however as a Band leader he is in the first tier circle.

as a Producer in the 25-50 range IMO.

those are his strongest contributions IMO.

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>however as a Band leader he is in the first tier circle.
>
>as a Producer in the 25-50 range IMO.
>
>those are his strongest contributions IMO.

So if he was to be compared to someone in Hip Hop, would he be like a Puffy?

even though he doesn't play an instrument he knows about writing a song and also about asembling talent and getting things done,etc..

ain't nobody in hip hop as a Producer aside from Dr.Dre or Rick Ruben that can really see George Clinton and those two can't because look at the talent he had in his camp?

Bernie Worell, Eddie Hazell, Mike Hampton, Bootsy Collins alone is a One Man Band and I ain't even talking about Junie Morrison. so no nobody in Hip Hop as a Producer can see a George Clinton.

and especially as a Band leader

but back to as a songwriter he has memorable and Great songs associated with him, however nobody aside from P Funk fans would dare say he is in the arugment with the top tier songwriters ever.

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>even though he doesn't play an instrument he knows about
>writing a song and also about asembling talent and getting
>things done,etc..
>
>ain't nobody in hip hop as a Producer aside from Dr.Dre or
>Rick Ruben that can really see George Clinton and those two
>can't because look at the talent he had in his camp?
>
>Bernie Worell, Eddie Hazell, Mike Hampton, Bootsy Collins
>alone is a One Man Band and I ain't even talking about Junie
>Morrison. so no nobody in Hip Hop as a Producer can see a
>George Clinton.
>
>and especially as a Band leader
>
>but back to as a songwriter he has memorable and Great songs
>associated with him, however nobody aside from P Funk fans
>would dare say he is in the arugment with the top tier
>songwriters ever.
>
>

Oh, ok. I get it now now. I understand.

g-funk took everything that was exciting about p-funk
and removed it.

p-funk is inspirational rebel music.
g-funk is tepid, sociopathic easy listening.

>
>So if he was to be compared to someone in Hip Hop, would he be
>like a Puffy?

well....in the liner notes for the many facets of Roger lp....Roger Troutman praised him and thanked him and proclaim that george clinton is truly the father of funk.

so in the genre of funk....he is top notch and even Roger Troutman proclaimed him the father of funk in the liner notes for the many facets of Roger lp.

fuck you.

Jordan!

he ain't seeing

Stevie Wonder as a songwriter

Sly Stone as a Songwriter whom by the way Clinton thinks is the Greatest ever

Smokey Robinson

Norman Whitfield

Holland,Dozier and Holland

Lionel Richie

Gamble and Huff

Maurice White

thats just some off the top of the dome. now as a Producer and Bandleader ican co sign, but as a songwriter? Naw. he is in the same boat as James Brown in terms of Band leader and Producer,however Brown had more impact as a solo artist, but neither one of these cats is seeing a top 10 as all time songwriters and I'm just talking amongest Black acts, not even talking on the whole whole.

IMO

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fuck you.

ain't no way George CLinton is holding Stevie Wonder's braile Pen and paper as a songwriter you done lost your natural mind there turkey.

Smokey Robinson is a Mount rushmore writer

Lonel Richie same thing

Holland dozier and Holland

Norman Whitfield.

if you are talking Band leader, asembling a team and also Producer then Clinton Belongs, however strickly on the songwriting tip? naw.

Clinton was a staff writer at motown and he built his work ethic from Berry Gordy and lets be real he ain't seeing Gordy as a Songwriter either, however in the funk movemment Clinton is a Mountrushmore figure. no doubt and very important just not a top ten all time songwriter important.

only cats that associate beats, grooves and vamps would even consider him in that argument. however the most memorable songs he is associated with when compared to said folks i mention above would be seen as great jams and grooves however not hall of fame tier like those cats. i think the world of George CLinton because as a Mastermind he is in that all around argument, just not as a SOngwriter per se like that.

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the man had a hand in too many songs that i'd call great in part b/c of the writing.

my appreciation for his songwriting is mostly about his lyrics. and the general concepts he came up with. P-Funk has put out too much genius-level work and he was there writing or helping write just about all of it - especially the lyrics. so yeah, he's up there w/the geniuses, IMO.

fuck you.

george clinton is right up there with them.

and as for this...

>only cats that associate beats, grooves and vamps would even
>consider him in that argument


i can tell you you're wrong in that assumption.
b/c i LOVE p-funk and i HATE g-funk.
dr.dre focused on the "beat" aspect of George Clinton and he missed the point.

that's why i can't stand dr. dre.
he watered down p-funk.



maxxx, you are wrong.

because they had a importance placed on songwriting and craftmanship.

then George CLinton is wrong because he considers Sly Stone to be the Greatest Songwriter ever, etc..

always encounter cats who don't know about the song, the song, the song, the song

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half your list.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

if we are deaing with Joe and Mary Q and they probably know "flashlight", knee deep, one nation under a groove and automic dog. however ask them how that stands up next to "My girl"? "Easy"? stop in the name of Love? backstabbers?

timeless songs are timeless. George CLinton is a great all around musical force, however as a Songwriter he ain't seeing none of those cats and he would be the first to tell you that, however now as a Producer and Bandleader talent scout he can hang with bout near anybody.

Clinton is the prototype for Hip hop because between Berry Gordy,Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone and James Brown and the european scene is where CLinton was able to get more than a good pinch and stir that musical soup up real nicely.

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"nah we can't be havin dat"
lol
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Smokey Robinson, Holland, Dozier and Holland, Norman Whitfield, are looking at you sideways and cross eyed. those 4 cats alone as songwriters would flip the Kool aid colors off of george clinton's head.

i love CLinton all around for what he does, however he ain't hanging with those cats as no songwriter.

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'Songwriter' does not pop into my mind when I think of George Clinton.

He was an arranger, producer, bandleader.....but the large majority of his works were just grooves....not what I'd call 'compositions'.

But even more so in Brother Maxxx...

Y'all in here acting like all George wrote was "Flashlight" and "Atomic Dog" (even though those boast a kind of songwriting genius of their own). Clinton was a pioneer of a certain kind of groove-based composition, but he was also very capable of writing conventional R&B and pop songs. I don't know how much credit he can get as a composer per se, but he certainly was (and is) a wicked lyricist.

And that's where the disappointment with mistermaxxx sets in... for a guy who has spent the better part of the last two weeks lionizing Brian McKnight for upholding the standard of humor in R&B (yes, I have been lurking a little lately), if you claim you like your R&B to be infused with biting wit, George Clinton has to be in your top 3 of all time.

At a time when R&B was either painfully earnest or rigged with low-key O. Henry-style narrative twists (think: Motown tunes like "Two Lovers" or "The Hunter Gets Captured by the Game"), George was plunging full-on into the irony, creating R&B songs that were self-aware, self-parodying, grotesque, imagistic.

Check out "I'll Bet You" http://youtu.be/_PPepwqggmU

or "I Can't Shake It A-Loose" http://youtu.be/efKdE_0X4HM (crappy quality, but the only copy I could find on YT)

George was a bold pioneer of writing about "reality" in R&B... While some of the early songs about ghetto life he wrote at Motown were considered too edgy, like "Moonshine Heather" http://youtu.be/bqGXAPPA_KA his style was soon emulated by Norm Whitfield for Temptations hits like "Cloud 9" (which actually appropriates George's "Whoa ha hey, whoa ha ha" catchphrase) and "Papa Was a Rolling Stone."

Check out the songwriting on "Cosmic Slop" http://youtu.be/PKr0gn4o1YM

mistermaxxx, you're into humor in R&B and you're fronting on "My Automobile"? http://youtu.be/Qyw4FQ-fBz4

Or another of George's clever Motown-era tunes, "The Loser's Seat" http://youtu.be/Qyw4FQ-fBz4

"Good Old Music" is another crazy song: http://youtu.be/hYou34ZNSHw

I haven't even said nothing about "I Wanna Testify"...

Yes, I realize that everything I've posted is before the "high P-Funk" era... but George continued to pen some great conventionally-structured songs even through that period. And even if you want to just look at the heavy funk/groove stuff, the man was producing FUCKING HOOKS. WORDPLAY. CATCHPHRASES THAT HAVE ENDURED 30+ YEARS.

SoWhat is correct in saying that George Clinton is one of the greatest songwriters of all time. Stop this craziness.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Sly's name Belt around his waist as a Songwriter. and acting like George was hanging with Smokey? Holland,dozier and Holland, Norman Whitfield, and then a Stevie Wonder and a Marvin Gaye,

NEGRO Please! George Clinton is the same boat with James Brown and thats a great boat, however it ain't about being a great songwriter.

Brian Mcknight is a very good songwriter and this latest project is funny, however if Brian had have done this his whole career then he might be as remembered as Frankie Smith or Carl Carlton.

don't confuse the two.

P Funk are arugably the best cast of musicians i have ever heard in a band, however there albums for the most part were always hit and miss to me and i didn't listen to P Funk for the writing though i got the concepts it was about the musicianship.

the funkateers that did the funk but also balanced out the writing went on to other things.

George clinton ain't seeing them real real songwriters at all.

if you came out of your cave to throw that out here, well Bro Man it didn't move me.

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>Sly's name Belt around his waist as a Songwriter. and acting
>like George was hanging with Smokey? Holland,dozier and
>Holland, Norman Whitfield, and then a Stevie Wonder and a
>Marvin Gaye,

Marvin's name doesn't belong in that list for that skill imo. But agreed with your sentiments.

You posted groove-based songs.

Perhaps our definition of 'songwriting' is the source of the difference in perception. J Hellberg talks about it below....I'm from the school of thought that he critiques...but identifies accurately.

acoustic guitar, grand piano and bongos.

The fact that they are also incredibly danceable and finger-popping does not make them less accomplished songs, imho... It makes them BETTER

I think we're encountering the perpetual rockist problem where the common perception of "songwriting" is shaped by Dylan, Lennon & McCartney, Joni Mitchell and John & Taupin and stuff like that. Or that it's got to be lyrical to the detriment of groove, or melodically precious and self-consciously "deep" and literary. Just cause a song makes you wanna move don't make it less of a song, y'know?

I don't agree with you that the songs I posted are primarily "groove-based," but even if they were... What exactly is the significance of that? Does it make them lesser songs?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Say anything.....George Clinton goes down for a lot of different things. Not songwriting.

I'd have thrown some of the album cuts in there as well. George didn't write 'straight ahead' songs that fit in the singer songwriter category. But rather he was ahead of his time in the perception that that could only go so far. He threw the irony in lyrically and musically which gave birth to the funk which completely deconstructed what a song was and built it up from a different base. But the only way he was able to do this was because of his poetic license having done the factory line writing. And his intelligence as asongwriter shows up in almost everything he did (before the 90's let's say). You want to say he wasn't a conventional songwriter cool. You want to limit your classification to one of the greatest conventional songwriers cool. But don't take songwriting from George, it's damn near his bread and butter.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

fuck you.

Bread and butter?

I agree with Max. You guys don't know songwriting.

Arranging chants over blues vamps is not songwriting.

if you think all he did was arrange chants over Blues vamps you're probably not too familiar w/his work.

fuck you.

I'll play you some demo's of his songwriting mid process.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

alot of these turkeys go by Grooves and Beats and think that is a songwriter or a Producer??

Stevie Wonder could do what George Clinton can do, however could George Clinton do what Stevie Wonder has done? I don't think so.

Words and Music structure.

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that is what I'm talkin bout there.

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Without a great lyricist (Eddie Holland or Barrett Strong), he was only good for instrumentals.

Has anyone ever sat & listened to the lyrics of "Car Wash" or "I Wanna Get Next to You"?

and car wash still got replay value till this day. wrong answer next.

he was still a co writer Turkey and

I heard it through the grapevine 1)

war 2)

papa was a rolling stone 3)

all say march outta this thread with your head between your tail and leave ASAP because you got taken to school. co writer Jive turkey is still a writer.

you can put those 3 songs up against any songs over the past 40 years in the 50-100 countdown and not think twice.

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god-awful.

And yes, Whitfield was a co-writer, but the co-writing arrangement he had with Barrett Strong went "I write the music, he writes the lyrics". Clinton could write lyrics. Whitfield was not that good at it. Plus, Clinton could write whole albums where every song is good. Whitfield is a bit notorious for turning out a few duds here and there that are underwritten and overproduced.

All of name-calling (from a middle-aged man) in the world isn't going to convince me that Whitfield was a great songwriter. And I've always been a bigger fan of Whitfield than of Clinton.

turkey is cool and comical just as you trying to convince yourself that George is a Better songwriter than Norman.

i like and respect your knowledge and i applaud how deep you get with your counter arguments,however "I wanna get next to you" gets played because it has the basis of what moves people in a song and it works Man.

you gotta remember something BroHam, these songs were considered classics when i was barely around and just learning my ABCS from watching 'Sesame Street" and here we are almost 40 years later and "I wanna get next to you" still gets madd play and it moves folks.

people love P Funk, however songwriting versus grooves is two different animals Bro.

no harm no foul and not meaning to start nothing, however we got two different waves when it comes to songwriting Bro.

Norman's songs still hold up far better IMO, though George got everything else over him

peace

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No. However, I find that idea of songwriting pretty outdated. P-funks songs were not JUST loose jams, they definitely had structure with various chants, breakdowns etc. added at strategic moments and also strong lyrical concepts.

Where to draw the distinction between arranging and songwriting outside of lyrics in the context of a genre like funk is difficult but I would say that the "vertical" aspects (=rhythm-patterns, horn-arrangements etc.) fall under arranging whereas the *placement* of those aspects in the context of the song as well as the song-structure fall under ''songwriting''. Just my opinion...

Anyway, the early songs he wrote in the 60's were perfectly competent and in some cases even strong from a more conventional standpoint so he definitely *could* write conventional songs even if I wouldn't say it was his strongest point...

you can listen to wants to get funked up, mothership connection, or clones, and its obvious that they werent made up on the spot, they can sometimes seem like two different songs pieced together which is pretty inventive/unconventional/avant garde arranging. but if thats 'great songwriting', then so is frank zappa. the thing that made GC stand out was that he broke the 'great songwriting' rules.

What it essentially boils down to is that a good song should be able to work even if it's performed at a piano or with an acoustic guitar and nothing else. Basically:the information contained within the basic sheet-music (chords and melody) should be enough for the song to stand strong and work. It's natural that people feel like that since that is how songs were (and still are) written in most cases. It's also a bit backwards and conservative though.

What if the composer(s) has no intention of wanting his/her song to work in that arrangement? Should that be held against him/her? Should it be considered just arranging or jamming? Neither terms are too good for this IMO; arranging and arrangements is something you do with/add to an already existing song, not the song itself and as for jamming:is there REALLY any principal difference between two guys brainstorming ideas at a piano and a bunch of guys getting their ideas for a song by jamming?

I just don't think it's fair to dismiss the importance of songwriting in all styles where it's less conventional (and it's not just funk BTW-it could be techno or metal or Hip-Hop or whatever), I think it's better to redefine the term in a genre-specific context...

>What it essentially boils down to is that a good song should
>be able to work even if it's performed at a piano or with an
>acoustic guitar and nothing else. Basically:the information
>contained within the basic sheet-music (chords and melody)
>should be enough for the song to stand strong and work. It's
>natural that people feel like that since that is how songs
>were (and still are) written in most cases. It's also a bit
>backwards and conservative though.

true, but i think the basics of songwriting will never really fade. that format has stayed around for a reason.

>What if the composer(s) has no intention of wanting his/her
>song to work in that arrangement? Should that be held against
>him/her? Should it be considered just arranging or jamming?
>Neither terms are too good for this IMO; arranging and
>arrangements is something you do with/add to an already
>existing song, not the song itself and as for jamming:is there
>REALLY any principal difference between two guys brainstorming
>ideas at a piano and a bunch of guys getting their ideas for a
>song by jamming?

its not really the process i think thats the issue, more the end result. you can jam and jam and piece it together in a way that resembles the basic standard structure, or you can just improvise, put it to tape and release it as is. how you write doesnt matter, its the end result that emerges from that. you can write on a laptop staring at sequences (which often makes for even more rigid songs which i dont like either) or you can make it all up as you go along.


>I just don't think it's fair to dismiss the importance of
>songwriting in all styles where it's less conventional (and
>it's not just funk BTW-it could be techno or metal or Hip-Hop
>or whatever), I think it's better to redefine the term in a
>genre-specific context...

yep. which is why i think GC is prob the best funk songwriter. of course hes a writer, but i dont think funk really cares about the standard notion of songwriting you have in other genres, so what GC did within that context was def pretty brilliant. but its not pop songwriting in the way sly stone was. funk bands of course didnt only do funk songs, but funk as a genre/style overall threw out the normal songwriting rulebook.

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at least not in the conventional sense.
which is what makes him such a pioneer.

and lyrically, nobody's touching him.

Important as James brown as a all around artist though however from the roducer, talent scout, impact, music, etc.. in the same boat on the funk side of the lake

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And we had this same thread/debate about JB awhile back I remember.

however the overall picture taken that aspect out they are in the same boat basically

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That being said....every 15 year old music-loving kid should smoke some reefer and listen to pfunk for a few months.

it seems normal if that is a word to use? Peace

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On the mic personaLity he mighthave to be top 10 ever. Lyrcist? Sneaky dope

* * * * =========
* * * * =========
* * * * =========
==============
==============

and i think he was a great songwriter in the pop sense when he wanted to be, more so earlier on id say, when he was still a bit more conservative (i happen to like how all your goodies is more conservative musically but still pretty vicious lyrically), but he wasnt on the songs that made p-funk famous, just cos funk isnt really a songwriters genre.

but george still wrote songs like all your goodies are gone, automobile, fantasy is reality, silent boatman, placebo syndrome, i misjudged you. and ride on from chocolate city is i think a good example of funk writing with clever songwriting twists.

but yeah, mothership connection, pfunk (want to get funked up) and atomic dog arent really great examples of what we think of as good (pop) songwriting (theyre great riffs).

then we can also take joni mitchell and bob dylan off the top tier as well.
they didn't write pop songs, either.

but would anybody disagree that they are top tier song writers?

its still more 'pop' than something repetitious like:

"Give Up The Funk (Tear The Roof Off The Sucker)"
Tear the roof off, we're gonna tear the roof off the mother, sucker
Tear the roof off the sucker
(x4)

You've got a real type of thing going down, gettin' down
There's a whole lot of rhythm going round
(x2)

Ow, we want the funk
Give up the funk
Ow, we need the funk
We gotta have that funk
(x2)

La la la la la
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo, owww!
(x2)

You've got a real type of thing going down, gettin' down
There's a whole lot of rhythm going round
(x2)

Ow, we want the funk
Give up the funk
Ow, we need the funk
We gotta have that funk
(x2)

La la la la la
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo, owww!
(x2)

We're gonna turn this mother out (x2)

You've got a real type of thing going down, gettin' down
There's a whole lot of rhythm going round
(x4)

Ow, we want the funk
Give up the funk
Ow, we need the funk (let us in we'll tear this mother out {after 2nd & 3rd})
We gotta have that funk
(x7)

Ow, we want the funk (we're gonna turn this mother out)
Give up the funk
Ow, we need the funk (we're gonna turn this mother out)
We gotta have that funk
(x2)

Ow, we want the funk
Give up the funk
Ow, we need the funk (let us in we'll tear this mother out {after 2nd & 3rd})
We gotta have that funk
(x2)

We want the funk
Give up the funk
We need the funk
We gotta have that funk
(x3)

La la la la la
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo, owww!
(x2)

You've got a real type of thing going down, gettin' down (x2)
There's a whole lot of rhythm going down
You've got a real type of thing going down, gettin' down
There's a whole lot of rhythm going down

Ow, we want the funk
Give up the funk
Ow, we need the funk (let us in we'll tear this mother out {after 2nd & 3rd})

im not saying GC didnt write great (pop) songs. he did. but that was not really what p-funk were interested in. a song like ill bet you is still a good pop song, despite the arrangement. but a lot of what came later is more about riffs, vamps, the arrangements, the band basically. george did a lot of interesting stuff, the band played a lot of innovative, sophisticated, strange music, so if your definition of songwriting extends to all those things, then yeah, he was great, but its still not pop songs, which is why so many people think motown, stevie, marvin, prince, sly, etc wrote 'great' songs.

it said songwriter. period.
george clinton doesn't really write pop songs.

he doesn't belong on a list of POPsongwriters.
but that's not what this post is about.


and so what if joni and dylan stuck to verse/ hook format?

you still can't hum their melodies.
which is kind of what pop music is.

their songs were just as unconventional if we use the
"can a 4 year old hum it, and can you play it on a piano" standard.

>im not saying GC didnt write great (pop) songs. he did. but
>that was not really what p-funk were interested in. a song
>like ill bet you is still a good pop song, despite the
>arrangement. but a lot of what came later is more about riffs,
>vamps, the arrangements, the band basically. george did a lot
>of interesting stuff, the band played a lot of innovative,
>sophisticated, strange music, so if your definition of
>songwriting extends to all those things, then yeah, he was
>great, but its still not pop songs, which is why so many
>people think motown, stevie, marvin, prince, sly, etc wrote
>'great' songs.

the folks comparing george clinton to smokey and holland-dozier and holland
are missing the point.


i mean, I'd expect the post to go his way in one of those tired "beatles vs james brown"
posts.

but it's weird to see people diminishing george clinton's song writing
by comparing it to (conservative) black song writing.

and yes, 60's Motown was conservative. berry gordy wouldn't have it any other way.



you know, I wouldn't expect the rock and roll establishment to appreciate george clinton as a songwriter...
but i am surprised that mistermaxxx, who is openly critical of the rock and roll establishment,
would downplay george clinton's songwriting by comparing it to (conservative) black songwriting.


as if songwriting isn't songwriting unless the songwriting
fits into the conservative mold that rolling stone magazine laid down?
I thought mistermaxxx's entire 'agenda' was making sure that
black artists got the credit they deserved.

does that only apply to "traditional" black artists that are easily accessable
for crossover appeal (like motown, and lionel richie?)


it's ironic.


i mean...george clinton said "we were to black for white people, and too white for
black people."

which explains why he didn't fit at Motown.
b/c Motown was all about crossover appeal.

it also explains some of the reactions in this post.

when people talk about great songs, whatever the genre, thats basically what we're talking about.

he did write some great songs in that vein, but thats not really what p-funk were about.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

the original post didn't say POP songwriter, though.
it said songwriter.

no, george clinton isn't a great pop songwriter.
which is probably why he didn't fit at motown.

but this post isn't about POP songwriting.
it's about songwriting, period.


if you wanna talk POP songwriters, then yeah.
take george off the list. he's not accessible.

a list of pop song writers includes Motown, Beatles, MJ,
and the song doctors that hook up those britney spears and n'sync records.
george doesn't make the cut.


but that's not what this post is.

so george clinton is top tier.

>the original post didn't say POP songwriter, though.
>it said songwriter.

songwriting IS what pop is about.

you can have great songs without them being pop, but great songWRITING id say is wedded to certain notions of pop-ness that we cant really get away from.

one p-funk record can have 8 or 9 hooks
weaving in and out of a song.

how did those horn stabs get there?
where did the drum fills come from?
where did the improvisational licks in the bass line come from?
where did the jazzy chords in the breakdown come from?


and where did the rock solid groove that keeps all of the sounds from devolving into chaos come from?




they came from a songwriter and an arranger.
the musicians improvised around the guidance given to them from the songwriter and the arranger.


it's definitely songwriting.



every great songwriter doesn't write pop songs.
there is more than one type of songwriting.



>>the original post didn't say POP songwriter, though.
>>it said songwriter.
>
>songwriting IS what pop is about.
>
>you can have great songs without them being pop, but great
>songWRITING id say is wedded to certain notions of pop-ness
>that we cant really get away from.
>
>

or it just sprang out of them w/o any work b/c they're Black.

^ that's what these ppl seem to be on w/this. LOL

just...ugh.

fuck you.

n/m

they just jam together, fuck around in the studio, and piece things together from that (im pretty sure most of keith richards songs came out from riffing in the studio)

but you can still piece it together into an end result approximating a 'song'

george and them didnt want to do that

they were BORED of the old motown factory way of writing (even though he loved those songs)

they didnt want to write pop songs

they wanted to stretch out

ie songwriting was not that important, it was more about being the best band, showing off chops, being loose, i dont think he wanted to be a great songwriter in the classic sense.

theres nothing wrong with that, i love a lot of their albums that sprawl out all over the place, i like my 20 minute live recording of flashlight, but i also love when they wrote compact songs, like coming round the mountain, fantasy is reality, cosmic slop too.

this isnt confined to funk btw. lots of 70s rock bands had killer riffs but werent necessarily into writing 'great songs'.

i guess this boils down to semantics, the diff between 'great records' and 'great songs' (which imo = great songwriting which for me = a certain structure).

the concepts P-Funk came up with...just materialized from jams.

right.

fuck you.

i already said GC was one a great lyricist (one of my favourites actually). but you can put a song together without lyrics. you can have a melody without lyrics. lots of songs get written music first, lyrics later.

i did.

i think George is a great songwriter in part b/c of his lyrics.

i think it's silly to say that lyricists aren't helping write songs.

and i'm w/JCM in that i think it's sad to see you ppl perpetuating the sort of rockist hair-splitting that's been used to discredit the innovations of non-Rock (and now non-Pop) artists. i could throw race in there and point out that this sort of bending over backward is often used to discredit non-white artists and art made by non-whites, generally. but i won't. i'll just keep shaking my head and tsking at this whole thing.

fuck you.

>and i'm w/JCM in that i think it's sad to see you ppl
>perpetuating the sort of rockist hair-splitting that's been
>used to discredit the innovations of non-Rock (and now
>non-Pop) artists. i could throw race in there and point out
>that this sort of bending over backward is often used to
>discredit non-white artists and art made by non-whites,
>generally. but i won't. i'll just keep shaking my head and
>tsking at this whole thing.

i already said in my first post that hes a great writer for several great songs he wrote. ive just said when it comes to comparing him to lamont dozier or prince or ashford and simpson or gamble and huff, he didnt write songs in that mould. its a completely different aesthetic. you guys are saying great songwriting = pop writing which doesnt favour black music, and thats mostly right, but far as i can tell, the best loved R&B is usually the stuff that is on that line that crosses into pop territory.

the reason dylan and mitchell etc are regarded as great songwriters is just cos (white) rock ppl are the establishment so they can decide this. without wanting to get too damaja-ish about this, dylan was a great lyricist who melodically, was often not much to write home about. but he wrote some great pop songs along the way. joni mitchell did a lot of interesting things melodically and was a great lyricist, but again, not everything she wrote was a great song like case of you.

so fine, GC is a great songwriter, but i would maintain he is that for certain songs that fit a certain structure/aesthetic. im fine with being called popist lol.

fuck you.