugMOl-cKg9g

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SoWhat
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65. "oh i hear why Stepchild fell off."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

no, i wouldn't count Stepchild as Neo-Soul. and not Solo either. Solo rose up in the wake of Boyz II Men and that other Neo-Doo Wop stuff that came out around then. it's not Neo Soul, IMO.

fuck you.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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67. "I think artist who are influenced by Sam Cooke, Otis Reading & Early"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

Marvin Gaye would be considered neo-soul influencers.


**********
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SoWhat
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68. "who?"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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55. "Yes, it's a shaky limb but"
In response to Reply # 13


          

new-jack swing and neo-soul can be viewed as two sides of the same coin. Both genres are characterized as R&B/soul with a hip-hop influence. I think neo-soul had elements in it that appealed more to the artsy, college crowd while new jack swing was tailored to appeal to a more general (black) audience.

  

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SoWhat
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14. "i disagree about Soul II Soul"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

largely b/c the music doesn't evoke the 70s Soul era enough to qualify. i put that Club Classics record firmly in the Hip-Hop Soul subgenre for the reasons you mentioned.

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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32. "I'm intrigued by this..."
In response to Reply # 14


          

as I think that there is a lot in "Keep on Movin'" that reminds me of the '70s. Does it sound like it was recorded in the '70's? No, but to me it does "sound" like a '70s record in regards to the melodies, harmonies and arrangements.

Look at Jill Scott's debut which may arguably be considered the peak of neo-soul. Other than that Moe Koffman sample used, I don't think that album sounds like the '70s. However, it does a very respectable job of capturing the spirit and vibe of what was happening in the '70s while re-imaging those ideas for a new generation.

You say you consider "Keep on Movin'" to be more related to hip-hop soul and not ne-soul. I consider neo and hip-hop soul to be the same thing. I'm interested in knowing your reasons for drawing a distinction between the two.

  

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SoWhat
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47. "Hip-Hop Soul = R&B sang over Hip-Hop tracks."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

Erykah Badu's 'Otherside of the Game' is Neo-Soul. 'Bag Lady' is HHS.

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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58. "But both tracks come from "neo-soul" albums"
In response to Reply # 47


          

I don't know of anyone who has marketed those songs under anything other than neo-soul umbrella.

"Other Side of the Game" may not have heavy drums but the message and attitude of it is very hip-hop. Would you agree?

  

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SoWhat
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64. "the version of 'Bag Lady' i'm talking about didn't appear on an album."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

it was only released on the single. and it's a great example of what we're discussing:

Cheeba Sac Mix is HHS - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqN0jsSeqPo

Album Version is Neo Soul - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4mdQtw5wTU

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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70. "Okay, let's try Mary J. Blige's "My Life" = HHS"
In response to Reply # 64


          

or Blackstreet's "No Diggity" = hip-hop soul. In fact, Mary J. Blige has been referred to as the "queen of hip-hop soul." I've heard the remix to "Bag Lady" before and although the drums are heavier than the album version, I still consider it a neo-soul song and labeling it as hip-hop soul brings up an association (to me) with Mary J. Blige. And while both artists draw from similar sources of inspiration, I don't think that Erykah Badu is marketed to the same audience as Mary J. Blige. Are they? Correct me if necessary 'cause I don't know.

I guess the point that I'm making is that Erykah Badu's music has always had a hip-hop vibe to it. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's not... but it has always been there.

  

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SoWhat
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71. "if 'Bag Lady' (Cheeba Sac Mix) ain't HHS then there is no HHS."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

>or Blackstreet's "No Diggity" = hip-hop soul. In fact, Mary
>J. Blige has been referred to as the "queen of hip-hop soul."
>I've heard the remix to "Bag Lady" before and although the
>drums are heavier than the album version, I still consider it
>a neo-soul song and labeling it as hip-hop soul brings up an
>association (to me) with Mary J. Blige.

MJB may be called the 'queen of HHS' but that doesn't mean she's the only woman who's ever released a HHS record. and i don't agree that she's the queen of the subgenre - i give that title to Mariah Carey, who's released more HHS records and has made more impact in that realm than MJB. but i digress, 'Bag Lady' is an R&B song over a Hip-Hop beat. it's literally Erykah singing over the instrumental version of Dr. Dre's 'Xxplosive'.

Xxplosive instrumental - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0f4MV2VT5g
Bag Lady Cheeba Sac - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqN0jsSeqPo

And while both artists
>draw from similar sources of inspiration, I don't think that
>Erykah Badu is marketed to the same audience as Mary J. Blige.

she is.

>I guess the point that I'm making is that Erykah Badu's music
>has always had a hip-hop vibe to it. Sometimes it's subtle
>and sometimes it's not... but it has always been there.

yeah. and that says what as related to the current topic?

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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76. "Erykah Badu is considered a neo-soul artist"
In response to Reply # 71


          

for marketing purposes. This is the widely accepted classification for her music. It's also widely accepted that neo-soul borrowed from hip-hop music in regards to production, arranging, performance and overall vibe. Some of her songs may contain more prominent hip-hop elements than others but I believe many agree that all of Erykah Badu's releases (Bag Lady remix and all) fall under the category of neo-soul.

How does this relate to our discussion? Please see my first reply to your comments. It appears that you have Soul II Soul placed in the hip-hop soul category based on the criteria that they utilized sampled rhythms that were at times also used in hip-hop recordings. While they did use sampled rhythms (layered with other percussion), the rest of their musical arrangements were highly sophisticated and were more than them just singing over beats.

If this is how you classify hip hop soul, that's fine. We can agree to disagree in that area.

Peace.

  

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SoWhat
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77. "so what?"
In response to Reply # 76
Mon Jul-28-14 07:44 PM by SoWhat

  

          

i don't care if "ppl" say Erykah is a Polka artist - the Cheeba Sac mix of 'Bag Lady' is HHS and the album version is N-S. b/c despite where or how or to whom the songs were marketed, they sound like HHS and N-S, respectively.

as for SIIS - i don't care what genre "ppl" say they are - nothing they made was Neo-Soul or even proto-Neo Soul. i think 'Back To Life' is the original Hip-Hop Soul track. 'Keep On Movin' may or may not be - but what it's not is Neo Soul. of any type.

fuck you.

  

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John Forte
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42. "Can we agree that Ghetto Heaven is the bridge "
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jul-28-14 01:54 PM by John Forte

          

between Neo Soul and New Jack Swing?


Actually the same could be said about Soul II Soul.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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49. "Hmmm.... that's interesting."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

I like the taste of that thought.

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SoWhat
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50. "naw."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

there isn't one.

fuck you.

  

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John Forte
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52. "In my mind, Ghetto Heaven is a proto-Neo Soul song, but"
In response to Reply # 50
Mon Jul-28-14 01:59 PM by John Forte

          

when I listen to it, it's New Jack swingy to a fault. It's never as good a song as I remember it being.

  

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SoWhat
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53. "in my mind GH has nothing to do w/Neo Soul."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

fuck you.

  

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bentagain
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62. "I was thinking Arrested Development"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

  

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melmag
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73. "no love for Groove Theory?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


or was it merely R&B sung over hipbop beats?

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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75. "I think Brown Sugar pre-dates it. "
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

Blurry lines between this being hip-hop soul and neo-soul.

**********
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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78. "I never thought of Groove Theory as neo-soul"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

Of course I understand why they were perceived this way--because Amel's vocal style had that jazzy thing going on that was associated with the emerging neo-sound. But Bryce's production was straight hip-hop, for the most part.

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DigiSoul
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80. "I have a question..."
In response to Reply # 78


          

Where do you draw your line between what you consider more hip-hop and what you consider more r&b/soul? This question is in regards to the r&b/soul music of let's say, the mid-'90s or it could be anytime after hip-hop began to dominate black music.

I had a similar convo with another poster and now I'm interested in knowing what your ideas are on this matter.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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81. "interesting question..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

obviously Brown Sugar was the first to get the "label" of neo-soul...

but if you want to look beyond the label.... you could go a couple ways...

either look at what were the sonic and musical pre-cursors to Brown Sugar...

or... look generally at the idea of a contemporary album that utilized a vibe or a style that harkened back to a particular sound in previous Soul or R&B...

I'd have to think about it...

  

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denny
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83. "Yah..."
In response to Reply # 81


          

I'm having trouble with the differentiation between 'neo-soul' and 'hip hop soul' though I think it's interesting/useful to think about. And back when it was happening....I gotta say that I KNEW the difference without being able to explain it.

There's a part of me that thinks there's a huge elephant in the room....the 'neo-soul' contingent didn't have real skills. Mary Blige and Blackstreet could really sing and were still rooted in traditional gospel roots. N'dea Davenport and Badu? Not so much. Though D'angelo seems to have stridled that line a bit more which makes the distinction more complicated.

  

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Deacon Blues
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84. "RE: Yah..."
In response to Reply # 83
Tue Jul-29-14 04:36 AM by Deacon Blues

  

          

>I'm having trouble with the differentiation between
>'neo-soul' and 'hip hop soul' though I think it's
>interesting/useful to think about. And back when it was
>happening....I gotta say that I KNEW the difference without
>being able to explain it.
>
>There's a part of me that thinks there's a huge elephant in
>the room....the 'neo-soul' contingent didn't have real skills.
> Mary Blige and Blackstreet could really sing and were still
>rooted in traditional gospel roots. N'dea Davenport and Badu?
> Not so much. Though D'angelo seems to have stridled that
>line a bit more which makes the distinction more complicated.
>

Yes me too sometimes I think that the difference really is only marketing ( neo soul- boho earthy, hip hop soul - urban), both are made by artist who grew up on hip hop and therefore produce music from that mindset but heavily borrow from traditional soul/r&b, maybe it's just the artist that influenced them. neo tended to be more influenced by Stevie, Donny, jazz, Prince, uk soul, where hip hop soul was more influenced by Michael, Charlie Wilson, Isley brothers, jam& lewis,, but of course that gets complicated.

dude

  

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imcvspl
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86. "Wait did you say Mary J could really sing?"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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High Society
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117. "Yes. And Badu could not."
In response to Reply # 86


          

--------------
soundshape.tumblr.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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85. "Brown Sugar was not labeled 'neo-soul' at the time of its release though"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

>obviously Brown Sugar was the first to get the "label" of
>neo-soul...
>

It got the label retroactively... but when it was released, that label was not out there yet.

_____________________

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Warren Coolidge
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94. "regardless of WHEN it was called neo-soul..."
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

if it was the first album to be called that.... then it was the first Neo-Soul album..

again if we're speaking about the "label" neo soul....

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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97. "But it wasn't that either."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

And you're contradicting yourself too.

Just take the correction and move on.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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98. "the first album to be labeled neo-soul was Baduizm"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

the second was Long Time, No See by Chico Debarge

However, before the term was really solidified as a new genre, I do remember it being used loosely in the press to describe Maxwell, Meshell, Ambersunshower and.... someone else. I think it was in Billboard or something....

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imcvspl
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99. "Something being illustrated by all of this"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

Is how we may like to define neo-soul may be off.

I'm thinking specifically that the hip-hop aspect is suspect. It may be an influencer but it doesn't have to be a sonic point of reference. See Maxwell as an example. Urban Hang Suite is definitely a neo-soul album but it has no trace of hip-hop directly in it.

But then again where does Lauryn Hill fit into the picture?


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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102. "I never saw Lauryn Hill as part of neo-soul"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

though the general consensus seemed to.

I always felt her solo stuff was a direct offshoot of the Refugees sound, which was really its own thing.

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imcvspl
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106. "She had Mary J and D' on the album"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

one foot in one foot out LOL!!

But whether she actually fits depends on how you define her.

Going back to my point on hip-hop, depending on how it's considered a part of neo-soul only one of his albums can actually fit under the tag.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Warren Coolidge
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116. "Brown Sugar birthed Neo-Soul..."
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

lol..

it's 2014 and you trying to argue this??? lolol.. Nigga a hundred people said Brown Sugar in this post before I did...as soon as I come in...here yo ass come...smh...

If both Brown Sugar and Baduizm are Neo-Soul Albums...and Brown sugar came out 2 years before Baduizm..... then that would make Brown Sugar the first Neo-Soul album..

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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121. "That's not what you said at first, though."
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

>lol..
>
>it's 2014 and you trying to argue this??? lolol.. Nigga a
>hundred people said Brown Sugar in this post before I did...as
>soon as I come in...here yo ass come...smh...
>
>If both Brown Sugar and Baduizm are Neo-Soul Albums...and
>Brown sugar came out 2 years before Baduizm..... then that
>would make Brown Sugar the first Neo-Soul album..


What you said was that "Brown Sugar was the first album to get the label neo-soul."

It wasn't.

The "neo-soul" tag was applied to Brown Sugar *retroactively*... when Brown Sugar came out, they really didn't have anything to call it.

It's similar to the way that when Sweet Sweetback's Baadassss Song! came out, it was not a Blaxploitation film. It was something new. But its success prompted Hollywood to make more movies that were similar to Sweetback, which they then described as "Blaxploitation" flicks.

retroactively, people think of Sweetback as part of the Blaxploitation cycle, which is okay in a loose sense. But if you were to say "Sweetback was the first movie to get the label Blaxploitation," you would be making a statement that is 100% categorically false. The first film to get the Blaxplitation label was Shaft. It's an objective fact, not one of opinion.

I have no problem with you saying Brown Sugar was the first neo-soul album. many others have said the same, myself included:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2894004&mesg_id=2894004&page=#2894060

But you had to get fancy and try to make it about which album was first labeled as such, and you made a false statement. I corrected you. Take the correction and drive on.


and LOL at you saying that I came here because of you... obviously you can see I probably have more replies in this post that anybody, so this isn't like the way you actually respond to posts you otherwise would not have only because *I* am in there.

_____________________

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imcvspl
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125. "Baduizm was the first album labeled neo-soul when it dropped"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

It was being called a movement specifically by Kedar in order to push it and his artists further. D', Maxwell & Joi's debut albums were all given the label after this. Joi's album was the first one of those to be released.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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kevb
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87. "Dionne Farris, anyone?"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jul-29-14 07:07 AM by kevb

          

Wild See, Wild Flower? Y'all must've forgot!

Kev

  

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imcvspl
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88. "Too BRC soul"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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89. "^^^"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

Yeah, finally we get a BRC mention!

It's so easy to forget how many "alternative" black music scenes were percolating in the early 1990s... around the time Brown Sugar came out, it was part of the "alt-soul" scene, which was not yet defined exclusively as "neo" or "revival"... there was a lot of alt stuff that was drawing from all over the place before it was decided around 1997 that this 70s-derived sound was the definitive aesthetic for "alternative" black music.

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imcvspl
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90. "In theory we would have been better with a broader BRC influence"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

But it had no crossover appeal.
But think about it all the things we lament about the state of black music were the things that BRC really emphasized.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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91. "Good Point. "
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

>Yeah, finally we get a BRC mention!
>
>It's so easy to forget how many "alternative" black music
>scenes were percolating in the early 1990s... around the time
>Brown Sugar came out, it was part of the "alt-soul" scene


I think in retrospect, everything that wasn't traditional R&B has come to be labeled Neo-Soul but as you point out there were a bunch of different labels floating around and you could really subdivide further if you really want to.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/blackpeopleonlocalnews

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
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100. "what do dat stand fo?"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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imcvspl
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101. "Black Rock Coal-ition "
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

Interestingly enough there's an interesting connection between BRC and Black Lily.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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103. "I remember mailing out for my BRC membership"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

and never hearing back from them.

I confronted Greg Tate about it and he told me that the organization was kinda effing up and they're behind on some administrative stuff...but it was clear the coalition was essentially falling apart by that point. I think that was 1997. (Though it was 1996 when I applied.)

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
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104. "They messed up by trying to make it too much of an org"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

If it remained more a loose umbrella that organized regular events it might still be here today. But at the end of the day it was all of the administrative stuff that brought it down because everyone wanted to be a part but no one wanted to handle the biz.

That said there was just so much talent, and pretty much all of the events were that shit. I also wonder how it would have faired if the internet was more wide spread. I mean ultimately it was the predecessor to OKP and Afro-Punk but there was no real platform for connection. It was really really grassroots just in NY so I can't imagine folk trying to connect with it from outside of the city. Though there were natural connections with Boston, Philly and Atlanta.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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105. "True."
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

>I also wonder how it would have
>faired if the internet was more wide spread. I mean
>ultimately it was the predecessor to OKP and Afro-Punk but
>there was no real platform for connection. It was really
>really grassroots just in NY so I can't imagine folk trying to
>connect with it from outside of the city.

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c71
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108. "That was my time. They got me and several others on WBAI"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

for a few weeks and err'thang (when Anthony Sloan - WBAI's art director - kicked Earl Douglas and Steve Williams off the radio show).

Got a few pic's of my BRC era. I was all in it from 90 - 94.

Went to meetings when the meetings were on W125th in Harlem and when meetings started taking place at the Musician's Union bldg around W 50 - something street.

  

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Dj Joey Joe
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95. "Maxwell Gets My Vote"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I never cared for D'Angelo's first album, Erykah Badu first album was good and definitely neo-soul album but so was Davina's album (which is soooo slept on), but you can't forget Andriana Evans & Grenique's album either.


https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

  

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revolution75
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107. "Unofficial: sons of soul/ official: brown sugar"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Sons of soul...i couldn't keep it to myself alone supports the theory. There's also the tribe influence lurking on the record as well. Theres also the resurgence of the fender rhodes..a sound that was rarely used in 93 r&b.

Now since kedar coined the term...the official first neo soul record would be brown sugar but the blueprint was laid down by ttt in june '93.

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

  

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SoWhat
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109. "i just don't hear Neo-Soul in SoS."
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

too much H-H and NJS on it.

fuck you.

  

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revolution75
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110. "Slow Wine, Pillow and I Couldnt keep it to myself????"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

Those songs were completely different from what was considered hot back then
The only song i can think of that has a little bit of njs was loot
Evertything else had that 70's throwback aesthetic

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

  

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SoWhat
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112. "nope."
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

they all sound very 90s to me.

yeah, there's some electric piano on 'I Couldn't Keep It To Myself' but the drums are SO hard (and awesome) that i don't get a 70s vibe from it.

'Tonyies in the Wrong Key' is a clear 70's Sly tribute. that's the closest to Neo Soul the songs get, IMO. and that song ain't Neo Soul either.

fuck you.

  

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revolution75
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115. "To me..neo was rhodes and a rim shot or tribe inspired drums"
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

  

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SoWhat
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119. "it also requires a certain 'warmth' in the production."
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

i dunno the right words to use. but a Neo Soul record needs to at least attempt to evoke that 'warmth' heard on 70s Soul/R&B records. w/o that it's not Neo Soul. it's something else.

most of Sons of Soul is too cold and clean to be Neo Soul. it's too shiny. i like the album quite a bit so this is no diss. but that feeling is why i can't classify that album as a Neo Soul record.

fuck you.

  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
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132. "Wow, to me, "I couldn't keep it to myself" sounds more 70's than a lot o..."
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

we call "Neo Soul"....the drum sounds may have more of a Hip Hop texture, but the pattern could easily be from the 70's. And not just the rhodes, but the horns, the changes before the hook, the breezy vibe to it, it all just sounds soulful to me.

And also, "Neo soul" to me meant that it was a slight 90's Hip Hop influence to it, and wasn't an exact replica of 70s Soul. Even with D'Angelo, that was for sure Hip Hop influence...I think most of it had that feel until 2000 when some artists songs sounded straight from the 70's, with acoustic drums and no modern synths.

And it's from 96, but "Lovin you" sounds VERY very 70's to me...I thought it was a remake when I heard it.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

  

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SoWhat
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135. "'Lovin You' is very Neo Soul, IMO."
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

more so than just about anything on Sons of Soul.

fuck you.

  

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shockzilla
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111. "I think it was obviously a precursor"
In response to Reply # 109


          

but it probably was 'brown sugar', after all.

  

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SoWhat
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113. "Fender Rhodes + 808 = Neo Soul?"
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

is that it?

if so i disagree.

fuck you.

  

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shockzilla
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118. "that was pretty much the formula, i thought."
In response to Reply # 113


          

guess i'll find your argument above.

  

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denny
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161. "Don't think there's much 808's in neo-soul."
In response to Reply # 113


          

Maybe they use the bass drum to add texture to the kicks. But the 808 sounds are colder than most of the neo-soul sets.

  

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SoWhat
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164. "thanks, smart guy."
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

whatever the label is on the drum machine at issue - that's what i'm talking about.

fuck you.

  

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Voodoochilde
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114. "depends on ones definition of so-called 'Neo-Soul' obviously, but for ME..."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-30-14 07:37 PM by Voodoochilde

          

....the one that blew the doors open and sounded the alarm that there was something genuinely refreshing and new (that clearly stood out from what ELSE was mostly going on at the time) yet it also felt retro in an honest and unforced way...

for me hands down it goes to Meshell Ndegeocello's 1993 Plantation Lullabies...

sure, there may have been tracks here and there by others who hinted as well, but i clearly recall in 1993 putting the cassette in for that Plantation album in for the first time sitting in my car in the parking lot almost listening to the WHOLE thing because i was SO thrilled by what i was hearing...sounds weird but it kinda felt like i could finally 'exhale and relax a bit' cuz i was thinking "YES! THIS is what i've been WAITING for in a modern R&B release for a long long time. finally someone has lifted the baton and started to run with it again......"

  

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DVS
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120. "Dunno, but I'm fairly certain it came out of London"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

All Neo-Soul was imho was a channeling of some of the freedom going on overseas because the mainstream radio was locking the airwaves stateside.

D

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Waldorf and Statler Vol 4:CONAN IS OUT NOW!!!: http://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com

and don't forget to check "DVS 4 ALDERMAN"

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Chicane
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133. "Agreed. Omar's Nothing Like This and Des'ree's Feel So High"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

Readily come to mind.

__________________
Okayplaying since '00

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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122. "So let's talk about location. It's either Philly or London right?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

As far as the home or birthplace of Neo-Soul?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/blackpeopleonlocalnews

  

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SoWhat
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123. "of those 2 - Philly."
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

fuck you.

  

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SP1200
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124. "Home and birthplace can be 2 totally different things."
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

Philly is definitely not the birthplace, but they took to the sound
early.

Home can be where it's enjoyed the most success and that's debatable.

But the vibe was happening all over.

The South definitely had a huge hand in the creation of neo soul.

Joi (the prototype neo soul album) out of Atlanta.

D out of Richmond.

Most of Baduizm was created by Dallas underground hip-hop producers.

Didn't realize that til I had a talk with one of the producers of the
album.

He complained about how The Roots only had 2 tracks on Baduizm, but
Philly seemed to get the shine for the creation of that album over
Dallas and recognition of being a neo soul powerhouse.

Who's city's scene got the shine overall tho seemed like it depended
on the city's proximity to major labels and magazines.



http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

  

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GumDrops
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130. "anita baker"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the star of 'retro nouveau' R&B
and then maybe omar, or young disciples (not really soul II soul as they were still very modern, they werent trying to bring anything from the past back)
and then TTT and sons of soul (produced in part by ali shaheed no less)
and then brown sugar and baduizm

  

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Voodoochilde
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168. "Stop the presses, Gum may have just 'dropped the mic'..."
In response to Reply # 130
Sun Aug-03-14 07:50 AM by Voodoochilde

          

>Anita Baker, the star of 'retro nouveau' R&B

now that i think about it, why NOT Anita Baker?
i mean, while her name typically NEVER comes up in 'when did this so called 'neo-soul' movement really start to make a splash.....

technically speaking, by my definition at least, you are probably right....why not Anita Baker back in the 80's??

....i mean, when ya think about her initial Songtress album...hell yeah, why NOT there?

<Voodochilde jumps up to give GumDrops a high five on this one>

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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172. "But then why not Phyllis Hyman?"
In response to Reply # 168


  

          

It's a good point that Anita Baker was "alternative" to Radio R&B at the time but I don't think she was "Neo" anything. I think there is a straight line between Anita Baker and classic Jazz Singers like Phyllis Hyman, Oleta Adams, etc.


I think what made Neo-Soul isn't so much that it was hip-hop influence, but rather it was a reaction to hip-hop influenced R&B.

I don't Anita Baker's music had any relation to hip-hop. Not influenced by it or a reaction to it.


Our age grew group sits in an interesting position because we are the last generation to embrace hip-hop that wasn't raised on hip-hop. That gives us a unique vantage into the impact Hip-hop has had on all music.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Ezzsential
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131. "erykah badu"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


i dont have colors
my mmsic:
www.soundclick.com/sylana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brb8g8f18xE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NgNuVHrEKI

  

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imcvspl
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134. "Been hinting at it all post but I think the hip-hop link is overstated"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Like throw back soul made for a hip-hop generation that didn't produce bands - yes. Absolutely. Merging of classic soul with hip-hop.... nah b. Not at all.

If we take it as a movement official from like 96-01 with the proto going back to like 93, it was toning down the hip-hop influence of things like TLC, BBD into Mary J and Jodeci all the way up to Aaliyah Ginuwine and Missy which were actually doing the hip-hop meets r&b thing which evolved to the hot 97 home of hip-hop and r&b model.

But by the second wave of neo soul like 99 they were trying to abandon hip-hop sonically as much as possible. Oh sure we can talk about ?uest being in a hip-hop band and Dilla behind the beats and all that, but what they were making was practically hip-hop antithesis, which was actually going against the grain. It might as well have been band music which was what they were trying to push because they were of a musical talent which was above hip-hop in that it connected to those roots of black soul music organically blah blah blah...

Again for me the primary definer of neo soul would be a reverence for historical soul, and a self righteous pretension. Sprinkle in the smooth jazz, and meander a bit with the vocals and you've got it covered.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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136. "^ this is how i see it."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

i hadn't thought about this 1st wave/2nd wave issue. maybe that's where the disagreement over the amount of HH in NS lies. maybe the initial NS had more HH than the 2nd wave. and maybe when i think of NS i only think of the 2nd wave and not the first.

like to me Mama's Gun and Voodoo are much more NS than Baduizm and Brown Sugar. even though Baduizm was the 'original' NS release (1st one w/the tag upon release), Mama's Gun was more true to the principles that undergird NS.

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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137. "If you remove the sampled drums"
In response to Reply # 136


          

from any of Soul II Soul's tracks, there would be very little if anything left outside of the occasional horn blast that would remind you of Marley Marl or the Bomb Squad.

Those were some deftly crafted and very musical arrangements. I think this qualifies them to be considered more than just a rap group with singers.

peace.

  

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SoWhat
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159. "it still doesn't make their music NS or proto-NS."
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Felonious Punk
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160. "Sowhat has convinced me on SIIS."
In response to Reply # 159


          

It isn't Neo-Soul unless Neo-Soul is the container you throw all alternative soul music in.

Still disagree with him though on Sons of Soul.

  

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DigiSoul
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162. "The Neo-Soul era officially began"
In response to Reply # 160


          

with Baduizm as that is when the term was introduced to the public. I'm not saying that Soul II Soul is a neo-soul group. I'm saying that the music that they recorded in the '80s and '90s was informed by many of the same principles that the coming neo-soul generation would adopt. In other words, like the "neo" artists, Soul II Soul's music was guided by an appreciation of classic soul music (with added touches of reggae/dub), hip-hop music and the afro-centric lifestyle.

I have no qualms with anyone referring to Soul II Soul's music as hip-hop soul. The point that I'm making is that Soul II Soul's music is much too layered and diverse to fit the definition of hip-hop soul as stated in post #47. Aside from the drums, what else in their arrangements sounds like the sampled breaks and interpolations which form the basis of hip-hop track production?

  

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SoWhat
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163. "i haven't said all of the group's music is HHS."
In response to Reply # 162


  

          

i said 'Back to Life' was or maybe was the first HHS record. and maybe 'Keep On Movin' too.

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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165. "Which brings me back"
In response to Reply # 163


          

to the question I raised in my prior post. What qualifies "Back to Life" and "Keep On Movin'" as R&B singing over hip-hop tracks?

Is it the dub inspired bass? The Afro-Cuban percussion? Perhaps it's the string arrangements a la Gamble and Huff/Philadelphia International? Could it be the part in the bridge of "Back to Life" where the pianist plays the modal chords based on the same figure that Bill Evans played on Miles Davis' "So What" and voiced same way? How about the absence of sampled drum breaks/loops?

  

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SoWhat
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166. "The acapella version of Back To Life, playboy."
In response to Reply # 165
Sat Aug-02-14 11:37 AM by SoWhat

  

          


You know, the one that features homegirl singing an ARE AND BEE song over a SAMPLED DRUM BREAK. That one, hotshot. And if you can't hear that then I dunno what to tell you, pimp.

I don't care to discuss this any further.

fuck you.

  

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DigiSoul
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167. "Sorry to upset you..."
In response to Reply # 166


          

but more specifics from the beginning of our exchange could have warded off any unnecessary tension. Yes, the a cappella version of "Back to Life" would be considered an early version of hip-hop soul. Since you didn't specify this version, my mind defaulted to the full version.

Please accept my apologies as I am not trying to start any trouble with anyone. I don't post often but when I do, I look for areas where I can engage in in-depth music discussion.

peace.

  

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imcvspl
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138. "Incidentally to drive home my Joi point"
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

By 1995 when D' was releasing Brown Sugar, Joi had teamed up with Fishbone and was making Ameoba Cleansing Syndrom which predicted that second wave which wouldn't hit til '99.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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139. "Amoeba Cleansing Syndrome was some BRC shit, though"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

In fact, I always viewed that album as the last gasp of late 80s/90s Black rock.

That and Chim-Chim's Badass Revenge

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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c71
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140. "RE: Amoeba Cleansing Syndrome was some BRC shit, though"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

>In fact, I always viewed that album as the last gasp of late
>80s/90s Black rock.


ACS wasn't released in the 90's (it was briefly sold in the mid-2000's)

so....

that would be a pretty dismal "last gasp" for 90's Black Rock.


Jean-Paul Bourelly was making music in the late 90's.

  

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imcvspl
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142. "We had bootleg cassettes of ACS in 96 n/m"
In response to Reply # 140


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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c71
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143. ""last gasp" implies that there was a public reaction to it"
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

no release = no public reaction

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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145. "I don't think I care about the 'public' reaction as such"
In response to Reply # 143


  

          

after all, the the "public" at large never cared about Black Rock to begin with.

But among those who were hip and had a stake in it... just about everybody I knew heard ACS in 96-97.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
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147. "the lack of public release can be seen as the nail in the coffin "
In response to Reply # 143


  

          

for the creators of it.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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150. "right. nm"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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144. "if you was in the loop, you had the promo in summer of 97."
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

>ACS wasn't released in the 90's (it was briefly sold in the
>mid-2000's)
>
>so....
>
>that would be a pretty dismal "last gasp" for 90's Black
>Rock.
>
>
>Jean-Paul Bourelly was making music in the late 90's.

Sure, lots of people continued to make music.... but that feeling of it as a "movement"... it kinda dissipated after 1997 or 98.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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c71
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146. "as I said in reply #108, 90 - 94 was my BRC era"
In response to Reply # 144
Fri Aug-01-14 12:40 PM by c71

  

          

I still bought CD's by Bourelly and The Veldt and Faith (NYC Felice Rosser) in the late 90's but like I said in #108, 90 - 94 was my "in the loop" era

  

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imcvspl
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149. "btw who were you playing with?"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

am i wrong in remembering you play bass? or am i thinking of afkap?

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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151. "I do play bass but I wasn't playing with nobody back then lol"
In response to Reply # 149
Fri Aug-01-14 12:46 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

I think I recall c71 mentioning playing bass before though

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c71
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153. "I auditoned as a guitarist for The Nubian Souljahs in 92"
In response to Reply # 149


  

          

And in 1992 or 1993 I auditioned for the band Suburban Dog (the bassist was Chuck Brownley who was a key BRC member in the 92 - forward era) but, I never got accepted in any band.

Tried to start a band in NJ around 93 but the others didn't like the BRC so me and them didn't click since I was really into the BRC then.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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141. "Agreed"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

but there were at least three or four cuts that had neo stamps on them.

Also agree about chim chim. I loved that album too.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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148. "And oddly enough, the neo-ish tracks were the least interesting"
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

to me, despite me being all ABOUT neo-soul during that period.

That album was incredible

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Aug-01-14 12:49 PM

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152. "Connecting posts"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

though all mulatto'd out I'd say Cree Summer's Lenny Kravitz produced Street Faerie and the ball Sony dropped on that was the obituary. Doesn't quite fit cause like it's not out of the heart of the BRC movement but you take it and you take Kelis' debut and you see the direction the industry chose.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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154. "I never really thought about it this way"
In response to Reply # 152


  

          

>but you take it and you take
>Kelis' debut and you see the direction the industry chose.

but I think there's something to be said about that...

Remember Rachid, who was kinda like the male Kelis for a hot second?

I know I still have his CD somewhere...

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Aug-01-14 01:10 PM

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155. "The name Rachid sounds familiar but I can't place it..."
In response to Reply # 154
Fri Aug-01-14 01:11 PM by imcvspl

  

          

>>but you take it and you take
>>Kelis' debut and you see the direction the industry chose.
>
>but I think there's something to be said about that...

Sony Work, who incidentally in 98 released Breath From Another which while I don't think people consider it neo-soul obviously influnenced Res which I'm pretty sure folks would include, got folded right as Cree's album dropped so that the money from that label could be put behind promoting J. Lo's debut.

I always blamed Kravitz for this because IMO (which is probably flawed but whatever) he could have stepped in at that point and ensured the album got a proper promotion cycle. But there was just a general mishandling of her image wise.

Kelis while there are obvious differences again IMO had the image which could have been made for Cree to a success level that would have at least kept her from abandoning music all together.

It's crazy I was working with teens at the time as a counselor and gave that album to coming of age girls who subsequently fell in love with it and gained the type of confidence so much of the other music at the time was stripping away from them.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
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Fri Aug-01-14 01:21 PM

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156. "RE: I never really thought about it this way"
In response to Reply # 154
Fri Aug-01-14 01:23 PM by c71

  

          

>Remember Rachid, who was kinda like the male Kelis for a hot
>second?
>
>I know I still have his CD somewhere...


I don't think Rachid was like Kelis. He was like sorta like Seal meets .......uuuhhhh a little Terrence Trent D'arby or George Michaels. Trying to be a alternative pop/R&B I wouldn't call him neo-soul

I heard his CD "Prototype" over and over and over because I worked at Tower Records (village NYC) then.

An interesting thing is that one song on his CD, Rachid was talking about how his father was always away playing in a band and doing shows/tours and that hurt him as a child. It was said in the press that his father was Robert Kool Bell of Kool & the Gang.

so....

One night at Tower Records I'm ringing up a purchase from a guy that looks like he's my father's age. I see he's buying a CD of the Kay-Gees, an east coast 70's funk band. I had bought the "Keep on Bumpin'"/"Masterplan" CD compilation myself a little while earlier.

So, I say to the guy "how's this CD?" He asked me if I heard the Kay-Gees. I said I bought the "MasterPlan" CD. He said that the Kay-Gee's had improved on the CD he was buying. He was buying the Rachid CD. I said: Robert Kool Bell is his father. The man said: "no, I'm his father".

So, the man was apparently someone who was in the Kay-Gees who were related to Robert Kool Bell (he wrote and produced the Kay-Gees and was related to some on them) and they agreed to let Rachid say that Robert Kool Bell was Rachid's father when he actually was the son of the guy I was talking to that night.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Aug-01-14 01:29 PM

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157. "The old neo-soul mythos went so deep"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

>So, the man was apparently someone who was in the Kay-Gees who
>were related to Robert Kool Bell (he wrote and produced the
>Kay-Gees and was related to some on them) and they agreed to
>let Rachid say that Robert Kool Bell was Rachid's father when
>he actually was the son of the guy I was talking to that
>night.



█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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158. "wow!!!"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

>So, the man was apparently someone who was in the Kay-Gees who
>were related to Robert Kool Bell (he wrote and produced the
>Kay-Gees and was related to some on them) and they agreed to
>let Rachid say that Robert Kool Bell was Rachid's father when
>he actually was the son of the guy I was talking to that
>night.

Yeah, when imcvspl asked me who Rachid was, I was just about to answer "Robert Kool Bell's son..." So that was a hustle, huh?

It's weird... I always felt it was a strange connection anyway, and the way he used to offer the information back then was on some super-modest shit, like he was even annoyed that people had found out... I never understood how it benefited him to be associated with KATG anyway, since it only made people expect him to be at least a *little* bit funky... which he definitely was not.

I guess you're right to compare him more to Seal (albeit an "edgier" version of him) but for some reason I always compared him to Kelis. Not necessarily the "I hate you so much right now!!!" Kelis, but the "Suspended" Kelis... but yeah, I guess Kelis was way too, uh... "urban" to really make that a valid analogy.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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ToeJam
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185. "RE: Been hinting at it all post but I think the hip-hop link is overstat..."
In response to Reply # 134


          

I don't think they abandoned hip-hop at all. Some of the tracks, like Didn't Cha Know, are mostly Dilla sample production with some live elements sprinkled in. I think it's more about ADDING live instrumentation to hip-hop production/foundations.

  

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cbk
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169. "when did the words "neo soul" first come outta kedar's mouth?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

was it during the "brown sugar" ramp up?

or after "brown sugar" and pre "baduizm"?

disregarding the labelling, i think that somewhere between meshell, tony toni tone, and tribe is the first instance of (*gulp*) "neo soul." i heard it as the anti-teddy riley soul music that was made by younger artists (e.g. not anita baker, luther, etc.).

closer to d'angelo's arrival, i remember dred scott saying that adriana evans' first promo single ("reality"?) pre-dated "brown sugar" by some months.


D'ANGELO beat tape PART 2: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/album/dangelo-beat-tape-2020

IPHONE LP2 “A beatmaker who loved” https://music.apple.com/us/album/a-beatmaker-who-loved/1473644375

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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170. "I just heard Billy Lawrence's Paradise (1997) for the first time recentl..."
In response to Reply # 169


  

          


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOjSWzUz-XQ

It's funny because when I heard it and tried to guess the era I was off by like 10 years.

Easily a Neo-Soul record.


I would also even argue that Angela Wimbush Treat U Rite (1994) had neo soul elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygYCV-_Fa0E

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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spitfire
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171. "Reality was so dope to me"
In response to Reply # 169


          

I remember getting a cassette single with vibe magazine from Kedar Entertainment. one side featured A+ the other Erykah's on & on and 'Ain't nobody's business' acapella. I played that tape so much. because of that acapella i had her in my mind as a straight descendent from Billie at the time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://vintagesoulmusic.tumblr.com
http://vintagehiphopmusic.tumblr.com
http://onetwann.tumblr.com

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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173. "Such a dope ass discussion. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Fri Jan-07-22 02:47 PM

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174. "Where do folks think soul and/or R&B stand today?"
In response to Reply # 173


  

          


I heard the term "trap soul" the other day. Is that just the new terminology for today's popular soul music? Or does it have some defining characteristics?

Is neo-soul still a thing? or has it been around too long to be neo anymore?

  

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soulfunk
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178. "Damn this whole post made me miss the old OKP..."
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

  

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obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
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Mon Jan-10-22 11:06 PM

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179. "Yeah. "
In response to Reply # 178


  

          

We really should be upping old posts and rekindling some of these debates.

<--- Me when my head hits the pillow

  

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Small Pro
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Tue Jan-11-22 07:25 AM

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180. "RE: Damn this whole post made me miss the old OKP..."
In response to Reply # 178


  

          

same

--------------------------------------
#86Witness

  

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
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Sat Jan-15-22 12:32 AM

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183. "i read thru the whole post this evening like a good book."
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

this post exemplifies why this place was so dope. like u said...GREAT discussion...i wish ? woulda weighed in.

  

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Castro
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175. "Omar "There's Nothing Like This""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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micMajestic
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176. "Joi - "The Pendulum Vibe" June 28 1994"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I think it's easily overlooked because it's not "great".

  

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micMajestic
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177. "I would consider Native Tongues & Soul II Soul as precursors to the Neo-..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

movement. Between the two all the elements were there, no?

  

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RagOnMe
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181. ""They're doing Tribe shit" (c) Phife (when asked about neo-soul.."
In response to Reply # 177


          

..in some interview)

  

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ne_atl
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Thu Jan-13-22 10:57 PM

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182. "Omar? "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

There's Nothing Like This (1990)
Music (1992)
For Pleasure (1994)

seeing that some of the artist mentioned here were already fans of his.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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