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Subject: "Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)" Previous topic | Next topic
imcvspl
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Wed Feb-22-12 12:46 PM

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"Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)"


  

          

Been heavy into this period of late, the birth and refinement of his 'fusion'. Perhaps the last surge jazz had proper (not just him but in this period with him being critical in it). Wasn't always well received but decades later definitely left a permanent mark.

I always found the notion of 'fusion' strange because people always wanted to associate it as a jazz + rock or jazz + funk or both. But I don't really hear it that way at all. I really hear it as jazz embracing technology. Of course at the time technology was the realm of funk and rock, but stylistically. I mean yeah you can tell he was hanging out with Hendrix and getting put on to all of the latest and greatest. But what they were doing was still jazz through and through. You can't throw these things in a rock or funk mix without them standing out as not in the genre. But when you play them even with classic jazz stuff despite the sonic differences, a lot of the form retains.

It was of course much freer. but the whole idea of free jazz (in this context) is a bit of a misnomer). Jazz had been free way before free jazz. You don't always get it from records, but in the live setting jazz had been about taking a head and playing off that with other musicians in an improvised manner.

But what happened in this period was that the bands got bigger without taking the shape of a big band. So when someone's soloing it's not just the rhythm section accompanying. You get all these other textural layers happening and they don't necessarily have to stay locked in a groove.

Thing that's really caught me about this is that, not many have picked it up. I mean people have taken pieces, but except for little niches of artists no progression has been made from this (<<<< attack me here). I think it's because of the backlash from fans and critics. There's this general impression that people don't want this. But surely I'm not alone.

Another point this listening really brought to light is how much of a band leader Miles was. When you listen he's not always playing or always in the front. Often live he was walking around the stage actually giving the players cues to get the sound that he was looking for. The pieces themselves are works in progress that he sculpts on the stage. He's like a conductor. And then he'll pick up his horn and blow, but never over done, Always precise and in many regards reserved. When you hear him you know it, but even more when you're listening to his band, even when he's not playing you know its him.

And this was all in his fucking forties!! His legacy was solid, he had nothing else to prove. Could have retired and been a legend for decades to come, but he couldn't he had to keep pushing. And how did he do that? He found out what was pulsing with the youth. Took him under his wing and gave them the direction. Those players went on to do incredible things in their own right, much of which can be credited to how the time with Miles shaped them.

He stopped playing after 74 until the 80's, and while there were some nice ideas that came out then I think this may have been his last great period. Let's give it up for Miles:

1968

Miles Davis - Miles In The Sky (Columbia CS 9628)
Miles Davis - Filles De Kilimanjaro (Columbia CS 9750)
Miles Davis - The Complete In A Silent Way Sessions (September 1968-February 1969) (Mosaic MQ5-209)

1969

Miles Davis - In A Silent Way (Columbia CS 9875)
Miles Davis - 1969 Miles: Festiva De Juan Pins (CBS/Sony (J) SRCS 6843)
The Selected Works Of Chick Corea - Music Forever And Beyond (GRP GRD 5-9819)
Miles Davis Interview, 4 Aug., 1969 (Columbia)
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew (Columbia GP 26)
Miles Davis - Double Image (Moon (It) MLP 010/11)
LXXIII. Miles Davis Quintets - Bitches Brew Live (The Golden Age Of Jazz (It) JZCD 373)
Miles Davis - Spanish Key (Lunch For Your Ears (E) LFYE 001)
Miles Davis - Paraphernalia (Jazz Music Yesterday (It) JMY 1013-2)
Miles Davis - Big Fun (Columbia C 32866)
Miles Davis - The Complete Bitches Brew Sessions (August 1969-February 1970) (Mosaic MQ6-183)

1970

Miles Davis - Live/Evil (Columbia G 30954)
Miles Davis - A Tribute To Jack Johnson (Columbia S 30455)
Miles Davis - Hill Auditorium 2/21/'70 (Jazz Masters (G) JM 006)
Miles Davis - It's About That Time: Live At The Fillmore East, March 7, 1970 (Columbia/Legacy C2K 85191)
Miles Davis At Fillmore West - Black Beauty (CBS/Sony (J) SOPJ 39/40)
Miles Davis - Get Up With It (Columbia KG 33236)
Miles Davis At Fillmore (Columbia G 30038)
V.A. - The First Great Rock Festivals Of The Seventies - Isle Of Wight - Atlanta Pop Festival (Columbia G3X 30805)
Miles Davis - Fillmore West 10/17/'70 (Jazz Masters (G) JM 007)

1971 (age 45)

Miles Davis - Lennies On The Turnpike '71 (Jazz Masters (G) JM 001/02)
LXXIV. Miles Davis Band - Miles Davis + Keith Jarrett Live (The Golden Age Of Jazz (It) JZCD 374)
Miles Davis - Neue Stadthalle, Switzerland 10/22/'71 (Jazz Masters (G) JM 008/09)
Miles Davis - Another Bitches Brew (Jazz Door (G) JD 1284/85)
Miles Davis - Two Miles Live (Discurios (It) DIS 201 LP)
Miles Davis - Berlin And Beyond (Lunch For Your Ears (E) LFYE 006/07)
Miles Davis In Sweden 1971 (Miles MD 1)
Hooray For Miles Davis, Vol. 3 (Session Disc 123)

1972

Miles Davis - On The Corner (Columbia KC 31906)
Miles Davis In Concert (Columbia KG 32092)

1973

Miles Davis - Black Satin (Jazz Masters (G) JM 011/12)
Miles Davis - More Live Evil (Zipperdeke (J) ZIP 009)
Miles Davis - Ife (Lunch For Your Ears (E) LFYE 002)
Miles Davis - "Isle Of Wight" (Columbia (F) 450472.1)
Miles Davis - Unknown Sessions 1973-1976, Vol. 1 (Kind Of Blue (J) KOB 001)
Miles Davis - Call It What It Is (Jazz Music Yesterday (It) JMY ME 6403)
Miles Davis - Berlin '73 (Jazz Masters (G) JM 003)
Miles Davis - Palais Des Sports, Paris 1973 (Jazz Masters (G) JM 016)

1974

Miles Davis - Dark Magus (CBS/Sony (J) 28AP 2165/66)

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Love this period
Feb 22nd 2012
1
"Files De Kilamanjaro" is one of the most beautiful albums...
Feb 22nd 2012
2
Filles... is the best from this era IMO...
Feb 22nd 2012
3
Not sure if I'm surprised about this or not
Feb 22nd 2012
5
yea,..
Feb 22nd 2012
8
      '67
Feb 22nd 2012
10
           RE: Nefertitti
Feb 22nd 2012
13
                Listening to Water Babies
May 24th 2012
61
RE: What are your thoughts on the Japanese concerts?
Feb 22nd 2012
4
Haven't revisited them yet *edit*
Feb 22nd 2012
6
      RE: It's really easy music to lose yourself in.
Feb 22nd 2012
11
           Listening to Tokyo 1975 right now
May 24th 2012
60
this is exactly how I thought of that sort of music
Feb 22nd 2012
7
68-72 was the last of the Prime and Peak IMO
Feb 22nd 2012
9
Can you articulate why you singled out the Betty influence
Feb 22nd 2012
14
      well he got funky and raw
Feb 22nd 2012
16
           My take
Feb 22nd 2012
27
                no i haven't heard that, however like Syretta Wright for Stevie Wonder
Feb 22nd 2012
28
                Definitely agree about going full in
Feb 24th 2012
43
                are yuo differentiating
Feb 23rd 2012
36
                     i just see the influence as more personal
Feb 23rd 2012
37
                          ohh shit
Feb 24th 2012
41
RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)
Feb 22nd 2012
12
Miles Himself said it was Louis Armstrong and how can you argue?
Feb 22nd 2012
24
upped this for you
Feb 22nd 2012
25
      Louis Armstrong was the Originator and did Be Bop first
Feb 22nd 2012
29
           posted more to show how Miles was more inclined to
Feb 22nd 2012
30
           RE: Louis Armstrong was the Originator and did Be Bop first
Mar 06th 2013
80
actually he did give a fuck
Feb 10th 2013
70
      RE: Exactly.
Feb 10th 2013
71
To reiterate from the OG and state something else
Feb 22nd 2012
15
That's what trips me out most about it.
Feb 22nd 2012
26
      I think so
Feb 24th 2012
44
It's amazing how he kept going forward and was never lazy.
Feb 22nd 2012
17
I really love his solo on "Right Off" from Jack Johnson
Feb 22nd 2012
18
i study 68-74,..
Feb 22nd 2012
19
you missed Water Babies
Feb 22nd 2012
20
#10
Feb 22nd 2012
22
RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)
Feb 22nd 2012
21
RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)
Feb 22nd 2012
23
RE: What about that stuff from the Bitches Brew sessions. . .
Feb 22nd 2012
31
Honestly... can't stand sitar out of context
Feb 22nd 2012
33
      RE: And I understand that.
Feb 22nd 2012
34
           very true
Feb 24th 2012
42
this era is my absolute favorite
Feb 22nd 2012
32
this should not leave the front page for a least a week
Feb 22nd 2012
35
Thoughts
Feb 23rd 2012
38
These things were ALWAYS present in jazz!!
Feb 23rd 2012
39
      you're absolutely right
Feb 24th 2012
40
Thanks for forgiving the age discrepancy!!
Feb 24th 2012
45
Miles 63 thru 68 band is the best he ever had.
Feb 24th 2012
46
pic or it don't exist
Feb 24th 2012
47
Co-sign...
Feb 24th 2012
49
      with all due respect
Feb 25th 2012
55
Crazy thing...
Feb 24th 2012
48
I don't really like that album...
Feb 24th 2012
50
on the corner is like the album that i still think that if you could sam...
Feb 25th 2012
52
i fuckin love Miles Smiles
Feb 25th 2012
54
      Miles Smiles is one of my fav in his discog for sure.
Jan 13th 2016
84
absolutely
Feb 25th 2012
56
upp'd
Feb 25th 2012
51
I love this era of Miles...
Feb 25th 2012
53
Up for Ike^^^
May 21st 2012
57
i'm pleased that this post was upped.
May 21st 2012
58
Oh yeah Jakob you owe us some propper shittage!!!
May 21st 2012
59
^^^
Jan 27th 2013
63
      It's coming...
Feb 01st 2013
64
           RE: It's coming...
Feb 02nd 2013
65
           Can we just go back and forth?
Feb 05th 2013
66
                RE: Can we just go back and forth?
Feb 11th 2013
72
RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)
Jul 12th 2012
62
RE: Have you gotten this yet, man?
Feb 10th 2013
67
Wow!!
Feb 10th 2013
68
      RE: I haven't even looked at the DVD yet, but it's a full set.
Feb 10th 2013
69
This post needs videos
Mar 05th 2013
73
"Ife" (1973)
Mar 05th 2013
74
damn, forgot this shit had links
Jan 14th 2016
87
"Turnaroundphrase" (1973)
Mar 05th 2013
75
"Tanglewood" (1971)
Mar 05th 2013
76
vid's been blocked
Jan 14th 2016
88
"Yesternow" (1971)
Mar 05th 2013
77
"What I Say" (1971)
Mar 05th 2013
78
"Directions / Bitches Brew" (1969)
Mar 05th 2013
79
Copenhagen '69 - full set
Mar 06th 2013
81
Maybe Esperanza...
Jan 13th 2016
82
THIS is MY fav period.
Jan 13th 2016
83
RWQ
Jan 13th 2016
86
On the Corner is really one of the first hiphop records.
Jan 13th 2016
85

Call It Anything
Member since Aug 13th 2005
10951 posts
Wed Feb-22-12 12:52 PM

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1. "Love this period"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I wrote a paper on Jack Johnson for a Miles class that I took in college.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
44490 posts
Wed Feb-22-12 12:58 PM

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2. " "Files De Kilamanjaro" is one of the most beautiful albums..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...that I've ever heard. I feel like it gets sorta forgotten, but it might be my favorite of his.

I probably haven't heard enough of his albums from this period. Of the album listed, I've only got "Files," "Bitches Brew," "In a Silent Way," and the "On the Corner" sessions boxset. All of those are great though.

-----------------

www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

https://www.mixcloud.com/returntozero/

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9765 posts
Wed Feb-22-12 01:16 PM

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3. "Filles... is the best from this era IMO..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

It belongs to his earlier post-bop era stylistically I guess but at the same time, there is electric piano, electric bass and also more soul and rock-inspired rhythms. I think the album is also practically devoid of "walking" basslines which separates it from the earlier era. Actually, Ron Carter had been gradually moving away from that but here, he (and Dave Holland) make it explicit.

Anyway, not a fan of electric Miles in general. I'll go more indepth on why later...

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Feb-22-12 01:31 PM

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5. "Not sure if I'm surprised about this or not"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>Anyway, not a fan of electric Miles in general. I'll go more
>indepth on why later...

I'll wait to hear your thoughts.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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the_lorax
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Wed Feb-22-12 01:42 PM

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8. "yea,.."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

although it was 1976 i think water babies is a close second

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Wed Feb-22-12 01:47 PM

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10. "'67"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>although it was 1976 i think water babies is a close second

Another great album. I was actually having trouble figuring out a start date. I wanted to say 70's but it's obviously before then. In my mind Water Babies and Neffertiti are right on the cusp as well.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Austin
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Wed Feb-22-12 01:53 PM

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13. "RE: Nefertitti"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Is nearly like acoustic fusion.

~Austin

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imcvspl
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61. "Listening to Water Babies"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

By the time you get to "Two Faced" you can hear the glass ceiling being banged against which would have to be broken to move forward. Makes so much sense in the timeline. Again lots of sound creation but showing potential once the limitations were done away with.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Austin
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Wed Feb-22-12 01:22 PM

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4. "RE: What are your thoughts on the Japanese concerts?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Pangaea and Agharta, specifically.

I was into them when I was really digging into this period of Miles in my early 20's. I mean, I say I was "into" the albums because I was just buying up everything from that period, but I can honestly say I didn't understand what the hell I was listening to. I've gone back them a lot in the last few years and they make more sense as the years pass.

(aside: that must have sounded like some music from another galaxy in the 70's!)

I liked what you said about how Miles sculpted while performing. I think that's really displayed on the Japanese albums. In Paul Tingen's book (which I definitely recommend), he makes the observation that Miles was inspired by Teo Macero's tape editing of the studio albums to the point where he wanted the band to perform that same way live. I think he succeeded.

~Austin

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imcvspl
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Wed Feb-22-12 01:34 PM

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6. "Haven't revisited them yet *edit*"
In response to Reply # 4
Wed Feb-22-12 01:51 PM by imcvspl

  

          

>Pangaea and Agharta, specifically.
>
>I was into them when I was really digging into this period of
>Miles in my early 20's. I mean, I say I was "into" the albums
>because I was just buying up everything from that period, but
>I can honestly say I didn't understand what the hell I was
>listening to. I've gone back them a lot in the last few years
>and they make more sense as the years pass.
>
>(aside: that must have sounded like some music from another
>galaxy in the 70's!)

In general my early take on this period was like this though. I remember first hearing Bitches Brew and Live/Evil and just being like "WHOA!!" and then "WHAT?" Then I tucked my tails between my legs for a few years. Maybe ten years ago it started clicking, and now shit now I'm like "FUCK YEAH!!"

*edit* A big part of that was the anniversary release of Bitches Brew with all the sessions and extended liner notes. Reading about that stuff really helped to contextualize what I was hearing.

>I liked what you said about how Miles sculpted while
>performing. I think that's really displayed on the Japanese
>albums. In Paul Tingen's book (which I definitely recommend),
>he makes the observation that Miles was inspired by Teo
>Macero's tape editing of the studio albums to the point where
>he wanted the band to perform that same way live. I think he
>succeeded.

Will have to grab that book, because that is an interesting assessment and makes a lot of sense. Really forward thinking whenyou think about it. Live in the studio playing into studio production feeding back into live on stage. A constant progression of sound.

There's an interview with Teo saying all the wah wah stuff was added after. I'm hard pressed to find it but I feel like Miles did end up taking it on stage too. Another example of that loop.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Austin
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11. "RE: It's really easy music to lose yourself in."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

I think that's why it still demands repeat listens for me. It really is all encompassing.

~Austin

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imcvspl
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60. "Listening to Tokyo 1975 right now"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

There's just so many sounds. It's insane. Steady grove maintained, but then between the guitars and miles just so many exploration of sonic layers that can be placed over the groove. Much foreshadowing.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Dr Claw
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7. "this is exactly how I thought of that sort of music"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>I really hear it as jazz embracing technology.

it was a different way of going left than free jazz was going.

hearing the stories of those musicians who were loath to embrace technology only confirms this.

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Wed Feb-22-12 01:46 PM

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9. "68-72 was the last of the Prime and Peak IMO"
In response to Reply # 0


          

73-74 good to hit and miss IMO.

but 68-72 you could clearly hear a shift in his approach to his making and Betty Davis had a impact on his direction with what he heard and how he heard the grooves and rhythms in his music.

i admire the fact he kept his thing young and fresh and yet he had that Vet attitude underneath it all, he kept it Professional at the same time.

the music and the artwork all took an incredible turn and left you waiting more.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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imcvspl
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14. "Can you articulate why you singled out the Betty influence"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

I have some thoughts but want to hear you more first.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Wed Feb-22-12 02:22 PM

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16. "well he got funky and raw"
In response to Reply # 14


          

now obviously as has been noted the Sly and the Family stone, James Brown, Motown, Jimi Hendrix,P Funk,etc.. wave was kicking in and he didn't want to be called the old Man with the Horn.

he wanted a more Urban chic tone and feel and i sense that the change was a complete do over from the past.

from head to toe. i mean its like when James Brown,Sammy Davis Jr and Jackie Wilson went back to the Natural there was a whole spiritual and mental approach that also went into the creative process and it bore from there IMO


Betty was that inspiration and as the case usually beyond every good Man is a Great Woman who makes you see things and when it involves creativity then the galaxy is even wider.

Miles Davis the Musician and Miles Davis the person were two different cats.

what he allowed Michael Henderson and especially John Mclaughlin to do in terms of solos certainly pointed to a different attitude than the same dude who played "Carnegie Hall" just in 1964. the whole attitude and mindset changed. thats just part of my take.

i followed his career and while He was a Great Musical Genius and the coolest of the cool, IMO He was a even better talent scout and he allowed new energy to breath in his musical stew which kept him fresh.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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imcvspl
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42239 posts
Wed Feb-22-12 03:15 PM

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27. "My take"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Betty definitely had an influence on keeping Miles' ear to the streets. But I don't really see her per se as an influence on his music as much as on his person. Her music is straight ahead funk and by the virtue of their relationship he absorbed all of those elements, but it's not exactly like an influence.... hmmm how can I put this better.

Have you heard the "Politician Man" demo? I think that exchanged opened up something to me about them musically. Like it's not that they weren't musically compatible but they were just doing different things.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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Wed Feb-22-12 03:27 PM

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28. "no i haven't heard that, however like Syretta Wright for Stevie Wonder"
In response to Reply # 27


          

i think it did carry over musically because that attitude in style also reflected in his music and prior to that Miles was a Smoothed out cat with the blues, but he totally flipped his switch and went in full in.

cats like him are extreme like that and he went for the fullness with it.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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zuma1986
Member since Dec 18th 2006
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43. "Definitely agree about going full in"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

And that's something that's missing from a lot music these days. Artists a lot of times are afraid to go full into stuff, they dip their toes in a lot of different things but don't explore sounds fully like before.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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36. "are yuo differentiating "
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

influence and inspiration? 'cause if not, i don't see how you are not agreeing with maxxx here

  

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imcvspl
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37. "i just see the influence as more personal"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

than musical. of course at the root of the musical is the person and so in that regard she had the biggest impact on him. But when I listen to that demo, I don't hear musical compatibility. It's not bad but definitely not the sum of their parts.

regardless i'm not denying her influence just thinking on how I see it musically. I just found it interesting that she's the main name maxxx brought up in his initial reply and wondered how he saw that value.

again for me when people say rock or funk for this period for miles i just don't hear it that way. was he listening to those things? absolutely, was he influenced by it sure. but only the how it was made, i.e. electrified. the rhythms of rock and the rhythms of funk come from jazz. it's jazz riffs placed in standard repetition. miles isn't playing that. miles is playing jazz. but he's using the same electrified instrumentation they were.

but maybe i'm arguing against my own argument here.

  

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astralblak
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41. "ohh shit"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

disregard my statement below. i see what you're saying now very clearly.

the student (funk/rock) can't come before the teacher (jazz)? wait I don't think that's a good analogy, but basically you're saying Miles and others placed the instruments of rock and funk into jazz and expanded on the palatte(sp) that Rock and Funk spawned from.

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
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Wed Feb-22-12 01:52 PM

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12. "RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)"
In response to Reply # 0


          



This^^^is why he is GOAT in Jazz....I mean, it's him, Duke and L. Armstrong battling it out...I go with Miles, but I can see how others can go the other way...

But the thing that swings it his way was his willingness to say, 'Fuck the traditional guard...I'm doing me...

Miles didn't give a fuck....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
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24. "Miles Himself said it was Louis Armstrong and how can you argue?"
In response to Reply # 12


          

SatchMo changed the game period. had the voice that alone would have been Hall of fame worthy.

had great timeless songs which have held up for many a decade period 1)

and his trumpet playing is better than Miles IMO as is Clark terry's and Clifford Brown, however Miles had a incredible concepts and the arrangements and directions gave his music so much life and expansion.2)

i'm a huge Miles Davis Fan and I use to have all of those albums even his first. he came along way over his debut to birth of the cool and then onwards.

Duke Ellington had a style all his own and he was my first introduction to Jazz and he will always hold a special place especially when I go to Brooklyn.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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imcvspl
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25. "upped this for you"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2661765&mesg_id=2661765&page=
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mistermaxxx08
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29. "Louis Armstrong was the Originator and did Be Bop first"
In response to Reply # 25


          

and i mean while i didn't like the grinning and whatnot, that man was a Musical Genius with a voice that was smooth and his playing was just as scary.

he took a shot as have other Great artists toward other acts. James Brown always took shots at new funkateers who were the next thing,etc..

its part of the insecurity and comeptitive nature which is timeless.

Satchmo even being funny and what have you has that tempo and control downpat.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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imcvspl
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30. "posted more to show how Miles was more inclined to"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

embrace the to.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Goodgame
Member since Nov 25th 2012
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Wed Mar-06-13 06:33 AM

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80. "RE: Louis Armstrong was the Originator and did Be Bop first"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

Excuse me, but I am from Kansas City, and I just wanted to put a name out there, that seems to be absent from this discussion, and its really buggin me bcuz I dont know why nobody would mention him in this debate about originators of the improvisational style that changed the game for Jazz music.... CHARLIE "BIRD" PARKER. But if yall are just talking trumpet players.... it's cool, I get it. Miles and Satchmo were definently in leagues of their own, so you cant really compare the two. Michael Jordan and Mike Tyson

1, William Goodgame

  

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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
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70. "actually he did give a fuck"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

this is exactly the sort of attitude that fucks up people's legacies, you've never heard Miles have the sentiment you just attached to him
he never had the attitude of forgetting what came before him, he revered Duke Ellington until the day he died (and is buried beside him)
he looked back all the time, but he kept going forward

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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Austin
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71. "RE: Exactly."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

Miles didn't give a fuck what people thought of his "new" bands because he knew the music he was making felt good in his heart.

In his mind, On the Corner was inspired by Duke.

~Austin

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imcvspl
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15. "To reiterate from the OG and state something else"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A MAN IN HIS 40's!!!!

AND

LOOK AT HOW MANY RELEASES IN A SIX YEAR PERIOD!!!
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Dr Claw
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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26. "That's what trips me out most about it."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A MAN IN HIS 40's!!!!
>
>AND
>
>LOOK AT HOW MANY RELEASES IN A SIX YEAR PERIOD!!!

Was it because he was primarily associated with jazz that it was so accepted?

  

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zuma1986
Member since Dec 18th 2006
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44. "I think so"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>Was it because he was primarily associated with jazz that it
>was so accepted?

I mean by the late 60's Jazz wasn't exactly what the youth was listening to, so Miles could still shine in the Jazz world without worrying about being swept away by the next wave. Not that new artists were coming up but when dealing with a younger audience they're less loyal and especially to artists that started out before their time. Or at least that's how I see it.

  

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BlackandProud
Member since Feb 08th 2012
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Wed Feb-22-12 02:25 PM

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17. "It's amazing how he kept going forward and was never lazy."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Feb-22-12 02:25 PM by BlackandProud

          

And he not only that but he was able to keep quality amongst quantity. That says a lot because he was able to not only record a lot in such a time period but record great, innovative records as well. It's an even match. Miles was a genius and incredible.

  

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Errol Walton Barrow
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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18. "I really love his solo on "Right Off" from Jack Johnson"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It has a great swing, a shuffling character to it, and the squeals are great and controlled.

I don't know what my favourite electric Miles album is, whether its the dark poured out solo on In a Silent Way, or the ill funk on On the Corner but that "right off" captivates me every time I hear it.

-------
http://adevotedappraisal.tumblr.com - Essays, reviews, short stories and free writes on music, film and life around us.

  

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the_lorax
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19. "i study 68-74,.."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but i listen to 63-68,..

miles 80s period is solid too,..
going back to the warner brothers stuff, he stayed rooted in the polyrythm melodic-harmony bridge's concept unless he did more pop stuff like time after time.

live-evil,..

on side A at track 01 at about 4:30, that groove,...
on side B track 02 at about 15:30, Kieth Jarret solo, dada dah da dah, dah dada dah,..

the little church stuff,..

Side B last track, inamorata,..the drum break, miles wah trumpet, the baseline,..

i think there could have been more cohesion with in "circle" paradox within 6 minutes(bitch's brew is his masterpiece in that regard),..

But as far as progression,..
i guess we would have to pick on some of the b sides from the full bitch's brew album , big fun, and water babies, and the improvements with technique to, and the technology related to tapeloops,..



  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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20. "you missed Water Babies"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it released in 76, but recorded in 1968

i'll be back with thoughts on this period later

  

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imcvspl
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22. "#10"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Funkymusic
Member since Sep 19th 2008
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Wed Feb-22-12 02:46 PM

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21. "RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What a coincident that you posted about this period. I stumbled upon Get Up With It on sunday and picked up a copy. Its a good album.

signature pose.

  

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Strangeways
Member since Jul 10th 2007
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Wed Feb-22-12 02:50 PM

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23. "RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Feb-22-12 02:51 PM by Strangeways

          

I used to have the miles davis tribute to jack johnson lp back when I was in my freshman year of high school 1995 and I remember it being very long and sounding pretty exotic.

  

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Austin
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31. "RE: What about that stuff from the Bitches Brew sessions. . ."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

. . .that has the really heavy (arguably almost cartoony) use of tablas, sitar and "eastern" sounds?

(the stuff that was released as Big Fun; it's mostly the last disc of the complete sessions box set)

I've always really liked that stuff because it's just another example of Miles doing stuff that's new and letting it sort itself out.

~Austin

  

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imcvspl
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33. "Honestly... can't stand sitar out of context"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

It's a beautiful instrument, but it sets its own tone. You can't just throw a sitar in the mix without it changing everything.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Austin
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34. "RE: And I understand that."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

That's why I said those songs almost seem cartoony in their use of those instruments: it sounds as if they said, "Okay, play this" without really understanding how it should be used.

Some nice textures in those songs though.

~Austin

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astralblak
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Fri Feb-24-12 12:10 AM

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42. "very true"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

.

  

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Crash Bandacoot
Member since May 13th 2003
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32. "this era is my absolute favorite"
In response to Reply # 0


          

very experimental period. rock, soul, funk, jazz -> fusion can't be beat.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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35. "this should not leave the front page for a least a week"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
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38. "Thoughts"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>1968
>Miles Davis - Miles In The Sky (Columbia CS 9628)
>Miles Davis - Filles De Kilimanjaro (Columbia CS 9750)

>1969
>Miles Davis - In A Silent Way (Columbia CS 9875)
>The Selected Works Of Chick Corea - Music Forever And Beyond
>(GRP GRD 5-9819)
>Miles Davis - Bitches Brew (Columbia GP 26)
>Miles Davis - Big Fun (Columbia C 32866)

>1970
>Miles Davis - A Tribute To Jack Johnson (Columbia S 30455)

>1972
>Miles Davis - On The Corner (Columbia KC 31906)

>1973
>Miles Davis - Black Satin (Jazz Masters (G) JM 011/12)
>Miles Davis - Ife (Lunch For Your Ears (E) LFYE 002)

>1974
>Miles Davis - Dark Magus (CBS/Sony (J) 28AP 2165/66)


those are all the albums, including Water Babies and Miles In The Sky, (which i don't know why they were excluded from the list) that i have spent time with. And by spend time, I mean a lot of hours, in particular the years of 2001-2007.

when I'm not afraid to hide my art-fag pretense, this is without a doubt my favorite period of music, for music in general and Miles in particular. Without the technical knowledge of how to speak about jazz, i always speak of and engage with the music from a personal, emotive, cultural and historical level. To me the music aesthetically and emotively reflects a lot of the racial/social turmoil of the period, but it's beyond that. Miles was trusting his band-mates and listeners with a whole lot.

He had the audacity to record and play live PROCESS. not completed ideas. no here is a beginning, the middle and end of songs. but a simple groove / rhythm that lead to he and all the musicians laying layer upon layer of sound with and against each other. some times when certain songs end, you feel its due to fatigue/ exhaustion rather than the "idea" being complete.

Though i agree that I don't here much Rock in Miles' jazz-fusion recordings (with Mahavishnu it's undeniable), there is no way to deny the funk. i mean by the time we get to Dark Magus, Miles and his team are DEEP in the bowels of the funk sound, feel, attitude. its hyper sexual, strong, proud, and angry. it is kind of fitting that it was his last recording before the 6-8 year hiatus.

Than you get me thinking of his age, something i have never considered. He wasn't in his 30s, but 40s! pushing himself and the MANY DIFFERENT MUSICIANS to expand, bend, re-interpret and re-imagine what sound/noise was and could be. It's the type of aesthetic asceticism that is rarely found in artist 20s. but than again there was sumthin in the water 'cause this desire for a "new" sonic language was found in the works of Coltrane, Sun Raw, Zawinal and Pastorious.

without a doubt when those phrases of epic, legendary, ect get thrown around, i believe this is one of the few times they fit.

  

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imcvspl
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Thu Feb-23-12 11:24 PM

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39. "These things were ALWAYS present in jazz!!"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

>Though i agree that I don't here much Rock in Miles'
>jazz-fusion recordings (with Mahavishnu it's undeniable),
>there is no way to deny the funk. i mean by the time we get to
>Dark Magus, Miles and his team are DEEP in the bowels of the
>funk sound, feel, attitude. its hyper sexual, strong, proud,
>and angry. it is kind of fitting that it was his last
>recording before the 6-8 year hiatus.

All of those things were ALWAYS in jazz! Always. To that point they just hadn't been taken to that point of electrification. Jazz bass then is still an upright. Keys were piano. Drummers weren't mic'd the same if they were at all. Most of the jazz guitarists had left for other genres so they could be up front. So when you break from that cannon and pick up those instruments, but you're coming from the musical background of jazz but want to take that compositionally to another level. WHOOOOOOOOOO that's a hell of a formula. But the music itself is still jazz. The provocativeness, the attitude, the sexuality, the pride and strength, the anger, all of that shit was always in jazz.

That's my only point of contention though. Spot on with all the rest.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Fri Feb-24-12 12:03 AM

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40. "you're absolutely right"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

BUT than those elements are present in all genres no, it's the type of sound we're speaking of NO? i would say Miles and crew were still playing jazz, yes electrified jazz (LOL, that sounds funny to me), but bending it more towards the funk. The funk of say James, Sly and Funkadelic.

  

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imcvspl
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45. "Thanks for forgiving the age discrepancy!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mathmagic
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Fri Feb-24-12 03:59 PM

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46. "Miles 63 thru 68 band is the best he ever had."
In response to Reply # 0


          

i'm actually rockin my custom Miles & Wayne & Herbie & Ron & Tony t-shirt as I type... Them niggas was smokin! Every album they did was slicker than. That WaterBabies album is a real bitch. Filles... is a favorite too.

Jordan!

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Fri Feb-24-12 04:01 PM

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47. "pic or it don't exist"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>i'm actually rockin my custom Miles & Wayne & Herbie & Ron &
>Tony t-shirt as I type...

Is it a word format one?

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9765 posts
Fri Feb-24-12 08:15 PM

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49. "Co-sign..."
In response to Reply # 46


          

Still waiting for the right moment to shit on his fusion-era. Too drunk now, let's just say shit was WAY too static. A lot of inner movement-sure but when the rhythm section is laying down a static groove while the soloists acts free... Not a great idea

  

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Crash Bandacoot
Member since May 13th 2003
10097 posts
Sat Feb-25-12 09:43 PM

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55. "with all due respect"
In response to Reply # 49


          

you are out of your f*cking mind

>Still waiting for the right moment to shit on his fusion-era.
>Too drunk now, let's just say shit was WAY too static. A lot
>of inner movement-sure but when the rhythm section is laying
>down a static groove while the soloists acts free... Not a
>great idea


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

  

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murph71
Member since Sep 15th 2005
23113 posts
Fri Feb-24-12 07:26 PM

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48. "Crazy thing..."
In response to Reply # 0


          



While I LOVE most of Miles' periods (his 50's shit gets all the shine...But it's worth it...Dude was in a zone) and of course the 60's stuff (more early, early 60's and late, late 60's), I'm a STAN for On The Corner...

Man, On The Corner is my go-to album when I'm writing...The grooves bleed into each other...I'm amazed that people hated it when it came out...Now its looked at like some kind of a classic, bold wild "funk" work...

The cream always rises....

GOAT of his era......long live Prince.....God is alive....

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9765 posts
Fri Feb-24-12 08:39 PM

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50. "I don't really like that album..."
In response to Reply # 48


          

Or rather, I think it SOUNDS great and the band is really cool but what are they actually playing? Not much IMO. The funny thing is that Miles did that album purposedly to reach a young black audience complete with cover-art and everything but he must have been out of his mind (and for the record, it would have been the same result with a young white audience so don't call me racist!) because if you compare that album with something like Headhunters (which was massive), it sounds very static, aimless and noodling to my ears. It's like Miles PARTIALLY got what the teenagers dug but at the same time, he was on a combined Stockhausen/Ornette Coleman's "Free jazz" (the album which is flawed and overrated and I LOvE Ornette) thing. I wonder just how many drugs he took! Cool sound though, I give him that...

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
16076 posts
Sat Feb-25-12 02:38 PM

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52. "on the corner is like the album that i still think that if you could sam..."
In response to Reply # 48


          

and re sample and just be creative in that space like back in the day, then somebody like RZA would lose his mind.

on the corner was the Business and I dig that album.

though not as much as 68-71 era Miles, but it is good to me and imo HIS last peak set.

co sign the grooves and textures on that set.

i use to have a 3 Miles davis mix set list On the corner, Sketches of Spain and Miles Smiles.

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Sat Feb-25-12 05:07 PM

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54. "i fuckin love Miles Smiles"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

that shit sounds so hip hop to me for some reason

  

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High Society
Member since Oct 13th 2003
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84. "Miles Smiles is one of my fav in his discog for sure."
In response to Reply # 54


          

Circles???? that piano riff that sounds like a fucking rocket ship taking off and twirling into space? sheesh.

w

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

  

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Crash Bandacoot
Member since May 13th 2003
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56. "absolutely"
In response to Reply # 48


          

it is a masterpiece and the complete on the corner sessions is even better

>
>
>While I LOVE most of Miles' periods (his 50's shit gets all
>the shine...But it's worth it...Dude was in a zone) and of
>course the 60's stuff (more early, early 60's and late, late
>60's), I'm a STAN for On The Corner...
>
>Man, On The Corner is my go-to album when I'm writing...The
>grooves bleed into each other...I'm amazed that people hated
>it when it came out...Now its looked at like some kind of a
>classic, bold wild "funk" work...
>
>The cream always rises....
>
>


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Sat Feb-25-12 02:25 PM

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51. "upp'd"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.

  

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WillSessions
Member since Oct 11th 2007
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Sat Feb-25-12 04:50 PM

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53. "I love this era of Miles..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-25-12 04:51 PM by WillSessions

  

          

I wrote a tribute to Bitches Brew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkVgRCmwYjA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It features Wendell Harrison from Tribe Records.

We have a live recording we did with Amp Fiddler on keys where we played a bunch of stuff from this era..bitches brew, silent way, jack Johnson....and some others like headhunters and weather report. We are planning on dropping it in April.

www.twitter.com/willsessions

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Mon May-21-12 10:00 AM

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57. "Up for Ike^^^"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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mathmagic
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Mon May-21-12 10:51 AM

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58. "i'm pleased that this post was upped."
In response to Reply # 57


          

Jordan!

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Mon May-21-12 11:07 AM

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59. "Oh yeah Jakob you owe us some propper shittage!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
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63. "^^^"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
9765 posts
Fri Feb-01-13 09:49 PM

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64. "It's coming..."
In response to Reply # 63


          

I need an hour to write that post (yes, there are *that* amny problems) and I never have that which is why I refrained from answering the first time; I don't want to write some half-assed shit that people can easily put apart and dismiss. Whatever: his approach was static, non-moving and contradictory (=populist tendencies mixed with avant-garde ideas in a manner I don't find integrated at all).

I also have some issues with your i4dea4 o4f it being jazz4 e4mbr4acing technolo4g4y because I think the way Miles embraced technology (which goes WAY beyond electric instruments) is almost the opposite of a jazz-aesthetic. And the rhythms he used-regardless of if they were rooted in jazz(which I agree with)-the way they were used, I don't associate with jazz at all. Endless repetition in the rhythm section-FOH calling that jazz! 4It was jazz giving up its personality to funk and rock...

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
13535 posts
Sat Feb-02-13 01:18 PM

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65. "RE: It's coming..."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

>And the rhythms he used-regardless of if they were rooted in
>jazz(which I agree with)-the way they were used, I don't
>associate with jazz at all. Endless repetition in the rhythm
>section-FOH calling that jazz! 4It was jazz giving up its
>personality to funk and rock...

I don't think Miles really cared about the jazz label when he made HIS music around 69 - 74.

Neither do I.

Funk can be static, so I'm glad Miles dabbled in some static sounding stuff. 'cause I like funk in various forms, simple or complex. Moving or static.

fine with me.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Feb-05-13 02:40 PM

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66. "Can we just go back and forth?"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

Cause if you sit for an hour that's gonna mean I'mma have to find an hour to reply, and we already see how long it's taking to get this much. I'll start from what you've got here.

>Whatever: his approach was static, non-moving and
>contradictory (=populist tendencies mixed with avant-garde
>ideas in a manner I don't find integrated at all).

You're going to have to qualify it being static. Are you talking about the literal grooves not moving?

>I also have some issues with your i4dea4 o4f it being jazz4
>e4mbr4acing technolo4g4y because I think the way Miles
>embraced technology (which goes WAY beyond electric
>instruments) is almost the opposite of a jazz-aesthetic.

I'll agree it goes way beyond the electric instruments especially when Teo was thrown in the mix. But at some point we're going to have to define 'jazz-aesthetic' which may prove more difficult than not.

>And
>the rhythms he used-regardless of if they were rooted in
>jazz(which I agree with)

Phew some common ground.

>-the way they were used, I don't
>associate with jazz at all. Endless repetition in the rhythm
>section-FOH calling that jazz! 4It was jazz giving up its
>personality to funk and rock...

I mean this really depends on which tracks you pull out though. Sure there's plenty of tracks with the rhythm section staying locked in the pocket, but there are also some changes.

The thing is that you're going to have to qualify both funk and rock.

Funk born out of the electrification of the church combined with the ray charlesesque blending of the church and soul, but held together by jazz chops.

The rock you're referring to isn't straight classic rock or rock n roll but the progressive side which in essence was rock embracing the jazz aesthetic.

In both cases if you did unplugged acoustic sessions of the material what you'd get would sound a lot like jazz. My contention is that Miles flipped that on its head and said alright let's approach this from the jazz side using those methodologies.

It seems your biggest objection is the rhythm section. You say the static groove isn't jazz. But what is the walking bassline but static?

I'll stop there for now.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Mon Feb-11-13 03:45 AM

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72. "RE: Can we just go back and forth?"
In response to Reply # 66


          


>You're going to have to qualify it being static. Are you
>talking about the literal grooves not moving?

I mean a lots of things (it's worth pointing out though that many of his electric records are quite difficult in approach). I think the songs frequently lack a beginning, middle and end, I think the relative emphasis on collective improv. means that the textural and stylistic differences that occur in a linear fashion thorughout a performance in more conventional jazz is missing. Of course, there are ways to overcome this in collective settings as evidenced by the music Sun Ra and Cecil Taylor made in the late 60's but their performances had movements and a clear sense of direction (Sun Ra by actually directing the improvs through different textural combinations, Cecil by simply never shutting up and thus just controlling the performance of the band throughoutly) regardless of how free they might have been.
Instead, the music to *me* lack the narrative feel and *feels* more like the jamming of rock-bands like Cream or Grateful Dead than great jazz. However, even Cream and GD made it work better in spite of inferior musicianship due to more ''moving'' rhythm-sections. And sorry for making it hierarchal but I have to offer some examples where it works for me.

And I feel that Miles gradually downplayed his own soloing and made his trumpet more of a purely rhythmical/textural component which doesn't *have* to be a bad thing but in this case was since Miles was a great soloist. This isn't true of all his electric material though; ''Miles runs the voodoo down'' has some of the hottest *blues*-playing of his career and he smokes on the Jack Johnson-album even if I find the backdrop on that record more along the lines of rock (=laying down a steady groove for the genius soloist rather than dealing with a communal give-and-take).



>I'll agree it goes way beyond the electric instruments
>especially when Teo was thrown in the mix. But at some point
>we're going to have to define 'jazz-aesthetic' which may prove
>more difficult than not.

Not too difficult. As much of a genre-fascist as I may seem, I don't really view it like that. To me, it's just that did Miles approach have many precedents in the music classified as jazz? No. Did it have many followers? Not really-later fusion took a very different approach even if it was obviously inspired by Miles.

At the same time however, I think there are lots of relative precedents in rock and lots of acts who worked like that afterwards as well. Thus, it's outside of the jazz-aesthetic; it's not deeper than that to me.


>The rock you're referring to isn't straight classic rock or
>rock n roll but the progressive side which in essence was rock
>embracing the jazz aesthetic.

Of course but would you also agree that it doesn't really sound like jazz but more as its own take on jazz-like ideas? IMO, miles approach sounded like it was inspired more by jammy acid-rock than jazz. None of this has anything to do with the quality though; however, I find the somewhat big gulf between the often fancy and sophisticated solos and the basic rhythm-section work, a problem that does not occur with a band like, say, Can, where everyone was working with similar aesthetics in mind and where virtuosity was downplayed.


>
>In both cases if you did unplugged acoustic sessions of the
>material what you'd get would sound a lot like jazz.

Not really, more like a fusion. And on the opposite, ''Filles...'' was made with electric instruments and still sounds like jazz to me.

Whatever, my feelings on this are irrelevant, I originally just wanted to write why *I* don't like the music too much as opposed to proving that it is not jazz or why it's static objectively.

>contention is that Miles flipped that on its head and said
>alright let's approach this from the jazz side using those
>methodologies.

I hear someone trying to do jammy rock/funk with jazz-chops with everything that implies.
>
>It seems your biggest objection is the rhythm section. You
>say the static groove isn't jazz. But what is the walking
>bassline but static?


The walking bassline is static rhythmically if it just keeps walking quarter/eigth/whatever notes, yes. However, if it is walking through chord-changes-whether composed or made up on the spot, implied or blatant-it is obviously not harmonically static and the very fact that the notes keep on changing means that it's not melodically static either.

I feel that Miles approach was almost purely vertical and rhythmic. Combine this with a relative lack of dynamci changes and mammoth song-lengths and then the often jarring, pantonal combination of a bassist playing straight pentatonic riffs while the soloists and keyboardists went in-and-out of various keys, used unusual scales etc.-Everything combined makes the music not work for me...

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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62. "RE: Miles Davis 1968-1974 (Age 42-46)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Austin
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Sun Feb-10-13 10:39 AM

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67. "RE: Have you gotten this yet, man?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.allmusic.com/album/live-in-europe-1969-the-bootleg-series-vol-2-mw0002439924

It's pretty snazzy.

~Austin

Donate:
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http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Sun Feb-10-13 11:09 AM

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68. "Wow!!"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

That sounds awesome. I feel like at least one of those dates made its way to VHS bootlegs back in the day. Going to need to get this.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Austin
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Sun Feb-10-13 11:13 AM

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69. "RE: I haven't even looked at the DVD yet, but it's a full set."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

The three audio discs are excellent. Weird to hear super trippy, angry Jack DeJohnette on drums versions of 'Milestones.'

Good stuff, I'd say.

~Austin

Donate:
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Latest 'choon: "roads"
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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 05:53 PM

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73. "This post needs videos"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 05:53 PM

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74. ""Ife" (1973)"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PruMPJTsqvo

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Jan-14-16 12:55 AM

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87. "damn, forgot this shit had links"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 05:55 PM

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75. ""Turnaroundphrase" (1973)"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Op0sFwKRxY

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 05:56 PM

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76. ""Tanglewood" (1971)"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvYfasSByo

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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astralblak
Member since Apr 05th 2007
20029 posts
Thu Jan-14-16 12:56 AM

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88. "vid's been blocked"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

.

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 06:11 PM

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77. ""Yesternow" (1971)"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DegjHsdWPQM

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 06:29 PM

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78. ""What I Say" (1971)"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Tue Mar-05-13 06:31 PM

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79. ""Directions / Bitches Brew" (1969)"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWEZgiXNhOA

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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JayEmm
Member since Feb 06th 2004
3198 posts
Wed Mar-06-13 12:49 PM

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81. "Copenhagen '69 - full set"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

http://youtu.be/ANpXyYIJwQw

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Jan-13-16 04:03 PM

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82. "Maybe Esperanza..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Thing that's really caught me about this is that, not many
>have picked it up. I mean people have taken pieces, but
>except for little niches of artists no progression has been
>made from this (<<<< attack me here).

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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High Society
Member since Oct 13th 2003
7358 posts
Wed Jan-13-16 08:24 PM

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83. "THIS is MY fav period."
In response to Reply # 0


          

it's influenced lots of things I know listen to that's for sure.

I need to know and it may be listed in the stuff you posted...

is there a live concert recording of their opening for Grateful Dead?
The famous one where they basically building Bitches Brew on the fly live?

I need that in my life... I haven't done enough investigating to know
if it got a proper release... maybe someone can tell me.

Thanks in advance if anyone knows.

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42239 posts
Wed Jan-13-16 10:17 PM

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86. "RWQ"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          



█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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High Society
Member since Oct 13th 2003
7358 posts
Wed Jan-13-16 08:34 PM

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85. "On the Corner is really one of the first hiphop records."
In response to Reply # 0


          

the rhythms, the drums... it's got early groundbreaking influence into genres like drum n bass and the LA beat scene.

just a phenomenal record. and he let his band jam.
he took a back seat on that album.

Like someone said above, I appreciate that he could let others rock,
let them groove and he express himself when he felt the need to.

More accenting from Miles on that record than front and center.

-----
Cameo
Soundshape Records

  

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