We usually do the Nas vs Jay thing and everything is compared to Illmatic.

But the Ready To Die post combined with the best debut post had me thinking what the consensus on this was.

Poll result (59 votes) Christopher Wallace (42 votes) Vote Shawn Carter (15 votes) Vote I'll take The Sun Rises in the East over both! (2 votes) Vote

Ready To Die was the bigger album but I'd rather listen to Reasonable Doubt, less wear & tear with more still tried-and-true past the singles/big-non-singles.

Bring It On, both Can I Lives, D'Evils, Regrets......still not going thru the motions yet when I hear these songs.

Unbelievable sometimes I'm just rhyming along & nodding out of reflex.

Who Shot Ya will never get old to me though.

Reasonable Doubt might be all around better produced, in fact I'd say it almost definitely is.

Plus Jay's got an extra 15 years or so of material to spread around, Big pretty much everything is encapsulated on the Mr Cee Best Of, the debut & the double.

And all those posthumous Eminem beats & other bullshit blends my little cousin's friends were pulling out in the early 2000s trying to impress me with their 'old school' selections just disgusted me.

I still say that RTD is the classic between the two because of impact and quality matched but RD get the replay value from me.

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
www.debunkthemyth.org
http://dashaunworld.wordpress.com/
www.mothergreen.com

Remember MJ The Great!
PSN: ThirteenRose

.

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Because it doesn't make sense

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

It's possible that Big is on the best song on Reasonable Doubt and Reasonable Doubt can still be better.

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Classic phil looking like an idiot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sertraline

try some

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Not so sure I would classify that as music discussion but if it makes you feel cool...by all means.

>
#actualfacts

RTD....not even a conversation.

Nowhere near the best song on RD.

Actually it's the least of the 3 Jay/Big collabos. But to each his own.

_________________________________________

emphasis on ""

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

.

it ain't even close. Biggie would run the Camel off back into the woods in a battle on the Mic. Big was a better story teller and more Funny and he fit with whomever he was working with.

Biggie could roll with R&B and also roll with Bone thugs and harmony and then give you that NY coldness.

Biggie was 5 times better than Lay Z.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

But I know the fall out between Jay and Kells forms your opinion.

and I use to listen to Biggie freestyles,etc... i always dug Biggie period. i always found Jay Z rather flat. i seperate things on the music tip and I just have always dug Biggie and comparing albums I'm taking Biggie

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

I don't like it.


``i know you are fake. . . 'cause man, i'm the same.``
"king of rain." http://bit.ly/GNVnDp
"untitled 4." http://bit.ly/1772QTW
"doctor who nursery rhyme." http://bit.ly/18oC1gH
"1.5.2.0" http://bit.ly/18UMv7A
"for vini." http://bit.ly/19HQbtF

Instead of just talking a lot and very loudly, why not try listening and discussing something? It seems like your whole existence here is to scream on the people that you think aren't correct. And that turns very reactionary and I don't think I've ever seen someone hold on to grudges for as long and with so much intensity like you do. It makes for a very hostile environment. When I say, "I don't like this post" I don't mean that in a personal way — like I think you're a bad person or anything. As long as I'm just saying so without any malice whatsoever, I feel like I should be able to without being reamed because maybe we've disagreed pretty aggressively in the past.

Just saying.


``i know you are fake. . . 'cause man, i'm the same.``
"king of rain." http://bit.ly/GNVnDp
"untitled 4." http://bit.ly/1772QTW
"saudade de mañana." http://bit.ly/1hNZLhy
"1.5.2.0" http://bit.ly/18UMv7A
"for vini." http://bit.ly/19HQbtF

First in your subject line you tell me it's a discussion board yet you didn't come in here to discuss anything.

>Instead of just talking a lot and very loudly, why not try
>listening and discussing something?

I'm actually attempting to have a discussion on RTD and RD. You're interrupting that plain and simple. And then not only are you interrupting it, you're being a hypocrite by telling me I'm not discussing anything.

It seems like your whole
>existence here is to scream on the people that you think
>aren't correct.

I haven even given m opinion in this thread so how can that even be possible? I haven't argued with anyone that has come in here and given their opinion. If you feel I'm "screaming on you" the you should re-evaluate how you initially responded.

And that turns very reactionary and I don't
>think I've ever seen someone hold on to grudges for as long
>and with so much intensity like you do.

LOL...and this post is evidence of some mystery grudge? Ok

It makes for a very
>hostile environment. When I say, "I don't like this post" I
>don't mean that in a personal way — like I think you're a bad
>person or anything. As long as I'm just saying so without any
>malice whatsoever, I feel like I should be able to without
>being reamed because maybe we've disagreed pretty aggressively
>in the past.
>

You either discuss the music topic in the thread or you don't. Plain and simple. I don give a fuck what you *think* his post is and why you dont want to participate. Just dot reply. What's the point of your response? Honestly?

Nothing I say to you has anything to do who a previous conversation. You are one of those people like instigates shit and then when you get punched in the face you cry to the teacher. That's just how you act on here. I'm not here to change you but if you're replying with some dumb shit, I'm going to tell you.

>Just saying.
>

I'm just wondering if you would like to discuss RTD vs RD...just saying.

exact same shit over the past week or so. he doesn't care

read that reply... good grief

And why am I the only finding it funy that the guy who posted "I don't like this post" then turned around and told me "try discussing something"

Y'all can't be serious.

justin scott told you the same shit in the "best debut post"

i told you and remedial told you in another post last week

now Austin

you claim to be all calm and level-headed about discussion, but whenever anyone disagrees with your color by numbers holy grail account of 90s hip hop you start writing dissertations, name-calling, and running up post counts and denouncing every reply as "stanning" or "the lesson is at a new low" schtick

I don't know if I honestly think it is but I do know I playe Jewelz to no end in 97 so it has that special place.

That could be due to lack of good hip-hop that year as opposed to 94 though.

But shit, he has 3 classics in my book...you can put Trophies in there.

OC is underappreciated as shit.

--------------------------------------
https://smallprofessor.bandcamp.com

Gave the east coast a platinum album after a long run of west coast dominance. Lol at the cat saying Big's death plays a part in the praise of this album. RTD was a classic before Big passed. Big gave you detailed stories and good production from easy mo bee, the bluez brothers and lord finesse. Classic!

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

For you and those who are saying it's not really close, do you consider Reasonable Doubt to be a classic?

And if so, how wide of a range can these classics be for one to not even be close to another?

>For you and those who are saying it's not really close, do
>you consider Reasonable Doubt to be a classic?
>
>And if so, how wide of a range can these classics be for one
>to not even be close to another?
Nope.

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Maybe Tribe but def not Wu

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

and MM went triple plat before 95

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Where are you getting these numbers from fam? 36 Chambers didn't go plat until May 95 after Big was plat. 36 Chambers isn't even double plat fam.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

yeah 36 did like 1.5 if I'm not mistaken

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

#15: Reasoable Doubt: 9.47/10
#21. Ready to Die: 9.37/10


and the .10 is quite probably attributable to the presence of Diddy. So I'll abstain from voting.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

i'd agree that RTD was bigger back then, but not sure how much of that was because of the bad boy sphere of influence and what ppl liked back then
from a pure art perspective RD is so much better it's not funny, as a result it's aged MUCH better imo
RD == better production, little bit better distribution of subject matter, attempt at including concept songs, and the smooth nonchalant hustler flow was before it's time

~~~~~~

he stop the yelling and forceful delivery and became the smooth hustlar playa fully

http://twitter.com/Menphyel7


"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

Big was doing that style right after RTD on the remixes and JM's album. Y'all giving Jay credit for Big's flow now?

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

switch his style up to be more similar to Jay and you think Jay had no infulence...Im not saying he straight stole his style but they helped each other.

http://twitter.com/Menphyel7


"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

I believe Nas' story on Last Real...

because you can claim anyone stole from the other.

Nas, Big, Jay, AZ, Raekwon...they all seemed to borrow from each other yet each one was unique so I can't really say that any of them straight up copied the other.

Because if you really wanted to, you could say Jay stole from Nas and AZ and then Big stole from Jay so who are you really giving credit to?

I'm giving credit to all of them because they were all dope period.

Prodigy was really the only one out of those big 90s NYC MCs that had his own style that seemed to be completely his own.

i dig your determination to elevate his status
but fact remains, he ain't holdin' a candle to nas, jay or big
one good debut verse doesn't make him THAT dope

btw, i like both albums equally

life always offers you a 2nd chance...it's called tomorrow. use it wisely

He isn't in that list of MCs now because his career didn't pan out. But he most definitely was among those MCs back in 1994-1996. He's not sitting at that table at the end of Dead Presidents for no reason. You can say what you want now and place him wherever and even shit on Doe Or Die because you don't like the fact No Joe produced 1 so g but he was one of the top guys back then.

>i dig your determination to elevate his status
>but fact remains, he ain't holdin' a candle to nas, jay or
>big

Status wise, no but lyrically he's just as good if not better than a few...you pick the few lol.

>one good debut verse doesn't make him THAT dope.

He's had much more than one verse. That statement is ridiculous. I can send you a best of that is better than most MCs. He just didn't have a landmark album like the others. But in Hip-Hop...landmark albums are like Super Bowl wins. You need one for the half-asses fans to recognize you. So shit, AZ is Dan Marino and Jay is Eli.

>btw, i like both albums equally

Cool. Yea they're both classics. And I never really saw them argued on here because we always put every album up to Illmatic.

Jay was still doing the Fuschnickens style in 95. He started switching due to everybody's flow changing after illmatic. Somebody had to influence him to switch his style.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

in early '95 jay was still fast-rapping. and he and big didn't really even know each other yet.

lulz @ big stealing jay's flow. dudes swear they be knowing what they talmbout lol.

___

it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. - sherlock holmes

http://twitter.com/Menphyel7


"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

That's post illmatic though. Everybody changed their style after that so how is he responsible for Big's change.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

Nas wasn't some playboy money making hustlar flow on Illmatic he was a grimey street dude..he didn't become that with the flow til IWW...which folks say he copied BIG on from the singles.

BIG and Jay influenced each other you can tell the difference from RTD to LAD.

http://twitter.com/Menphyel7


"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

>i'd agree that RTD was bigger back then, but not sure how
>much of that was because of the bad boy sphere of influence
>and what ppl liked back then
>from a pure art perspective RD is so much better it's not
>funny, as a result it's aged MUCH better imo

I believe maybe Bombastic and DJ R-Tistic's take on Doggystyle in my Wesst Coast album post can be applied here. Do you think the fact that RTD was everywhere in 94-95 that it is having a negative affect on the way it has aged?

>RD == better production, little bit better distribution of
>subject matter, attempt at including concept songs, and the
>smooth nonchalant hustler flow was before it's time

I don't know if I can say that there is a better distribution of subject matter because Big covered a lot of things on RTD.

n/m

__

fairweather

for the time and impact, BIG was the one

* * * * =========
* * * * =========
* * * * =========
==============
==============

RTD was helped greatly by the One More Chance Remix being a HUGE hit but it wasn't on the original album.

If Jay had an executive producer with pop sensibilities as broad as Puffs, RD would have probably been a bigger record. Big poppa would not have been on an album BIG put together on his own. The combo of Juicy, Big Poppa then One More Chance remix (all basically loops or interpolations of established prior hits production wise) all make that album huge. Without those 3 songs (all Puffs influence), that album gets a LOT less fanfare.

Ain't no Nigga was the ONLY joint on RD that was radio friendly for the most part (Can't knock the hustle was moderate though it featured MJB). If songs like hard knock life, Nigga What/Who and Can I get A that Jay had the wherewithal to pen later were on RD, it woulda been bigger album than RTD IMO.

But SPM nailed most of the reasons why RD is better.

____________

i was neva that biginto jz

CHECK OUT AND DOWNLOAD MY FREE BEATS @ WWW.SOUNDCLICK.COM/SYLANA
~i dont deal with colors letters or any morse codes or beams~
"and suddenly the ghetto didnt seem so tough u thought u had it rough we always had enough"~tupac

off jump street, whereas Jay had hits, however it wasn't until 98/99 that he started to hit out here.

Biggie had folks feeling his thing and Biggie made it work despite Puffy trying to throw sugar on his songs. Biggie still put his foot into it.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>Biggie had folks feeling his thing

use to play his stuff all the time and he had it on lock out here with the Quickness.

i saw a chick the other day as a matter of fact rocking a Biggie T Shirt. Biggie always had love out on the West Side.

with Jigga it took a minute. like i said 98-99 is when he hit. and even then Ja Rule and DMX were bigger. depends on where you live.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

I mighta heard a reasonable cut once.
I hear Biggie all the damn time. Almost as much as the Drake,Ye,Jay new shit. It's kinda weird. All sections of the borough all hours of the day, it never fails someone's banging a cut from RTD

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

Classic joints right there

>Classic joints right there

I just think they're 3 dope ass albums from Brooklyn artists in 94 and 95.

might hold a bit of a different weight than that for me.

either way, those 3 albums all has a similar vibe to me.

all great records.

however when it's not playing I still hardly recall any of the words said on that album, which call-and-response hook is repeated or shouted ad naseum in which spot, who I prefer between Tek & Steele or whether it matters at all since them being sorta anonymous sounding is part of this album's appeal, which track is it where Buckshot does that dope little smoked-out-sing-song-Cypress-Hill-inspired-coda, what the song-title/tracklist-order is, etc.

It's an album a lot of people have championed because it's pretty undeniably bulletproof as a dope hip-hop record that captures that mid-90's Boot Camp milieu (even though it doesn't have as many 'money tracks' as Enta Da Stage or possibly even Nocturnal).

If you're a dyed-in-the-wool rap fan as most of us growing up in that time on this board are, you basically have to dig Dah Shinin & complaining about anything on it would feel like nitpicking.

It's easy to love a record like this, like loving a pet rather than a person, this record is loyal to an aesthetic we as rap fans coming of age in the late 80s or early-to-mid-90s pride ourselves on being able to appreciate.

There's no complications in that relationship or different context it gets thrown into that would muddy those waters.

With Biggie or Jay's debuts, they don't get that same luxury because they're two of the highest-profile MC's in the genre's history with personas/choices that force you as a fan of rap music to take a position.

The singles & even some of the album tracks have been beaten mercilessly through overplay.

The MC also might do a record here or there aimed at a different sensibility than the 'puff mad blunts catch wreck with my crew' crowd.

But there's a reason people don't care about Tek & Steele today even on the level people do Buckshot, Sean Price or Rock.

I remember more Louieville Sluggah lines than these two dudes combined & I don't even like OGC that much (shit, 'Da Storm' was basically an attempt at redoing this album with a few of the pieces moved around).

Plus always Louie always straddled that 'is he wack or enigmatically incredible? Is that an intentionally effortless off-centered flow or can he really not find the beat' fence for me.

What works to make Dah Shinin' teflon is the same thing that makes the material after it forgettable.

the fact that a hip-hop fan can downplay an album for its greatest aspect is just further proof that hip-hop fans are never satisfied and will always look for a way to nitpick.

You basically said that Dah Shinin' is flawless and then proceed to say that that very fact is its flaw.

I know what you're trying to say but it doesn't fundamentally make sense and only a hip-hop fan would take that route to find a flaw in an album.

>the fact that a hip-hop fan can downplay an album for its
>greatest aspect is just further proof that hip-hop fans are
>never satisfied and will always look for a way to nitpick.
>
>You basically said that Dah Shinin' is flawless and then
>proceed to say that that very fact is its flaw.
>
I actually never say it was flawless, said it was pretty bulletproof for the lane/audience it was aimed towards.

If you read me between the lines in the more critical sense, I basically just said its two MC's are pretty pedestrian/unremarkable & many of its songs run together with unimaginative/hooks breaks that separate the forgettable verses.

But as I said I'm a true rap head til I'm dead and I'm not gonna be out on boards or in public trying to kill this album just for the sake of propping up another.

I'm saying its an easier album to proclaim love for in hip-hop circles of people in/around their 30s.

That is different than the way we address the two albums in this post's subject.


>I know what you're trying to say but it doesn't fundamentally
>make sense and only a hip-hop fan would take that route to
>find a flaw in an album.
>
>

but Dah Shinin is more fun for me to listen to because of the memories it brings back and because i love that grimy sound that the Beatminerz brought for that CD...

Tek and Steele did their thing too..I liked almost all those BCC guys.


i still revist all 3 albums at 2 3x a year.

-------------------
I wanna go to where the martyrs went
the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...

>but Dah Shinin is more fun for me to listen to because of the
>memories it brings back and because i love that grimy sound
>that the Beatminerz brought for that CD...
>
>Tek and Steele did their thing too..I liked almost all those
>BCC guys.
>
They were cool but I'd rank them no higher individually in BCC than 4th or 5th.

>
>i still revist all 3 albums at 2 3x a year.

yup, plus the remix album.

as good as RD is, it was a second tier album when it came out. Never was or is better than RTD.