... within the scope of music.

I mean lets be real what you did was some truly revolutionary shit, even if there were precedents to it decades before, it took you to really turn it into a true musical movement. I mean if we're honest with ourselves this latter day ressurection of electronic music no matter how inevitable it was, is indebted to you for setting the stage.

You took the bad boyness of rock to epic proportions that yacht rock couldn't even imagine. You turned a phrase with the ease that jazz cats spent lifetimes practicing to barely achieve. And the thing is that for the most part you did it unkowningly because you were so wrapped up in your isolationist type perception that all that existed in the world was you.

There were the rebels amongst you that brought in the outside influences of course, but only long enough to sample and take ownership of. Not that this was an intentional snipe mind you, but in the (proto) cultural value base it was what it was. It was taking ownership of music, in a way that was never imagined (except for you know those obscure european guys in suits who are otherwise irrelevant).

But that isolated view point kept you from seeing music *beyond how you could use it*. There was no broader context. Everything had to be placed within the hip-hop context. Everything had to be redefined. Except only you readily accepted those definitions. Outside of the circle nobody cared.

That of course didn't stop some of the actual redefinitons from happening. Much of the things you were once critiqued for have now been wholeheartedly embraced outside of hip-hop, as redefined by hip-hop. Take the drum break for example. All of the classic loops and breakbeats that come in all those presets with your software program today. Yeah you can thank hip-hop for cannonizing those. They sued you for looping it, then created an industry around looping!!! An industry!!!

While all this was happening you were so busy worried about protecting the real (while defining and redefining it) you missed the music. When you said it's bigger than hip-hop, you should have been talking about music. But you were talking about social things like how to present oneself in hip-hop. Only you cared about that. Everyone else just loved the beat.

Then there was all the fragmentation while trying to hold on to this definition of self. Jeeze louise. You couldn't find so much in fighting in a barrel of crabs sitting next to a pot like the one ol boy tried to cook bugs bunny in over an open fire. But then it hit you that all this keeping it real stuff didn't matter, and thank goodness for that, except that you replaced that not with music, but with fame. Now you're all going gaga over the fame teat.

Meanwhile what have you been doing musically. Either throwing back to times that nobody outside of yourself really cared about when they were hot in order to keep it real, or being owned by whatever sound is hot at the moment to try to boost your fame.

YOU YOU YOU!! It's all about you, very rarely the music. So stuck on yourself its any wonder everyone thinks you're in a rut. C'mon now, no need to run down all your pop star acheivements or talk about how one of the real heads dropped that dope LP. You know what the fuck I'm talking about. You don't think you do? Don't make me say it....

... oh alright.

That's why the outsiders have gotten better at the things that you do than you. Yup I said it. And I'm not talking better at making classic boom bap or some shit. I'm talking about making music. They are better at making music than you are. Cause that's what you do right hip-hop? Make music? That's what I'm talking about. The outsiders are better at making music with the tools you created than you are.

You're still sampling the records they browsed in their loop library when they first launced their cracked software. So they sample bees and shit (ping pong tables omg!! ) All your drums still sound the same. Well that's kinda cross the bored, but you don't even make an effort to hide it anymore. They weren't limited by copyright laws (or gave a fuck about them in most cases) because they didn't have to keep it real a dig up that hot loop to make a song. They just made a song, and then sampled you shouting "Whoa" to go over it. Think about that hip-hop. Then it becomes hot and you have to go to them as a guest to stay relevant. Think about that hip-hop.

You could learn a little about sacrifice hip-hop. Not that you haven't sacrificed a lot already, well socially. But musical sacrifice. I'm not saying go learn music theory, fuck that you deaded that shit when you came in the door. But I am saying stop taking yourself so damn serious. Take music as serious as you do yourself and maybe just maybe you might find the muse pushing you towards innovation again.

kthxbai

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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

entertain me with your allegations.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Now explain what your restraining order is protecting you against? Music? You want hip-hop protected from music. Is that what you're saying?
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

i assume you mean the critiques, which you know is dogmatic, which is again a sign of being to full of yourself.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

if u think that's undeserved bc of the scope of my taste...cool

but i dont post abt every song i listen to and enjoy

>Now explain what your restraining order is protecting you
>against?

your stalkerish letter to hip-hop


Music? You want hip-hop protected from music. Is
>that what you're saying?

hip hop IS music, wtf are u saying?

youre the one who divorced hip hop from music, not me

>________
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one
>thing, a musician." © Miles Davis
>
>"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

i'm not talking about philpot, i'm talking about hip-hop, based on you saying if you were hip-hop.... blah blah blah. if we break out of character this isn't gonna work at all.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

point's the same

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

then i have to question whether you read the og post, because i never took music away from hip-hop, and gave it plenty of credit for the musical innovations. i even distinctly through lines in there to keep it from being driven down the hip-hop production versus musicianship hole. it was open and honest criticism. if you think that's stalkerish, it sounds like you're projecting to be a victim of something i've done rather than look at yourself.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

the reports of its demise are highly exaggerated

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

as compared to "music" of course

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

and i never compare it to 'music'.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

your first fucking point reads "within the scope of music" hiphop took itself too seriously

use language all u want, shit's clear see thru

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

"hip-hop" and "music" in the same sentence which is the lead off sentence of a post from imcvspl.... fuck that dude.

Meanwhile I acknowledged that:

* hip-hop did something rock couldn't
* hip-hop did something jazz couldn't
* hip-hop did something pioneer electronic artists couldn't
* hip-hop paved the way for the birth of industries
* hip-hop paved the way for this era of electronic acceptance
* hip-hop trumped music theory

that's all i remember without rereading. i said all of that though. and the bulk of my critique is that its self importance hindered it, one thing.

maybe in the twilight zone in bizarro world when you say the laundry list of one thing it actually means the opposite.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Like how you do that. Maybe if your parent was abusive. But that's hardly the case. If anything this is one of the most liberal parents in the world.

But you don't think of music as your parent do you. You think you're equals. Again taking yourself so serious, you can't even honor thy parents.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

hip hop has its own kids now

you addressed that in your letter

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Noone Ever Really Leaves Their Parents Until Their Parents Leave
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

decades ago somebody was writing this letter to rock and roll...or jazz...or something else

again, you divorced hiphop from music first

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

do you think there are no valid points made in the op? just wondering.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

hide behind them

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

you should know by now i always leave those.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

care to site some proof?

that of course based on my main premise being that hip-hop was too self-absorbed.

oh and 'in the context of music" was as opposed to "in a social context" which is a completely different discussion.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>care to site some proof?

the wealth of free music that hip hop artists have made available for free

the communal spirit ive seen among ppl ive known who love hiphop


>that of course based on my main premise being that hip-hop was
>too self-absorbed.

"in the context of music"


>oh and 'in the context of music" was as opposed to "in a
>social context" which is a completely different

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

>the wealth of free music that hip hop artists have made
>available for free
>
>the communal spirit ive seen among ppl ive known who love
>hiphop

FOH!! LOL!

>>that of course based on my main premise being that hip-hop
>was
>>too self-absorbed.
>
>"in the context of music"
>
>
>>oh and 'in the context of music" was as opposed to "in a
>>social context" which is a completely different

Are you done? Or should I assume these snippets form the totality of what you took from what i wrote.

oh and I don't have a ™ on 'music'. it's just you know this word that describes you know any and all 'sysstems' of 'organizing' 'sounds' *shrug*

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Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

pointless

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Why is everyone writing an essay on hip hop?

>Why is everyone writing an essay on hip hop?

I got tired of just addressing MC's though.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
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"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

™ Common circa 1994.
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Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

not in the way that jazz, or soul, or blues, or R&B did anyway. i cant see (m)any of the ways hip hop influenced music outside hip hop in a good way. theres a few examples here and there, a few blips, but apart from that, nah.

though im obv thinking of how it didnt affect any of the genres already existing before it in a good way.

cos without hip hop you wouldnt have drum n bass, grime, dubstep, and half the electronic stuff happening today (though dance music is obv just as important, probably more important in that context, and dance is actually more fluid in terms of how it can be appropriated, hip hop influences tend to end up in pretty restricted ways, like how you have those awful 'hip hop drums' in some of lana del rays songs) etc. hip hop and dance music are basically the most important/influential musics of the last 30 years. and part of the reason for that is cos they werent made in the traditional way music before them was made and it didnt sound like it.

'While all this was happening you were so busy worried about protecting the real (while defining and redefining it) you missed the music. When you said it's bigger than hip-hop, you should have been talking about music. But you were talking about social things like how to present oneself in hip-hop. Only you cared about that. Everyone else just loved the beat.'

^^thats just cos a lot of rappers didnt have anything to say for themselves other than self reflexive content. well that and also just cos when you think about how hip hop started as battling, and about actual physical battles in the bronx, its no wonder it carried on in the lyrics, with rappers more interested in taking apart other rappers rather than talk about something bigger than that.

Did hip hop influence modern jazz, rnb, rocknroll, blues?

I remember the first time I heard Bruce Springsteen's 'Streets of Philadelphia'. 1993....not even a great song. But you could tell someone was trying to incorporate a hip hop style in that production. At the time, I figured it was Bruce.

The rest of the 90's you heard hip hop inspired 'breaks' like the OP suggests, creeping into pop and easy listening. Now it's absolutely commonplace. Even in new country.

But modern jazz and blues are mostly defined as throwback scenes anyways. So hip hop CANT really influence them because their nostalgic base is aiming to recreate music from the past.

Hip hop used to be a joke to outsiders....on par with the reputation of a genre like dub-step. Noone would take you seriously. Everyone takes it seriously now....60 year old engineers and studio rats respect it alot more now than 20 years ago.

all are making forward thinking jazz music that is hip-hop influenced.

>all are making forward thinking jazz music that is hip-hop
>influenced.

Mongo Santamaria's original and the spinoffs followed one motif for the most part. But when I heard Glasper's... I was thinking, "someone may not have thought of that arrangement if not for rap music".

And I'm not just talking about Nu-metal but also stuff like groove-thrash (think Pantera) was indirectly or directly inspired by Hip-Hop's rhythmic sensibilities.

And just like metal-influences, blatant Hip-Hop influences are useless outside of its own context with vERY few exceptions IMO...

when you consider the standard boom bap beat is really not actually very complex, its the most basic, repetitive beat ever. it might be funky, but its really simplistic. i loved my bloody valentines loveless for example but sampled 'gritty' drums used by non-rap artists often just sounded leaden, like it was weighing the rest of the parts down. the best example of hip hop on jazz i can think of is MMW's the dropper, as it was engineered like a rap album, but they didnt try and sound hip-hop in any other way. i wish more people did that. they were smart.

new jack swing i guess was made more funky by hip hop drums but once hip hop got out of the funky drummer era, and boiled itself down to its more essential parts, the 'hip hop beat' started to get pretty simple and ploddy (though obv not as ploddy as eminem beats). im having trouble recalling good examples of jazz, soul or rock using hip hop production in a good way.

ironically i think modern non sampled rap has had a much more positive effect, as its easier to adapt by producers in a different way. its much more conducive to putting your own spin on it than boom bap. no wonder that hip hop has really entrenched itself more around the globe and spawned more interesting regional rap spin offs since boom bap started to wane (thats my theory at least).

You could make a case for Timbaland and Neptunes and maybe even the Cash Money and Swizz Beats-sounds being a modern-as opposed to 80's (think Mantronix)-foundation for that but at least Timbaland sounded very inspired by "EDM" and many of the newer producers people dig sound like they-intentionally or not-are inspired more by 90's "IDM" than Hip-Hop.

BTW, I have a theory that one of the reasons electronic dance music has come to stay this time in the US is because unlike the attempt of making electronica the new cutting-edge thing in the 90's ("Electronica is the new punk/rock/whatever") it has entered the US scene through the *mainstream*/pop-scene with the producers I mentioned above setting the stage for the sound and then entering the underground styles from "above" rather than the opposite which is less organic and more aimed at "cool" and "eclectic" music-fans building the foundation. In the 90's, that pretty much meant guitar-centered indie-rock fans in the US for whom it was nothing but a temporary diversion...

Alot of the nuances and allusions are completely accurate to me....

But I fail to see how the isolationism and identity-driven aspects of hip hop culture aren't comparable to those in other emerging genres of any artform...film, painting, fashion. Best example would be rocknroll. You addressed the comparison without seeing that many of the characteristics you identify are easily applicable to the 'fashion' or 'attitude' in the emergence of rocknroll.

I don't think hip hop, as a genre, is unique in how you've described it here. But I think the description is very nuanced and profound.

Miles called bebop 'a lifestyle'. It'd be easier for me to name genres that HAVENT been referred to as a 'lifestyle' while they were gaining steam.

Jordan!

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whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

and if you prefer your electronic/dub-step/beat-gen musicians more good for you. as you stated. they are eating/creating from the dish hip hop served the world

of hip-hop in mind among more than ever.

how there are still quite a few "areas" Hip Hop sampling hasn't experimented enough with IMO like ambient music, echoes, wordless vocalization and similar stuff
but yeah I agree Hip Hop is in dire need of a new shift sonically

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++last man standing takes a seat+++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.last.fm/user/chillhood

What specifically would you change? No snark just trying to understand

to be honest, i don't think that hip-hop could have been so outstanding not only lyrically but musically if it *hadn't* been 'outcast' from the clique of 'traditional music'.

the whole mainstream acceptance of hip-hop was born out of a need to contextualize the energy in hip-hop music into something more streamlined and in a way pop and palatteable and smooth than what was generally accepted as pop or traditional music.

i agree with you that the lack of traditional 'practice' or methods to make hip-hop have hurt hip-hop because there's both no formal way to train people to develop techniques to further the art form and there's also no means to de-construct the process on a wide scale to determine better and more expressive ways, both in terms of intensity and in variety, to make the music.

i think in the past, hip-hop could get away with the formality of the informalness of the development of skills to make it because not only was the culture more contained, there were only so many outlets to consume it or learn about it, so it was kind of self-policed. now, there are so many outlets and means to learn that there aren't the 'guides' to point towards what is good or not.

hip-hop could develop an actual culture, if the ways of the old were passed on to the new generation. kinda how producers used to come up in New York where a producer would find a sound, get some popularity, buy some equipment that most people wouldn't have access to and share their knowledge with up-and-coming producers who had an ear for what was popular. in that approach, the older producer could pass on their ear for quality and their tried-and-true methods of the actual producing and the younger producers could build off of that.

now, since the technology to make the music is so affordable and accessible, kids can make beats, ship it off to youtube or a blog to get approval in really 'not enough time'. i think to get good at something you need the isolation of practice to not only make mistakes but also to develop your craft. it's not desirable in terms of making affecting music for the creators to gain fame before skill because everyone wants fame, but if they gain it too early, it's all they will know how to do is to please the audience rather than develop the craft to share the thoughts of the creators with their audience.

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http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker

__________________________________________

http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker