Inspired by a conversation with a friend and Doc's analysis in the Gang Starr post...

Does Jay-Z have a F.U. moment? If so, what was/is it?

At this point in his career, Jay-Z has become one of the most visible, important figures in the music industry, if not America as a whole. He has been extremely successful in an industry headed by racist white folks - he is the ultimate rags to riches, against all odds story.

Despite this, I struggle to come up with many moments where he really seemed to put a middle finger to the industry. The juxtaposition strikes me as odd, as I feel most people who came from similar backgrounds and became very successful did so by really not giving a fuck about what society had to say, and really "rebelled" in one way or another.

Is there a moment in Jay-Z's career that we can say he really stuck it to the man? Was it Reasonable Doubt? Watch The Throne? Was he just lucky to come up wit Dame?

What say you?

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

C'mon

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

"Takeover" was probably the most balls Jay ever showed on a record.
The general direction of that album, working with "unknown" producers (or rather, those who weren't getting placed all over the place like that like Kanye, Just, Bink, etc)... building the Roc-A-Fella "sound" on its own merits rather than going with what's hot.

It was "F.U." that paid off.

That's the reason why people revere the album...

of the album is one of a few big reasons why it's my favorite Jay album, I'm not really sure I'd call it and "FU" moment. I mean, sure he worked with in-house no names and made "Takeover", but are those really "eff you's" to the industry? The production was still soul-sampled based which had been cold for a minute but had been used before, and worked. Taking a shot at Nas, if anything, was a great way to sell the album so I don't think he was really doing any pushback towards the powers that be at that point. It's not like Nas was the powers that be's #1 cash cow at that time.

In fact, to further my point, the only guest MC on the album was Eminem, who arguably WAS the industry's #1 cash cow at that time....

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, though.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

>In fact, to further my point, the only guest MC on the album
>was Eminem, who arguably WAS the industry's #1 cash cow at
>that time....
>
>Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, though.

Jay came in (officially) trying to replicate the success of Illmatic and Ready To Die, putting together the home team and some NYC heavy hitters on production, forging the bond with Biggie right off the bat to boot.

After he had a hit with "Ain't No..." he followed up w/Vol. 1, the first of a number of albums (and songs) that followed closely what was "hot" rounded down to the very last cent. Vol. 2 being his biggest blockbuster, in no part due to the contributions of Swizz and Timbaland, arguably the hottest producers in rap in 1998.

But if you look back.. in 2001? Soul samples were seen as passe in the mainstream. Even Timbo's contribution was a lil off what he was known to put out at the time. "Girls, Girls, Girls" as a single? Not even one track from his friends, the Neptunes (who basically guaranteed a hit back then, esp. for him)? No one else (outside of Timbo) that was well-known? Daring to show some bit of frustration and/or slight ("Ain't No Love"?)

Jay has always had high profile guests on his albums, from Biggie, to DMX, to UGK. He had also successfully put out a couple of artists following the same formula he had used on himself (Beans and Bleek.. clown if you want but I do believe Bleek did do well his first couple of times out). But this time around, Jay reduced it to only one (if you don't count Q-Tip, Slick Rick, and Biz Markie on "Girls, Girls, Girls"). And for as much as it was business, Jay putting Eminem on his record was risky... especially considering that was ammo for Nas in response to "Takeover", not to mention him possibly being overshadowed by his one guest appearance.

Even though "H To The Izzo" seemed to take off, it still felt like, from what you knew of Jay-Z you were, for the first time in years, flying in blind.

Contrast with THE BLACK ALBUM; it was a lyrical clinic from Jay with quotables for days, but in retrospect, it was very formulaic (everything seemed carefully choreographed, from beginning to end... and though he strayed from his original plans, he at least brought the Neptunes back).

BLUEPRINT really felt like Jay was taking the kind of risk his success had finally afforded him...it wasn't so much an "F.U." of defiance, but rather an artistic statement that spoke to the slight he spoke on in THE BLACK ALBUM regarding his critical response in certain circles. He was a critical darling for many years, but he wanted that "underground" love, that a Nas or a Mobb Deep could still get despite the stumbles if not full-on fails in their discographies... (he's even admitted this several times).

Well, to them, he said "F.U." (to Nas and Mobb directly, he actually said so).

In doing so, he set trends and actually "made" a couple of careers (Kanye and Just Blaze, in particular).

I think that's the only time Jay actually did something like that in his career and had it "stick". Every time since (the retirement, the Budweiser, the "death" of Autotune)... he's either backtracked or what have you. The ever-underappreciated AMERICAN GANGSTER is close, but it has the benefit of following one of his worst albums ever.

>>In fact, to further my point, the only guest MC on the
>album
>>was Eminem, who arguably WAS the industry's #1 cash cow at
>>that time....
>>
>>Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, though.
>
>Jay came in (officially) trying to replicate the success of
>Illmatic and Ready To Die, putting together the home team and
>some NYC heavy hitters on production, forging the bond with
>Biggie right off the bat to boot.
>
>After he had a hit with "Ain't No..." he followed up w/Vol. 1,
>the first of a number of albums (and songs) that followed
>closely what was "hot" rounded down to the very last cent.
>Vol. 2 being his biggest blockbuster, in no part due to the
>contributions of Swizz and Timbaland, arguably the hottest
>producers in rap in 1998.
>
>But if you look back.. in 2001? Soul samples were seen as
>passe in the mainstream. Even Timbo's contribution was a lil
>off what he was known to put out at the time. "Girls, Girls,
>Girls" as a single? Not even one track from his friends, the
>Neptunes (who basically guaranteed a hit back then, esp. for
>him)? No one else (outside of Timbo) that was well-known?
>Daring to show some bit of frustration and/or slight ("Ain't
>No Love"?)
>
>Jay has always had high profile guests on his albums, from
>Biggie, to DMX, to UGK. He had also successfully put out a
>couple of artists following the same formula he had used on
>himself (Beans and Bleek.. clown if you want but I do believe
>Bleek did do well his first couple of times out). But this
>time around, Jay reduced it to only one (if you don't count
>Q-Tip, Slick Rick, and Biz Markie on "Girls, Girls, Girls").
>And for as much as it was business, Jay putting Eminem on his
>record was risky... especially considering that was ammo for
>Nas in response to "Takeover", not to mention him possibly
>being overshadowed by his one guest appearance.
>
>Even though "H To The Izzo" seemed to take off, it still felt
>like, from what you knew of Jay-Z you were, for the first time
>in years, flying in blind.
>
>Contrast with THE BLACK ALBUM; it was a lyrical clinic from
>Jay with quotables for days, but in retrospect, it was very
>formulaic (everything seemed carefully choreographed, from
>beginning to end... and though he strayed from his original
>plans, he at least brought the Neptunes back).
>
>BLUEPRINT really felt like Jay was taking the kind of risk his
>success had finally afforded him...it wasn't so much an "F.U."
>of defiance, but rather an artistic statement that spoke to
>the slight he spoke on in THE BLACK ALBUM regarding his
>critical response in certain circles. He was a critical
>darling for many years, but he wanted that "underground" love,
>that a Nas or a Mobb Deep could still get despite the stumbles
>if not full-on fails in their discographies... (he's even
>admitted this several times).
>
>Well, to them, he said "F.U." (to Nas and Mobb directly, he
>actually said so).
>
>In doing so, he set trends and actually "made" a couple of
>careers (Kanye and Just Blaze, in particular).
>
>I think that's the only time Jay actually did something like
>that in his career and had it "stick". Every time since (the
>retirement, the Budweiser, the "death" of Autotune)... he's
>either backtracked or what have you. The ever-underappreciated
>AMERICAN GANGSTER is close, but it has the benefit of
>following one of his worst albums ever.

But, you said it yourself, this is better described as a moment of risky defiance in his OWN career than it is an "FU" to the industry, IMO.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

www.twitter.com/seandammit

I'm not sure I fully agree.

Musically, soul samples were pretty prominent back then - although Kanye and Just were relative unknowns, they had been in the game producing and making their mark for years. I'm not sure including them was much of an FU. I think the poster above also hit a good point - despite working with some more unknown cats, he did also feature Eminem and Timbo on BP.

I wasn't really old enough to pay attention back then, but would you say that Reasonable Doubt could be considered a pretty big FU moment?

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

>I wasn't really old enough to pay attention back then, but
>would you say that Reasonable Doubt could be considered a
>pretty big FU moment?

nah... it was '96, New York had regained some of the seats it had lost at the table earlier in the decade at that point. Wu had blown up, Nas was slowly but surely crossing over a bit, Biggie was riding high. Not to mention, Jay was trying very hard to grab a lot of the same ears Biggie had. Whereas Biggie was able to ride his "bigger than life" persona over accessible music, Jay was still in hustle mode.

A lot of that "slight" that you caught in the undertones of many East Coast artists' music from 93-95 was beginning to erode. Well, for a number. Jay has a little bit of that sentiment left over, but IMO he was moreso riding the wave of those who were still hustling such as he. You notice all of that is gone by Vol. 1. He still had a bit of his "bougie rap" persona intact w/songs like "Who You Wit?" and "Imaginary Player", but that whole hungry shit? Out the window.

What about establishing Roc-a-Fella as a label so early? Do you think that was, in a sense, an FU moment that set things up for him to succeed later in his career?

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

>What about establishing Roc-a-Fella as a label so early? Do
>you think that was, in a sense, an FU moment that set things
>up for him to succeed later in his career?

Reading some of the replies, I might have missed the mark of where this post was going. Though, when I originally mentioned "F.U." in the Hard to Earn post, I was speaking to an artistic response to a perceived slight. East Coasters had it big when The Chronic took off, and focus shifted westward. All of that came to a head in '95 at the Source Awards (though I think that was the result of a tough crowd, the art speaks for itself -- "I take fake gangsta MCs and make 'em faggot flambe" © Jeru)

Is not an F.U. to the man.

I think you're way off base with this one Claw.

And I see where you're going with it but Blueprint was not an F.U. In the sense of Bob Dylan going electric at a folk concert.

Jay has no moments like that.

And it always baffles me that people like Jay and Em don't take chances when they are almost guaranteed to sell records.

___________________________
OL' DIRTY BASTARD on himself:
"I may curse, I may have a bad mouth, whatever whatever. I'm not that bad, yaknow'mean. Bad to y'all, I dunno how y'all... I don't give a fuck. Um, I'm a good person at heart, for real and shit.

Eminem's taken a bunch of chances.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I'm talking about him actually making a dope album without the gimmicks.

I remember before the Eminem Show he was saying how much he loved Stankonia and I was hoping their creativity would inspire him but then he puts out the same tired album.

it was a pretty bad song with a political message done in a pretty boring way.

now if Em released an album like Let's Get Free…that would be balls.

LOL

Get over yourself man.

___________________________
OL' DIRTY BASTARD on himself:
"I may curse, I may have a bad mouth, whatever whatever. I'm not that bad, yaknow'mean. Bad to y'all, I dunno how y'all... I don't give a fuck. Um, I'm a good person at heart, for real and shit.

lol.

I used that as an exaggerated example.

I wanted him to take chances musically.

Why not do something like Black Up or something completely left of center?

Of even do something like a concept album?

Or anything different than the same exact formula?

at least an attempt at one.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

But one that is grounded in his gimmick.

Lol

The positive response to This Can't Be Life from his previous album, and possibly the critical praise for the sounscape of Supreme Clientele, made IZZO less of a risk for Jay than one might imagine.

I didn't see anything risky about Blueprint other than the fact he let some no name producers have at it as opposed to grabbing whoever is hot.

"I dumbed down for my audience and double my dollars"

BIG F.U. TO ANY TRUE FAN THAT APPRECIATE THE "ART" OF EMCEEING

You slap the nigga(DRAKE) five n he gon moisturize ya palms nahmean!-BIG GHOST NAHMEAN!

>"I dumbed down for my audience and double my dollars"
>
>BIG F.U. TO ANY TRUE FAN THAT APPRECIATE THE "ART" OF EMCEEING

yeah, that was a F.U., all right... a different kind of "balls" shown on that record, LOL

>Is there a moment in Jay-Z's career that we can say he really
>stuck it to the man? Was it Reasonable Doubt? Watch The
>Throne? Was he just lucky to come up wit Dame?

No, which is why he was able to...

>At this point in his career, Jay-Z has become one of the most
>visible, important figures in the music industry, if not
>America as a whole. He has been extremely successful in an
>industry headed by racist white folks - he is the ultimate
>rags to riches, against all odds story.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I'm not sure how that answers my question - can you expand?

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

The reason for my post, however, was because I feel that most black artists who really made it to a level similar to Jay-Z really had to rebel and have plenty of FU moments.

Look at 2Pac for example. He was everything white people were scared of, Thug Life, not giving a fuck, etc....

Shit, even Kanye - unlike Jay, he put himself out there numerous times. All the rants, the ego, etc...

It just seems to me that a lot of black artists that really reached certain peaks had to take huge risks, had to really challenge society, and usually had a seminal FU moment (or a few) in order to reach a certain level of success.

Jay seems to be one of the guys who kinda stayed lowkey, didn't cause no trouble, and somehow rode that to the top...logic would tell you that's the best way to reach the level he reached, but it doesn't seem to work for many other black artists who just get lost in the shuffle...

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

You're gonna have to pardon me for the following. I am, at my core, a conspiracy theorist especially when it comes to race relations in the United States, so take this with a grain of salt.

>The reason for my post, however, was because I feel that most
>black artists who really made it to a level similar to Jay-Z
>really had to rebel and have plenty of FU moments.

I fully see what you're getting at now.


>Look at 2Pac for example. He was everything white people were
>scared of, Thug Life, not giving a fuck, etc....

Pac is a great example. But (and here comes my conspiracy theory), in my opinion, he was loud enough and FU enough to catch the attention of the white youth which, in turn, caught the attention of the white people in power. And it's my opinion that his death was set up by those very people. In other words, he became big because of his FU moments, not because the powers that be wanted a guy with that message to rise up, but because he was so passionate, so loud, so compelling with his messages that he caught the ears of the white youth even without being the industry's choice. And this is what lead to his death IMO.

Which is the difference between Pac's rise and Jay's rise, to me. Jay kissed the ass of the industry, for the most part (at least following Reasonable Doubt). Pac spit at the industry and ultimately suffered for it.


>Shit, even Kanye - unlike Jay, he put himself out there
>numerous times. All the rants, the ego, etc...

Definitely. I think his stuff is far less threatening than Tupac's appeared to be, though. He's more a conscious guy with a temper than a thug with a mission like Pac was.


>It just seems to me that a lot of black artists that really
>reached certain peaks had to take huge risks, had to really
>challenge society, and usually had a seminal FU moment (or a
>few) in order to reach a certain level of success.

Word. I agree with you.


>Jay seems to be one of the guys who kinda stayed lowkey,
>didn't cause no trouble, and somehow rode that to the
>top...logic would tell you that's the best way to reach the
>level he reached, but it doesn't seem to work for many other
>black artists who just get lost in the shuffle...

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I definitely hear you with regards to 2Pac and his death - I'm not sure I believe that, but it's very plausible.

And I definitely agree that 2Pac's loudness and boldness was instrumental in his image and success. Nobody has really been that loud since, which I guess brings up another factor that's very important...

Hip-hop is a very young genre. Very few have reached huge levels of success. Again, my belief is that as of now, most who did did so by really attacking the industry...

However, now hip-hop is maturing and it's blown up to the point where that's not necessary. Cats like Drake won't ever have to have an FU moment, but he has any opportunity he wants.

In a sense, I kind of see Jay-Z as the precursor to Drake - the lowkey, quite guy who "kinda" sold out, appeased the powers that be, dropped hit after hit, and became HUGE. We'll probably see this be the case more more aship hop becomes more mainstream, and that FU moment won't be necessary to catch people's attention.

EDIT - I guess maybe my question is, was Jay-Z one of the first black artists, or hip hop artists, to reach enormous levels of success w/o having that FU moment despite coming up in a time when that was the way to garner attention and make a name for yourself?

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

I think previously the industry powers thought rap music to be a fad a la disco that would die out by the time the 90s ended. That clearly didn't happen (and never will) and instead, rap has continued to grow/expand/diversify and take over the charts. So the industry folks needed to change their tone, and this has allowed for people like Jay and Drake (to use your examples) to remain and become relevant with different styles than what used to blow up.

And to respond to your re-worded question, I definitely think JayZ was the first from his time period to succeed to the kind of levels he has without having first tossed a middle finger up to the industry. For sure.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

but the lyrics in the first verse of 99 problems says a ton:


Got beef with radio if I don't play they show
They don't play my hits well I don't give a shit SO
Rap mags try and use my black ass
So advertisers can give em more cash for ads...fuckers


In my opinion Jay never catered to the main stream... he just stayed in his lane and dropped an album damn near every summer.

>In my opinion Jay never catered to the main stream... he just
>stayed in his lane and dropped an album damn near every
>summer.


I agree that he just kept dropping albums every year and this kept him relevant.

However, I think to say he NEVER catered to the mainstream is a bit of a reach, even to the biggest Jay supporters...

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

>However, I think to say he NEVER catered to the mainstream is
>a bit of a reach, even to the biggest Jay supporters...

Let's go album for album:

RD - jumping on the Biggie/Nas bandwagon trying to capitalize off their successes (more Biggie's than Nas')...PROOF: the mafioso themes throughout the album, the Biggie feature.
In My Lifetime Vol. 1 - jumping on the Puffy/flashy bandwagon of the late 90s. PROOF: Sunshine (song & video)
In My Lifetime Vol. 2 - jumping on the DMX/Ruff Ryders bandwagon. PROOF: Money, Cash, Hoes
(In My Lifetime Vol. 3 and Blueprint may be the only albums where he didn't blatantly try and cater to the mainstream)
Blueprint II - jumping on the Neptunes bandwagon; standard "big rap name" double album, featuring every hot artist you can think of. PROOF: Excuse Me Miss
Etc etc. etc.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

If you do your research you'll see that Jay-Z already outlined in great detail what he was going to do in the industry.

And he did it to a T.

Hate it or love it, Jay only ever wanted to hustle the rap game. And he did exactly that and then some. So it should be obvious that he's not into the politics of the game, or ruffling feathers which, lets be honest, has achieved absolutley zilch. It's all for show basically.

And if Pac was alive I'm pretty sure he'd be doing what Cube is doing now. And who was a more threatening F.U. character than Cube?

he is a corporate bought hand basically. he wasn't much until after biggie and pac died. and he still was never that dude.

ain't nobody scared of the Camel except the zoo that let him leave the zoo.

i crack up at Lay Z fans, He is way up there as One of the Most Overrated turkeys to ever get on a Mic.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

he ever tossed a middle finger up at the industry a la Tupac, etc.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

because he is very much in line with the establishment.

Pac made white folks feel uncomfortable, Lay Z fits in big difference.

if he stopped making albums and stop grinning and trying to be all up under Oprah, Warren Buffet,etc..

the Camel knows which dessert to go in.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

With the biggest of chips on his shoulder a midst questions about his waning skills and relevancy, he released what is easily the most provocative album in his catalog if not his downright best.

'Oh, I can't spit anymore?'
- FU, "No Hook"

'Oh, I've lost the fun?'
- FU, "Roc Boys"

American Gangster is an exercise in making a great rap album. I could go on about it forever. But the story here is not really the album itself, it's about the boldness of releasing it in the first place. He was left for dead and rightfully so in the wake of Kingdom Come. But rather than lay down and die he pulled himself up by the bootstraps and became more focused than he'd been in a long time.

This album gets barely any recognition, and he rarely even plays anything from it live. But American Gangster saved his career. In half a year's time he'd be headlining Glastonbury and his ascent in the wake of this record saw him not only transcending the Ludacrises and Young Jeezys of the world, but launching into a stratosphere previously only reserved by your Elvis, Madonna, and Prince types.

similar to Doc and I's Blueprint discussion above, this is less an "FU" to the industry (which is the OP's question) than it is a bold career move/resurrection. None of American Gangster was a shot at the industry.

That said, though, I used to shit on American Gangster but it's grown on me and I agree with your analysis about it resurrecting his career.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

you could view it that way as his "FU to the industry." The record had to have been a hard sell, but when you're Jay-Z you kind of just do what you want.

I don't think that was the basis of the OP's question, is all I'm saying.

His comparison later in this post was JayZ to Tupac. Tupac who literally spit in the face of the industry and the world and didn't particularly give a fuck. Many other rap artists have had these moments as well, in fact most have. The question is whether or not Jay ever really went that route to get to the top, and the answer (at least IMO) is absolutely not.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

yea, probably not. But when you write songs better than just about anyone else in your genre not name Kanye West or Outkast, you don't really have to resort to stunts.

I'm trying to keep things focused here.

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"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

I agree 100%

"Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds."-Albert Einstein

http://twitter.com/#!/TonyHanesPoetry

phemom's the name, all-star writer/
searching 4 journalistic fame, mindframe igniter....www.twitter.com/hayabusaage

______________________________________
geometric poop, getchya shit straight

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