Ok, we see post all the time about the top 10 MC's which is impossible to do of course. My question is does Rakim & KRS have to be in your top 5 for credibility? Some older fans think that if you don't name them in your top 5-10, you don't know anything about hip hop. Now, I'm an 80' baby who has seen 25 years of hip hop so they influenced me and are top 10 to me but I'm just talking in general. So a few questions:

1. Are they universally in most people, publications and even websites top 5? Should they be?
2. Are they often underrated or overrated?
3. If a fan of any age (you have to do your hip hop history & did in the crates) think they neither are top 5 or 10, do they lose credibility with you in a hip hop conversation?

Random thoughts....peace people

-Tony

younger cats don't. It's kind of like a top 5 basketball list. None of the older dudes i didn't see in their prime will be on it.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

out of a conversation about Jazz because you like 'edgy fusion stuff'. Regardless of your aesthetic tastes, you should know who changed the direction of the genre and who innovated the form.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

as well.

Instagram: ascensionmusic

i don't care how great of an emcee he is, dude underachieved like a muhfugga.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

but like LL, I give a pass because the first stuff they put out was so legendary and ahead of its time...to each his own tho.


Instagram: ascensionmusic

A Taste of Chocolate was not good from what I remember and neither was
Prince of Darkness. Looks Like A Job For was solid but he followed that
with another dud.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

"Your current frequencies of understanding outweigh that which has been given for you to understand." Saul Williams

Just curious

catalog
live show
impact on "the game"
dopeness

not in that order.


"Your current frequencies of understanding outweigh that which has been given for you to understand." Saul Williams

KRS and Rakim definitely made music for the moment. Paid in Full and Criminal Minded were soundtracks to the times, and while the music has held up well, they haven't put out any high level material in a while. So if I really started to get into rap after the mid 90's, then I can understand it. Also, the thing is that rap music and hip-hop wasn't nearly as big as it became A.H. (after Hammer), so it's not like they were getting a lot of mass appeal everywhere.

You're such pests...now, what is it you want? In your depths of your ignorance, what is it you want? Well, whatever it is you want, I can't deliver because I just don't see it. - Orson Welles


Never Tired, Always Sleepy

You guys are so cute.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

This agenda of yours is officially played out.

'choons:
"soul in isolation." http://bit.ly/159yQaK
"jacques snicket." http://bit.ly/14iU9Xs
"pushed by wind." http://bit.ly/164IZGB
"I've always been interested in people, but I've never liked them."
—Henry James
austintayeshus.blogspot.com

Hipsters thinking they are so "thoughtful" for
re-evaluating top 5s without Ra/KRS

Lol

Its dumb

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>
>Hipsters thinking they are so "thoughtful" for
>re-evaluating top 5s without Ra/KRS
>
>Lol
>
>Its dumb
>
>----------------------------
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "

Not sure if either you are talking about me but this is a legit questions. I clearly stated they are both in my top 5 & I honestly don't know what a hipster is. This is no shock post nor am I part of the okayplayer fraternity. This is an honest question from a person who has listen to hip hop since 1985. If that wasn't directed at me, I stand corrected. As for the post, some fans who know hip hop feel that kool g rap, nas, jay-z, biggie, eminem and maybe 1-2 MC's are possible better than Rakim and KRS. I didnt say that but some people who know the genre honestly think they are. Busta & Common but said Nas was #1 and some people I have seen on here don't even have Nas top 5 or 10. It's all relative man..lol

I stand by my summary, though.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

wow. lmao

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

Yeah, I was minding my business

you got mad

o yes thats the truth

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

but like always, you are going to reply to it saying I'm mad. I just don't see how this is a hipster thing at all. you make everything hipster things

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

.

^^^^shut up, faggot.

Smh

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

and while the subject matter is there, 99% of him rhymes are trash

he doesn't come close to rakim in that regard

.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

>and while the subject matter is there, 99% of him rhymes are
>trash
>
>he doesn't come close to rakim in that regard

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

>and while the subject matter is there, 99% of him rhymes are
>trash



__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

shut up, faggot.

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

>and while the subject matter is there, 99% of him rhymes are
>trash
>
>he doesn't come close to rakim in that regard

http://www.imgnook.com/0mDa5o.gif

------------------------------------
2019 CABG Survivor

2016 OK Survivor Champion

be about it or be without it

RIP GOATs

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

oh. I replied to the wrong post. FYI I'm SMHing at the dude who said KRS is wack

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

not only by fans, but by the other two as well

n/m

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I hate folks who top 5 is the ole predictable shit...Like who you like don't be afraid

http://twitter.com/Menphyel7


"F you Im better in tune with the Infinite"

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

I just listened to both *last night*.....and Kane, however I can't in good conscience still put Kane in due to pretty much everything post-90 or so.

Though Kane did have some jams post "Taste of Chocolate."

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

Soooo

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

I mean I used to tag 'BIG DADDY KANE IS GOD' on lockers & sneakers as a 13-year-old.

That's my dude completely.

But Jay's catalog eclipsed his at least ten years ago & I've come to terms with that.

There's a lot of reasons/factors & Jay clearly took a page or two from him but it is what it is.

Just saying

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

then stopped making them.

I wish that wasn't the case but it is what is.

His & Jigga's catalogs are really not very close.

Kane in his prime can hang with any MC ever though & onstage murk 'just about anyone'(c)BDK

Niggas in Paris - Kanye's coattail

Run this town - Rhianna and Kanye Coattail

New York song - awful song, but its essentially an Alicia Keys song

Kingdom Come had zero memorable songs

He hasn't delivered a single real, memorable moment since
American Gangster in my opinion.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

It's a false equivelancy unless you were trying to say Hov has no essential songs from Hard Knock Life on aka his third album to Kane's Taste of Chocolate which was where the falloff started.

As far as Kingdome Come goes, Trouble is still a personal favorite for me.

Top 25 or 30 Jay song.

Also, I distinctly remember you dedicating a post proclaiming your love for the New York cut when it came out by the way.

>As far as Kingdome Come goes, Trouble is still a personal
>favorite for me.

K. Nobody cares about that album, though. It was trash.

Nice video with Earnhardt and them though

>Top 25 or 30 Jay song.

Lol

>Also, I distinctly remember you dedicating a post proclaiming
>your love for the New York cut when it came out by the way.

I like Alicia's hook, one of the best all-time

Jay completely mailed it in lyrically though


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

It's really that simple, my dude.

I don't really care to defend Kingdome Come or throw any further shade at BDK

Jay has the longer career & better catalog, Kane himself would tell you that.

Now if you went 86 to 97 KRS, then there's a valid debate to be had.

There is a personal top 5 or 10 and then there are the top lists where you try and take your own personal bias out of the equation. For example Ras Kass is one of my favorite MC's but I wouldn't argue that he's a top 10 MC because I know that there are many more artists who have just as much skill as he might have on the mic but have made better records, contributed more to the culture, etc. To me KRS & Rakim are always in that top MC ever discussion much like Jordan and Magic have to be in the top 5 if you're talking basketball players. Forget age or when you heard them or what you grew up on..I love MC's from all different eras but I have never heard anyone display better skills on the mic than those 2. For some reason Hip Hop is the only genre I can think of that some people feel like you have to have been of a certain age to acknowledge the greatness of an artist. If someone were to ask me to give them examples of MCing at it's finest I'd take a song from Ra and a song from Kris to show them that this is the best I've ever heard.

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

criticize a fan who doesn't have either in their Top 10 or even 25, and will be even more outraged if they have a Lil Wayne or T.I., or even Kendrick, and no mention of a Kane or Kool G Rap.

I am 28, which means most folks my age who put Rakim and KRS in there didn't see them in our prime, but we had to make an actual effort to go and study their music. People my age are more familiar with Slick Rick and LL for 80's Rap, because they had bigger hits. So if someone who's like 25-30 doesn't have either in there...I'm not at all surprised, and won't judge them like "you don't know your shit." BUT, it also depends how arrogant they are with their opinion. If they say "Rakim was boring as shit, Pusha T and Wayne are more influential than he ever was" then the convo is over.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

You got it.

Thanks

that's not being knowledgeable enough on the topic to discuss it
there's nothing wrong with going back before your time and taking an honest listen, but if you ask me the main problem is people not being able to separate their opinions from the actual discourse (if I don't like it then it's not great no matter what you say)

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Eminem isn't a Top 50 or 100, solely because they don't like his songs, or his content.

Even how Tee Love is on Facebook, always saying "Kendrick is extremely average, I was there in the 90's when you had to be GREAT to be seen as a good rapper. He would be mediocre in the 90's"

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

he wouldn't be seen as being great in that era, not a knock to him but that's not ageism
it was a harder era to come up in really, but again it's totally fine, and should be expected and welcomed, for those that know to tell ones that don't about things that happened before their time

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>Eminem isn't a Top 50 or 100, solely because they don't like
>his songs, or his content.

I mean let's be real...Eminem turns 41 this year, Jay is 43, Pharoahe Monch is actually OLDER than Rakim so it's kind of hard to buy the ageism claims when most of the top MC's that you've mentioned that weren't from the golden era are actually around the same age as MC's that some folks will claim sound so old. I really think this is more about perception than what the actual reality is. Em broke out in his late 20's as did folks like Kanye and 50. Back in the 80's and 90's by the time KRS, Rakim & G Rap were that age they were already 3 or 4 albums into their career so people seem to think they are so much older than they actually are.
>
>Even how Tee Love is on Facebook, always saying "Kendrick is
>extremely average, I was there in the 90's when you had to be
>GREAT to be seen as a good rapper. He would be mediocre in the
>90's"

I think Kendrick is dope and I would actually argue that if he came out in the 90's he might be bigger than he is now because there was more attention on the West and it was rare that more of the lyrical MC's broke out from the West to sell any units so if he were able to do what he's doing now he'd probably be double or triple platinum.

Jay-Z could be Rakim's age, but because Ra peaked before some kids were born, and because some Rap fans stopped liking everything after 96...both sides deal with it. Folks who don't like any new rap, regardless of the artists' age (2 Chainz and Juicy J are old too)...and young folks who just don't like older eras of Rap as much.

>>Eminem isn't a Top 50 or 100, solely because they don't
>like
>>his songs, or his content.
>
>I mean let's be real...Eminem turns 41 this year, Jay is 43,
>Pharoahe Monch is actually OLDER than Rakim so it's kind of
>hard to buy the ageism claims when most of the top MC's that
>you've mentioned that weren't from the golden era are actually
>around the same age as MC's that some folks will claim sound
>so old. I really think this is more about perception than what
>the actual reality is. Em broke out in his late 20's as did
>folks like Kanye and 50. Back in the 80's and 90's by the time
>KRS, Rakim & G Rap were that age they were already 3 or 4
>albums into their career so people seem to think they are so
>much older than they actually are.
>>
>>Even how Tee Love is on Facebook, always saying "Kendrick is
>>extremely average, I was there in the 90's when you had to
>be
>>GREAT to be seen as a good rapper. He would be mediocre in
>the
>>90's"
>
>I think Kendrick is dope and I would actually argue that if he
>came out in the 90's he might be bigger than he is now because
>there was more attention on the West and it was rare that more
>of the lyrical MC's broke out from the West to sell any units
>so if he were able to do what he's doing now he'd probably be
>double or triple platinum.

I actually agree with this, and this is exactly what I mean. I mean for real, I am not gonna say Kendrick is better than 2Pac, Cube, or even Snoop..but he was for sure better than 95% of the L.A. rappers in the 90's. The music they made was completely different, so it's hard to compare. But for somebody to act like he ONLY gets attention because he's "above average in a game full of wack rappers" shows exactly what I'm referring to.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

It's not truly about skills but instead it's about Rakim or KRS being seen as "old". Add to the fact that many in Hip Hop just always want the new guy from when they truly got into the music to be considered the best even if it's not true. I also hear people saying shit like "oh that's so typical to pick KRS & Rakim I like to be different". So they'll throw someone in there just to not go along with with what the masses say even if it's true. If someone is being universally lauded as the best decades after they were hot then that says something about their skills.

>Jay-Z could be Rakim's age, but because Ra peaked before some
>kids were born, and because some Rap fans stopped liking
>everything after 96...both sides deal with it. Folks who don't
>like any new rap, regardless of the artists' age (2 Chainz and
>Juicy J are old too)...and young folks who just don't like
>older eras of Rap as much.

You're a lot more likely to hear an old head give it up to someone like Em or Black Thought or someone who came to prominence after the golden era than you are to hear younger heads acknowledging people like G Rap, Slick Rick, etc.

>I actually agree with this, and this is exactly what I mean. I
>mean for real, I am not gonna say Kendrick is better than
>2Pac, Cube, or even Snoop..but he was for sure better than 95%
>of the L.A. rappers in the 90's. The music they made was
>completely different, so it's hard to compare. But for
>somebody to act like he ONLY gets attention because he's
>"above average in a game full of wack rappers" shows exactly
>what I'm referring to.

As far as being an MC I'd honestly say that lyrically Kendrick had a better debut (not counting mixtapes) than every LA MC besides Cube & Snoop. He can spit, tell stories and just write a damn song with the best of them. I think if he had come out in 1990 he would have got a lot more love from the east coast than West Coast MC's were getting back then because lyrically he can hang with anyone and he's not all "gang banged the fuck out".

>criticize a fan who doesn't have either in their Top 10 or
>even 25, and will be even more outraged if they have a Lil
>Wayne or T.I., or even Kendrick, and no mention of a Kane or
>Kool G Rap.

I've never understood the "had to be there" mentality that some people have when it comes to Hip Hop. I mean these are lyrics, flows, recorded. The whole point of recorded music is so that you don't have to be there to go back and listen to it. I wasn't in the Bronx in the late 70's or early 80's but I can easily listen to Melle Mel flow and know ok this dude is a highly skilled MC. I can also listen to say Kurtis Blow or Busy Bee and know that they were more entertainers and not super lyrical MC's.
>
>I am 28, which means most folks my age who put Rakim and KRS
>in there didn't see them in our prime, but we had to make an
>actual effort to go and study their music. People my age are
>more familiar with Slick Rick and LL for 80's Rap, because
>they had bigger hits. So if someone who's like 25-30 doesn't
>have either in there...I'm not at all surprised, and won't
>judge them like "you don't know your shit." BUT, it also
>depends how arrogant they are with their opinion. If they say
>"Rakim was boring as shit, Pusha T and Wayne are more
>influential than he ever was" then the convo is over.

I would judge them the same way I'd judge someone who suggested that Ne-Yo or Chris Brown were top 10 R&B singers.

>>criticize a fan who doesn't have either in their Top 10 or
>>even 25, and will be even more outraged if they have a Lil
>>Wayne or T.I., or even Kendrick, and no mention of a Kane or
>>Kool G Rap.
>
>I've never understood the "had to be there" mentality that
>some people have when it comes to Hip Hop. I mean these are
>lyrics, flows, recorded. The whole point of recorded music is
>so that you don't have to be there to go back and listen to
>it. I wasn't in the Bronx in the late 70's or early 80's but I
>can easily listen to Melle Mel flow and know ok this dude is a
>highly skilled MC. I can also listen to say Kurtis Blow or
>Busy Bee and know that they were more entertainers and not
>super lyrical MC's.

I for sure understand it. And I'm actually one who prefers a lot of 80's Rap to 90's, especially when it comes to East Coast Rap.

I think it's the DJ side of me that makes me understand it. Skill wise in Rap, it's much different than comparing it to singing...you didn't have to "be there" to get that Marvin or even Billy Eckstine was a good singer. But Rap evolved at an extremely rapid pace from 79-92 or so, and ears that didn't get into Rap until the 90's and 2000's would have a hard time understanding what made a rapper in 1981 good, or even 85-86.

Even for me personally, I remember Rakim being honored, maybe on VH1, and rappers like Kurupt pointing out the EXACT lines and styles he used that influenced Rap, and how no one did it before him...and I said "whoa....see, I thought he was dope, but never had an example like that to make me see how ahead of his time he was."

Young ears judge moreso for overall listenability/enjoyment, and can't always appreciate certain rappers or even production styles that have evolved a lot since that point.

Best example I'd say is video games. A kid who grows up on Black Ops may still enjoy Metroid, whether because of it's simplicity or because it's just fun, but I don't expect him to understand how great the graphics were at the time. I'm not saying Rakim is Metroid, but many rappers at the time or before Rakim could be comparable to that, because they aren't as advanced as an Eminem or Pharoahe Monche.

>>I am 28, which means most folks my age who put Rakim and KRS
>>in there didn't see them in our prime, but we had to make an
>>actual effort to go and study their music. People my age are
>>more familiar with Slick Rick and LL for 80's Rap, because
>>they had bigger hits. So if someone who's like 25-30 doesn't
>>have either in there...I'm not at all surprised, and won't
>>judge them like "you don't know your shit." BUT, it also
>>depends how arrogant they are with their opinion. If they
>say
>>"Rakim was boring as shit, Pusha T and Wayne are more
>>influential than he ever was" then the convo is over.
>
>I would judge them the same way I'd judge someone who
>suggested that Ne-Yo or Chris Brown were top 10 R&B singers.

I would too if they were that severe. But simply not listing Rakim or KRS, if they aren't a rapper or Hip Hop head, wouldn't automatically make me dismiss their opinion.

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

>>>criticize a fan who doesn't have either in their Top 10 or
>>>even 25, and will be even more outraged if they have a Lil
>>>Wayne or T.I., or even Kendrick, and no mention of a Kane
>or
>>>Kool G Rap.


>
>I think it's the DJ side of me that makes me understand it.
>Skill wise in Rap, it's much different than comparing it to
>singing...you didn't have to "be there" to get that Marvin or
>even Billy Eckstine was a good singer. But Rap evolved at an
>extremely rapid pace from 79-92 or so, and ears that didn't
>get into Rap until the 90's and 2000's would have a hard time
>understanding what made a rapper in 1981 good, or even 85-86.

Now I certainly agree that MCing evolved a lot from the late 70's to the early 90's and I'm not someone who thinks the Sugarhill gang were great MC's...they weren't. But some people transcend that such as Melle Mel or Moe Dee

>
>Best example I'd say is video games. A kid who grows up on
>Black Ops may still enjoy Metroid, whether because of it's
>simplicity or because it's just fun, but I don't expect him to
>understand how great the graphics were at the time. I'm not
>saying Rakim is Metroid, but many rappers at the time or
>before Rakim could be comparable to that, because they aren't
>as advanced as an Eminem or Pharoahe Monche.

Yes many of the real old school MC's were not as complex as Em or Pharoahe but Rakim is! We're not talking about Busy Bee or Kurtis Blow here. Go listen to Follow The Leader and tell me that Rakim isn't as intricate as any MC you've ever heard. Intricate, complex but yet still down to earth and relatable. Very few MC's have ever been able to master that and still have songs that are bangers and not just lyrically jacking off (i'm looking at you Canibus). Also, this would be a more valid point if you are talking about MC's like Eminem or Pharoahe because they are so great as well but don't come to me talking about Lil Wayne or T.I. are top 10 MC's because they are both incredibly simplistic when compared to KRS< Rakim, G Rap, etc. For me a great MC is a great MC regardless of when he came out. Em, Pharoahe, Black Thought, Andre 3000, Jay are all great MC's who I can totally see someone arguing as top 10 MC's of all time even if I don't personally have them there.
>

>>I would judge them the same way I'd judge someone who
>>suggested that Ne-Yo or Chris Brown were top 10 R&B singers.
>
>
>I would too if they were that severe. But simply not listing
>Rakim or KRS, if they aren't a rapper or Hip Hop head,
>wouldn't automatically make me dismiss their opinion.

Well when judging MC skills I was only considering the opinion of Hip Hop heads. If you're just a pop music fan and you like a couple of rappers then I could care less if you think Lil Wayne is the greatest rapper of all time because you probably also think Lady Gaga is the greatest singer of all time so it's all good. I was only really talking about people who claim to actually know Hip Hop. Shit my Mom probably thinks Heavy D is the best because she liked a lot of his songs but I don't value my moms opinion about Hip Hop either.
>

>I've never understood the "had to be there" mentality that
>some people have when it comes to Hip Hop. I mean these are
>lyrics, flows, recorded. The whole point of recorded music is
>so that you don't have to be there to go back and listen to
>it. I wasn't in the Bronx in the late 70's or early 80's but I
>can easily listen to Melle Mel flow and know ok this dude is a
>highly skilled MC. I can also listen to say Kurtis Blow or
>Busy Bee and know that they were more entertainers and not
>super lyrical MC's.

When I hear "Rock the bells" or "Beats to the rhyme", the first things that comes to my mind sure as fuck ain't "These flows are dated, these punchlines are corny"; no, I hear amazing fucking *songs*. And why are these songs amazing to me? The beats? Partially but really, those beats needed those mc's and *that* attitude to come off. Would a modern day rap-style make those songs more effective? FOH! Those beats needed a certain flow to truly come off and vice-versa; there's no way you can tell me those songs would have sounded better/more effective with modern flows.

And the argument that "Hip-Hop" moves/changes so fast as an excuse is fucking nonsense and has been so for like 20 years if not more (before that, I'd argue it had some points in terms of emceeing; beats are so trend-based that I think it's completely retarded to even try to say that this or that style is dated).

Believe you me, prior to the 00's or so, I would be able to date a metal or an indie-rock song with the error-marginal of about 2-3 years (under the assumption of course that it wasn't some self-consciously retro-shit) and the only reason I would fail today is because I haven't really stayed in touch; there are SO many factors that can date a song:drumming-style, production-values, distortion, various trends in vocals, lyrics etc.-hip-hop is far from unique in that regard.

The difference lies in the *fans*, not the music; never have I ever encountered other music where people dismiss shit because it sounds 5 years old. Hendrix or Beatles sound FAR from current; noone cares because they see other values. Even in fucking electronica-generally viewed as a trendy genre-people give Kraftwerk and Detroit-techno props in spite of its datedness. Why should Hip-Hop be any different? The development of the music isn't; it's all in the mindset of the fans-*they*/"we" are the ones to blame for this idiocy...

And when people complain about Hip-Hop not getting enough respect from the critics:I mentioned in another thread that Hip-Hop albums ever since PE has gotten high and even top placements in "record of the year"-polls in magazines that FAR transcends Hip-Hop.

However, I'd be forced to admit that many of those records (some exceptions) are not very highly rated today (alternatively they get props for hsitoric importance and "impact" rather than the musical quality). Still, when even the die-hard *fans* of the genre won't truly like those records, why should the establishment?

rapper, or sound that came along, but that's because I'm me. I know a lot of folks who just subconsciously feel this way, even if it sounds bad. And I can't say why.

But I will say this. For many people 25-30...I notice that they don't like older Rap, usually anything past 92, aside from a few major songs such as a "Children's story"...however, many of them like R&B and Soul from the 70's. And I'd say that this age range even loves 90's R&B, probably the most, although they might not all love the 90's Rap.

As a true Rap fan, it's hard to understand the psyche of people who feel this way, but it's almost my job to try and make sense of it without looking down on them or thinking I'm above them because I'm open to it all.

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>rapper, or sound that came along, but that's because I'm me.
>I know a lot of folks who just subconsciously feel this way,
>even if it sounds bad. And I can't say why.
>
>But I will say this. For many people 25-30...I notice that
>they don't like older Rap, usually anything past 92, aside
>from a few major songs such as a "Children's story"...however,
>many of them like R&B and Soul from the 70's. And I'd say that
>this age range even loves 90's R&B, probably the most,
>although they might not all love the 90's Rap.

I'd say those people are more general music fans than actual heads which is fine with me. I'm a fan of a lot of different genres that I'm not as up on like say Afro Beat or Bossa Nova. I would just be humble enough to know that I'm really not qualified to debate a Bossa Nova top 10 despite the fact that I'm a fan of the genre and several artists in that lane.
>
>As a true Rap fan, it's hard to understand the psyche of
>people who feel this way, but it's almost my job to try and
>make sense of it without looking down on them or thinking I'm
>above them because I'm open to it all.
>
>

Rakim, KRS, and Melle Mel
sure there's others that you could say that for but if you don't have the three of them in the first ten names you name I would definitely ask you where you're coming from
but what I don't get is these "KRS is wack" sentiments I'm seeing in this thread
there is nothing in regards to emceeing that KRS can't do and whether you like him or not that can't be denied

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Melle Mel is basically responsible for the modern format of what MC's do and if you go back and listen to songs like "Beat Street" that shit is undeniable. It doesn't matter to me if that was "before my time" I can hear the lyricism. Anyone saying that KRS's lyrics of all things are wack just should not be discussing Hip Hop.

That and the last verse of "The Message" are two of the best verses of all time. They still hold up.


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Hard to believe NEITHER would be in a top 5 or at least top 10 list, though, unless it's a strictly "my favorite 5" type deal.

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

To be fair, it's been over 16 years since "I Got Next" came out - which is the last KRS album I bought the day it dropped. The 10 released since have barely made a blip on my radar. (16 albums if count collaborations.)

Live he's incredibly fun to watch, and some of his political ideas are still great.

And I'll download "Return of the Boom Bip" when it comes out - and buy it if it's good.

Rakim's last great album is 21 years old now. His solo stuff isn't bad - but it just doesn't capture what I liked about him from 86 until 92.

For a Best Rappers of the 80's Rakim and KRS are in the top 5.

For the 90's maybe the top 15.

Now? Lower. But that's okay - they're still on the list.

I've officially heard it all now

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

??

No artist continues to make the same ground breaking music they did when they were young but people who set a standard for a genre aren't usually so easily dismissed. The Stones haven't released a great record in decades but no one is going to claim that they are not one of the greatest rock bands of all time.

how the fuck has Rakim slipped out of the top ten?
he's only released three albums since 1992, so your 21 year timeframe doesn't work for someone that's as sporadic as he is with recording
if that were the case Jay would've slipped out of the top ten a long time ago considering he release subpar album after subpar album

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

Hip Hop Lives
Survival Skills
Godsville
Meta-Historical
The BDP Album


All dope releases since 2007. Catch up.

that new Tony Touch project is straight heat.

I'd personally say that just by continuing to spit and hone his craft, KRS one is
coming for that GOAT position if he ain't already there. For those dudes on here
who give points for longevity, KRS got everybody beat there. Only person who
can see him there is Wise Intelligent, but KRS definitely has been more prolific.

He KILLED that tony touch spot. Krs One is unquestionably my number 1 mc of all time and really Rakim is the only other guy challenging. He's one of a kind. The way he takes on new flows and then moves on to another is astonishing. He doesn't even really master them all the time before he's gone to a next. The clarity, the bombastic voice/presence, the live show, the monumental engineering and produced records in his early works, the stop the violence and self destruction project, the bridge wars, the gangsta rap template later shifted to humanitarian, the crew tossing pm dawn


Nas or Jay aren't even cut from the same holy cloth as he is and they better readily admit that.


Even when he chats reggae I get chills. Go play brown skin woman, uh oh or that joint with just ice moshitup. He's out of this world.

1. Rakim
2. KRS
3. BDK
4. Kool G Rap
5. Slick Rick

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