When the sampling laws became so restrictive and cost prohibitive that it became near impossible to continue hh producers either had to A)learn to chop and disguise their stuff
or
B)Start messin w/ synths
or
C)go to live instruments

if not they just died off like dinosaurs

who are those producers that never turned the corner and mastered any or all of the above?

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

.

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

He was never one of those guys who chopped-up or manipulated the samples too much (well, he did the low-pass filtered basslines pretty damn well). Instead, he was pretty much the textbook definition of the rare groove Dj as a producer:A guy who knew all the cool breaks, loops and basslines and had the *ear* to put them together nice. I heard many times that he could ask for a shitload of money for a beat despite never really making mainstream hits. All of a sudden, his knowledge is not just played out but downright irrelevant... Maybe he can still live off that song he produced on ''the Score''.

I didnt want to just come out and say his name in the subject tho as people would think I was crapping on him

when SBHH dropped he was all the rage. it was being touted as an instant classic (which it is) and he was immediatly put into the same catagory as Primo,RZA, QTip, PR etc...

as time went on tho all of his peers have adjusted their sounds to reflect not only the tastes and trends of the market but also have leared to work with samples less exstensivly or learned how to chop and disguise their samples. Thus they have stayed viable.

Unfortunatly he hasnt updated his skill set or atleast he waited too long to. Ive heard some of his non sampled beats and they arent good enough to distinguish themselves from any other new jack prod beats.

I wonder how and why did this happen?

cats were choppin rare french records and he was stil loopin David Axelrod

Its hard to feel sorry for him. its as if he rested on his laurals and ignored what was going on in hip hop outside of his own studio. Even his 2nd record didnt pack as much punch because he tried the SAME formula as the first but hip hop had changed.

that being said scenarios like this are why IMO he isn't a top tier prod; takeing nothing away from SBHH but beyond that and a few singles he is just average when compared to his peers

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

He was trying to fit in by using lower BPM's and a more "serious"/moody delivery but my favourite song off there was probably "Gather round" which sounded like an outtake from the debut and pretty "dated" in the context of the late 90's.

Also, he tried the Puffy-thing on a few songs (that "Can't keep my grands to myself"-song? YUCK!). I still dug the record as a whole but it was not close to the debut...

their wasnt that progresion PR made from Mecca to MI

he didnt master synths like RZA did from 36 to Forever

its like he used all his ace in the hole records the first time out

but now when he was left on his own the covers were pulled off him

HIS skills on their own tho were suspect

have u heard any of his solo stuff?

the Hugh Hefner Chronicles? LOL really Diamond, really?

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkqBfTJqYqA

P.MONCH SHINE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCFxldvqNKM

You slap the nigga(DRAKE) five n he gon moisturize ya palms nahmean!-BIG GHOST NAHMEAN!

....maybe not favorite all time, but that shit is incredible

replies stating that someone would have to be ignorant to not recognize that sampling culture is thriving....so, I don't want to celebrate sampling dying just yet....though I hope sampling does die a quick death.

more so I am remembering some of the producers who relied exclusivly on sampling but who couldn't find a way to "adjust" and still be creative working w/o strait loops

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

.

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

and that it was just time for something new. people just got tired of boom bap.

some people may never grow tired of it

then their are always the younger generation who gets introduced to it and likes

theirs also the foreign market
etc...

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

boom baps reign basically ended quite a while ago

not much boom bap on the new nicki minaj album for instance.

and i would even go so far as to say that using a sample loop (like on that jeezy/drake/jay-z song) doesnt necessarily = boom bap

just cos its got a loop, dont make it boom bap troop, as guru sort of said

you actually using Nicki Minaj as a representative of how hip hop music has "grown" because it lack boom bap???





>boom baps reign basically ended quite a while ago
>
>not much boom bap on the new nicki minaj album for instance.
>
>and i would even go so far as to say that using a sample loop
>(like on that jeezy/drake/jay-z song) doesnt necessarily =
>boom bap
>
>just cos its got a loop, dont make it boom bap troop, as guru
>sort of said
>
>

i said it had CHANGED

and it has

the guys that think boom bap will never die, sure, it will always be around, people will always like it, and big name artists will return to it on occasion, do a few token old school sounding tracks on each album, but as the main form of hip hop, as the dominant sound of hip hop, as its default mode, boom baps time was quite a long time ago now.

as for minaj, she was just the example i used to explain how if even one of the biggest rap artists today doesnt even do the token boom bap song on her album, it just shows that it doesnt mean what it used to.

not sure how this is even arguable tbh.

charging more.

**********
"Hey, man, salute to all the beautiful doctors, everybody that�s researching and helping find cures. Salute to everyone who�s finding cures to diseaaaases. Everybody that�s aiding the people. -Lil B

reasonable after the fact.

Like if you straight jack the Rolling Stone's I can't get no, with all the trademark licks and what not, you pay out 95% of whatever biz

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

AND Wu was so big 93-97 he could afford his samples/chops. he was actually one of the first sample based producers to attempt to move towards chords/synths and incorporation of live instrumentation to great and really bad results.

i just dont like those light ass TR 909 drums
that seem to be the THING nowadays..
i can appreciate a dope chord change but a sample flip will ALWAYS be
f*ckin amazing to me..

but yeah thats just me..

hiphop is a sampling sport

___________________________
http://www.soundcloud.com/cb010
https://soundcloud.com/kofitheunkn0wn

>i just dont like those light ass TR 909 drums
>that seem to be the THING nowadays..
>i can appreciate a dope chord change but a sample flip will
>ALWAYS be
>f*ckin amazing to me..
>
>but yeah thats just me..
>
>hiphop is a sampling sport
>
>


__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

Sampling is better than not sampling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mt3vZHDiM8&feature=player_detailpage

If you don't know how to play an instrument, you can either:

A) Take lessons

B) Sample/record someone who can

Three-note keyboard patterns over stiff drum sounds and an 808 bass hit?

LOL that shit should've been dead years ago.

To each his own, however. I can talk about the merits of sampling all day, break down techniques, give examples, whatever.

But at the end of the day.....some people just like simple ass shit. They liked "Laffy Taffy." They defend Swizz Beatz. They listen to the radio. They always think "newer" = "better."

*shrug*

Bowls
http://twitter.com/Bowls615

>But at the end of the day.....some people just like simple ass
>shit. They liked "Laffy Taffy." They defend Swizz Beatz.
>They listen to the radio. They always think "newer" =
>"better."
>
>*shrug*

It's funny though, because you'll notice that most peoples' favorite beats are the ones that use samples. Now obviously this is completely subjective, but you can't help but notice that a lot of people find a quality in hip hop that uses samples. This is a BIG reason that kids and teenagers that just got into hip hop fucking love 90's East Coast rap. There's a good reason as to why people love The Blueprint or College Dropout and see them as stand out records, they were released at a time when sampling became rare and expensive for the main stream.

Some people don't like sampling and feel it is morally irresponsible and reprehensible, others aren't total idiots and actually see the artistic merits of it. I'm fine with disagreeing with the former without a need to argue my points, they're a waste of my time anyway. But hip hop is an art that uses sampling, and sounds much better when it does than when it doesnt (exceptions include the Neptunes and Timbaland, of course)

you took words out of my mouth...agree 100%

"Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds."-Albert Einstein

http://twitter.com/#!/TonyHanesPoetry

theyre not clamoring to hear laffy taffy now. the record doesnt stand up.
they want the next thing radio is cramming down their throat every 7 minutes

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

laffy taffy type beats were hot for a split second, then cats got better.

I loooove samples, but some of the original music today is pretty damn good

>laffy taffy type beats were hot for a split second, then
>cats got better.
>

CATS GOT BETTER

yes that is possible, so let go of the crap (sampling) and get better.

k?

I mean, sample interpolation is still a form of sampling, and some str8 up loops are still interesting, when done well...chopping is relatively infinite as a production technique (Gotta have it on watch the throne is ill as shit, for example).

I just laugh when cats characterize music as sampled or laffy-taffy bullshit. That ain't the case at all

If you don't like sampling.

of progress. Creating your own stuff is progress. I'm on the side of progress. Create your own stuff, record your own stuff and chop that if you must.

I just did a Henry Threadgill Zooid post, so that should tell anyone where my "listening to the right type of music" thing is.

I honestly don't keep up with most new rap. The internet's endless sea of music drowned me a few years ago.

If it can't hold up to the standard that G-Funk and Organized Noize set in the mid-to-late 90's, I probably won't be able to fuck with it.

Ironically, I fuck with a lot of the simpler sample-based beats that sound like they could've been played live. The fact that the melody could've came from a 1981 electronic LP has always been dope to me. Shit like the "We Here" beat off the Illa J album, for example.

Kraftwerk drums
LA Express synth
A "simple" bassline

I don't know, that shit is just nuts. I guess it's all in the ear. Plus I'm a record nerd, so you already know I'm repping for the samples!

Bowls
http://twitter.com/Bowls615

Out west and down south pretty much always had live instruments along with samples. I think that's why that music doesn't sound as dated. Large Pro, Pete Rock, diggin in the crates, etc all got dealt the death blow once sampling went out the window. Even Premier and that's my nigga. Primo got to the point where he'd chop a sample up so much that it didn't even sound like music.

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

peep his instrumental cds for proof

he's got some stuff that will blow your mind that doesnt have his 90's stamp all over it

I think he still makes quality beats useing samples but they are incorporated into the music

otherwise I agree with your premise about west coast and southern hip hop not sounding as dated

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

Sampling laws played a part yes,

Also I think the stereotype and perception of rap/hip-hop's "We Get Money" culture hurt. Because alot of the old heads had this perception that if one of 'those rappers' sample any of their shit..they like "Shit Im about to go to the bank!", not realizing most of the hip-hop artist thats sampling them like that are underground artist..and NOT the Jay's, Snoop's and Em's of the world..

This maybe just my perspective, but the emergence and takeover in software based production has made it less 'fun' to sample. I know with me all these programs have the slicer and chopper tools in them...and you run a sample through that boy..chop it up..throw some drums on it and call it a day. It's definitely not as adventurous as creating from scratch with the software synths or bringing in live instruments..

So alot of the sampling vets prolly on some been/there done that tip and just wading the water hoping the tide will change back to a demand in sampling..

>This maybe just my perspective, but the emergence and takeover
>in software based production has made it less 'fun' to sample.
>I know with me all these programs have the slicer and chopper
>tools in them...and you run a sample through that boy..chop it
>up..throw some drums on it and call it a day. It's definitely
>not as adventurous as creating from scratch with the software
>synths or bringing in live instruments..

all of that is completely subjective. hardware has most if not the same tools. something doesnt need to be difficult to be fun or fulfilling

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

>something doesnt need to be difficult to be
>fun or fulfilling

https://twitter.com/chuck4prez

is it difficult when you sex your old lady?

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

Yes, It is subjective. I also know Im not the only one that gets off on the pursuit, the chase or the process of production just as well as the finished creation.

I mean that was part of the joy of diggin, but now you got known crate diggin legends that have said they haven't been diggin in YEARS, on some "ohh it's not the same, I got all the records already"..ect

Not trying to sound like a Bruce Lee psychologist here, but I would think at a certain point in a person's craft they search and thirst for new challenges as to not stay stagnant.

So a producer like a Kanye or Just Blaze who built their career off sampling (and actually have the money to sample) doesn't do it NEARLY as much. Creatively they are onto other things.

With "Otis", NO ID said in a interview (I think XXL) he had to damn near twist Kanye's arm and MAKE him do that record, Ye made that shit is like 15 minutes on some "Okay here, are you happy? Now let me get back to my Niggas IN Paris shit.."

and the changed in the laws over the years on how it affected the music. It came out a couple ears ago in '09. Got De La, Bomb Sqaud, Q-Bert alot of cats..

Here is go if you didn't see it
https://vimeo.com/9958864

#PicABeat Audio Photo series. Where the beat is inspired by the photo.
http://soundcloud.com/KingAkai

http://kingakai.com

“I love these bitches, man. I really do.”
- Andre 3000

******************************************
Falcons, Braves, Bulldogs and Hawks

Geto Boys, Poison Clan, UGK, Eightball & MJG, OutKast, Goodie Mob

hes so full of himself.

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

undeniably.

Madlib laughs at this post

.

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

.

And Jake One?

He flipped the entire essence of sampling, by having the instruments played, or playing them himself, then sampling the sound. I thought his entire White Van Music was a album full of samples, until I read the story behind it.

Cats got lazy.

Dilla could play the drums and Keys. Lib can to, and I think Jake One can play as well.

There are ways around sampling laws to where you can still sample, but you have to be creative with it...

Knxwledge samples like crazy. Star Slinger samples like crazy. Dibia$e samples like crazy.Flying Lotus samples like crazy...

Don't get me wrong, sampling laws did injure the art and creativity of sampling to a certain extent, but it didn't eradicate sampling. However, those one trick pony producers got introduced to the door once they realized that they had to take their game to the next level.

I personally feel that Dilla came along and crushed the science of sampling, and created other doors by doing so, and the aforementioned artists came through those doors, while a lot of boom bap beat makers got left behind.

i dont think madlib would have risen to the prominence he has if not for
the conditions sampling exist in.
it helped to create his niche

if he was making hits with Kanye i gaurentee you all the publishing companies will be BALLS DEEP � Hodgetwins

i was just thinking the same thought this morning while listening to 'dah shinin'. dudes did not have a style conducive to change.

yep....there it is.

dudes did not have a style
>conducive to change.

--------------------
"Good hair"-Uzi

1619 the 1st slaves are brought to American shores
thus begins the phrase �mine is better than yours?� (huh?)
forced to serve-too broke to by freedom
the systematic rape of African culture has begun
little time

(with no disrespect to hip hop producers) other electronic artists are mostly doing original productions. part of that has to do with the lack of vocals, and needing to keep a track fresh for 6 minutes to entertain a dancefloor without an MC. hip hop beats were mostly just a backdrop for an emcee to spit over. id love to see the same amount of depth and complexity from a hip hop producer. kanye has come close in recent efforts, but i still dont feel his beats so much.

-----------------------------
http://www.shenzhenphotos.com

conversely, most (not all) of those dudes cant make an authentic bangin hiphop beat

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

lies

Daedelus can make one
SamIYam can flip one
Onra's chinoseries is bananas.....serious hip hop like beats
fly lo has flipped some original boom bap before
knxwledge....the list goes on and on

you are buggin hard toast style. Y'all niggas are trying to make excuses for cats who have fallen off.

distorted bleeps and bloops, that lack melody and harmony over phat drums DOES NOT make one better than a hip hop producer.

and yes im exaggerating, just like you where speaking in hyperbole

The proverbial mr.negro please. : )

onra boom bap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inpKcke4hQU&feature=relmfu

onra electric beat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCS96cBgn3Q&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2OkP4GXa-k&feature=related

Most electric beat artist started off making boom bap beats or breakbeats..

cmon


Boom bap is easier to make than the multiple layering, punching, and interpolation that is required in an electric beat track.

point is i hate this bullshit about so and so better becuase he makes layered electronic compositions rather than just loops and chops. its dumb

like welfare

fuck em theyll never learn

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

that the streets feel. coincidence?

-------------------------
�The other dude after me didn�t help my case. It was just like�crazy nigga factory going on.�
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. �I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,� he says. �Never did.�-- Andre B

I kinda feel like sampling will always be the true art form of hip hop and here's why:

So much of the feel of hip hop in its essence is created by the musical tension that samples and loops can create by their pitch or time being ever so slightly "off" from the beat, in the traditional musical sense. But this off-ness is something new and beautiful created by sampling something old that was once live instruments. And as much as we may try to recreate these feels and sounds through live instruments (like our boys in the Roots do) I think even the dude Ahmir would agree that we can never quite capture it perfectly the way an ill sample does.

So, I think that along with the producers who have mastered sampling, the true feel and essence of hip hop kind of either evolves or dies along with it. We've definitely seen some crazy shit come out of producers who are masters with the synths and live instruments... I'm not denying that. But to me, it will just never compare to the way that dilla chopped and mixed samples in a way that made you feel something cosmic was in that music.

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Why do you guys insist on living in a box, a huge one at that?

Music evolves, and nothing stays the same. That is evolution. Sound will not remain the same and hold on to a constant state to appease a certain group of listeners or followers. As new ideas develop, so will the sounds that are born from them.

Dilla has come and gone, but his sounds are still with us, and people have evolved from that sound...

People have evolved from the golden era of hip hop.

Shit radiohead went from alternative rock to pure electric, and they sound better electric than they did when they were alternative( my take)


I'm a dilla head, but I hear shit in this era that gives me the same feeling that dilla's music gives me.

Fragmentation is a good thing, just ask Miles Davis....somewhere he is smiling

u sound mad and frustrated

all ur whining abt boxes is hypocrisy bc ur tryna put hiphop in a box too, what u call evolution others view as diluting

"we" believe that sampling is the essential sound of hip hop musically

or its just our preference and we kno its essential and will last forever, get over it

for example, im not mad at jazz fusion but hard bop is still the jazz sound i love the most...it is wat it is

stop gettin upset bc ppl dont like wat u do and support wat they do like

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

Hey, we're debating here, no need to take it to a level of acrimony. Ease up on the name calling.


You realize I am not against sampling? I like samples. My point is music is not limited to that, which is why Madlib is still making incredible shit, because he does everything, and so does Jake One.


Also you do realize that Afrika Bambatta was making electric beat rap music before cats started making boom bap?

So electric beat music is closer to the roots of old school hip hop than
boom bap is.

The shit Mantronix was doing, and the shit that Man Parrish put out, that shit was all electric beat music, same thing goes for Herbie Hancock's rocket....


That's the reason why I love so much of the eletric beat stuff because it takes me back to the sounds of Arthur Russell, DNA, Glenn Branca, Liquid Liquid, ESG, Afrika B, Mantronix, etc .....

Hip Hop started off with keyboards and synthesizers, then came the MPC and SP1200

.

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

>Hey, we're debating here, no need to take it to a level of
>acrimony. Ease up on the name calling.


"dude" is the only name i called u

>
>You realize I am not against sampling? I like samples. My
>point is music is not limited to that, which is why Madlib is
>still making incredible shit, because he does everything, and
>so does Jake One.
>

see i KNEW there was a reason white van music dropped out of my rotation after one day

i knew there was something off abtthose beats and now i kno y i wasnt feelin it


>Also you do realize that Afrika Bambatta was making electric
>beat rap music before cats started making boom bap?
>
>So electric beat music is closer to the roots of old school
>hip hop than
>boom bap is.

dj's extending loops...bambatta known as "the master of records"

>The shit Mantronix was doing, and the shit that Man Parrish
>put out, that shit was all electric beat music, same thing
>goes for Herbie Hancock's rocket....
>

it's rock IT...

and djs extending breaks still came b4 all of this, not to belittle the good music made by these artists


>That's the reason why I love so much of the eletric beat stuff
>because it takes me back to the sounds of Arthur Russell, DNA,
>Glenn Branca, Liquid Liquid, ESG, Afrika B, Mantronix, etc
>.....
>
>Hip Hop started off with keyboards and synthesizers, then came
>the MPC and SP1200
>
>

WRONG

hip hop started w/ a turntable and sound system manipulation

that is the essence


ill take herc and flash over all them

________________________________________________________________
whenever you did these things to the least of my brothers you did them to me

I'm talking about records!...not rocking the parties and the park and the bedroom beginnings of hip hop....WE all know how hip hop STARTED out, but I'm talking about its trademark sound


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGqiBFqWCTU&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa8hdzQ4aok&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3G_J6aMO-g&feature=related

street dance break machine??...shit ..that was my shit

All of this was way before boom bap, mpcs, and sp1200s...this was the original sound of hip hop....It was electric, new wavish, punk rockish, etc.....

THE FIRST TRADEMARK SOUND OF HIP HOP was an electric/drum beat sound