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Subject: "Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?" Previous topic | Next topic
imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 12:37 AM

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"Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?"
Sun Jan-27-13 12:43 AM by imcvspl

  

          

Is it still there now even? This really isn't about those of you that say "it's in mine" as you more than likely lived through it or in close enough proximity to it to really understand how powerful an album it was and still is. Still is being operative because if you throw it on right now guarantee your mind will still be blown.

But can the new breed appreciate it like that or is it just wack to them? I mean the beats are so left field by today's standards. And without even getting into content, Chuck's flow is so unorthodoxed compared to ______ (insert relevant new rapper).

I thought about this responding to the GD post asking for albums better than Illmatic. I can see how younger cats can listen to Illmatic today and still ride for its greatness but completely dismiss Nation. That makes me sad. Sure Chuck and PE will forever be legends, but what good is that if the music isn't being passed on. The last reference to it by a relevant artist I can remember was Lil Jon making some "PE" shit for Rhymefest, and they both....

Can you think of any parallels to this in other genres?
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
As a younger cat, I don't any of PE's singles have lost their luster
Jan 27th 2013
1
"enduring" is the best way to describe my experience w/ PE
Jan 27th 2013
9
not for younger generations.
Jan 27th 2013
2
Sugar HIll and Kurtis Blow don't have universally accepted classic album...
Jan 27th 2013
3
RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?
Jan 27th 2013
4
nope. i don't think that's a bad thing though
Jan 27th 2013
5
Would you agree this gen mostly embraces 'fun' hip hop?
Jan 27th 2013
6
      generally yeah.
Jan 27th 2013
7
      No rapper out has more fun than Slick Rick did. Not by a mile
Jan 27th 2013
13
this is how the new kingdom couldn't understand the old kingdom
Jan 27th 2013
8
of course it will
Jan 27th 2013
10
RE: of course it will
Jan 29th 2013
56
this is some shit only hip hop fans would discuss
Jan 27th 2013
11
one thing that comes to mind is covers
Jan 27th 2013
21
real rap^^^
Jan 30th 2013
65
No, but kids today are dumb and narcissistic
Jan 27th 2013
12
They couldn't sit through an ALBUM, period
Jan 27th 2013
26
at least you came closest to being right
Jan 30th 2013
66
Young people are idiots.
Jan 27th 2013
14
there's no way in hell it cannot stay in that canon.
Jan 27th 2013
15
According to Bieberish Lessonheads, they were too preachy
Jan 27th 2013
16
      RE: According to Bieberish Lessonheads, they were too preachy
Jan 27th 2013
17
           dead prez were like 21 when let's get free came out
Jan 27th 2013
20
                Dead Prez were not 21 at the time of 'Let's Get Free'
Jan 27th 2013
24
                     my bad they were about that age when they formed the group
Jan 27th 2013
28
music heads will remember it, but nobody else will.
Jan 27th 2013
18
My thought is that when you have a show like UNSUNG, which is...
Jan 27th 2013
19
The Straight Outta Compton parallel is perfect
Jan 27th 2013
22
      Mos Def said it best:
Jan 27th 2013
23
           That's not what Mos Def meant at all.
Jan 27th 2013
25
                RE: That's not what Mos Def meant at all.
Jan 27th 2013
27
                "Dickriding the past", a big (or at least primary) issue today
Jan 27th 2013
33
                RE: That's not what Mos Def meant at all.
Jan 28th 2013
47
                I can dig it.
Jan 29th 2013
53
I was about to ask, if NATION OF MILLIONS doesn't...
Jan 27th 2013
29
Is there any question Nation >>>> Compton?
Jan 27th 2013
35
no question to me. Nation is clearly better.
Jan 28th 2013
38
      Of course...
Jan 28th 2013
40
           I'm with you.
Jan 28th 2013
43
i feel like invoking Kari (k_orr) when he said
Jul 30th 2013
92
I'm 20 and when I was younger
Jan 27th 2013
30
Props young fella.
Jan 27th 2013
31
yeah, u r talkin about Nehru Jackets.
Jan 28th 2013
36
"PICTURE ME GIVING A DAM! I SAID NEVER!"
Jan 27th 2013
32
best reply so far
Jan 27th 2013
34
hahaha
Jan 28th 2013
37
not if you fire it.
Jan 28th 2013
39
LOL @ people acting like being young is a moral failing.
Jan 28th 2013
41
bwahhahaah. aaand aren't u a hip old man!
Jan 28th 2013
42
It's not a moral failing. It's an intellectual failing.
Jan 28th 2013
44
RE: LOL @ people acting like being young is a moral failing.
Jan 28th 2013
45
man, hip-hop is frigging huge.
Jan 28th 2013
48
      I get your point, you didn't address my last part
Jan 28th 2013
49
           who knows?
Jan 28th 2013
50
                Bwwahah you dodging the points, old man
Jan 28th 2013
51
outside of rap-lot of my favorite records were 20-25 years old as a teen
Jan 29th 2013
57
      Thanks Bomb... you laid it out perfect.
Jan 29th 2013
58
      thank you, brotha. PE's standing is still a bit of a sore subject for me
Jan 30th 2013
69
      i hear you.
Jan 30th 2013
59
      RE: i hear you.
Jan 30th 2013
60
      Much of it has to do with sample-laws IMO
Jan 30th 2013
62
      agreed, that was one of the big ones on my list
Jan 30th 2013
68
      i think its also to do with rap's subsequent direction
Jan 31st 2013
70
           Actually, ''Yo! Bumrush..."...
Jan 31st 2013
71
                its the most conservative album of theirs
Jan 31st 2013
72
                yup-the minimalism of SchoolyD/Criminal Minded/Born To Mack hold up well
Jan 31st 2013
79
                     Fear... has aged the worst IMO...
Feb 01st 2013
80
                          agree completely, now that u mention it 1990 as a whole has aged poorly
Feb 02nd 2013
81
                          Yes, it was a pretty bad year overall...
Feb 02nd 2013
82
                               RE: Yes, it was a pretty bad year overall...
Feb 02nd 2013
83
                          does it have to sound in tune with hip hop as it turned out?
Feb 02nd 2013
84
      I Like Your Kinks & MC5 Analogy
Jul 30th 2013
90
Also, it's "CANON."
Jan 28th 2013
46
Been trying to get my teenage step bro into it
Jan 29th 2013
52
This makes me feel like it has to be incentivized :(
Jan 29th 2013
54
When I worked for this one website, I had this huge debate...
Jan 29th 2013
55
of course. think about who is in charge now in the media.
Jan 30th 2013
61
When is the last time YOU listened to PE?
Jan 30th 2013
63
RE: When is the last time YOU listened to PE?
Jan 30th 2013
64
It wouldn't win a poll on this website
Jan 30th 2013
67
Chuck D sounds like the rapping version of MLK...
Jan 31st 2013
73
RE: only to young niggers with no sense of self
Jan 31st 2013
74
some of it is kinda dated, truth be told
Jan 31st 2013
75
if Fred Hampton was 20yr old today
Jan 31st 2013
77
also, chuck has long made being in rock critics' good books
Jan 31st 2013
76
Picasso mastered draught and water colour before he made his abstracts.
Jan 31st 2013
78
RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?
Feb 02nd 2013
85
RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?
Feb 14th 2013
86
RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?
Jul 30th 2013
87
yes, until someone lights the fuse.
Jul 30th 2013
88
yes it will and it is a important album, however
Jul 30th 2013
89
It Will Always Be a Critical Favorite
Jul 30th 2013
91
FOABP > ITANOMTHUB
Jul 30th 2013
93

Nodima
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Sun Jan-27-13 01:14 AM

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1. "As a younger cat, I don't any of PE's singles have lost their luster"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But I'm SURE that unless folks are like me just devouring shit, they're not totally open to owning or enduring a whole PE album. Who knows, maybe in that way it's its own jagged little thrill people just have to thrown down their (ears) and hope for the best.


It's in my Top 10 (#7), but I doubt anyone else in their early twenties outside of people making and/or consuming music for a prospective living would feel the same. I'm not sure I buy total indifference though. Then again, I hang around hipsters, music nerds and stoners. Crane-game some random 18 year old from Atlanta, Oakland or Seattle and ask them to love that album, maybe 3/10 times it totally doesn't work out, 3/10 times it's awkward but interesting and 3/10 times it's pretty good and then some new mixtapes hit LiveMixtapes and they forget.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas
"I don't read pages of rap lyrics, I listen to rap music." © Bombastic
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Sun Jan-27-13 03:29 AM

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9. ""enduring" is the best way to describe my experience w/ PE"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>But I'm SURE that unless folks are like me just devouring
>shit, they're not totally open to owning or enduring a whole
>PE album. Who knows, maybe in that way it's its own jagged
>little thrill people just have to thrown down their (ears) and
>hope for the best.
>

based on the Nation and Fear albums.

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Fructose Soda
Member since Feb 19th 2012
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Sun Jan-27-13 02:10 AM

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2. "not for younger generations."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This has been discussed ad nauseum, so I'll keep it brief.
White boys who are into rock might fuck wit it, but not much anybody else who fucks wit these MMG Young Money Good music people.
Its a whole different aesthetic from a different point in time. Its the same reason why you'd never catch me listenin to Sugar hill gang or Curtis Blow.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Sun Jan-27-13 02:15 AM

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3. "Sugar HIll and Kurtis Blow don't have universally accepted classic album..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

They don't have universally accepted classic albums. Kurtis comes close as the first Gold rap album, but nobody would call it a classic. Nation isn't just a hip-hop classic but is also considered an American music classic, which will be named dropped by artists that lived through it as influential for the next couple of decades. After that it's anyone's guess. That said you're probably right.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Sun Jan-27-13 02:30 AM

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4. "RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?"
In response to Reply # 0


          



Yep....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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5. "nope. i don't think that's a bad thing though"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jan-27-13 02:34 AM by BrooklynWHAT

  

          

maybe for folks that are solely into classic rap. like the kids that grow up only liking classic rock.

but for young folks w/ modern sensibilities, PE isn't even on the radar. sorry but it's true.
we also love Tribe more than DLS although that's unrelated.
at least from what i've seen.

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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6. "Would you agree this gen mostly embraces 'fun' hip hop?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Sun Jan-27-13 02:40 AM

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7. "generally yeah."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


i just don't think their sound & the delivery of their message resonates w/ the average person my around my age and younger (<21)

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Sun Jan-27-13 09:38 AM

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13. "No rapper out has more fun than Slick Rick did. Not by a mile"
In response to Reply # 6
Sun Jan-27-13 09:45 AM by Orbit_Established

  

          

Today's rappers are whinier and take themselves
way more seriously than the old school niggas

Even PE had a nigga like Flavor Flav just hamming
it up, chillin

Today's rappers are mostly horrible and emo

Guys like Kudi are horrible and emo

Drake is talented but super duper emo

At least Lupe is politically emo, which kids today
hate but is far less grating if you're not a hipster


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Reuben
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Sun Jan-27-13 03:17 AM

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8. "this is how the new kingdom couldn't understand the old kingdom"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

in kmt

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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Garhart Poppwell
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Sun Jan-27-13 09:20 AM

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10. "of course it will"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

if you're talking about what's popular and what people gravitate to, that changes every six or seven years
but culturally? it'll never not be there and that's what's important, not the tastes of children and the men that act like them

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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Dirty Dansk
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56. "RE: of course it will"
In response to Reply # 10


          

Well put..

http://da-dk.facebook.com/BoomClapBachelors

  

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motherburd
Member since Oct 18th 2012
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Sun Jan-27-13 09:34 AM

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11. "this is some shit only hip hop fans would discuss"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

seriously.
i have never in my 30 years ever heard of kids having to like something in order for it to remain in the 'canon'
i've mostly heard this term with regards to literature
but if it were up to kids/the younger generation to keep certain literature in the canon
there would be no canon.
having a canon is about preserving history
PE may not 'hold up' in the ears of todays youth but that doesn't mean it loses its meaning
and influence all of a sudden.
i mean this is the same genre that doesn't want its rappers to be older than 35 before people start screaming they're too old to rap
so i'm in no way surprised.

THAT'S ENOUGH

  

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imcvspl
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21. "one thing that comes to mind is covers"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

and how that's a means by which new generations in other genre's keep things in the cannon. hip-hop more or less doesn't allow for that. you'll still get relevant rock artists of today covering the classics. happens less and less in rnb these days. but yeah i see your point, there just seems to be something else about it. A kid that grew up on The Strokes today wouldn't struggle through listening to the Stones. punk fans can get into the stooges. there's another factor involved here. i think i was alluding to it with the fun reply. has all the seriousness been stripped out of hip-hop? and that's not to say i'm opposed to fun at all but as i'm sure you'll agree it goes deeper than that.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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cgonz00cc
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65. "real rap^^^"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          


>but if it were up to kids/the younger generation to keep
>certain literature in the canon
>there would be no canon.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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12. "No, but kids today are dumb and narcissistic "
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jan-27-13 09:39 AM by Orbit_Established

  

          



Same way I am dumber and more narcissistic than
my moms' generation

This doesn't necessarily have to be the case (this
trend), it just happens to be the trend over the last
few generations

Kids today think the Hunger Games' Trilogy is better
than the 'Lord of the Rings' Trilogy. I've read both.
The Hunger Games is laughably bad, 2nd-grade reading
level material

Kids today think Wiz Khalifah is better than Rakim

Same way I thought the Wachowski brothers were
better sci-fi storytellers than Asimov and my
parents' generation laughs in my fucking face

(In hindsight, they right of course)

Same way I thought Mary J. Blige >>> Aretha

Chick in middle school said Aretha was better and
got clowned to no end

Old stuff is not always better...there's lots of awful
old things

But its definitely true that young people don't have the
attention span, are dumber and more narcissistic

They couldn't sit through a PE album because its smart
and doesn't make them feel tough or rich the same way
a stupid niglet shouting into the mic about how rich
they are does


  

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Jaymz
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26. "They couldn't sit through an ALBUM, period"
In response to Reply # 12


          


>They couldn't sit through a PE album because its smart
>and doesn't make them feel tough or rich the same way
>a stupid niglet shouting into the mic about how rich
>they are does

-----
Get over yourself.

  

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cgonz00cc
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66. "at least you came closest to being right"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

ink the Hunger Games' Trilogy is better
>than the 'Lord of the Rings' Trilogy. I've read both.
>The Hunger Games is laughably bad, 2nd-grade reading
>level material

>Kids today think Wiz Khalifah is better than Rakim

>Same way I thought the Wachowski brothers were
>better sci-fi storytellers than Asimov and my
>parents' generation laughs in my fucking face

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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Sun Jan-27-13 12:53 PM

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14. "Young people are idiots."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Mash_Comp
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15. "there's no way in hell it cannot stay in that canon."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

everything about that record is Hip-Hop personified. everything, even the "noisy" Bomb Squad production. it is brash, bold, in-your-face Hip-Hop. i may be the lone old fogey nearing 40 who feels this way, but the LP maintains all the highs it did when I was teenager when it first dropped. I dare say it's a timeless record and introducing it to younger folks (like my teenaged brother) yielded positive results.

there's no way this album is nothing but received as Hip-Hop.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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Orbit_Established
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16. "According to Bieberish Lessonheads, they were too preachy"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>everything about that record is Hip-Hop personified.
>everything, even the "noisy" Bomb Squad production. it is
>brash, bold, in-your-face Hip-Hop. i may be the lone old fogey
>nearing 40 who feels this way, but the LP maintains all the
>highs it did when I was teenager when it first dropped. I dare
>say it's a timeless record and introducing it to younger folks
>(like my teenaged brother) yielded positive results.
>
>there's no way this album is nothing but received as Hip-Hop.

And kids just want to have fun now


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Funkymusic
Member since Sep 19th 2008
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Sun Jan-27-13 01:32 PM

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17. "RE: According to Bieberish Lessonheads, they were too preachy"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

If you want to know that answer, just ask a young kid what he thinks about Dead Prez. Not saying Lets Get Free is a classic, but they have that "kind" of aestethic and message throughout their music, more or less.

signature pose.

  

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motherburd
Member since Oct 18th 2012
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Sun Jan-27-13 02:31 PM

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20. "dead prez were like 21 when let's get free came out"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

or are we talking about CHILDREN when we say 'kids'?
i'm 30 so anyone 7 to 10 years younger than me i call 'kids' so i'm confused lol

THAT'S ENOUGH

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Sun Jan-27-13 04:33 PM

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24. "Dead Prez were not 21 at the time of 'Let's Get Free' "
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>or are we talking about CHILDREN when we say 'kids'?
>i'm 30 so anyone 7 to 10 years younger than me i call 'kids'
>so i'm confused lol

Not sure what your point, or the person preceding you's
point is, though

They were in their mid-late 20s

----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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motherburd
Member since Oct 18th 2012
5657 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 04:59 PM

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28. "my bad they were about that age when they formed the group"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

not sure what his point was which is why i responded the way i did
trying to get what his point was.

THAT'S ENOUGH

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 01:39 PM

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18. "music heads will remember it, but nobody else will."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

folks in the general population will forget about it.
but that's true of most classic albums.

people in the general population don't remember ALBUMS
as much as they remember singles and artists.

regular people know who the rolling stones are,
but they can't tell you what songs were on "sticky fingers."


regular people know michael jackson made "thriller,"
but some of them think that's the one that had "rock with you" on it.




folks that dig music a lot will
do the research and come across "...nation of millions."


but no,
i don't think anybody besides music head will
remember the album.

  

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johnbook
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65030 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 02:26 PM

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19. "My thought is that when you have a show like UNSUNG, which is..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

admirable, but it comes off as a means of saying "if you didn't have MTV status or if you are not the black Justin Timberlake, Adele, or Eminem", you are worthless. I'm sorry. I don't like UNSUNG's perspective of making it as if the artists are not as worthy, but "admirable by us". Then again, when you have younger artists saying "I'm not into those old fools", this has become the end result. Then again, guys like Led Zeppelin, Cream and (early) Fleetwood Mac were admirers of the blues, so they resurrecting Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson was equal to producers sampling old records in mid to late 80's hip-hop. It goes back to the line in "Talkin' All That Jazz", "and if we would not, people could've forgot". How does one forget its own roots? When you do, this is the end result. Oh, everyone is quick to point the finger at STRAIGHT OUTTA COMPTON, which is still a great album, but how does one deny the power and majesty of IT TAKES A NATION OF MILLIONS TO HOLD US BACK? I'm sorry, but for as long as I live, as small as my outreach may be, I will never lower the standard of hip-hop that I grew up listening to and defining as "my own".






THE HOME OF BOOK-NESS:
http://www.thisisbooksmusic.com/
http://twitter.com/thisisjohnbook
http://www.facebook.com/book1


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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 02:57 PM

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22. "The Straight Outta Compton parallel is perfect"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

Because yeah I think it's position is secure. Does it really boil down to the presentation of the content? Is PE simply not what kids want their hip-hop to be? And what does that say?
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
66714 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 03:18 PM

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23. "Mos Def said it best:"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

"People treat Hip-Hop like it's a giant living in the hills..."

I think kids of today have a right to their version of Hip-Hop and it's up to their generation to deem whether or not its timeless. I happen to to think that the great LPs of the late 80s-early 90s last in the generation that loves them because we're able to dissect it and appreciate...plus we're still largely consumers ourselves.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52929 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 04:50 PM

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25. "That's not what Mos Def meant at all. "
In response to Reply # 23
Sun Jan-27-13 04:55 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          

>"People treat Hip-Hop like it's a giant living in the
>hills..."
>
>I think kids of today have a right to their version of Hip-Hop
>and it's up to their generation to deem whether or not its
>timeless. I happen to to think that the great LPs of the late
>80s-early 90s last in the generation that loves them because
>we're able to dissect it and appreciate...plus we're still
>largely consumers ourselves.


I'll get to that later.

This conversation is basically a run-of-the-mill "how important
is history?" conversation. The Hip Hop component of it is
secondary.

Literature has this conversation all the time.

Music has it. Art has it.

You have modern visual artists who don't know/don't care
who Van Gogh was. Art has a way of shaming people into
respecting the past, tho. I'm not a visual artist, so I can't
comment on whether or not knowledge of (or appreciation for)
the past is important to modern success. I do know several
art historians, and they basically feel like they are the
reason art is art. And good for them.

Literature seems to have done a nice job of ensuring that
the canon receives is proper due. And the literature world
does a nice job of making people recognize where their style
was born, who influenced it, etc.

Like, "who is the most bitten" is the subject of lots
of literary criticism. Influence and ontogeny are a part of
literature. Always has been. Always will be.

Hip-hop seems to be different, in part because "goodness"
doesn't really appear to have anything to do with talent
anymore, and that's not an indictment of hip hop more than
any other modern pop form of music. But it has been stripped,
long ago, of any meritocracy.

Because progress in hip-hop has zero to do with skill level,
and so studying the past/respect for the past/knowledge of the
past is less and less important.

Pitchfork liked Chief Keef's album for the same reasons they
were excited to take him to a gun range -- not because of the
music, but because he was on house arrest for pointing a gun
at a police officer.

If a straight-A student from Whitney Young high school in
Chicago makes the same songs, they don't even get to
Pitchfork's desk, and if Pitchfork reviews the album, it
gets horrible reviews.

That was less the case in PE's day -- sure, we liked Chuck
D's starter hats and all, but honestly they woulda looked
like a bunch of cornballs if they didn't happen to make some
of the most magical music ever (any genre).

(We forget that Flavor Flav *always* looked like a dumbass;
we liked him because the music he was on legitimized his
look. The music was incredible)

Same with Illmatic -- Nas was perhaps the most normal-looking
author of great music we had ever seen. Girls in my school
thought he was "cute" and all, but his image had zero to do
with why anyone listened to the album.

So yeah -- today we're in an era where the music (and listeners)
are simply dumber and more narcissistic. They don't care
what the music sounds like. They care about who has a criminal
record. And who makes them feel tough and rich.

This is why the canon doesn't matter.

Because a canon implies that there is something essentially
good about the music.

I mean, have you ever heard a Wiz Khalifah album? He's a C plus
rapper on his best day (grading on a curve).

A guy like Wale, who I reaaaallly want to like, has "the worst
nigga in Leaders of the New School"-level taent.

These niggas can't rap. They suck, actually. Most of them.

And the kids who do respect the canon, like Joey Bada$$ are
criticized for 'dickriding the past'.

So the canon is pretty much done. Keef don't need to know KRS
to shout in a microphone with the skill level of an 8 year old
girl. He eating well off of it, and good for him. Hopefully he
can use the money to build a life that lasts longer than 21
years.


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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motherburd
Member since Oct 18th 2012
5657 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 04:58 PM

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27. "RE: That's not what Mos Def meant at all. "
In response to Reply # 25
Sun Jan-27-13 04:58 PM by motherburd

  

          

>So the canon is pretty much done. Keef don't need to know KRS
>to shout in a microphone with the skill level of an 8 year
>old
>girl. He eating well off of it, and good for him. Hopefully
>he
>can use the money to build a life that lasts longer than 21
>years.


this is not how a canon works. i can write a book/epic poem without having ever read homer's the odyssey but that book/epic poem still remains in the canon of great literature.

THAT'S ENOUGH

  

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johnbook
Charter member
65030 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 06:01 PM

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33. ""Dickriding the past", a big (or at least primary) issue today"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

For me, I will always want my hip-hop to sound like the standard I created. But I also still want it to move forward, to progress. This is why there was/is such a thing as "progressive rock". As much as it was considered "wanking off", there's some incredible music found within. Yet I don't want to think people will feel it's only legitimate because Kanye sampled it.

Progressive hip-hop? What would that be but placed in the blame pot for everything that some feel is bad about hip-hop? Alternative, emo, blah blah blah. I love hip-hop when it's structured, direct, and to the point. Now you have stuff like nerdcore that some feel is completely idiotic, and yet some of it is more "true" to what I like. Some of the best MC's are nerds, you couldn't help but be, but that's frowned upon. You had dancehall songs where it looked down on you if you were a nerd, which was code as "you're not man enough" and it becomes one dick joke after another, and not the good jokes either.

I'll keep on saying it: once hip-hop felt it needed to stunt its own growth for the sake of measuring up to relevancy, it split itself to where it's no longer good or bad. It feeds off itself in order for it to be more. There's a lot of hip-hop today that I don't like, but I like it when I hear someone that makes me go "oh damn!", and do they dick rice the past? I don't think they want to be their parents hip-hop (or grandparents at this point) but I think the lack of a "respect your elders" mentality is what hurts the music. It has moved beyond the music, but part of the time I think the music is in serious neglect. It's very much like MTV: one big reality show with nothing to show.






THE HOME OF BOOK-NESS:
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http://twitter.com/thisisjohnbook
http://www.facebook.com/book1


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Tycredo
Member since Oct 06th 2012
366 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 10:17 AM

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47. "RE: That's not what Mos Def meant at all. "
In response to Reply # 25


          

>>"People treat Hip-Hop like it's a giant living in the
>>hills..."
>>
>>I think kids of today have a right to their version of
>Hip-Hop
>>and it's up to their generation to deem whether or not its
>>timeless. I happen to to think that the great LPs of the
>late
>>80s-early 90s last in the generation that loves them because
>>we're able to dissect it and appreciate...plus we're still
>>largely consumers ourselves.
>
>
>I'll get to that later.
>
>This conversation is basically a run-of-the-mill "how
>important
>is history?" conversation. The Hip Hop component of it is
>secondary.
>
>Literature has this conversation all the time.
>
>Music has it. Art has it.
>
>You have modern visual artists who don't know/don't care
>who Van Gogh was. Art has a way of shaming people into
>respecting the past, tho. I'm not a visual artist, so I can't
>comment on whether or not knowledge of (or appreciation for)
>the past is important to modern success. I do know several
>art historians, and they basically feel like they are the
>reason art is art. And good for them.
>
>Literature seems to have done a nice job of ensuring that
>the canon receives is proper due. And the literature world
>does a nice job of making people recognize where their style
>was born, who influenced it, etc.
>
>Like, "who is the most bitten" is the subject of lots
>of literary criticism. Influence and ontogeny are a part of
>literature. Always has been. Always will be.
>
>Hip-hop seems to be different, in part because "goodness"
>doesn't really appear to have anything to do with talent
>anymore, and that's not an indictment of hip hop more than
>any other modern pop form of music. But it has been stripped,
>long ago, of any meritocracy.
>
>Because progress in hip-hop has zero to do with skill level,
>and so studying the past/respect for the past/knowledge of the
>
>past is less and less important.
>
>Pitchfork liked Chief Keef's album for the same reasons they
>were excited to take him to a gun range -- not because of the
>music, but because he was on house arrest for pointing a gun
>at a police officer.
>
>If a straight-A student from Whitney Young high school in
>Chicago makes the same songs, they don't even get to
>Pitchfork's desk, and if Pitchfork reviews the album, it
>gets horrible reviews.
>
>That was less the case in PE's day -- sure, we liked Chuck
>D's starter hats and all, but honestly they woulda looked
>like a bunch of cornballs if they didn't happen to make some
>of the most magical music ever (any genre).
>
>(We forget that Flavor Flav *always* looked like a dumbass;
>we liked him because the music he was on legitimized his
>look. The music was incredible)
>
>Same with Illmatic -- Nas was perhaps the most normal-looking
>author of great music we had ever seen. Girls in my school
>thought he was "cute" and all, but his image had zero to do
>with why anyone listened to the album.
>
>So yeah -- today we're in an era where the music (and
>listeners)
>are simply dumber and more narcissistic. They don't care
>what the music sounds like. They care about who has a criminal
>
>record. And who makes them feel tough and rich.
>
>This is why the canon doesn't matter.
>
>Because a canon implies that there is something essentially
>good about the music.
>
>I mean, have you ever heard a Wiz Khalifah album? He's a C
>plus
>rapper on his best day (grading on a curve).
>
>A guy like Wale, who I reaaaallly want to like, has "the worst
>
>nigga in Leaders of the New School"-level taent.
>
>These niggas can't rap. They suck, actually. Most of them.
>
>And the kids who do respect the canon, like Joey Bada$$ are
>criticized for 'dickriding the past'.
>
>So the canon is pretty much done. Keef don't need to know KRS
>to shout in a microphone with the skill level of an 8 year
>old
>girl. He eating well off of it, and good for him. Hopefully
>he
>can use the money to build a life that lasts longer than 21
>years.
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it
>you? http://MatchShannon.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"
>
>
>
>
>"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."
>
>(C)Keith Murray, "


(APPLAUSE)

  

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Mash_Comp
Member since Jul 07th 2003
66714 posts
Tue Jan-29-13 02:47 PM

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53. "I can dig it."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>This conversation is basically a run-of-the-mill "how
>important
>is history?" conversation. The Hip Hop component of it is
>secondary.
>

I can see that but it's important to note that all of us (I mean here, really) heap a lot of importance on the "WHAT IS" versus letting folks enjoy what they call Hip-Hop as is. We're policing ears and tastes far too much and again, there's no way PE's LPs don't stay connected to the YOUTHFUL energy of Hip-Hop's core.

>Literature has this conversation all the time.
>
>Music has it. Art has it.
>

I don't disagree with that.

>Hip-hop seems to be different, in part because "goodness"
>doesn't really appear to have anything to do with talent
>anymore, and that's not an indictment of hip hop more than
>any other modern pop form of music. But it has been stripped,
>long ago, of any meritocracy.
>

But to me, that denies the growth and actual realized talent of so many (largely unheralded) acts in the past 5-6 years alone that have recorded great material that we're still never going to have enough time to disgest. It's like, I know the mainstream stuff is mostly awful and kids today connect with it because of the volume, but that doesn't meant they can't be learned.

>Because progress in hip-hop has zero to do with skill level,
>and so studying the past/respect for the past/knowledge of the
>
>past is less and less important.
>

Aside from someone like Edan and maybe a handful of others, looking back doesn't always mean looking forward for enough MCs/artists.

>That was less the case in PE's day -- sure, we liked Chuck
>D's starter hats and all, but honestly they woulda looked
>like a bunch of cornballs if they didn't happen to make some
>of the most magical music ever (any genre).
>

I can't agree with that. I didn't ever get "cornball" from them. I always looked at them as a band with many moving parts, they all had a role to play and each portion of it worked, for whatever magical reason. And if anyone says Chuck D doesn't have bars, they're looking to be dicks about it.

>Same with Illmatic -- Nas was perhaps the most normal-looking
>author of great music we had ever seen. Girls in my school
>thought he was "cute" and all, but his image had zero to do
>with why anyone listened to the album.
>

But then that goes to show you that with focus, anyone can produce quality and the right people will find it. It's all about timing. Illmatic came when it was most necessary, much like It Takes A Nation... did as well.


>And the kids who do respect the canon, like Joey Bada$$ are
>criticized for 'dickriding the past'.
>

He, Edan, and just a handful of others are my glimmers of hope. But yeah, today's young crop of "talent" do not produce timeless tunes.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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Jaymz
Charter member
2263 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 05:08 PM

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29. "I was about to ask, if NATION OF MILLIONS doesn't..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...then what the hell from that era *does*? (The above-mentioned STRAIGHT OUTTA COMPTON, perhaps?)

And who's deciding all this, anyway? Today's fans? Tomorrow's fans? Tomorrow's music writers/critics? Future record label's reissue campaigns?

-----
Get over yourself.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 09:04 PM

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35. "Is there any question Nation >>>> Compton?"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

Like we can all accept that right? We all love and respect both but can clearly say that right?

Just want to get that out of the way.

>...then what the hell from that era *does*? (The
>above-mentioned STRAIGHT OUTTA COMPTON, perhaps?)
y
The thing about Compton is that it primarily works as the yin to Nation's yang. And *THAT* is exactly what was so dope about that time. To think that the lead rapper on that album (Cube not Easy) was so inspired by Nation he went an enlisted the production team to produce his own first classic. That was one of the most amazing things ever and hip-hop to the core. Are these relationships even understood or being passed on or is it all just Fuck the Pollice.

>And who's deciding all this, anyway? Today's fans?
>Tomorrow's fans? Tomorrow's music writers/critics? Future
>record label's reissue campaigns?

For me the most important thing is do the kids that claim hip-hop today feel like they have to know it. The thing for me with the album is that it goes beyond a era defining album to a hip-hop defining one. After it dropped you don't have a hip-hop without it.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Bombastic
Charter member
88872 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 12:51 AM

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38. "no question to me. Nation is clearly better."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>Like we can all accept that right? We all love and respect
>both but can clearly say that right?
>
>Just want to get that out of the way.
>
>>...then what the hell from that era *does*? (The
>>above-mentioned STRAIGHT OUTTA COMPTON, perhaps?)
>y
>The thing about Compton is that it primarily works as the yin
>to Nation's yang. And *THAT* is exactly what was so dope
>about that time. To think that the lead rapper on that album
>(Cube not Easy) was so inspired by Nation he went an enlisted
>the production team to produce his own first classic. That
>was one of the most amazing things ever and hip-hop to the
>core. Are these relationships even understood or being passed
>on or is it all just Fuck the Pollice.
>
>>And who's deciding all this, anyway? Today's fans?
>>Tomorrow's fans? Tomorrow's music writers/critics? Future
>>record label's reissue campaigns?
>
>For me the most important thing is do the kids that claim
>hip-hop today feel like they have to know it. The thing for
>me with the album is that it goes beyond a era defining album
>to a hip-hop defining one. After it dropped you don't have a
>hip-hop without it.
>
>________
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1
>thing, a musician." © Miles
>
>"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9765 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 05:34 AM

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40. "Of course..."
In response to Reply # 38


          

As many killer, classic songs there is on "Straight...", a good half of that record is not in the same league as even the weaker stuff on "It takes a nation...".
It's one thing to have impact and blah-blah, another to make a strong, consistent and coherent *album* and "Straight outta compton" is not that at all IMO. Whatever, I always say this...

  

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Nodima
Member since Jul 30th 2008
15257 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 09:24 AM

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43. "I'm with you."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

I've never really believed the hype on that album, it's half classic half filler to my ears. I prefer Efil4zaggin really.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas
"I don't read pages of rap lyrics, I listen to rap music." © Bombastic
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

  

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forgivenphoenix
Member since Dec 08th 2007
2514 posts
Tue Jul-30-13 03:28 PM

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92. "i feel like invoking Kari (k_orr) when he said"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

'hip-hop is the sh*t you n*ggas don't like'

I didn't always agree or like it when he would say this. Usually because the album or act being discussed flew in the face of my 'good' taste, but it seems apropos here.

if 'Nations..' were 'good' in the classic sense of hip-hop or black popular music sounded like at the time of its release it wouldn't have been:

1. revolutionary (which Nations unapologetically was)

and

2. rebellious (which Nations also was relative to music fans who were mostly in 'our' demographic)

the hip-hop we grew up on and now adore was basically music our parents and traditional music aficionados couldn't stand and lacked any kind of artistic integrity. its poor form to then dis kids for picking up the torch from the mantle we essentially stole and 'recontextualized' from the music our parents reared us on.

basically, if not adhering to standards was ok for us (by sampling and using the framework of older music to make something new and reflective of us.) then it ought to be okay for the new generation to do the same. (to further the notion of music and music culture as removed from responsibility to the 'real world'.)

modern, contemporary music can't on one hand be respectful and yield allegiance to the forces that it was borne out of and edgy and 'in' at the same time.

the kids are supposed to as we may say it '...keep it going, make new shit' (c) Andre 3K

__________________________________________

http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker

  

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TRoyTerry4524
Member since Jul 04th 2008
790 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 05:24 PM

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30. "I'm 20 and when I was younger"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I could only listen to a few PE songs but now I can listen to all their stuff from 88-98, it's great a lot of music is missing that loudness and organized chaos. Himanshu & Mike Finito are the closest thing to PE sounding stuff(just sonically).

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52929 posts
Sun Jan-27-13 05:32 PM

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31. "Props young fella. "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>I could only listen to a few PE songs but now I can listen to
>all their stuff from 88-98, it's great a lot of music is
>missing that loudness and organized chaos. Himanshu & Mike
>Finito are the closest thing to PE sounding stuff(just
>sonically).

I haven't heard of those Himanshu or Mike Finito, will
check it out b/c you mentioned them


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Fructose Soda
Member since Feb 19th 2012
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36. "yeah, u r talkin about Nehru Jackets."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Very underrated album.
I can see why you liken Finito's beats with P.E., although he's said that El-P was his main influence.

  

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PG
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32. ""PICTURE ME GIVING A DAM! I SAID NEVER!""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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34. "best reply so far"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Fructose Soda
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37. "hahaha"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

  

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ninjitsu
Member since Oct 07th 2011
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39. "not if you fire it."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Guinness
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41. "LOL @ people acting like being young is a moral failing."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the album is 25 years old. of course it doesn't have the same power to kids who are literally a generation removed. even though it would be beneficial for everyone if they went back and listened to the record, they have no responsibility to do that (and, considering the anger many people on this site have towards modern rap, a lot of you would be hypocrites for making such a demand).

anyway, of course nation of millions is in the cannon. the same way that albums from sonic youth, my bloody valentine and jane's addiction are for their genres.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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42. "bwahhahaah. aaand aren't u a hip old man!"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          


you be in the mosh pit at the Odd Future shows,
showing everyone that you still got it, bro!

Sad, honestly



----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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Mon Jan-28-13 09:50 AM

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44. "It's not a moral failing. It's an intellectual failing."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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45. "RE: LOL @ people acting like being young is a moral failing."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>the album is 25 years old. of course it doesn't have the same
>power to kids who are literally a generation removed.

not sure why this is an of course.

>even
>though it would be beneficial for everyone if they went back
>and listened to the record

at least we agree on this.

>they have no responsibility to do
>that

the notion of a cannon is that if you consider yourself adept in something, in this case hip-hop, it would behoove you to know these works. responsibility no but denial and dismissal....?

>(and, considering the anger many people on this site have
>towards modern rap, a lot of you would be hypocrites for
>making such a demand).

I don't understand what's hypocritical. Mind you I'm not one of those people but in their defense, if they say your hip-hop sucks you should listen to some PE... what's hypocritical about that?

>anyway, of course nation of millions is in the cannon. the
>same way that albums from sonic youth, my bloody valentine and
>jane's addiction are for their genres.

but here's the big differenece, all three of those bands are being actively listened to by the next generation of the genre fans. PE? that's the question.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Guinness
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48. "man, hip-hop is frigging huge."
In response to Reply # 45
Mon Jan-28-13 10:39 AM by Guinness

  

          

there's a reasonable chance that a 15-year old rap fan has never even heard "nation of millions" played anywhere, which obviously would never have been the case 25 years ago.

there are going to be kids that go back and find older material that appeals to their sensibilities. go to a wu-tang show - the audience is young as fuck. but to believe that excavation would be anything close to the norm flies counter to everything, ever.

WHY WONT THESE IDIOTIC KIDS JUST LISTEN TO BING CROSBY LIKE WE DID

it's cool if older people dislike new rap
it's cool if older people recommend older rap
but "your rap sucks, listen to mine" is not a very good conversation starter

  

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imcvspl
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Mon Jan-28-13 10:49 AM

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49. "I get your point, you didn't address my last part"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

Maybe I'm wrong but...
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Guinness
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50. "who knows?"
In response to Reply # 49
Mon Jan-28-13 11:14 AM by Guinness

  

          

i suspect that the percentage of kids who go back and listen to 25-year old albums is similar, whether they're fans of kings of leon, taylor swift or drake. i disagree that there's anything fundamentally about rap that makes it less respectful of collective history (other than that it's outrageously expansive both sonically and regionally, as opposed to having a direct lineage).

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Mon Jan-28-13 11:17 AM

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51. "Bwwahah you dodging the points, old man"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

>i suspect that the percentage of kids who go back and listen
>to 25-year old albums is similar, whether they're fans of
>kings of leon, taylor swift or drake.

We already made this point-

Its not a Hip Hop problem. Like, half this board already
made this point, irrelevant old man

Just stop and give into your oldness. You get your ass
booted from the young people shows


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Bombastic
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57. "outside of rap-lot of my favorite records were 20-25 years old as a teen"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Any kid that grew up on some variation of Jimi Hendrix, Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, The Stones, The Beatles, Sly Stone, Stevie Wonder, Led Zep, Sabbath, AC/DC, Marvin Gaye, Al Green, Miles Davis, P-Funk, James Brown, Pink Floyd, and so on can say the same.

By high-school and at the latest up thru first year or two of college, that stuff had all found its way into my eardrums and most of it was spread amongst my social circles as well.

I'm sure I'm not alone in that either, most of that shit was pretty easy to find either though radio, uncles, older siblings/cousins, cool friends that knew more shit than you did, etc.

I still loved Nirvana & the like as it came out but I wasn't under some misguided impression that the rock genre was peaking just at the time I happened to be alive.

Anybody that's an avid music fan rather than just a casual listener is gonna go back and check the past to see what they like or don't.

The rap I was listening to growing up obviously skewed more towards what was coming out right in the moment but that's because it hadn't even fully blossomed to its artistic/commercial zenith yet being that it was less than ten years old at the time (and really less than five in terms of being album-driven).

That was one of the most interesting things about it, it was a form of music that was actually created & being expanded upon during the time I actually existed.

Now, that's not really the case. Kids now are literally being born the same year Doggystyle, Illmatic, 36 Chambers were dropping.

They don't even remember a life before this stuff like I don't remember a world where Jimi Hendrix or Bob Marley appeared in the flesh rather than as a poster on a wall.

Rap has almost surely seen it's commercial apex (particularly with the entire music industry exploding into itself) sometime at the end of the 90's bleeding into the early 2000s.

While there's still great shit dropping every year, unlike people our age there's quite a backlog of established classic shit to check in with which was not the case for a kid born in the mid-to-late-70s.

I've actually been surprisingly impressed by how much the teenage kids I speak to actually do know about the rap music of at least the 90's (the late 80's gets a bit trickier, that's begun to feel more like the mid-to-late-50s of rock where folks know Little Richard/Chuck Berry/Elvis/Buddy/etc but nobody's really *listening* to it for pleasure).

I feel better than ever about some of the people I see/hear doing rap shit (as opposed to say, 10 years ago) because at this point it's so obvious there's not much money in it that most of the youngest practitioners are clearly lovers of the craft who did study those old records.

PE, on the other hand, is an odd case.

They were without question *the biggest* group in terms of impact/import during a three-year-period (88-90), at least on the east-coast where the music started & the tastemakers resided at the time.

But they were so strange & anachronistic even in their heyday that you didn't really have people copying them then and nowadays (unlike peers like Slick Rick, Kane, Rakim & even to a degree Too Short) you don't even have folks listening to them at all.

Comparing It Takes A Nation to Loveless, Nothing's Shocking or Daydream Nation isn't a proper parallel.

Those records were college-rock/SpinMag-style curiosities while the vast majority of rock fans in 1988 were knee-deep in Appetite For Destruction.

It Takes A Nation was more like Exile On Main Street, There's A Riot Goin On, The White Album for its genre.

A left turn that became one of the first & biggest early musical statements in hip-hop that now seems on the brink of being forgotten by the majority of it's genres fans nowadays.

Part of that is because of how less-than-stellar a lot of their seemingly endless post-91 musical output has been, another is Flav's becoming a reality sideshow, some of it could be a backlash to their adoption into the rock music circle (hence why their induction to the R&RHOF this year was such a lock even over NWA) and probably more than a little has to do with the dense/layered early Bomb Squad production not even being an option legally nowadays so the youth doesn't have the same ear for it.

But for those reasons & a few others I'm leaving out, PE has went from being looked at as 'our Zeppelin' to more like The Kinks or MC5 in the minds of rap music fans: groups rock fans either know only thru a few of their biggest songs or from reading about their rebellion long after the edges had been sanded down to dust.

That's worth taking notice of and I'm fairly sure the answer is a lot more inscrutable than the facile 'young cat vs old head' or 'they came out 25 years ago' explanation you're offering there.

  

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imcvspl
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58. "Thanks Bomb... you laid it out perfect."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Bombastic
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69. "thank you, brotha. PE's standing is still a bit of a sore subject for me"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

but at the same time I have come to understand & accept it.

I would have never believed you if you told me it would be like this tho back in 1990.

  

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Guinness
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59. "i hear you."
In response to Reply # 57
Wed Jan-30-13 12:39 AM by Guinness

  

          

my major point, which i didn't explain too well, is that hiphop is so much more expansive now than it was in PE's era. it's almost like those groups of the 80s are chuck berry and bo diddley in that the sense that they're sonically foreign to contemporary ears.

if someone likes joey badass and action bronson, they probably would be open to checking out PE. but if you're from houston, your old school investigation might lead you to geto boys and odd squad. or in the bay, it's likely too short, e-40 or mac mall.

kids definitely know wu, mobb, big, jay, nas. i hear that shit all the time too (from cars, in stores, at parties, playing ball, etc). but the 80s shit is just not present like that. even classics like "eric b is president" and "half-steppin'" have largely been filtered out of the typical DJ's old school medley in favor of "luchini," "whoa" and other 90s records.

  

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Bombastic
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60. "RE: i hear you."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

>my major point, which i didn't explain too well, is that
>hiphop is so much more expansive now than it was in PE's era.
>it's almost like those groups of the 80s are chuck berry and
>bo diddley in that the sense that they're sonically foreign to
>contemporary ears.

There's definitely a degree of Chuck Berry/Bo Diddley with those 80's acts, however Run-DMC or even the Beasties are older than PE & still gets some run.

Ra, Kane, even KRS still will have a joint pop up here & there.

PE you don't even hear in an old-school mix on Hot 97 or out here on a retro-rap station like KDAY.

Their music, specifically, almost inhabits a different universe that's no longer commonly associated with hip-hop.

When you contrast that with what their status was at the time, I can't think of any act even close to having a bigger disparity in that regard.

>if someone likes joey badass and action bronson, they probably
>would be open to checking out PE. but if you're from houston,
>your old school investigation might lead you to geto boys and
>odd squad. or in the bay, it's likely too short, e-40 or mac
>mall.
>
>kids definitely know wu, mobb, big, jay, nas. i hear that shit
>all the time too (from cars, in stores, at parties, playing
>ball, etc). but the 80s shit is just not present like that.
>even classics like "eric b is president" and "half-steppin'"
>have largely been filtered out of the typical DJ's old school
>medley in favor of "luchini," "whoa" and other 90s records.

Agreed, 'old school' has become 'shit we played in high school/college', in keeping with the 20-year-cycle (our generation fetishized the 70's in music, fashion, even movies while these kids are now starting to get real '90's' with it).

But even during the 80's rehashes on the rock side (Strokes) or rap side (Cool Kids), I never heard/saw Public Enemy as a reference point.

Closest recent 'PE' type of record came from a dude closer to our age (Killa Mike) and was really more in the vein of AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted so still one step removed.

Again, there's reasons for that.....but they go beyond the usual 'passing of time' explanation.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Wed Jan-30-13 08:51 AM

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62. "Much of it has to do with sample-laws IMO"
In response to Reply # 57


          

PE's *music* got a lot of props for being this creative, post-modern avantgarde collage thing, the act that utilized sampling in the most creative way etc.

After the laws became harder on sampling etc., the sound of Hip-Hop changed almost by necessity and as a result, the ties to PE's sound became cut off.

There's also the fast tempo of many of their songs (I've noticed that a lot of younger Hip-Hop fans don't like fast beats in the 80's-early 90's sense) as well as their image/lyrics and the way they have been embraced by the rock-establishment as you said and other shit as well.

Basically, just a lot of things that combined fuck it up for them. While Rakim and BDK are starting to become Diddley/Berry-figures, their styles of rapping and even beats feel more current. And I think Run DMC-datedness aside-made MUCH more accessible and "inclusive" music in retrospect.

PE almost feel like a Rush/(early)Yes/ELP-type of act; the type of acts that managed to go platinum and even have hits in their time while making music that in retrospect seem very inaccessible even to genre-fans...

  

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Bombastic
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68. "agreed, that was one of the big ones on my list"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

>PE's *music* got a lot of props for being this creative,
>post-modern avantgarde collage thing, the act that utilized
>sampling in the most creative way etc.
>
>After the laws became harder on sampling etc., the sound of
>Hip-Hop changed almost by necessity and as a result, the ties
>to PE's sound became cut off.
>
>There's also the fast tempo of many of their songs (I've
>noticed that a lot of younger Hip-Hop fans don't like fast
>beats in the 80's-early 90's sense) as well as their
>image/lyrics and the way they have been embraced by the
>rock-establishment as you said and other shit as well.
>
>Basically, just a lot of things that combined fuck it up for
>them. While Rakim and BDK are starting to become
>Diddley/Berry-figures, their styles of rapping and even beats
>feel more current. And I think Run DMC-datedness aside-made
>MUCH more accessible and "inclusive" music in retrospect.
>
>PE almost feel like a Rush/(early)Yes/ELP-type of act; the
>type of acts that managed to go platinum and even have hits in
>their time while making music that in retrospect seem very
>inaccessible even to genre-fans...
>

  

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GumDrops
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70. "i think its also to do with rap's subsequent direction"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

i.e. gangsta rap won, basically

PE look too right-on now - rap is too jaded and nihilist to really look back too fondly at a group like PE

NWA however are the godfathers of today's popular rappers - rick ross, chief keef and so on

the artists that PE influenced are much fewer (i can only think of EL-P, big juss, guys like brother ali and so on), even though there was a time in the late 90s/early 00s when it seemed like PE songs were getting covered or sampled by various new rappers, though even then its the first PE album that seemed to be the main reference point, i.e. pre-politics, kinda like how a lot of rappers (well im thinking of old Q&As with NORE and juvenile, though they wouldnt be likely to pick anything else) seem to cite criminal minded above and over by all means necessary

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Thu Jan-31-13 07:02 AM

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71. "Actually, ''Yo! Bumrush..."..."
In response to Reply # 70


          

...is probably the PE-album that holds up the best today sonically. That doesn't mean that *I* think it's their best, just that the post-Rubin/pre-Golden age sound that that album (and "Criminal minded" too as well as stuff like Just Ice and Schooly D) has souns a bit more modern in its combination of hard sparseness and slight fragments of melody IMO. Of course, it's still not the sound of 2013 but it's somewhat more current relatively speaking than the sampling free-for-all type of albums...

  

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GumDrops
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72. "its the most conservative album of theirs"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

and i dont mean that as a slight, its one of my favourite PE albums, but its def the most 'normal' sounding album they did....

  

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Bombastic
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79. "yup-the minimalism of SchoolyD/Criminal Minded/Born To Mack hold up well"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

'Dope Fiend Beat', 'Bridge Is Over', 'PSK' still go hard.

And personally I've listened to an 'M.P.E.' or 'Public Enemy #1' in recent years far more often than any song from Fear Of A Black Planet, even though I couldn't say Bum Rush is actually a better album than the two that followed.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Fri Feb-01-13 09:28 PM

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80. "Fear... has aged the worst IMO..."
In response to Reply # 79


          

While *I* dig it-seriously, what knocks harder than ''Brothers gonna work it out''?-much of it almost feels more like some industrial, Meat beat manifesto or whatever-time-typical noisy industrial/electronica in *vibe* (not necessarily sound)-it's just SO far removed from Hip-Hop as it turned out. "It takes..." meanwhile at least has some semblance to classic, old school Hip-Hop...

  

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Bombastic
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81. "agree completely, now that u mention it 1990 as a whole has aged poorly"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

compared to any other year than any other late-80's or early-to-mid-90's year in music that surrounds it.

Any act whose cultural/creative apex happened in that year seemed to become huge almost-overnight and fell off commercially even faster.

And not even the obvious stuff in the Vanilla Ice, Wilson Phillips, Warrant, Technotronic, NKOTB, C + C Muisc Factory, Roxette, Snap type of vein.

Public Enemy were in their transition from 'scary' to 'important' quickly followed by 'irrelevant'.

Sinead O'Connor blew up & then lit herself on fire shortly thereafter.

Countless acts billed to have some degree of 'import' (Lisa Stansfield, Soul II Soul, Neneh Cherry, Concrete Blonde, Bell Biv Devoe, Midnight Oil, James, Monie Love, Dee-Lite, DIgital Underground) were put on the back-burner soon after.

Disappointing follow-up records abounded (Taste Of Chocolate, Ritual De Lo Habitual, Funhouse, Time's Up, Private Times & The Whole 9, 100 MIles & Runnin).

Just an odd transitional year which seemed like something kinda big at the time but not much that people care or remember today relatively speaking.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Sat Feb-02-13 01:54 AM

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82. "Yes, it was a pretty bad year overall..."
In response to Reply # 81


          

...as a fan of metal, there are a couple of more albums I dig (¤most notably Entombed's debut but also Slayer and Megadeth did strong albums to various degrees as well as bands that's too obscure to mention here without sounding like a namedropping asshole). However, even there, it's not comparable with 89 IMO and actually pretty bad overall...

Ice Cube did the best Hip-Hop album but otherwise, I'm kind of drawing blanks on stuff that was awesome that year; an act like ATCQ's debut was fresh *then* but their next two albums were so superior that I barely think of their debut today outside of a few obvious songs even if it's good. EPMD was dope but I remember it as a 91 album (actually, my copy even says 91 on it; maybe it came out earlier in USA)...

BTW, Neneh was much earlier than that, maybe it dropped later in USA but as a swede, I think it dropped in 88-89 or something

  

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Bombastic
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83. "RE: Yes, it was a pretty bad year overall..."
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

>...as a fan of metal, there are a couple of more albums I dig
>(¤most notably Entombed's debut but also Slayer and Megadeth
>did strong albums to various degrees as well as bands that's
>too obscure to mention here without sounding like a
>namedropping asshole). However, even there, it's not
>comparable with 89 IMO and actually pretty bad overall...
>
>Ice Cube did the best Hip-Hop album but otherwise, I'm kind of
>drawing blanks on stuff that was awesome that year; an act
>like ATCQ's debut was fresh *then* but their next two albums
>were so superior that I barely think of their debut today
>outside of a few obvious songs even if it's good. EPMD was
>dope but I remember it as a 91 album (actually, my copy even
>says 91 on it; maybe it came out earlier in USA)...
>
Yeah, Cube killed it tho despite its success he quickly retreated from that sound.

>BTW, Neneh was much earlier than that, maybe it dropped later
>in USA but as a swede, I think it dropped in 88-89 or
>something

You're right, it was more like mid-89 for us (tho she was still working the album here in 90) but I guess I was thinking of that Cole Porter Red Hot & Blue joint by putting her in that year.

  

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GumDrops
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84. "does it have to sound in tune with hip hop as it turned out?"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

>While *I* dig it-seriously, what knocks harder than
>''Brothers gonna work it out''?-much of it almost feels more
>like some industrial, Meat beat manifesto or
>whatever-time-typical noisy industrial/electronica in *vibe*
>(not necessarily sound)-it's just SO far removed from Hip-Hop
>as it turned out. "It takes..." meanwhile at least has some
>semblance to classic, old school Hip-Hop...

i agree, its not really much like what else was going on then or since, but fight the power still hits hard, and fear... IS PE taking rap into an almost prog-rap place, but i think we dont let rappers/producers do that enough. obv with hip hop theres the thing of basics being what make it hip hop, but rappers should be allowed to go against that too - and i think pe did a good job of trying to keep it hip-hop, keep it funky and making it progressive at the same time (though yeah they did def overload it at times - even terrordome which i love is almost bloated at times).

i think outkast were the last true inheritors of PEs prog-rap mantle actually, and i had the same feelings about them even from aquemini onwards, that their records were becoming too dense and overlayered for their own good. speakerboxxx was their worst record in that sense, but you could see the seeds of that approach going wrong a few albums before. PE at least stripped it back a lot for apocalypse (before getting it very wrong on muse-sick lol) but i wouldnt have minded seeing how far they would have taken it, even if it would have meant them losing even more touch with 'regular' hip hop and the man on the street they were desperate to keep in touch with. they should have gotten more remixes over the years from other producers like with shut em down.

  

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Luke Cage
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90. "I Like Your Kinks & MC5 Analogy"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

I think that's the best comparison I've seen so far of PE. Maybe even throw in the Ramones. The funny thing is I think Chuck is probably very cool with that.

  

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Buck
Member since Feb 15th 2005
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46. "Also, it's "CANON." "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This is a "cannon": http://azcapitoltimes.com/files/2012/12/cannon.jpg

  

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cbk
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52. "Been trying to get my teenage step bro into it"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Don't know if it has sunk in with him yet.

It was easy for him to "get" straight outta Compton cuz Dre is still in popular discourse.

But chuck/flav/bomb squad is a harder sell. What's the latest big thing from any one of them..."flavor of love"???

Whereas Dre's name was even all over the GKMC talk. 50, em, snoop, chronic, nwa...there's a visible line that still leads to SOC.




D'ANGELO beat tape PART 2: https://chrisp.bandcamp.com/album/dangelo-beat-tape-2020

IPHONE LP2 “A beatmaker who loved” https://music.apple.com/us/album/a-beatmaker-who-loved/1473644375

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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54. "This makes me feel like it has to be incentivized :("
In response to Reply # 52
Tue Jan-29-13 02:53 PM by imcvspl

  

          

There's no modern relevant incentive to digest PE. That plays into the fun aspect mentioned above, YOLO and all that. It's very interesting I must say.

Then again I have to say that it may not be much different. Like in the older eras we had the incentive to digest older music, because there might be sample gems hidden within. Hmmmmm.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Mash_Comp
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55. "When I worked for this one website, I had this huge debate..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...about whether or not young persons coming up should study "style masters" or classic Hip-Hop LPs of the 80s and 90s. I used to truly believe that you get sharp by acknowledging the root and that it doesn't always mean it will yield a derivative sound. My hope, always, has been folks will go back to the root and create something fresh on top of it...isn't that how much of art is examined and developed?

Now, I love it when someone like Edan brings about that old sound I still covet but he hasn't released a proper project since 2005 and tours off that small body of work extensively. He made timeless product, however, based on his study and you can sense the sincerity of it.

But again, as much as I love music nerd crap like anyone else, I realize the kids need to have their season of discovery too. Maybe they'll look around at the landscape and find that what their generation produces isn't sufficient and it makes them study. But are Hip-Hop listeners a typically studious bunch? That's what I've always wondered. Here, in this space, it's apparent we have thinkers but by and large I've found it's rare.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

  

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GumDrops
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61. "of course. think about who is in charge now in the media."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

its guys who were young when run dmc and PE were new. theyre hip hop heads. they wull see to it that pe stays on top like sgt peppers has done all these years..

although

there is illmatic.

i think illmatic will end up being seen as the quintessential classic rap album.

possibly more so than nation.

  

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AnonymousCoward
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63. "When is the last time YOU listened to PE?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The shit is so sonically jarring and abrasive. I used to love it, but I could happily never listen to that LP again.

http://clydefrazierapproves.com/
http://stylepoints.tumblr.com/

"Like 4 out of 5 things you say on OKP offend me." -FireBrand

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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64. "RE: When is the last time YOU listened to PE?"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

>The shit is so sonically jarring and abrasive. I used to love
>it

that is why i love it

  

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stylez dainty
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67. "It wouldn't win a poll on this website"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Let alone the Source's Best Rap Album of All Time list it topped back in 98 or so.

----
I check for: Serengeti, Zeroh, Open Mike Eagle, Jeremiah Jae, Moka Only.

  

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self_ish
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73. "Chuck D sounds like the rapping version of MLK..."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-31-13 01:20 PM by self_ish

          

That's the sentiment I've heard from younger folks with regards to P.E. Preachy and loud. Chuck just *sounds* old school, even when compared to his contemporaries. Plus while Rakim, Kane, G-Rap, NWA, etc. look(ed) like hustlers, P.E. looked like...Black Panthers. They're a tough sell man.

To answer your question though, it'll stay in the canon because it earned its place and history can't simply be erased. Will it become severely overlooked as time goes on? Possibly. But is that really the fault of the youth and future generations? Is there a slight possibility that this album that we belove(d) isn't quite as sonically timeless as we feel it is?

  

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Garhart Poppwell
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74. "RE: only to young niggers with no sense of self"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

the reason it's jarring is because that's how it was designed to be, it isn't a byproduct of failed intentions

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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GumDrops
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75. "some of it is kinda dated, truth be told"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

it can sound a bit cluttered (i like that however), and its also missing a lot of the raw marley marl style breaks we associate with classic golden age hip hop too. the whole rockier sonics prob dont help either - it doesnt sound tight in the way other rap records back then, or bum rush the show even, did then.

this idea that they didnt influence artists of that era though is false - everyone from 3rd bass to cypress hill would say they were listening to what PE did in terms of multiple samples and took it on board.

  

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Reuben
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77. "if Fred Hampton was 20yr old today"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

he'd be put in a mad house

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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GumDrops
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76. "also, chuck has long made being in rock critics' good books"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

a central motivation. which is a good aim all in all, as not many rap groups care about anyone outside rap, but i wonder if this has hurt him in the eyes of rap fans (same as cypress really).

  

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Reuben
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78. "Picasso mastered draught and water colour before he made his abstracts."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

  

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Getyohandouttamypocket
Member since Oct 03rd 2010
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85. "RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This is still my all-time favorite hip-hop album.

Such strength, wisdom, and knowledge throughtout the whole production.

All the completion of the album, I feel like I can pick up a core of the planet.

  

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imcvspl
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86. "RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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87. "RE: Will "It Takes A Nation..." Stay in the Hip-Hop Cannon?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Tue Jul-30-13 02:29 PM

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88. "yes, until someone lights the fuse."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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89. "yes it will and it is a important album, however"
In response to Reply # 0


          

PE didn't evolve into the 90's and the way styles and acts changed, they have been pushed to another era of music making.

IMO i Chuck D,Falvor Flav or Griff had have have had solo careers say to what Wu tang had then History would look more favorable over time on them.

PE gets almost forgotten because the music scene and vibe changed drastically just from PE to NWA, nevermind the 90's.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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Luke Cage
Member since Dec 14th 2005
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91. "It Will Always Be a Critical Favorite"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Because it was so different from anything that was going on at the time. The production, Chuck's rhyme style, the whole imagery with the S1W's, etc. I think as long as you tell the story of Hip Hop Nations and PE will have to be brought up. I don't think it's really a big deal that "kids" today don't necessarily reference PE or Nations or try and emulate them or their sound. It's a different time and if they did try and do that I think we would get much more Dead Prez or The Coup than PE. PE was unique in every way. At that time Chuck was old at what like 26 to be starting to rap. They had a whole image and plan about what PE was going to be. Someone should have brought them up in your post about Rappers as characters because they had one of the greatest images in the history of pop music. Flav the crown prince, Chuck as the leader, Griff as the minister of Information. Chuck wasn't your classic battle MC who was trying to devour other rappers. They had a whole different agenda than say Leaders Of The New School or Ultramagnetic. I honestly don't think PE could happen in any other time than when it did. If some kids today tried to form a new age PE I think plenty of older cats would frown upon them in a "what do these kids know about revolution?" kind of way. In fact I remember some backlash from some Civil rights aged Black folks during the height of Hip Hop's Pro Black era and they were basically being very critical of folks like KRS, PE and PRT saying that they don't know the real struggle that they had to go through and they are just taking bits and pieces of Malcolm or the Panthers and turning it into T-shirts and slogans. I honestly don't want another PE because I think in this day and age it wouldn't go over very well. Nations will always get praised and so will PE from social and music critics and they will always have a kind of rebel attachment to them for their image, things they said and even that logo which is iconic to this day. I'd much rather have that everyman approach of say Common, Lupe or even Killer Mike. Dudes that might have something to say about social or political ideas but also want to have a good time, call out "fuck boys" or just rip the mic. PE to me is a moment in time. To make a sports analogy (which I love to do) PE is like Jim Brown and someone like say Murs or Common is like Magic Johnson. Jim Brown was much more in your face with his approach because of the era that he came from but Magic in his own right is making revolutionary moves but just doing it from a different generation and perspective than someone Jim Brown's age.

  

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SoWhat
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93. "FOABP > ITANOMTHUB"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i'm 37. i first heard 'Fight the Power' in a movie theater the week Do the Right Thing came out.

i've always preferred Fear. i understand the importance of Nation to H-H and it seems most fans prefer Nation. but my ears like Fear more.

that wasn't the question asked here. yeah, Nation stays in the canon.

fuck you.

  

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