In rereading this epic take on the whole Come saga - http://prince.org/msg/7/317254 I had to step back from my standom for a minute and say you know what... WB was right. Prince couldn't and shouldn't release that much material. Of course he should make it. Always make it, but he definitely needs a filter. It makes me wonder though. He had a lot of freeedoms at WB, but were they filtering content prior to that? If so could that filter have been what created the classics? Or did he have a better since of project which he lost up his artistic ass (less pants) as time went on.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

but not 9 times a day
meaning he shoulda paced himself.
instead he flooded the market.
and yes HE was correct on "beautiful girl" being a hit and warner shoulda trusted him on it.
but he shoulda been wise enough to know he was turning in diminished returns after the 90s.

i really don't see how warner was at fault when he pushed the envelope as far as it could go in his career.

his missteps started with insisting mountains follow up "kiss"

-"girls & boys" was SO the obvious choice.

same with Sign O:

-Sign, Look, Place Of Your Man, Housequake coulda made that a powerhouse.

instead: brilliant filler once again gets mistaken for easily digestible hits.

add to the money wasted on the label


nah....WB set him up lovely

NO! LIST
Tom Petty
M J
Zeppelin
Springsteen
Neil Young
Eagles
Ray Charles
Madonna
Chuck Berry
South Park TV Songs
Justin Timberlake
"Food Glorious Food"
"Twilight Zone" theme
"A Boy Named Sue"
"Night Moves"
"The Situation"
"Superbowl Shuffle"

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

i dont know if he was getting shafted on royalties or whatever, but he didnt know how good he had it compared to a lot of other guys.

warners built him his studios! they gave him virtual carte blanche, not just in the 80s, but even in the early 90s!

writing slave was good in a way as a lot of artists sympathised (artists who had it way worse than prince ever would) but im not sure he was one.

there.

I'm glad P almost broke they backs.
He attacked his slave master - he didn't worship him.

Good for him.

>
>his missteps started with insisting mountains follow up
>"kiss"
>
>-"girls & boys" was SO the obvious choice.
>

I never knew that Prince pushed "Mountains" as the follow up. That was definitely a mistake. When I heard mountains, I immediately knew it wasn't going to be a hit. A lot of fans love it, but not me. And the whole purpose of a single, especially at that time, was to be a hit in order to push album sales and get more people to hear your music. Mountains might be a decent song and Parade is definitely an amazing album. "Girls and Boys" is a way better single -- not a number one hit, but it likely would've made the top 20 and possibly top 10.

the vehicle of the two. Pushing the expectation of PRII and then having the complete opposite of it in the form of a black and white french film.

Let's not forget, the success of PR brought in a boatload of ans.
It started obviously with MTV including Little Red Corvette the album before, in their line up.

There was a ramp up.
After PR the new fans found out something the hardcore fans already knew and stayed around for - P could switch up his look and his sound... quick.

You saw a decrease with Around the World and a further decline with Parade based on those items. Not one single.

Hell Lady Cab Driver beats Red Corvette all day in my book but that's not the point.

I personally thought Mountains was dope and I still do. Girls and Boys was hot but saying it was better and could have saved that album?
Nah. Not with that film attached.

Kiss was hot but it came out before the film.
After the film - everything tanked and went downhill.
It was a buzzkill.

Great album - but even Prince said it was a rushed effort.
I love Parade and I often thought the film should have been released as either an art house film only, or a film with private screenings, or maybe on DVD only - I dunno... but not in theaters.

I mean the idea of UTCM is rebellious in itself.

so as to avoid losing the R&B market.

SOTT/La la la
UGTL/HS
ICNTTPOYM/Adore...again, to avoid losing the R&B market.

i take it back. b/c i'd have worked that album for more than a yr. w/a world tour.

i'd drop all 5 on a-sides (Housequake and Adore would be A-sides on their own singles, i mean). i'd trust my momentum @ R&B and Pop and hope/assume i wouldn't lose steam @ either market while i work the other.

fuck you.

When I first heard SOTT... I was kinda like "WTF?!!"

it sounded to me like 1987 party music.
The kind of music that WOULD have kept Prince in good graces with those who started waning in '85.

i guess DJs flipped over 'U Got the Look'.

fuck you.

plus pushed the single...

made the album that much doper...
and more interesting - by far a better marketing plan than just giving up the hottest singles, then you buy the joint and it's... okay.. .by comparison.

they announced that shit like it was War Of The Worlds.

pssh Adore too!!!!

played the mess outta it!


matter of fact....


if Black Radio had its say:


Sign
Housequake
Adore
Hot Thing
Beautiful Night
Dorothy

was ALL black radio in philly was playing like it was nOTHING!

NO! LIST
Tom Petty
M J
Zeppelin
Springsteen
Neil Young
Eagles
Ray Charles
Madonna
Chuck Berry
South Park TV Songs
Justin Timberlake
"Food Glorious Food"
"Twilight Zone" theme
"A Boy Named Sue"
"Night Moves"
"The Situation"
"Superbowl Shuffle"

big time in STL, at least. i noticed they only played the speech @ the end after 9pm. i remember this b/c 11 yr old me thought he was talking about drinking pee ('Let me kiss you there, you know, down there where it counts, I swear I'll drink every ounce') and i was titillated and disgusted at the same time.

fuck you.

>big time in STL, at least. i noticed they only played the
>speech @ the end after 9pm. i remember this b/c 11 yr old me
>thought he was talking about drinking pee ('Let me kiss you
>there, you know, down there where it counts, I swear I'll
>drink every ounce') and i was titillated and disgusted at the
>same time.

if he was talking about drinking pee.
if it were Dirty Mind-era "Troll Prince" I would have to think twice about it

all the time. Housequake, If i was your girlfriend, Adore, got much,much play.

however they didn't touch "U got the Look" too tough and Sign got some spins at first.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

>In rereading this epic take on the whole Come saga -
>http://prince.org/msg/7/317254 I had to step back from my
>standom for a minute and say you know what... WB was right.
>Prince couldn't and shouldn't release that much material.

he wanted to release 'Come' in 1993, after O(+>. was he wrong about that? naw.

i think he and WB had unrealistic/unreasonable sales expectations for his projects for the artist he was at that point. both sides were still reaching for that superstar status and it just wasn't in the cards. if both sides could've been cool w/his albums selling a million or so copies in the USA, it would've been fine. but they each expected like 5 million or whatever each time. and when it didn't materialize there were hurt feelings and anger and bitterness. and it got ugly.

AND, there was the shifting biz going on. Prince had come up in the era where acts tended to release a new album each yr. which was a shift from the time when they released 2/yr, of course. but anyway, by the mid 90s after MJ had shaken up everything in the 80s, acts were releasing less frequently. but Prince still wanted to pump out at least 1/yr. really he was doing 2 - 5/yr w/all those side projects going on.

was it too much? no. HIS albums, i mean. the side projects were all too much. but i would've bought 'Come' in 1993. and 'TGE' in 1994. like i'd bought Lovesexy in 88, Batman in 89, GB in 90...etc.

WB for some odd reason wanted to package his 80s hits and sell them in 1993, and refused to release his new stuff. i dunno why WB thought the iron was hot then. OH! was it b/c Madonna had sold goo-gobs of copies of her hits package in 1991? i bet that fueled it. i dunno though.

Of
>course he should make it. Always make it, but he definitely
>needs a filter.

yes/no.

It makes me wonder though. He had a lot of
>freeedoms at WB, but were they filtering content prior to
>that?

you already know they were. Crystal Ball 1987 is the earliest story i know about that.

If so could that filter have been what created the
>classics?

is SOTT > CB '87? some say 'yes'.

Or did he have a better since of project which he
>lost up his artistic ass (less pants) as time went on.

huh?

fuck you.

>i think he and WB had unrealistic/unreasonable sales
>expectations for his projects for the artist he was at that
>point. both sides were still reaching for that superstar
>status and it just wasn't in the cards. if both sides
>could've been cool w/his albums selling a million or so copies
>in the USA, it would've been fine. but they each expected
>like 5 million or whatever each time. and when it didn't
>materialize there were hurt feelings and anger and bitterness.
> and it got ugly.

A victim of the growing industry bubble.

>was it too much? no. HIS albums, i mean. the side projects
>were all too much. but i would've bought 'Come' in 1993. and
>'TGE' in 1994. like i'd bought Lovesexy in 88, Batman in 89,
>GB in 90...etc.

Yeah I can see that.

>WB for some odd reason wanted to package his 80s hits and sell
>them in 1993, and refused to release his new stuff. i dunno
>why WB thought the iron was hot then. OH! was it b/c Madonna
>had sold goo-gobs of copies of her hits package in 1991? i
>bet that fueled it. i dunno though.

hmmmmmmm....

> Of
>>course he should make it. Always make it, but he definitely
>>needs a filter.
>
>yes/no.

Did you ever get on any of his early direct to fan services?

> It makes me wonder though. He had a lot of
>>freeedoms at WB, but were they filtering content prior to
>>that?
>
>you already know they were. Crystal Ball 1987 is the earliest
>story i know about that.

That is true!!! I wonder about the earlier ones though. Is there a story of why he wanted to go the double LP route. I think that actually could have been the beginning of the problem, despite how good SOTT was.

> If so could that filter have been what created the
>>classics?
>
>is SOTT > CB '87? some say 'yes'.

I'd be one.

> Or did he have a better since of project which he
>>lost up his artistic ass (less pants) as time went on.
>
>huh?

wrong 'sense'. He had a better sense of building a project.... etc.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>Did you ever get on any of his early direct to fan services?

no. b/c it was 'too much'. LOL

okay, yeah. he needed a filter in the 90s. he needed to be restricted to one album/yr.

>>you already know they were. Crystal Ball 1987 is the
>earliest
>>story i know about that.
>
>That is true!!! I wonder about the earlier ones though. Is
>there a story of why he wanted to go the double LP route.

yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Ball_(unreleased_album)

he started working on an album w/the Revolution. it was a single. then it grew to a double. then he started working on the Camille side project. then he disbanded the Rev. he discarded the tracks he made w/them, kept the solo tracks, combined them w/Camille stuff and made a triple album. WB balked. he relented and reduced it to a double - SOTT.

>>is SOTT > CB '87? some say 'yes'.
>
>I'd be one.

i go back and forth.

>> Or did he have a better since of project which he
>>>lost up his artistic ass (less pants) as time went on.
>>
>>huh?
>
>wrong 'sense'. He had a better sense of building a
>project.... etc.

he seemed to get bored by his projects after a few months. and then he wanted to move on to something else entirely. so when WB held up Come for a yr, he was already on to TGE. then he wanted to put them both out instead of just sticking w/1. but if he had put both out, he wouldn't have promoted Come, only TGE, b/c Come was 'old' by then.

he did som'n similar w/SOTT. he didn't want a US tour after the summer Euro tour b/c the album wasn't selling strongly but also b/c he was over the whole thing. he'd worked on those songs since 1983 in some cases. he was always recording new stuff so by the end of 1987 he wanted to focus on that. whatever he'd done in 1986 or early 87 was 'old' to him.

he could never have worked an album for 2 yrs like MJ did w/'Bad'. but if he had...who knows?

fuck you.

and in the wrong point of his career.

no one wanted to hear the 100s of songs he was making in the 90s. him releasing more albums than he did at that time would have been terrible.

but if he had wanted to release a few albums a year in the mid 80s, then that would be have been perfectly fine.

also, regardless of what was left on the side, warners had good creative control, and their limits, made what he did choose to release that much better. which prince didnt realise. if he was allowed to release EVERYTHING, we would have a situation like madlib on stones throw. which wouldnt have added to the prince mystique of 100s of amazing songs unreleased (ie 'what a genius' etc) and also would mean he wouldnt have the virtually spotless catalogue that he did in the 80s.

so WB wanted to hold up Come for a yr in favor of Hits/B-Sides. he didn't need to launch a 7 yr temper tantrum over it.

fuck you.

they allowed him to release 1 album/yr in his name and then 2 or 3 albums in other names (The Time, Sheila, The Family, et al).

in the early 80s he had his records and The Time's. no more than 2/yr. until he had 1999, What Time Is It and Vanity 6 all w/in a yr.

in 1984 he released at least 4 albums - PR, Ice Cream Castles, Apollonia 6 and Glamorous Life.

1985 - ATWIAD, Family, Romance 1600...

1986 - Parade and i dunno what else.

1987 - SOTT, 2 Madhouse albums, Sheila's album, Jill Jones, and probably more.

they didn't pump the brakes on him for real until CB 1987. but he still got a double album AND a movie released (not by WB).

fuck you.

i think he just got lucky.

the label realised he was not just prolific, but producing high quality records, and a lot of them, and let him release them, a lot of them.

they should have kept that up until at least after 1988 really. cos it should have been obvious that SOTT was still peak material, even if he wasnt selling that much by then.

i wonder if they didnt put up a fight to the triple, whether prince's peak would have gone on much longer.

either way, prince just didnt have the perspective in the 90s to realise he was starting to lose his midas touch. he thought the label didnt understand. but they knew what was happening. he didnt lol. if he started releasing an album every two years after 1990, he could have had a better decade.

his problem was he'd get bored w/his material way too fast. so if he'd released D&P in 1992 and included some of the stuff that ended up on O(+>...that'd have been great. but he wouldn't have wanted to promote it at all. b/c he'd already be on to recording new stuff.

too bad.

but he came out okay.

fuck you.

and especially with GumDrops's reply. Reading that article explained where all the bootlegs came from. Still, I wonder what/how the Stans came across so much information for songs that have not even been heard from that era.

>Still, I wonder
>what/how the Stans came across so much information for songs
>that have not even been heard from that era.



________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

because I could see myself going mad trying to hear a note of "Colleen" or the '81 take of "Jerk Out". Just because I'm interested in the production values.

lol but city lights is live shows so nevermind

not literally, but i remember he'd always be leaking tunes to his favorite radio DJ's.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

man. what you don't know...

that were posted here a while ago. the OKP had no full songs to post and refused to tell us where he got the stuff. but he made it clear the full songs weren't and wouldn't be available anywhere. just those snippets.

i stopped listening to them. lol

fuck you.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

fuck you.

not in support of it. They knew when he turned it in it was a throwaway. At that point he woudl give them anything to satisfy the contract and get out.

That said Let It Go was dope.

says a lot you prolly know but fills in a lot of gaps too.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

WB was right.

After P’s superstar status cooled off in the early 90’s, he should have cut back on his release rate and put out a high quality album every two or three years.

At the very least, that strategy would have eliminated some of the “filler” tracks on his 90’s albums which make up the vast majority of his embarrassing musical moments.

Best case scenario, he puts out fewer, consistently high quality records that the critic and fans like. If a few songs make the charts and become hits, even better.

But it’s always easier to figure this out in retrospect.

Like an aging athlete, it’s hard to tell an artistic superstar that he/she doesn’t have “it” the way they used to.

Like veteran athletes, musicians need to switch up their game re: the marketplace as times change.

and how many of his peers following the WB marketing scheme are?

That's right. None. That said, I think P did what was right for him... if you think about it... the hype around the beef between the two is legend..

here is the most bankable artist of his time outside of Mj and Madonna and he's ready to break free to become an independent artist?

After a 100 million dollar contract? No, WB will try to have you think they were right... but at the end of the day P is still here.. selling out shows.. .making major moves.

Say what you will about those albums but there were a few WB top sellers back then you couldn't sell a club out for now.

P won. I mean last two tours alone prove that. My opinion.

I can't think of one artist who had a SOLID musical career across multiple releases/decades who's touring income took a dive because of shitty modern product; it's a running joke that the Rolling Stones haven't dropped a good album in 3 decades.

Prince's record sales were pretty horrible all things considered, and imho if he trimmed the fat and released a 'blockbuster' album every 4-5 years he would still be selling major records. Speaking of Madonna, id argue her method was a bit better: continually trim down the fat and make the fanbase wait. Seems the only time it bit her in the ass is with this last LP which is a great run considering she's been fucking horrible since the 90s, lol (although production wise Confessions on a Dance Floor was a great album that stayed true to its word0

now let's start naming all the other artists who couldn't tour.. .

you can't be serious with that opener.

"I can't think of one artist who had a SOLID musical career who's touring income took a dive because of shitty modern product; it's a running joke that the Rolling Stones haven't dropped a good album in 3 decades."

Prince's record sales were pretty horrible all things considered, and imho if he trimmed the fat and released a 'blockbuster' album every 4-5 years he would still be selling major records. Speaking of Madonna, id argue her method was a bit better: continually trim down the fat and make the fanbase wait. Seems the only time it bit her in the ass is with this last LP which is a great run considering she's been fucking horrible since the 90s, lol (although production wise Confessions on a Dance Floor was a great album that stayed true to its word"

Actually they weren't. Even in the early nineties those records went Gold and Platinum.. .not the 25 million of Purple Rain but the bottom line is record companies have been robbing dudes.

Prince got them.
I'm riding for P on this one.
Fuck WB and Big Red Records Lol.

>now let's start naming all the other artists who couldn't
>tour.. .

Name em. There are plenty of nostalgia acts making bank. Hell, I just saw a punk band sell out a Mid tier NYC venue TWICE in a row when their last record was 15 years ago to an audience of probably 50 people, lol. NOBODY sells that many records in a period of time and can't tour; that's a lifetime fan base.

>Actually they weren't. Even in the early nineties those
>records went Gold and Platinum.. .not the 25 million of Purple
>Rain but the bottom line is record companies have been robbing
>dudes.

That's why I said 'all things considered'. During the 90's when N'Sync was going multiplatinum IN A WEEK, an artist of Prince's stature going just Gold wasn't a good look. Yeah, he's still around and rich and popular, but imagine if he just dropped 3 G-R-E-A-T albums during that decade as opposed to the equivalence of ten plus good to mediocre ones, lol.

Even great art sometimes needs editing.

>Prince got them.
>I'm riding for P on this one.
>Fuck WB and Big Red Records Lol.
>
>

exactly my point - a revolution started by Prince whether anyone wants to ever admit it or not.

first major artist to distribute an album on line.. there is a reason why you didn't see that band years ago but can see them now.

That was Prince's point. Even if he releases 5 albums in two years and they all go gold... forget a look.. WB made money.

He's right. They make money when he's sleeping off his music.
Of course they gonna cry you a river...

and again... NO... please don't even try man.

Rolling Stones? You use one the most legendary bands in the history of rock?

Try Living Color?
Try New Edition?
are they selling out arenas like Prince?
Freddie Jackson?
Hell even Luther before he passed?

Whitesnake?
Poison?
Ratt?

I could do this all day man. Sure a county fair here and there and billed up with ten other nostalgia acts sure they may be able to sell out an arena... MAYBE.

Commodores
Dazz Band
Zapp before Roger died.
PFunk?

No... all legends in their own right... all fighting to stay alive on the club circuit.

Hell before she passed even Whitney couldn't do what Prince was doing..

My point... is Prince took his superstardom and owned it... quite different from any band you may want to mention.

He's more successful than them ON HIS OWN - Prince won.

>exactly my point - a revolution started by Prince whether
>anyone wants to ever admit it or not.
>first major artist to distribute an album on line.. there is a
>reason why you didn't see that band years ago but can see them
>now.

Plenty of artists distributed albums online, id argue that Prince was a technophobe (remember his 'the internet is a fad' comments or his ruthless takedown of covers?) and only turned to online pushing & screaming. As it was said above, while his Slave movement is one any artist can ride with, dude was eating MUCH better then anyone else during the major label years, it was more of an L'enfant terrible move then a 'Artists the major label system sucks, so as one of the biggest artists let me take a stand'.



>Try Living Color?
>Try New Edition?
>are they selling out arenas like Prince?
>Freddie Jackson?
>Hell even Luther before he passed?
>Whitesnake?
>Poison?
>Ratt?

He was a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger act then all of these. Prince's touring viability would have been great either way; you don't own a whole decade musically then fall off the map as far as fanbase & people willing to shell out top dollar for a ticket, even if you suck NOW. All the nostalgia acts suck NOW, but they still sell the out. You don't want Rolling Stones Ill give you Van Halen, Ill give you U2, Ill give you Bon Jovi, Eagles, etc...




>I could do this all day man. Sure a county fair here and
>there and billed up with ten other nostalgia acts sure they
>may be able to sell out an arena... MAYBE.
>
>Commodores
>Dazz Band
>Zapp before Roger died.
>PFunk?
>
>No... all legends in their own right... all fighting to stay
>alive on the club circuit.
>
>Hell before she passed even Whitney couldn't do what Prince
>was doing..
>
>My point... is Prince took his superstardom and owned it...
>quite different from any band you may want to mention.
>
>He's more successful than them ON HIS OWN - Prince won.

Built off the fanbase he made when he was a willing corporate pawn. Ain't nobody specifically checking for him in concert for any of his post 80's work. My whole argument boils down to this; if he stayed with WB we would have a much stronger 90's discography. Anything else you want to argue is on you.

"Plenty of artists distributed albums online, id argue that Prince was a technophobe (remember his 'the internet is a fad' comments or his ruthless takedown of covers?) and only turned to online pushing & screaming. As it was said above, while his Slave movement is one any artist can ride with, dude was eating MUCH better then anyone else during the major label years, it was more of an L'enfant terrible move then a 'Artists the major label system sucks, so as one of the biggest artists let me take a stand'."

True, plenty of artists do, but Prince was the first. That's not like slang or anything - it's documented.

I do remember when he turned on the net - I think that was because he wanted focus on the live show - if you remember he was on tour when he said it. I know it was odd and the whole "the internet is dead" but that was also after he completely took advantage of it - hey I said he was innovative not an honest man lol.

Yeah the covers, the vids, sicking his lawyers on people but ya know what? The major labels are doing the same thing now aren't they?

Try posting a favorite video on youtube these days and good luck with that. lol.

Yes his first few years on his own were pretty bad, but ... he had to learn and he did.



>Try Living Color?
>Try New Edition?
>are they selling out arenas like Prince?
>Freddie Jackson?
>Hell even Luther before he passed?
>Whitesnake?
>Poison?
>Ratt?

"He was a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger act then all of these. Prince's touring viability would have been great either way; you don't own a whole decade musically then fall off the map as far as fanbase & people willing to shell out top dollar for a ticket, even if you suck NOW. All the nostalgia acts suck NOW, but they still sell the out. You don't want Rolling Stones Ill give you Van Halen, Ill give you U2, Ill give you Bon Jovi, Eagles, etc..."

Yeah but you are also giving me bands that stuck with their label - Prince didn't and he's on par with all these cats that's exactly my point.

Now let's not disregard the bands I mentioned cause my point with them was they all had success - gold records, platinum records.

We could go on and on.

TLC
Jodeci. I bet you will run out long before I will lol

You see I think the issue is people have funny ways of defining success to begin with but what Prince is doing now is nothing short of Dave Matthews success (I'm not a DM fan lol just for clarity) and Phish success (not really either lol). It's a different ball game, but one you just have to respect cause they completely own every angle of it. These dudes are selling out massive locations without any major label support. That's huge.



>I could do this all day man. Sure a county fair here and
>there and billed up with ten other nostalgia acts sure they
>may be able to sell out an arena... MAYBE.
>
>Commodores
>Dazz Band
>Zapp before Roger died.
>PFunk?
>
>No... all legends in their own right... all fighting to stay
>alive on the club circuit.
>
>Hell before she passed even Whitney couldn't do what Prince
>was doing..
>
>My point... is Prince took his superstardom and owned it...
>quite different from any band you may want to mention.
>
>He's more successful than them ON HIS OWN - Prince won.

"Built off the fanbase he made when he was a willing corporate pawn"

That's true but a much different argument. Even with WB P defied them every step of the way. It was his way from jump and that's one of the reasons it even worked. He was the real deal.

* rejecting Maurice White (a then superstar and superstar producer) for his very... FIRST record and telling his own label that's offering him millions, "I'll do it". Motherfucking rebel.
* rejecting doing what every black artist of the day was doing - funk/disco - and simply doing his own thing. Rebel.
* multi-racial band.
* releasing a single with no bass line. When Doves Cry.
* pushing the envelope on leaking records and giving fans access to unreleased shit - despite his own label that's giving him millions.
* releasing demo tapes - as albums - Dirty Mind
and on and on and on
flash fwd to now
* giving away an album with a ticket sale - counts as a record sale - he charts - pisses everyone in the industry off - again. REBEL.
* releasing an album to millions for free via a newspaper. REBEL.
* partnering with Verizon for a single and commercial - while this had been done before - it was never done by an independent artist.
* sellling out arenas across the globe and breaking records despite not having a new album available.
* being the first to sell an album online
* leaving his label and turning around and releasing a massively successful independent single "Beautiful Girl In the World"
* Let's not forget, as an Indie artist - he played the Superbowl, the Rock N Roll HOF, the Grammy's and each time - stole the show.
and on and on. Motherfucking Rebel.


".Ain't nobody specifically checking for him in concert for any of his post 80's work."

That's opinion - and not even worth mentioning considering he sells out left and right and makes millions in days. Just not really a valid point.

"My whole argument boils down to this; if he stayed with WB we would have a much stronger 90's discography. Anything else you want to argue is on you."

I mean I hear you and I know that's the going rate with most Prince fans and I used to think that way as well. Now I feel that Prince did exactly what Prince was supposed to do - his 90's discography has aged better than I expected and I have come to appreciate alot of the earlier 90's stuff. The 90's performances (the NPG lineup without those three dancing clowns) are incredible. Some of his best shit. Perhaps it was too mature for me as a kid I dunno but either way - he's here. He's winning.

He's a top seller and you just can't act like he didn't take the wheel and get the car back on the road. He did. I know man, horrible reference but that's all I got lol.

Also in this age of no one making money I argue he saw the future once again and realized where the money was. Without all this buzz from something going viral. *shrugs* - I see no loss whatsoever.

Say what you will, but it would have been a cold day in hell for you to get a free album from Mj, Van Halen, Whitney Houston or anyone else you could name under their masters leash.

A leak nothing - it would have really been like that South Park episode where the feds kicked in Kyle's door cause he downloaded some Judas Priest, Metallica, and some R&b records. lol

WB was right on two points: album sales and quality control.

Had P followed WB’s advice regarding his release rate, both of those would have been better.

Instead, P threw everything except the kitchen sink against the wall in the 90's and only a few things stuck.

Even hard core fans couldn’t keep up with the releases.

Casual fans started to lose track of him after the Love Symbol Album (w/”7”) and completely lost track of him after the MBGITW/Gold Experience debacle.

yeah towards the late 90s things weren't looking good...

but he did his thing
when he had to he stripped down the show
went minimal
hit the club circuit and kept grinding.

Yet he's more successful on the road now than he was during his PR years... you cannot just shake that.

Madonna stuck with the playbook her label gave her. But the majority of her moves were hers and hers alone. Not her labels.
She likened it to an actress working for a big time movie studio and constantly turning down bad scripts.

She's still successful.

Prince left his label... started his own... and there were hiccups.. but now he's surpassed her if you ask me as he's calling all the shots.

Not to mention his show sales equal hers in terms of the heavyweights.

I don't see how anyone could think he lost. This is just a different phase of his career but a wildly successful one.

Again, the last few albums for WB was widely suspected as throwaways to fulfill the contract. What happened post that - yeah there were alot of ups and downs - but you have to have courage to take that chance. He did. It paid off.

And if he ever sits down and gives an honest career retrospective, he would agree.
It just made no sense from a business perspective.

Eclectic Soul/Sunday, 2-4 PM est/89.3 WCSB.ORG

you see he had Money track, jewlery back in his 80's hey day, but he bought into his own hype after "diamonds and pearls.

and then he wanted to One Up Michael Jackson and Madonna with a contract he couldn't possibly match. why? because his prime and peak were over by then.

he should have taken a year or two off and put out Quality tracks over quanity.

i mean Warner Brothers was why he blew up like he did period.

arugably he he had the most freedom of almost any cat.

I mean RIck James and Lionel Richie had to prove themselves at Motown and they were selling a whole lot of records.

Michael Jackson even with thriller selling as it did had to fight to get a 7nth single released.

WHitney Houston had to do that song and dance with clive davis at times.


Prince had much freedom problem is Yes People and him putting out any and everything backfired and then he blamed everybody but himself.

90's through now its been over Produced, underwritten and alot of middle 2nd tier and 3rd tier material passed off as something to get with.

then to make matters worse this turkey is Pat Boone ing his own vault stuff and making it into a joke Vegas style.

yeah warners looks even better when you think about it because Prince doesn't even play hardly anything over the past 20 plus years when he tours.

he knows where his bread is buttered to make that money.

had he played it right and made quality over quanity then he might be looked at differently.

poor single choices and also alot of stuff that should have never been released.

at least he is tight as a Live Performer or he would be washing dishes with Georgio.

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lol....

I HATE PRINCE

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

and the 00's through now he is just a Legend who makes the rounds mainly playing 95% of his golden 80's material.

Warners allowed him to use stage names and allowance to have side projects and acts.

Warners loved that Negro. i mean who in there right mind would give a turkey a Budget for some Ingrid Chavez record or a Carmen Electria Album??

and Warners and Paisley sent me 5 different flyers back in 88 over Good Question who made the Boys come off like the second coming of the Jackson 5 in comparrison.

Warners was good to that Negro and he knows it. Problem is he has been surrounded by Yes People and fans for so long that he can't remember an objective opinion.

they put a allowance and also they told him no and while the Purple Kool Aid heads are slurping whatever, the rest of the universe while acknowledging his past greatness from back in the day and going to his shows ain't cared about no Prince new music in 20 plus years.

Quanity versus Quality Big difference.

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Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

Nah...u hate him....

You praise others for doing similar things that he has done...

And that's cool....It is what it is...Just be honest about it...The truth will set u free...

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

i give the man his due back in the day if you can read and acknowledge that part of him in the 80's.

however most sensible folks will tell you Prince's problem has been Quanity over Quality period.

i hardly hate the cat because i use to buy all of his stuff plus all the acts that came out of minneapolis when i was a kid.

you don't know what you are talking about where i'm concearned. because things differ from you you catch feelings.

truth is the only R&B act to come out of the 80's really intact and keep it together IMO was Frankie Beverly and Maze.

if Janet Jackson hadn't gotten so contrived and refused to up date her sound as a stylist she would have been the truth beyond, but she choked as well.

nobody from back then went unscathed or came off without taken a hit, however you don't read half the things i say so i wouldn't expect you to expand on it.

i dig Luther Vandross but like Prince IMO i couldn't tolerate hardly anything he put out past 88 IMO. strong live performer,etc.. but the material was hit and alot of miss and he settled for any and everything. he also put out to much music and those 90's onwards Vandross albums would have 2 tight cuts and about 6-7 corny or tired tracks.

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Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

but contrary to popular belief complete artistic freedom doesn't always result in the best results in terms of output.

A lot of these guys, whether it be Bob Dylan or Nas or and *especially* Prince aren't the best at reading/recognizing their own best work.

thing...is a bit ridiculous.

Allow them to get all out.
Allow them to make mistakes.
That's how they grow.

Otherwise they will Dangelo themselves and you'll have to wait 13 years for a 9 song album.

Fuck that.

>but contrary to popular belief complete artistic freedom
>doesn't always result in the best results in terms of output.
>
>A lot of these guys, whether it be Bob Dylan or Nas or and
>*especially* Prince aren't the best at reading/recognizing
>their own best work.


Nah...it's the same ol song and dance with Maxx, Bomb....

Notice...I never said he didn't make a decent point here and there...My issue is it's always all or nothing with dude....

I have my issues with Prince....I criticize him when warranted...In fact, I think WB did right by him for the most part in the '80s and allowed him to have his own playground...

My issue is with Maxx having a double standard for certain acts...It's comedy...And that's why I'm always going to pull his card when it comes to all things Prince....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

with everything you said.

Maxx dogs Prince.

to a much much much lesser talent like Rkelly?

lol.

I love Maxx's posts tho. lol

i ain't said nothing about no other artist in the post and i stayed on point and focused about Prince. problem is Purple heads get there ruffled shirts all pressed and wrinkled when you offer another side to the story.

what i always say about Prince is that He was badd back in the 80's and fell off. but so did others. matter of fact if you read my thread i said the same thing that happen to Prince also happen to Luther Vandross and in truth while its close between the two Luther's begging for pop acceptance was even worse than Prince's fall off because Luther just zapped the soul glow outtta his thing for the most part in the 90's onward. he had a few cuts i dug, however he lost his natural mind with crossing over and I loved some Luther musically RIP.

but anyway I always give Prince Props as a Live Performer and the past. i ain't never said he wasn't something else back in the day its just that i like other artists more and I moved on.

all acts back then pretty much fell off. only a few kept it moving.

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Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

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all I know. now i gotta go and listen to the Brian Mcknight song and chew on some Kit Kat.

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Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

all he said was the same as GumDrops for the most part.

Prince was on top of the world, but then got too greedy (it's right there in the subject). He had freedom afforded him as an artist by Warner Brothers, that other high-selling, popular artists of the period did not. Even Michael Jackson.

His ego got the best of him, and he wanted to trump ALL of them with the greatest record contract of them all. However, he had a commercial decline late in the 1980s and the material he was putting out in the 1990s was neither as strong nor did it recoup as fast as Warners might have liked, so they wanted to put things on a leash.

now do you ACCEPT to eat da POO POO, or are you tryna be funny style?

i know D&P sold a lot but to still pay out 100 million at that point was pretty generous, esp as WB must have known that if prince got pissed off, he wouldnt give them the hit album they wanted, and he didnt, which is how we got the come album lol.

but to get 10 million if the album sells 5 million isnt a bad deal. im just surprised that was even an offer from WB, and that prince took it. he must have known that he would be enslaving himself, but he still took the deal.

>but to get 10 million if the album sells 5 million isnt a bad
>deal. im just surprised that was even an offer from WB, and
>that prince took it. he must have known that he would be
>enslaving himself, but he still took the deal.

A contract which states you'll sell 5million units is absurd and really an indication of how we got to where we are today. When a record label is putting up $$$ with the expectation of a single artist move 5 Million units. It's just absurd.


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

sure, but he had just come off a big hit album, so he must have had leverage, but i get the sense he wanted to prove he was still a commercial hitmaker...

He clearly stated that if warner goes Gold - they still made a boatload of money.. .and if anything they were the one's being greedy. Cause they could care less about the music and were only focusing on sales/units. Did he buy into that starpower at some point in his career? Probably hard if not impossible not to but when he finally came around and realized what was going on... he realized it was just new age slavery.

Look at the terms in this post...

"WB allowed him freedom"

"they gave him more freedom than most"

all sound like Robots. He woke up, realized one very important critical detail... none of that... no one would make a dime... on a Prince contract... without Prince. So if anything any idea of freedom is all his. Not Warner's to give. They needed him more than he needed them.

Can you imagine how pissed they were after waging war on him, trying to make him seem as crazy as how Sony did Mike? Yet he still won.
He still sells out more now than he did then.

I'm down for Prince the rebel, fuck Warner Brothers.

Think of all the artists who sold millions of records.
Now think of the one's who actually got paid.
Ask the Chamber brothers, Pfunk, George what they think of these labels. Prince got them before they could get him - I don't see anything wrong with it. Fuck a better 90's discography lol

Prince is more punk rock than a punk rocker.
He's more hiphop than your favorite 'dance for a check' rapper.
He would never be anyone's house band for that matter.
So that says what?

>Prince is more punk rock than a punk rocker.
>He's more hiphop than your favorite 'dance for a check'
>rapper.
>He would never be anyone's house band for that matter.
>So that says what?

it doesnt mean hes rebellious.

and considering most of those business moves were risk takers with a huge possiblity of failure and no previous model to coast from..

NOPE.

Everything from his original deal
to Purple Rain
to Under The Cherry Moon (a risk that proved sour)
to Verizon
to the slave markings on his face
to changing his name to a symbol

man please. lol.

Not even debateable.

taken from my response to Big Reg -

* rejecting Maurice White (a then superstar and superstar producer) for his very... FIRST record and telling his own label that's offering him millions, "I'll do it". Motherfucking rebel.
* rejecting doing what every black artist of the day was doing - funk/disco - and simply doing his own thing. Rebel.
* multi-racial band.
* releasing a single with no bass line. When Doves Cry.
* pushing the envelope on leaking records and giving fans access to unreleased shit - despite his own label that's giving him millions.
* releasing demo tapes - as albums - Dirty Mind
and on and on and on
flash fwd to now
* giving away an album with a ticket sale - counts as a record sale - he charts - pisses everyone in the industry off - again. REBEL.
* releasing an album to millions for free via a newspaper. REBEL.
* partnering with Verizon for a single and commercial - while this had been done before - it was never done by an independent artist.
* sellling out arenas across the globe and breaking records despite not having a new album available.
* being the first to sell an album online
* leaving his label and turning around and releasing a massively successful independent single "Beautiful Girl In the World"
* Let's not forget, as an Indie artist - he played the Superbowl, the Rock N Roll HOF, the Grammy's and each time - stole the show.
and on and on. Motherfucking Rebel.

That's not rebellious? Then you don't know what rebellious is. I don't even mean that as snark either - I honestly think most people and artists have become passive, comfortable, and all about the big dollar. They wouldn't dare buck the system - it's likely we will never see another Prince ever for that reason alone.

sure

after 1990 or so though, its not corporate rebellion, its just playing the game smarter than other artists.

i give him credit for that.

but true rebelliousness would have been to go totally indie. did he ever do that? or did he just get into bed with the majors? he did it on his own terms, sure, but he was almost always in bed with the industry. prince was better at playing the game on his own terms but he wnever stopped playing the game.

>but true rebelliousness would have been to go totally indie.
>did he ever do that? or did he just get into bed with the
>majors?

he did both. he got in bed w/EMI (Emancipation), Arista (Rave), Columbia (Musicology) & Universal (3121). but he also had independent releases, like Rainbow Children, Crystal Ball, Lotus Flower & 20Ten.

fuck you.