who is the one producer that all beatmakers agree, changed the beatmaking game, similar to how rakim changed the mc game

is it marley marl?

life always offers you a 2nd chance...it's called tomorrow. use it wisely

I know that's taking the easy way out, but it's true.

_________________

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

this

i wasnt around during his heyday
but doing the family tree of sounds of people i do like
From Premo to Dilla
From Ye to ALC
From EL-P to Oddisee

they were directly and indirectly influenced by Marley
its like In Control Vol turned on the switch
everyone else evolved the sound
modernized it...explored it....pushed it
but Marley may be the Frank Lloyd Wright of modern hip hop production

______________________________________

Navem nu, cuando sol
Tutu nu, vondo nos nu
Vita em, no continous non
Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen

When the sun shades the ship
We sweat and life is not safe
To swim or to touch not
When we unite we hedge amen

cuz paul c took choppin'
the sample to the next level
true, marley discovered choppin'
and samplin' drum bits
but his production was still mostly
just breaks and stabs
paul c chopped and reconstructed the sample
to where you really didn't know he redid it
see skullsnap drums
he freaked on stezo's it's my turn

life always offers you a 2nd chance...it's called tomorrow. use it wisely

I love how Marley got everybody believing that he discovered drum chopping! NONSENSE. I'll just give one example; Art of Noise, Beat Box from 1983. That's a Hip-Hop song, too! Trevor Horn sampled the outtake drum tracks from his sessions with Yes for "Owner Of A Lonely Heart". WAY before Marley Marl. We won't even get into how Biz and BDK have said they came with main samples and programming on some of their "Marley produced" classics!

>I love how Marley got everybody believing that he discovered
>drum chopping! NONSENSE. I'll just give one example; Art of
>Noise, Beat Box from 1983. That's a Hip-Hop song, too!

it's not a Hip Hop song for one thing


>Trevor
>Horn sampled the outtake drum tracks from his sessions with
>Yes for "Owner Of A Lonely Heart". WAY before Marley Marl.

that's a sampled break, not chopped drums


>We
>won't even get into how Biz and BDK have said they came with
>main samples and programming on some of their "Marley
>produced" classics!

Marley has said this himself, he oversaw some things and tightened up stuff that other people did
also he gives young producers monthly checks to bring him stuff chopped up for him to put his spin on and put together

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>it's not a Hip Hop song for one thing

How in the hell do you figure that! How old are you, dude? Every B-boy or popper/bopper/locker in the country was getting down to or ghetto blasting that record when it came out! You do realize that a Hip-Hop record doesn't have to be MADE by Hip-Hop heads, right? Are "The Mexican" or "Electric Kingdom" or "Apache" also not Hip-hop songs? Please!

Also, from the wiki page on "Beat Box"
"The track, one of the world's very first and most influential Hip-Hop hits intended as an instrumental,"

>
>that's a sampled break, not chopped drums

Oh really? Where from? Trevor Horn has stated in interviews that he and his team sampled the Yes drum outtakes with the Fairlight sampler, so what are you talking about? You can easily hear that when you listen to the break in "Owner Of A Lonely Heart". Again, look at the Wikipedia page on Beat Box. It even says there "the beat (a sample of drums played by Alan White)", who was Yes' drummer.
>

>Marley has said this himself, he oversaw some things and
>tightened up stuff that other people did
>also he gives young producers monthly checks to bring him
>stuff chopped up for him to put his spin on and put together

Which only backs up my point that Marley is not the great innovator he makes himself out to be. He's Dr. Dre in the 80's

>How in the hell do you figure that! How old are you, dude?
>Every B-boy or popper/bopper/locker in the country was getting
>down to or ghetto blasting that record when it came out! You
>do realize that a Hip-Hop record doesn't have to be MADE by
>Hip-Hop heads, right? Are "The Mexican" or "Electric Kingdom"
>or "Apache" also not Hip-hop songs? Please!
>

first off I'm old enough to ear cornbread without choking
second of all I was thinking of the wrong song so I won't go any further than that on the subject


>Oh really? Where from? Trevor Horn has stated in interviews
>that he and his team sampled the Yes drum outtakes with the
>Fairlight sampler, so what are you talking about? You can
>easily hear that when you listen to the break in "Owner Of A
>Lonely Heart". Again, look at the Wikipedia page on Beat Box.
>It even says there "the beat (a sample of drums played by Alan
>White)", who was Yes' drummer.
>>

I know what the song consists of, but apparently you don't know the difference between a drum break and a chopped break


>Which only backs up my point that Marley is not the great
>innovator he makes himself out to be. He's Dr. Dre in the
>80's

Dr. Dre was the Dr. Dre of the 8o's, fuck that shit
Marley IS an innovator and if you can't see how then I'm not really seeing the point of discussing it further

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>
>I know what the song consists of, but apparently you don't
>know the difference between a drum break and a chopped break

I know that Beat Box consists of chops and hits of Alan White drums track sequenced on a Fairlight using Page R locked to a DMX. It's so obvious it's separate kick, snare and fills being sequenced, not a whole fucking break like Substitution on Ultra's Ego Trippin'. This is not just my ear, but its what J.J. Jeczalik from Art of Noise says he did. Do some research! The song is the ORIGIN of Art of Noise! You seriously trying to tell me this is only a BREAK?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyGdk23KNU

>
>Dr. Dre was the Dr. Dre of the 8o's, fuck that shit
>Marley IS an innovator and if you can't see how then I'm not
>really seeing the point of discussing it further

Then cool. Like I said, Marley used OTHER PEOPLE'S SHIT as his own (like Dre, hence the reference, except Marley didn't credit or pay anybody), and claimed to have created drum chopping which he DID NOT DO. I proved it, it's not debatable, unless you you want to argue that '83 when the original "Beat Box" came out is after '85 when Marley "discovered and innovated" drum chopping with "The Bridge". Go ahead and keep believing what you want.

Marley didn't get his stuff off studio outtakes, he got them off records
THATS where he's the innovator here, nobody had ever thought of doing that shit before he did it
most people know studio engineer niggas was sampling reels as far back as the 6o's, Marley showed everybody that couldn't do that how they could do it in their house
in fact most of his records were made in a fucking section 8 apt and he got that shit to sound the way he did out of that dirty ass free electric?
stop it

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

>Marley didn't get his stuff off studio outtakes, he got them
>off records
>THATS where he's the innovator here, nobody had ever thought
>of doing that shit before he did it
>most people know studio engineer niggas was sampling reels as
>far back as the 6o's, Marley showed everybody that couldn't do
>that how they could do it in their house
>in fact most of his records were made in a fucking section 8
>apt and he got that shit to sound the way he did out of that
>dirty ass free electric?
>stop it

Red herring, anyone? Who cares if it was off records or reels? A sample source is a sample source. That's the big point you think I missed? GTFOH.

The point I made is that Marley did NOT invent drum sampling/chopping. Wherever I read about this "innovation", almost no one bothers to mention the source or format of the sample, records or reel, just the supposed innovation of "modern drum sampling" as a whole. I am saying that particular accolade is not deserved because it's NOT HISTORICALLY ACCURATE. Besides, Marley "discovered" that at Unique, a PRO recording studio, off REELS of Captain Rock, which he was remixing, THEN he went back home to Queensbridge and made "The Bridge".

Let me be clear. I grew up listening to, and LOVING virtually everything Marley Marl produced, from The Bridge to Chief Rocka and everything in between. But time has revealed that he didn't do it all alone, and I already knew that the sampling thing was nonsense because I'm up on my ZTT/Trevor Horn/Art of Noise history because they are musical heroes of mine.

So now I will stop, because it's clear we're just going to disagree here.

Just to throw a lil clarity in here, the break that you hear on "Owner..." which was also sampled by Art Of Noise (from "Owner..." as you say, on which they sampled the horns) is from "Kool Is Back" by Funk Inc, just sped up on 45.


>Let me be clear. I grew up listening to, and LOVING virtually
>everything Marley Marl produced, from The Bridge to Chief
>Rocka and everything in between. But time has revealed that he
>didn't do it all alone, and I already knew that the sampling
>thing was nonsense because I'm up on my ZTT/Trevor Horn/Art of
>Noise history because they are musical heroes of mine.
>
>So now I will stop, because it's clear we're just going to
>disagree here.

Twitter.com/djRBI
Instagram.com/DJ_RBI

"I'm That Guy", Mike G (J Beez)

Untrue, It's just the horns. Also not the When The Levee Breaks drums by Led Zep., as I've read in comments sections elsewhere. They are Alan White drums. Trevor Horn himself has stated this here: (scroll down to "The Birth Of rap" section, 4th paragraph:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/trevorhorn.htm

Also mentioned on the wiki page for J.J. Jeczalik, who actually sampled and programmed the beat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Jeczalik

And as a side note, even if that was true, it STILL means that Marley wasn't the first to sample drums, whether off reels or RECORDS.

Yo, the break is "Kool Is Back". He may have played over'em or maybe they're talking about the rest of the actual song, but the sample in there is from Funk Inc. He may have even flipped them a little, but the sample is still "Kool is Back". I've heard these songs countless times and my ears are pretty keen on familiar breaks.

Listen to "Get Into It" by Big Daddy Kane and listen to "Kool Is Back". Same break. Throw it on 45, it's the same sounds (drums included) as the Yes joint. Unless Alan White played in Funk Inc, he didn't play that break.

Plus Marley didn't claim to be the first to sample a mere drum break (UTFO had already used "Big Beat" on "Roxanne...", for example), he just recalled sampling an individual hit (a snare if I recall correctly) and concluded from there that he could now take drum hits from his favorite breaks and program new patterns w/ those drum sounds (or combine them w/ sounds from other breaks). No one is hip-hop was doing that.

>Untrue, It's just the horns. Also not the When The Levee
>Breaks drums by Led Zep., as I've read in comments sections
>elsewhere. They are Alan White drums. Trevor Horn himself has
>stated this here: (scroll down to "The Birth Of rap" section,
>4th paragraph:
>
>http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/trevorhorn.htm
>
>Also mentioned on the wiki page for J.J. Jeczalik, who
>actually sampled and programmed the beat:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Jeczalik
>
>And as a side note, even if that was true, it STILL means that
>Marley wasn't the first to sample drums, whether off reels or
>RECORDS.
>
>

Twitter.com/djRBI
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"I'm That Guy", Mike G (J Beez)

>Yo, the break is "Kool Is Back". He may have played over'em
>or maybe they're talking about the rest of the actual song,
>but the sample in there is from Funk Inc. He may have even
>flipped them a little, but the sample is still "Kool is Back".
>I've heard these songs countless times and my ears are pretty
>keen on familiar breaks. .


I guess either you didn't read the Sound on Sound article I posted, or you just want to believe what you think your ears are telling you, as opposed to what the producer of the record stated plainly. Tell me exactly WHY the likes of TREVOR fucking HORN would need to conceal or lie about a damn breakbeat! Hilarious! Look dog, if you want to get technical about it, just from the different room sound throughout the drums on Beat Box you can tell it's not from Kool Is Back. You say on Beat Box the drums are pitched higher, at 45. Check your ears, the snare on Beat Box is LOWER pitched, not higher. Also it's a fuller snare than on Kool Is Back, which has way more ring in it's snare! You also say the "break" on Owner Of A Lonely Heart is from Kool Is Back. You need to listen closer, this is absolutely NOT Funk INC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ELpmmeT69cE#t=275s

THIS is Funk Inc. Listen to the timbre of the kick and snare especially. HIGHER pitched than Owner OR Beat Box and farther back in the mix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3lf7I0YeNRs#t=107s

And no amount of tweaking on 1983 outboard gear is going to make Kool Is Back sound like Owner or Beat Box. You're confusing the fact that these records all have a lot of room sound in the recording of all these drums for them being the same, and they are not.

Also, the drums on Beat Box are obviously programmed, not a break! The sounds cut off, the beat is mechanical, not played by a human then sampled! And why? Because, as stated by Trevor Horn in the article, they are Alan White drum outtakes from the Yes 90125/Owner sessions chopped into INDIVIDUAL HITS and PROGRAMMED by J.J. Jeczalik, one the founders of Art of Noise with a Fairlight sampler and Page R sequencer using Conductor to lock to a drum machine (Linn Drum). This is for a HIP-HOP record, using drum chopping, 2 YEARS before Marley Marl. Not sampling breaks, PROGRAMMING individual hits and chops, which Marley says he did first.

So Trevor Horn and J.J. Jeczalik are lying to protect their "digger's secret", "Kool Is Back"? LOLOLOL.You're up on breaks are you? I spent the late 80's up until the late 90's digging non-stop. A collection of a few thousand records. I've traded with, and know personally giants of digging like Beni B and Supreme La Rock and put them up on stuff, as they did with me (Way more of them putting me on, of course!). I've sat with producers and engineers possessing golden ears, like my dude Vitamin D in the studio soaking up audio engineering and mixing techniques. Listen to the SOUNDS. They are not the same! It's not a simple matter of flipping it to 45! The fills aren't the same at all, especially at the beginning and in the breakdown of "Owner"! Listen to the playing!

One more thing, then I give up. You also stated that Big Beat was used by UTFO for Roxanne Roxanne. Again, wrong. Those are programmed drums from a drum machine. Once again, listen closer:

UTFO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KOTp3-jEMjQ

BIG BEAT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TcQYgrm6Vv0#t=9s

Similar SOUNDING, yes!
Actual SAMPLE? NO!

>Plus Marley didn't claim to be the first to sample a mere drum
>break (UTFO had already used "Big Beat" on "Roxanne...", for
>example), he just recalled sampling an individual hit (a snare
>if I recall correctly) and concluded from there that he could
>now take drum hits from his favorite breaks and program new
>patterns w/ those drum sounds (or combine them w/ sounds from
>other breaks). No one is hip-hop was doing that.

Which, AGAIN, is the exact same thing that was done to obtain the drums for "Beat Box", just from reels of outtakes rather than a record! Those drums, regardless whether you believe the proofs I've presented about the sample source are PROGRAMMED INDIVIDUAL HITS THAT WERE SAMPLED, THEN SEQUENCED. Same as Marley for "The Bridge", but 2 years earlier, for a classic HIP-HOP (albeit instrumental) RECORD.

You can tell I'm really fucking bored, right? But this is a pet peeve of mine, and lastly, just because something's posted on whosampled.com, doesn't mean it's true.

The type of communication that can get get confusing on a message board leads to debates that go in this type of direction. Lemme clarify: when I referenced "Beat Box" I was just talking about the horn stab which was sampled and manipulated -- played -- on a keyboard by Art of Noise. I'm agreeing w/ you that they likely got THEIR sample from Yes' "Owner..." during the lil "breaks" that play during "Owner...".

I wasn't arguing that Art Of Noise sampled drums from Funk Inc. I dunno where the hell they snatched their drum hits from. They coulda been live for all I know.

I was talking about the fact that the samples that can be heard on "Owner..." come from Funk Inc's "Kool Is Back". Its clear to anyone w/ an ear for these things. I might have to pinpoint exactly what parts on both songs to show you (I've been posting from my phone, so I haven't been motivated to go too deep w/ youtube clips).

Side note, I don't negate what Trevor Horn says about what he did on the song, its just that things may have gotten lost in translation, meaning that he may have played drums on the main parts of "Owner..." but he didn't play that break. That's Funk Inc.

The Roxanne/UTFO thing was close enough to make a wrong call on, I realized that when I said it, but I didn't sweat it. But I stand by everything else I said. Including Marley's story. Cause noone in hip-hop did it before him w/ a known break, a discovery for him which revolutionized hip-hop ever since.

Twitter.com/djRBI
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"I'm That Guy", Mike G (J Beez)

You don't know me personally, so you can chill with the mild condescension on the "digging" thing. I got a pretty decent rep in my area for having a ton of wax from back when I was an adolescent. Lol. I will never claim to be Jazzy Jay or Bambaataa w/ the breaks, but I'm not too shabby.

Peace though. Its still Funk Inc.

Twitter.com/djRBI
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"I'm That Guy", Mike G (J Beez)

I'll say that if it's not Funk Inc, then they went thru some lengths to mimic that break cause it always sounded to me like they took the break and played with it on a sampling keyboard. Its ridiculously similar aside from the manipulation. Even Quest seems to concur:

http://musicportals.biz/nahp/artic-en/Owner%20of%20a%20Lonely%20Heart

According to Questlove, drummer in The Roots, "Owner of a Lonely Heart" contained the first use of a sample as a breakbeat (as opposed to a sound effect). Yes incorporated five seconds of Funk, Inc.'s "Kool Is Back" (1972), itself a cover of Kool & the Gang's "Kool Is Back".

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"I'm That Guy", Mike G (J Beez)

i love how people try to downplay legendary accomplishments

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

In Hip-Hop circa late '80s it is. Just look at EPMD's first album. They brought in all the records to sample, and the engineer hooked them up, because Parrish and Erick didn't know how to use a sampler. What is "Ain't No Half Steppin" without "Blind Alley" or the horn stab? Nothing. Both of those came from Kane, not Marley. Biz brought the samples for his stuff too, and when he stopped having Marley produce for him, his stuff still was funky, no drop-off. I give credit to Marley for putting it all together, which is production, but with what's known now about him not giving credit and his false claim to inventing drum break sampling, I can't continue to put him on a pedestal like in the past. Kinda like how everyone used to think that Eric B. did the beats, then we all found out it was Rakim and Paul C./Large Pro doing 'em.

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

And the engineer would tell you that although he pushed the buttons and made the tape loops, he didn't make the record. He took instructions from E and Parrish.That's why EPMD stayed funky, 'cause of E's ear for samples. When he learned to use equipment, he did it himself

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

life always offers you a 2nd chance...it's called tomorrow. use it wisely

life always offers you a 2nd chance...it's called tomorrow. use it wisely

Too much had already been established in terms technique, but he definitely took it next level in some respects. Sort of how I'd view Nas in relation to Rakim and that generation.

say his influence changed Hip Hop the way Rakim did?


IMO Nas' style is the offspring of Rakim, with Kool G Rap and BDK
sprinkles... Live at the BBQ is a clear cut example of this imo.

The one thing I haven't heard was who fathered his signature flow...
again, it wasn't used in Live at the BBQ(at least I can't hear it). Was it Nas or Big L since they
hit the scene around the same time. I know AZ used it as well, but I
assumed he didn't father it.

Not that any of this takes away from Nas' contribution, but when I
listen to pre and post Rakim Hip Hop, there's a difference.

*
*
*

also he didn't really invent something new as much as he did innovate based off of what we'd seen already
that alone would take him out of the running for that comparison

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

don't complicate things

_______________________________________

you have sexually transmitted crazy mouth...DEALBREAKER!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdIMxP70sAM&feature=related

**********
I should put that in a song

@nategoodness
www.nategoodness.com

The avatar is old. And, no, that hat was not a groovy style back then, either.

**********
I should put that in a song

@nategoodness
www.nategoodness.com

The avatar is old. And, no, that hat was not a groovy style back then, either.

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

though I think most noticed Marley, so I tend to roll with him. "The Bridge" was some -new- shit for the time.

edit: Bomb Squad is a damn good ass answer. Their shit on PE's FIRST album was some real different shit...

He's the one Premier, Pete Rock, & RZA all said they took their style from Marley and tweaked it to form their own.

Premier said his scratch chorus/montages come from Marley, Pete Rock say the way Marley use to use different samples and put them together like it was from one sample is what he learned from Marley, and RZA said the way Marley would sample and loop the not so popular parts from a song and either speed up or slow down the sample is what he got from Marley.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

prolly Dre

of what modern hip-hop production is. All the greats after him started with the template he created. There really wasn;t a 'hip-hop producer' to the extent of how we know it today before Marley.

No disrespect to the Larry Smiths, Rick Rubins and producers of the early hip-hop, and I might be a little young know all what went on before Marley....

but being raised in the 90's and all of the legendary producers that decade bread being influenced by him... It seems like Marley created the guideline, so to speak, to what a hip-hop break maker/producer actually is and does.

#PicABeat Audio Photo series. Where the beat is inspired by the photo.
http://soundcloud.com/KingAkai

http://kingakai.com

“I love these bitches, man. I really do.”
- Andre 3000

Just so I ADD to the discussion, instead of just arguing on your thread, my choice is Dilla all the way. Just via the fact that a whole SUB-GENRE of music (the so-called "Neo-Soul") is entirely based on his production style, to say nothing of his revolutionary approach to bassline groove programming and drum chopping. Talented to the point where you have giants in the game like Pete Rock acknowledging his superiority. There's a clear division in the timeline of Hip-Hop production of before Jay Dee/Dilla and after, and it starts at FanTasTic Vol. 1, IMO. Just as before Rakim, no one was rhyming with the same type of flow and combination of deep metaphor and mystery, so too with Dilla and his combination of intricate drum chopping, innovative basslines and wildly diverse use of sample material.

>Just so I ADD to the discussion, instead of just arguing on
>your thread, my choice is Dilla all the way. Just via the fact
>that a whole SUB-GENRE of music (the so-called "Neo-Soul") is
>entirely based on his production style

Neo Soul is based on A Tribe Called Quest's production style, not Dilla's
Brown Sugar came out in 95, nobody knew anything about Dilla then to be doing that shit


>to say nothing of his
>revolutionary approach to bassline groove programming and drum
>chopping. Talented to the point where you have giants in the
>game like Pete Rock acknowledging his superiority. There's a
>clear division in the timeline of Hip-Hop production of before
>Jay Dee/Dilla and after, and it starts at FanTasTic Vol. 1,
>IMO. Just as before Rakim, no one was rhyming with the same
>type of flow and combination of deep metaphor and mystery, so
>too with Dilla and his combination of intricate drum chopping,
>innovative basslines and wildly diverse use of sample
>material.

the rest of this is just hyperbole so I won't bother but you are vastly overrating him in this regard

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

You could probably debate the producer/engineer tag until the cows come home, but Paul still deserves some consideration there.

Marley is still a pretty good choice too

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

I have and rather freak the original sample from Skull Snaps than go to the Stezo joint or even Primo's muddy sample of "Brand New Day" drums; but what I think a lot of producers are doing is using sample packs that they get or from sound banks from keyboards which has the sampled drums in them like so many drum breaks of ole; even Marley's "The Bridge" drums are in a lot of keyboards and digital drum-sample packs.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

Production has changed over and over again.

Marley did it.

Bomb Squad did it.

PR did it.

Preem did it.

RZA did it.

Dre did it.

Timbo did it.

Swizz did it.

Neptunes did it.

Kanye did it.

It all depends on what's hot. I tink people in this post are starting to think that whoever was the first to do something has to be the one but it doesn't work like that.

>Production has changed over and over again.

which may lead to the question:
did rakim really innovate like people think he did?
or is he just the one people noticed and gave credit too

spoonie g was doin' that style, kool moe d, biz markie, and a few others
were doin' that style
he just was the one that had the "hit" doin' it i.e. eric b is president

life always offers you a 2nd chance...it's called tomorrow. use it wisely

Spoon was a storytelling rapper, he didn't have Rakim's flow or lyricism
Mo Dee was doing intricate patterns and speed rapping (which he invented) but he didn't slow it down to a crawl like Ra did
rappers before him either yelled or had comparatively remedial content; Rakim pretty much changed what rappers were able to do and say for the better
and when you think that most of his first album was written between 15-17 it's even more incredible

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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

enough with marley and rza and dre and pete roc etc.... Premier made more careers thn any other producer. Just lok at his body of work. it's not even close. i mean them other guys are dope but preem changed the game eff that, its silly to think otherwise.

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�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

doesn't matter he's not an active part of mainstream/popular Hip Hop now, you can't take away what he did regardless of the niggerasses in here trying

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CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
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Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

if we're going there

life always offers you a 2nd chance...it's called tomorrow. use it wisely