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Subject: "Subtle Ways Musical Artists Broke Tradition..." Previous topic | Next topic
Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Mon Mar-05-12 01:14 PM

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"Subtle Ways Musical Artists Broke Tradition..."


  

          

... recently, I got to thinking that one of the understated "Stevie-isms" is his affinity for the finger snap as percussion. I don't recall enough to claim that as something only Stevie did to great effect, but rather, it's one of those things when heard in certain contexts, reminds me most of him.

I think that was one of the most striking things about his music when he broke out from Motown's "factory mold", though -- it wasn't really seen heavily featured until his 1980s music. It's also one of the reasons why I felt the Gap Band did their homework when they (Charlie) emulated Stevie's work to great success.

Like most of the "little things", I almost forgot about this, until I made my routine venture to a local supermarket and I heard "If You Really Love" me over the PA; this prompted me to put on WHERE I'M COMING FROM (an oft-forgotten piece in Stevie's catalog) as soon as I got to the Volvo, and some time later in my drive, up came "Take Up A Course In Happiness".

It's one of my favorite Stevie records, though I don't really know how well it's known if only, because it is very much a "Motown" record -- minus the fact that Stevie replaced the requisite tambourines with finger snaps. It was a small, subtle move that made the song sound -that- much more his own. Like I felt "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" was one of the first real steps toward Stevie's independence musically, this, too... was a touch indicating Stevie's control of his own records.

It reminds me of Michael Jackson and his insistence on a certain guitar figure and certain percussion -- those things that sound like "Michael Jackson" on records he has nothing to do with (see: the beginning of Rufus's "Walk The Rockway", or the main groove of the Commodores' "Won't You Come Dance With Me").

As a side note, Stevie held to a restrained vocal is one of the surest signs of what has made him an enduring figure... but among all the Motown greats, he always struck me as one of those who could really not be restrained (David Ruffin and Dennis Edwards are two others). I'm always taken aback by his pre-'70s Motown work because I was so surprised he was "allowed" to sing in such an expressive voice, considering the law of the land over there.

And even so, once he was allowed to release his own compositions increasingly, Stevie became one of the more subversive figures in music. If James was secretly the "Black Conservative", Stevie was secretly the "Angry Race Man"... take a listen to his grumbles on "Rocket Love", on "Sweet Little Girl", or the right-in-your face "F.U." song, "I Want To Talk To You".

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
i'm coming back to this post.
Mar 05th 2012
1
james jamerson's bass used anchor the rhythm section AND play a melody.
Mar 05th 2012
2
damn right
Mar 05th 2012
3
i'm sure somebody did it before jameson,
Mar 05th 2012
6
yep yep.
Mar 05th 2012
25
that's a great track.
Mar 05th 2012
27
you will recognize the song, even w/ nothing else playing...
Mar 07th 2012
52
whoever the first reggae drummer was to put the kick on the third beat.
Mar 05th 2012
4
I always heard it was Scratch Perry
Mar 05th 2012
22
Prince & 'horns'
Mar 05th 2012
5
that is the thing that converted me.
Mar 05th 2012
7
Marvin Gayes innovations with multitracked harmonies.
Mar 05th 2012
8
i'd say MJ, prince, and stevie are equally good at that.
Mar 05th 2012
9
for sure. D'Angelo was on that w/Voodoo.
Mar 05th 2012
11
yeah. thing is, it was there to some extent w/ his first album, but
Mar 05th 2012
17
i dig that about Hargrove's work too.
Mar 05th 2012
19
D'Angelo examples:
Mar 06th 2012
40
This one should go to Les Paul.
Mar 05th 2012
15
let me add Michael McDonald (who got it from Steely Dan) to that,
Mar 05th 2012
18
      yes!
Mar 05th 2012
24
      here's the part from the video: http://splicd.com/waIBA6_0GQc/380/521
Mar 06th 2012
38
      Yeah, one song where I felt its influence
Mar 06th 2012
33
      yeah. i heart that song.
Mar 08th 2012
61
      how yall leave out Freddie Mercury
Mar 06th 2012
36
           link / splicd up a good example, please?
Mar 06th 2012
39
               
Mar 06th 2012
49
p-funk's deconstruction and reconstruction of the black music tradition.
Mar 05th 2012
10
RE: p-funk's deconstruction and reconstruction of the black music tradit...
Mar 05th 2012
20
Don't know for sure.....
Mar 05th 2012
26
word. gospel in there, too.
Mar 05th 2012
32
very true.
Mar 06th 2012
37
i don't know which song is the song that defines the p-funk sound.
Mar 07th 2012
56
      Mothership Connection. One Nation Under a Groove.
Mar 07th 2012
60
smokey robinson's voice challenges assumptions about gender.
Mar 05th 2012
12
this essay about smokey robinson is really good.
Mar 07th 2012
57
james brown made the entire band sound like a percussion instrument.
Mar 05th 2012
13
Two Words; Moog Bass
Mar 05th 2012
14
Great post.
Mar 05th 2012
16
^^^^
Mar 06th 2012
35
Got a few...
Mar 05th 2012
21
he was also one of the first to rap on a "regular" record too...
Mar 05th 2012
29
      .
Mar 06th 2012
34
      Melle Mel on Chaka Khan "I Feel For You"? n/m
Mar 07th 2012
55
           I said "one of" the first...not THE first...
Mar 07th 2012
58
                no. that wasn't an underground record.
Mar 07th 2012
59
I think Derrick May was the first to make Dance music "top heavy"
Mar 05th 2012
23
Examples...
Mar 06th 2012
46
      oh shit! i know what you talking about now.
Mar 06th 2012
47
           Nude Photo was '87, Kaos was '88
Mar 06th 2012
48
                damn. y u have to do the math on it? i was almost street legal
Mar 06th 2012
50
Uncle Luke
Mar 05th 2012
28
RE: Subtle Ways Musical Artists Broke Tradition...
Mar 05th 2012
30
The Beatles
Mar 05th 2012
31
Buju Banton----Til Shiloh
Mar 06th 2012
41
Sister Carol was doing that YEARS before Buju.
Mar 06th 2012
43
      A bunch of the 80's Dj's did it but Buju's Til Shiloh
Mar 07th 2012
54
can y'all youtube examples (or better yet, splicd)? that would make
Mar 06th 2012
42
awesome idea.
Mar 06th 2012
44
fair enough. I'll add it to mine.
Mar 06th 2012
45
Stanley Clarke: bass guitar as lead guitar.
Mar 07th 2012
51
i'm not too proud to say it..
Mar 07th 2012
53
Lonnie Johnson & the move to single-string guitar soloing
Mar 08th 2012
62

Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Mar-05-12 01:36 PM

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1. "i'm coming back to this post."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Mar-05-12 02:47 PM

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2. "james jamerson's bass used anchor the rhythm section AND play a melody."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Mar-05-12 02:47 PM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

from what i've read,
it was weird the way he played bass.

most blues bands
just used bass players to hold down the tonic
and maybe a few grace notes here and there.


i guess jazz bass players were different,
but most of those early recordings don't even let you HEAR the bass player, even if he was on point.



james jamerson made the bass
as a percussion instrument that held down shit in the pocket,
but he'd also leap outside the pocket to play countermelodies
that were just as memorable as the main hook.

(i know i'm not the only one that can hum the bassline to bernedette.)



that stype influenced damn near everybody playing bass today.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Mon Mar-05-12 02:51 PM

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3. "damn right"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>that style influenced damn near everybody playing bass today.

I think it is related to what you would hear in jazz or blues though what I consider "modern" bass playing has its real genesis in popular music w/Jameson.

I wonder how many examples of the bass guitar damn near being the "lead" of a song existed before that era of music.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Mar-05-12 03:02 PM

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6. "i'm sure somebody did it before jameson, "
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

but jameson made it popular.
music historians can always find somebody else who did something "first."

but bass in pop music as we know it
can be traced back to jamerson.


it's not surprising, in a way,
that he was a jazz player.

he plays bass like a jazz musician staying in a tighter pocket.
all the funk bros. did.

i always used to have that theory,
but i coulnn't articulate it until i saw "standing in the shadows of motown."


i used to always say motown was kind of "jazzy," in a weird way,
but i didn't realize that they were litteraly jazz musicians
until i saw that movie.




>>that style influenced damn near everybody playing bass
>today.
>
>I think it is related to what you would hear in jazz or blues
>though what I consider "modern" bass playing has its real
>genesis in popular music w/Jameson.
>
>I wonder how many examples of the bass guitar damn near being
>the "lead" of a song existed before that era of music.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Mar-05-12 09:33 PM

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25. "yep yep."
In response to Reply # 2


          

I was trying to think of the best examples of this....

I think 'Ain't no mountain high enough' is a great one. Lots of the Marvin stuff like 'what's going on'. I searched around and another GREAT example is his playing on the Jackson 5's 'Darling Dear'. In fact that might be the absolute best example of it...there's even an allusion to what you're talking about in the description here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-iW51idC0&feature=related

Also noticed there's alot of Jamerson basslines on youtube isolated as solo tracks. Lots of stuff to check out.


  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Mon Mar-05-12 09:41 PM

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27. "that's a great track."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

and i never would have thought to post it,
but yeah.

and like the description said...
that song is made magical by the bass.
of course, MJ is killing the vocals.

but the bass is what makes it sound... other worldly.
i love that part of that song.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Wed Mar-07-12 01:22 PM

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52. "you will recognize the song, even w/ nothing else playing..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07wC50bWbnY


^^ "ain't no mountain high enough" w/ james jamerson's bass isolated.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Mon Mar-05-12 02:57 PM

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4. "whoever the first reggae drummer was to put the kick on the third beat."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

usually, the kick is on the one and the three.
(like the drum pattern goes in "billie jean.")


that back beat can be found on everything
from jazz to blues to soul to pop to disco to metal to *insert genre*


but what's weird about reggae is that
at some point along the way,
somebody thought to put a kick drum on the third beat.



i don't know who started that.
but it's innovative.





  

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Tiger verse Crane
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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Mon Mar-05-12 07:17 PM

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22. "I always heard it was Scratch Perry"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

"People Funny Boy" got a lot of that stuff: the sped up baby sample, the organ that would lead to a lot of roots and dub. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_TIDBp_-0o

Tho I'm not sure how true it is he developed the backbeat or just helped push it through his crazy level of production.

  

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SoWhat
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5. "Prince & 'horns'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

back when i was getting into Prince, it was clear i preferred his music w/horns over his music w/the synths in place of horns. in fact, b/c i was a stupid kid it took a while before i recognized he used to use synths in places where other musicians/arrangers used horns. i was real bothered when Morris called for 'horns' on 'Chocolate' and a bunch of synths responded. _real_ bothered. LOL but now i get it.

fuck you.

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Mon Mar-05-12 03:05 PM

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7. "that is the thing that converted me."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

the thing about Prince, and no song he's associated with really strikes me as such more than "The Walk" -- is that he somehow managed to articulate (i.e. using mod effects whilst playing) and record those synths in the studio so that they have the same feel as "horns". I don't even think that comes off even in the live show.

you know they're not real but at the same time they feel like it. Even more so than most other artists' synth horns in the era (esp. in the digital synth era of the later 1980s).


  

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mathmagic
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Mon Mar-05-12 03:56 PM

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8. "Marvin Gayes innovations with multitracked harmonies."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Marvin was already the
prince of soul, but when he started singing with himself as his own 'backround vocalists' he went into the stratospher. He became a one-man temptations (maybe minus the bass part) No one to this day has matched his ability to sing with himself.

Jordan!

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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Mon Mar-05-12 04:07 PM

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9. "i'd say MJ, prince, and stevie are equally good at that."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

but yeah, i think he was the first person
to do it w/ that much skill.


and janet is surprising good it that,
considering how "weak" her lead vocals are.

jimmy jam and terry lewis created arrangements
that have her sounding a lot like mike in that department.


>Marvin was already the
>prince of soul, but when he started singing with himself as
>his own 'backround vocalists' he went into the stratospher. He
>became a one-man temptations (maybe minus the bass part) No
>one to this day has matched his ability to sing with himself.

  

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SoWhat
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11. "for sure. D'Angelo was on that w/Voodoo."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

i could tell he was very inspired by Marvin's backing vocals.

fuck you.

  

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poetx
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17. "yeah. thing is, it was there to some extent w/ his first album, but "
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

him, ?uest an nem just took it to extreme marvinish levels and really made it emblematic of d'angelo on voodoo. it was one of my favorite things about the album.

(and while we on that, and harmonies, i've always loved the way roy hargrove overdubs his trumpet harmonies as kind of a signature sound. i don't think i've never NOT liked a cut where he did that).




peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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SoWhat
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19. "i dig that about Hargrove's work too."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

fuck you.

  

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poetx
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40. "D'Angelo examples: "
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

http://splicd.com/h3y2aP0B4Ic/65/101

dreamin' eyes of mine

http://splicd.com/fce41OOpUPk/69/114

the root. dayum. this is more marvin via Prince. i'm gonna have to look again for a more marvinish example from voodoo, b/c this one was straight purple. (but in listening i can hear where p got it, also). and i'm sure there are antecedents to the style further back than marvin as well.

duh.

greatdayinthemornin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIRrVhz5boI&feature=related

from the very beginning you can hear it. i can still hear prince but i hear more of marvin on this one. cotdayum, tho. voodoo is one of my all time favorite vibing records. and i ain't even touched on Spanish Joint yet which is prolly in my top 10 favorite songs evar.

dammit okp.

now i got parliament out. steely dan. and both d'angelo records. and shortly this will include a couple marvin records. and prince. and this is just one CORNER of this poast.




peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Mar-05-12 05:29 PM

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15. "This one should go to Les Paul."
In response to Reply # 8


          

Though I'm not sure you'd call it a 'subtle' break from tradition.

  

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poetx
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18. "let me add Michael McDonald (who got it from Steely Dan) to that, "
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

also.

(not on some claiming they had it first shit.. just saying that they also innovated on harmonies and brought something to the game).

this youtube clip on SD and michael mcdonald breaking down how they schooled him on singing close harmonies, and how it sounded weird to him at first, but it came out dope. (on Peg).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waIBA6_0GQc

what's ill is that even though he did this on session work w/ Steely Dan, he embraced the concept to the point that this kind of harmony is one of the main things you'd identify as mcdonald's style.

if nobody else, i know the Doc will love that.

i had meant to make a 'father to the style' poast a long time ago with this.

btw, as sowhat mentioned in reply to mathmagic (re: marvin's harmonies -> d'angelo's harmonies), you can also see that phonte picked up the torch from d'angelo as far as his vocal production (for him and others), in how he handles harmonies.

i always meant to ask him about that, b/c i know he's a 'student' of music.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Mar-05-12 08:52 PM

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24. "yes!"
In response to Reply # 18
Mon Mar-05-12 08:52 PM by Joe Corn Mo

  

          

those harmonies on "peg" are ridiculous.
SEE ALSO: the bridge on "i've got the news."

  

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poetx
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Tue Mar-06-12 01:39 PM

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38. "here's the part from the video: http://splicd.com/waIBA6_0GQc/380/521"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

http://splicd.com/waIBA6_0GQc/380/521

from 6:20 to 8:41 in the video. shit is dope.

and i went back and listened to that bridge from I Got The News, and that's exactly it.

when i stumbled upon this clip a few years ago, it was like, oh shit, that's where all that comes from (as far as the doobie brothers' sound, michael mcdonald steez).






peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Tue Mar-06-12 08:14 AM

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33. "Yeah, one song where I felt its influence"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

was a song McDonald wrote with Kenny Loggins, "Heart to Heart". Loggins recorded it, but even though McDonald isn't on the record (outside of playing electric piano... WTF), the background vocalists really did take cues from him.

I remember this was one of the things that stood out most about his Doobies recordings and was one of those things that made it seem like he "took over the band".

  

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poetx
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61. "yeah. i heart that song. "
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>was a song McDonald wrote with Kenny Loggins, "Heart to
>Heart". Loggins recorded it, but even though McDonald isn't on
>the record (outside of playing electric piano... WTF), the
>background vocalists really did take cues from him.

i always thought he sung background on that. he just put his foot in it, though.

>I remember this was one of the things that stood out most
>about his Doobies recordings and was one of those things that
>made it seem like he "took over the band".

yep. thing is, i never distinguished between him and them. far as i knew, he WAS the doobies.

if nothing else, he was the main one that shoulda been pissed at rerun, rog an nem.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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Ray_Snill
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Tue Mar-06-12 11:30 AM

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36. "how yall leave out Freddie Mercury"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

dude was killing the vocal harmonies, damn near sounding like a choir



<================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20787335@N08

  

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poetx
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39. "link / splicd up a good example, please? "
In response to Reply # 36


  

          


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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Ray_Snill
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Tue Mar-06-12 07:31 PM

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49. ""
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pMM4iwC-ag&ob=av2n

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHbCE53s9hQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZBtPf7FOoM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDMjgckNlz0&feature=relmfu



<================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20787335@N08

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Mon Mar-05-12 04:10 PM

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10. "p-funk's deconstruction and reconstruction of the black music tradition."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

take JB's rhythm section,
then add hendrix's crazy lead guitars,
doo wop vocal chops,
jazz styled improvosation...


then throw in some weird keyboards
and a more than a dash of mysticism...

and you get something that sounds like exactly nothing else.
i've never heard a p-funk song and said, "that reminds me of _____ "



p-funk almost sounds like a genre
just by itself.

if i'm in the mood to hear p-funk,
there's no other band that i can go to.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Mon Mar-05-12 06:32 PM

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20. "RE: p-funk's deconstruction and reconstruction of the black music tradit..."
In response to Reply # 10


          

>take JB's rhythm section,
>then add hendrix's crazy lead guitars,
>doo wop vocal chops,
>jazz styled improvosation...
>
>
>then throw in some weird keyboards
>and a more than a dash of mysticism...
>
>and you get something that sounds like exactly nothing else.
>i've never heard a p-funk song and said, "that reminds me of
>_____ "
>
>
>
>p-funk almost sounds like a genre
>just by itself.
>
>if i'm in the mood to hear p-funk,
>there's no other band that i can go to.


Dope....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Mar-05-12 09:36 PM

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26. "Don't know for sure....."
In response to Reply # 10


          

but I would guess that Frank Zappa was a big influence on George on a couple different conceptual levels.

  

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poetx
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32. "word. gospel in there, too. "
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

i mean, really. p-funk is a melange of the black musical continuum.

>take JB's rhythm section,
>then add hendrix's crazy lead guitars,
>doo wop vocal chops,
>jazz styled improvosation...
>
>
>then throw in some weird keyboards
>and a more than a dash of mysticism...

and gospel chords. i think all great black musicians had that chuch in the background, somewheres.

i ain't understand it when i was little but i can hear it plain as day.

>
>and you get something that sounds like exactly nothing else.
>i've never heard a p-funk song and said, "that reminds me of
>_____ "

right. i'm finna listen to Mothership Connection right now.

>p-funk almost sounds like a genre
>just by itself.
>
>if i'm in the mood to hear p-funk,
>there's no other band that i can go to.

lol. nope.

singular.

unless you count all of their mutations and offshoots:

parliament
funkadelic
bootsy
brides of funkenstein
parlet
p-funk all stars


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
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Tue Mar-06-12 11:35 AM

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37. "very true."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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56. "i don't know which song is the song that defines the p-funk sound."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

any ideas?


>take JB's rhythm section,
>then add hendrix's crazy lead guitars,
>doo wop vocal chops,
>jazz styled improvosation...
>
>
>then throw in some weird keyboards
>and a more than a dash of mysticism...
>
>and you get something that sounds like exactly nothing else.
>i've never heard a p-funk song and said, "that reminds me of
>_____ "
>
>
>
>p-funk almost sounds like a genre
>just by itself.
>
>if i'm in the mood to hear p-funk,
>there's no other band that i can go to.
>

  

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SoWhat
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60. "Mothership Connection. One Nation Under a Groove."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

Up For the Down Stroke.

P-Funk (Wants To Get Funked Up).

Give Up the Funk.

fuck you.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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12. "smokey robinson's voice challenges assumptions about gender."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

smokey robinson sounds like a man when he sings.
nobody would ever mistake him for a woman.

but his voice is so high,
that he can use his "regular" voice to hit notes
that most people would have to go into falsetto to hit.


what is it that makes smokey robinson sound like a man?
sure, there are lots of guys that sing in high tennor,
but i think early smokey robinson records are in the soprano register.


yet in spite of his high voice,
he always sounds masculine.

it's crazy.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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57. "this essay about smokey robinson is really good."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

http://www.observer.com/1998/05/smokey-robinson-is-a-miracle/



it explains what i'm talking about better than i can.

  

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Joe Corn Mo
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13. "james brown made the entire band sound like a percussion instrument."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

he metticulously arranged the horns
and the rhythm guitar
and the grunts of his voice
in a way that made all of it sound
like an extention of the rhythm guitar.


all of those sounds weaving in and out
to create layers and layers of rhythm.



and what's more,
he was able to produce the band to sound that way,
live... on stage.


all of those grunts
were vocal cues he'd give to the horn players
to ensure that the "mix" was proper.

as a band leader, he could adust the sound
of every instrument in the mix by grunting cues at his band members...

as if he was a rap producer sliding a knob
to make the bass drum louder in the mix.




everything in the band was so tight...
but not in the stilted way that
prince's JB songs are...

it was tight in a way that still allowed for syncopation
that still felt spontaneous.





  

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Harlepolis
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14. "Two Words; Moog Bass"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

We marvel about Bernie Worrell and Junie Morrison. But he is as much of a prolific keyboardist as those gentlemen.

Take a listen to "Come Back As A Flower" or even "Ribbon In The Sky", who else could play the moog to sound like an UPRIGHT BASS?

You talk about subtle, both of Syreeta's 1st two albums and the "Secret Lives of Plants" are filled with intricate quirks within the production, I don't know where to begin. They make for headphone wet dream.

I love the way he mixed those sinister and happy keyboard notes, namely in Syreeta's albums. It made the storytelling of those songs a lil' more complex and multi-dimensional.

  

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denny
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16. "Great post."
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's alot easier to think of 'non-subtle' breaks in tradition. I'll be back later on with some suggestions.

  

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camerongiIes
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35. "^^^^"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

i dont have much to contribute tho

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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21. "Got a few..."
In response to Reply # 0


          



Jimi Hendrix:

Making rock music a much more complex and "harder" genre to box in...He (the American) also took the blues back from his white British guitar peers and turned it on its head, to the point that Clapton changed his sound to a more white, country sound by the early 70s...

David Bowie:

He injected "performance art" into music beyond anything that the Beatles or Jim Morrison was taking it...That means songs done in character (Ziggy Stardust, the Thin White Duke, The DJ, ec...) and each song taking on the personality of said character...The reflective, spacey tone of Ziggy...The funky, plastic soul of the Duke...In this way, Bowie could survive in music without ever being himself (see Madonna)...

Rakim:

More lyrically, than musically...Rakim was the first MC to write a song as a secondary character...Take say, "Eric B. For President"...Rakim turns the mic into a living character and becomes an afterthought: "I came in the door, I said it before
I never let the mic magnatize me no more...But it's biting me, fighting me, inviting me to rhyme..."

As I said in a old post about Rakim's impact, rappers were not doing this in 85/86...This was still the era of Run DMC and LL: very B-Boy...Rakim brought a surreal self awareness to writing when it came to hip-hop...Everything changed from that...

I could do more...but I would be here all day...lol


GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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disco dj
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29. "he was also one of the first to rap on a "regular" record too..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>
>
>Rakim:
>
>More lyrically, than musically...Rakim was the first MC to
>write a song as a secondary character...Take say, "Eric B. For
>President"...Rakim turns the mic into a living character and
>becomes an afterthought: "I came in the door, I said it
>before
>I never let the mic magnatize me no more...But it's biting me,
>fighting me, inviting me to rhyme..."
>
>As I said in a old post about Rakim's impact, rappers were not
>doing this in 85/86...This was still the era of Run DMC and
>LL: very B-Boy...Rakim brought a surreal self awareness to
>writing when it came to hip-hop...Everything changed from
>that...


all that, and he rapped on Jody Watley's "Friends" at a time when MC's wanted nothing to do with Non-Hip-Hop records. In fact, when it first came out, people were dissing Rakim for 'selling out' and dissing Jody Watley for bring the streets to Radio and R&B. and of course a couple years later, EVERY R&B artist had a rapper throw a hot 16 on their shit.

and LOL @ the era when people had two versions of the same song; one with the rap, and one with the empty 16 in it...for radio, of course.



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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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34. "."
In response to Reply # 29
Tue Mar-06-12 08:40 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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BrainChild
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55. "Melle Mel on Chaka Khan "I Feel For You"? n/m"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

--me--
www.djbrainchild.com
www.gordongartrellradio.com
www.twitter.com/djbrainchild

  

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disco dj
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58. " I said "one of" the first...not THE first..."
In response to Reply # 55
Wed Mar-07-12 05:29 PM by disco dj

  

          

*EDIT*

and I also said "regular" ( read: R&B/Radio ) records. I meant that Jody Watley's record was for all intents and purposes, a 'mainstream' record, not a Club cut like "I Feel For You". Now granted, Chaka Khan's record blew up and became a hit record regardless, but from look and style of the video on down to the sound of the song itself, we might argue that it was an underground record.


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SoWhat
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59. "no. that wasn't an underground record."
In response to Reply # 58
Wed Mar-07-12 05:44 PM by SoWhat

  

          

Chaka was too mainstream for that record to be considered underground. she was coming off 'Ain't Nobody', a #1 (R&B) jam. and she was already Chaka Khan by then. she was not an unknown. and though the sounds on the record were relatively fresh, the sounds on that record weren't so far from what was happening in the mainstream that one could only expect it to be embraced by the underground.

fuck you.

  

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disco dj
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23. "I think Derrick May was the first to make Dance music "top heavy""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

meaning, he moved the high parts of the song ( Hi Hat, Lead Synth and hi end percussion) to the front of the mix.

If you don't understand what I mean check out the hi-hat parts on "Nude Photo" or "Kaos". Prior to that, everybody was pretty much using the open and closed hat just to keep time. ( the "nnntz" in "Ooooontz"). But Derrick May programmed it as part of the melody, or made it a melody in itself. And he was one of the first to use the lead synth to carry the basstones of the song as well For an example check out "No UFO's" by Model 500( it's up for grabs as to who *really* did it first him or Larry Heard, on "Washing Machine" btw). But yeah.

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disco dj
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46. "Examples..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>meaning, he moved the high parts of the song ( Hi Hat, Lead
>Synth and hi end percussion) to the front of the mix.
>
>If you don't understand what I mean check out the hi-hat parts
>on "Nude Photo" or "Kaos".

"Nude Photo"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mG4KJGXqP0

"Kaos"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47Zj4pR06k&feature=related

( now bear in mind that the Hi-Hat on "Kaos" is filtered/phased which is why it almost sounds like an instrument. That's my point. )


Prior to that, everybody was pretty
>much using the open and closed hat just to keep time. ( the
>"nnntz" in "Ooooontz"). But Derrick May programmed it as part
>of the melody, or made it a melody in itself. And he was one
>of the first to use the lead synth to carry the basstones of
>the song as well For an example check out "No UFO's" by Model
>500

"No UFO's" - Model 500
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNz01ty-kTQ



( it's up for grabs as to who *really* did it first him or
>Larry Heard, on "Washing Machine" btw). But yeah.

"Washing Machine" - Fingers, Inc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_S8IQnumXQ





>
>

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poetx
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47. "oh shit! i know what you talking about now. "
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>>meaning, he moved the high parts of the song ( Hi Hat, Lead
>>Synth and hi end percussion) to the front of the mix.
>>
>>If you don't understand what I mean check out the hi-hat
>parts
>>on "Nude Photo" or "Kaos".
>
>"Nude Photo"
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mG4KJGXqP0

yep. what year was that?

>
>"Kaos"
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47Zj4pR06k&feature=related
>
>( now bear in mind that the Hi-Hat on "Kaos" is
>filtered/phased which is why it almost sounds like an
>instrument. That's my point. )

and yeah, i can definitely hear that. and can think of a lot of joints like that. derrick may was part of a lot of groups or recorded under mad names, right? i never realized these other joints were rhythm is rhythm. in my mind i only had associated them with Strings of Life, which is one of my favorite joints. (but that is hella piano driven and way different than these).

these came before set it off (i hate that song, btw)? i seem to remember a lot of NY/NJ House w/ the hi hats out in front. i know there was a lot of cross-pollenation of the NY/NJ vs. Chi/DET scene from mid-to late 80s. or at least that evolution from ny/nj 'club' to chi/det house/techno.

hrm. but that shit w/ the phasing of the high hats, that caught on like wildfire.

>Prior to that, everybody was pretty
>>much using the open and closed hat just to keep time. ( the
>>"nnntz" in "Ooooontz"). But Derrick May programmed it as
>part
>>of the melody, or made it a melody in itself. And he was one
>>of the first to use the lead synth to carry the basstones of
>>the song as well For an example check out "No UFO's" by
>Model
>>500
>
>"No UFO's" - Model 500
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNz01ty-kTQ

hmm. you know what? this one makes me wonder if the musical antecedent wasn't already there in the techno hip hop shit. w/ them kind of drums, this was definitely present in all the afrikaa bambaataa 'renegades of funk' type shit. and that would have only been about 2-3 yrs earlier.

and you can definitely trace a line that goes from that steez to mantronik (who really was a link between electronic hip hop and nyc club/proto-house if you go from, say, Johnny the Fox to All in All).



all of that shit was off the same branch. and the uncle luke/miami bass ninjas took planet rock and ran off in a whole nother direction.

mannn... that would be a dope poast. (you ever seen the music tree/taxonomy charts? having one of them w/ youtube or splicd links would be insane).


>( it's up for grabs as to who *really* did it first him or
>>Larry Heard, on "Washing Machine" btw). But yeah.
>
>"Washing Machine" - Fingers, Inc
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_S8IQnumXQ
>


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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disco dj
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48. "Nude Photo was '87, Kaos was '88"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

Damn...that was 25 years ago.





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poetx
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50. "damn. y u have to do the math on it? i was almost street legal "
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

at that point.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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-DJ R-Tistic-
Member since Nov 06th 2008
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Mon Mar-05-12 09:42 PM

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28. "Uncle Luke"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

In a LOT of ways too. The chant, call and response style that was repeated over and over vs just two bars. Recording his own voice with 5-6 layers of doubles and adlibs. The content, which was ONLY about sex/women/poppin dat P. Didn't always use traditional bar structures for verses...sometimes just did a chant for a whole "verse" then didn't even have a hook. All types of things that were unorthodox

------------------------------

50+ FREE Mixes on www.DJR-Tistic.com!

Twitter and Instagram - @DJ_RTistic

  

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Thanes1975
Member since Aug 03rd 2011
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Mon Mar-05-12 09:52 PM

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30. "RE: Subtle Ways Musical Artists Broke Tradition..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

GREAT POST...let me think on this one...

"Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds."-Albert Einstein

http://twitter.com/#!/TonyHanesPoetry

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Mar-05-12 10:03 PM

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31. "The Beatles"
In response to Reply # 0


          

They obviously have a ton of these. Some subtle ones:

In terms of song structure....the coda or outro in 'Ticket to Ride'. Wasn't a traditional technique in pop music until they did it.

Tons of subtle production techniques that we can probably mostly attribute to George Martin:

The saturation/distortion on the vocals in 'I am The Walrus'.

The use of 'backwards' playback on the guitar for 'I'm only sleeping'.

The phasing effect on Lennon's vocal for 'Across the Universe'. Similarly, on 'Tomorrow never knows' they put the vocal through a Leslie cabinet.











  

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debo40oz
Member since Apr 16th 2003
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41. "Buju Banton----Til Shiloh"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When he started actually singing instead of strictly djing.

  

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disco dj
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43. "Sister Carol was doing that YEARS before Buju."
In response to Reply # 41
Tue Mar-06-12 05:58 PM by disco dj

  

          

"Ababajoni"- Sister Carol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vukPBEzV3iE&feature=related

( tell me this^^^ one didn't influence Buju)

"Jah Disciple"- Sister Carol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk6VfcHuh1A


"Lost in Space"- Sister Carol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu8Cbnpn4EA

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debo40oz
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54. "A bunch of the 80's Dj's did it but Buju's Til Shiloh"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

shifted a lot of dancehall artists and made room for the influx of singjays like sizzla.

  

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poetx
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Tue Mar-06-12 05:11 PM

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42. "can y'all youtube examples (or better yet, splicd)? that would make"
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some of these things better, as far as being able to appreciate what was brought to the game by artists you're not directly familiar with.

like, for some of these folks mentioned, i could go off the top of the dome and mention nuances they brought to their work, their genres, or music in general, whereas on many others i'm reading the words but can't quite grasp what y'all are saying.

plus, this would make the poast dope for any non-ethnomusicologists out there, lurkers or otherwise, who are quietly tired of being told they can't 'hear jimi'.

if you ain't up on splicd, basically go to youtube for a video, then copy the url, go to splicd.com, and paste it, and provide a start and stop timestamp.

so on the steely dan joint, when i was talking about the close harmonies on Peg that fagen and becker schooled michael mcdonald on, out of an 8 minute video, from 6:05 to 8:40 or so was relevant. (and if you just wanted to hear the part where mm was talking about how the closeness of the harmonies, essentially singing chords, was weird to him at first and made it hard for him to hold pitch, that's more like 8:20-8:40).

i know that in the past, in some dilla poasts, i've been like, 'where, i can't see, HERE, DIAGONALLY!!' when it came to some flips and shit. for something i'm motivated to learn about, i *might* could listen to a 4 minute record, slowly, twice, for the revelation. but if you had a quick link to the part of the song that illustrated the concept (back to doc's original poast), that would help a lot.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Tue Mar-06-12 05:24 PM

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44. "awesome idea."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>some of these things better, as far as being able to
>appreciate what was brought to the game by artists you're not
>directly familiar with.
>
>like, for some of these folks mentioned, i could go off the
>top of the dome and mention nuances they brought to their
>work, their genres, or music in general, whereas on many
>others i'm reading the words but can't quite grasp what y'all
>are saying.
>
>plus, this would make the poast dope for any
>non-ethnomusicologists out there, lurkers or otherwise, who
>are quietly tired of being told they can't 'hear jimi'.
>
>if you ain't up on splicd, basically go to youtube for a
>video, then copy the url, go to splicd.com, and paste it, and
>provide a start and stop timestamp.
>
>so on the steely dan joint, when i was talking about the close
>harmonies on Peg that fagen and becker schooled michael
>mcdonald on, out of an 8 minute video, from 6:05 to 8:40 or so
>was relevant. (and if you just wanted to hear the part where
>mm was talking about how the closeness of the harmonies,
>essentially singing chords, was weird to him at first and made
>it hard for him to hold pitch, that's more like 8:20-8:40).
>
>i know that in the past, in some dilla poasts, i've been like,
>'where, i can't see, HERE, DIAGONALLY!!' when it came to some
>flips and shit. for something i'm motivated to learn about, i
>*might* could listen to a 4 minute record, slowly, twice, for
>the revelation. but if you had a quick link to the part of the
>song that illustrated the concept (back to doc's original
>poast), that would help a lot.
>
>
>peace & blessings,
>
>x.
>
>www.twitter.com/poetx
>
>=========================================
>** i move away from the mic to breathe in

  

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disco dj
Charter member
84260 posts
Tue Mar-06-12 05:43 PM

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45. "fair enough. I'll add it to mine."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
131944 posts
Wed Mar-07-12 01:19 PM

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51. "Stanley Clarke: bass guitar as lead guitar."
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Stanley's rep is built on his virtuosity, his tenure in Return To Forever, and his countless contributions to the jazz canon.

but when I wonder what really made him singular among other bassists (even others who are credited for more lauded contributions to the art of bass playing like Jamerson or Larry Graham)... it's because he actually dared to bring the bass in front and record a great number of his records as a solo artist as such... not just in solos.

For everything I see about Stanley's playing I rarely see this break from convention mentioned. If I hear that "guitar" in front, I know it's Stanley and that piccolo bass.

he took the idea Jamerson popularized and snuck it to the front on the low.

this came to mind hearing Marcus Miller's "Nadine" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVcLl9eqDyA). Marcus is a well known bad-ass on the bass with a crazy resume, of course...

but hearing this, reminded me of Stanley more than anything he was ever associated with.

  

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CB_010
Member since Mar 01st 2006
725 posts
Wed Mar-07-12 02:58 PM

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53. "i'm not too proud to say it.."
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this is a FUNKY poast!
Geeshus!

im learning a LOT in here!

carry on..

___________________________
http://www.soundcloud.com/cb010
https://soundcloud.com/kofitheunkn0wn

  

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lonesome_d
Charter member
30443 posts
Thu Mar-08-12 12:29 PM

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62. "Lonnie Johnson & the move to single-string guitar soloing"
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Johnson was one of those guys who mined the fertiile ground between blues and jazz; he was pigeonholed as a blues performer during his heyday, but ultimately his guitar style was just as influential in the jazz world as the blues.

Chief among his developments was the idea of 'single string' soloing, taking the guitar out of a primarily rhythmic accompaniment role. Instead of using a fingerpicking technique like most of the blues guitarists who were being recorded from 1922 on, he used a pick and played his melodies and especially his solos one note at a time.

Among the previously unexplored avenues this opened up to guitarists was the idea of the string bend, which approximated the effect guitarists were already getting using a slide but didn't require re-tuning and therefore allowed a greater flexibility.

A piece sometimes credited as 'the first guitar solo' is 6/88 Glide, from 1927, and you can hear both Johnson's fluidity, his ability to skate between what we'd recognize today as bluesy vs. jazzy, and those bent notes.

Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pV9nO6rYN4

-------
so I'm in a band now:
album ---> http://greenwoodburns.bandcamp.com/releases
Soundcloud ---> http://soundcloud.com/greenwood-burns

my own stuff -->http://soundcloud.com/lonesomedstringband

avy by buckshot_defunct

  

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