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Reflect
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Mon Jan-30-12 03:09 PM

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"A History of Pitchfork"


          

Cross-posted from GD board.

http://nplusonemag.com/54

EXCERPTS:

"Early Pitchfork’s narrow focus on indie rock wasn’t a conscious decision—indie
rock just happened to be the kind of music that most of Ryan Schreiber’s friends
liked. Even as the site began poking around in other genres, it was not hard to
figure out where the writers had come from. Reading through the archive,
watching Pitchfork begin to discover thoughtful, politically liberal rap groups
like A Tribe Called Quest and Jurassic 5, I felt a shock of white suburban
recognition. In 1998, Lang Whitaker gave a 7.1 to the Black Eyed Peas,
speculating that with “a line-up that looks straight out of a Benetton ad,”
maybe the group could “assume their mantle as hip-hop’s street saviors.” One
year later, in a review of The Roots’ Things Fall Apart, Samir Khan
congratulated the group on featuring “an intelligent rapper.” Other genres were
treated with the same endearing bewilderment. Schreiber, in particular, fell
head over heels in love with 1960s jazz. On Thelonious Monk: “The man could play
a piano like it was a goddamn video game.” And on John Coltrane, recorded live
at the Village Vanguard: “‘Trane takes it to heaven and back with some style,
man. Some richness, daddy. It’s a sad thing his life was cut short by them jaws
o’ death.” It’s easy to complain about this kind of thing, but it isn’t racist.
It isn’t even insensitive, really. It’s just oblivious. What could be less
anxious, less self-conscious, than a white 21-year-old writing about John
Coltrane in the voice of an old black man? It must have been nice to write on
the internet and feel that the only people paying attention were your friends.
This initial three-year period was Pitchfork’s Edenic phase, and it came to an
end in June 1999, when Shawn Fanning, a student at Northeastern University,
launched Napster.

Did these bands suck? Was there something that Pitchfork had missed? Although
Broken Social Scene, Arcade Fire, Sufjan Stevens, M.I.A., and Animal Collective
all produced sophisticated, intelligent music, it’s also true that they focused
their sophistication and intelligence on those areas where the stakes were
lowest. Instead of striking out in pursuit of new musical forms, they tweaked or
remixed the sounds of earlier music, secure in the knowledge that pedantic blog
writers would magnify these changes and make them seem daring. Instead of
producing music that challenged and responded to that of other bands, they
complimented one another in interviews, each group “doing its own thing” and
appreciating the efforts of others. So long as they practiced effective
management of the hype cycle, they were given a free pass by their listeners to
lionize childhood, imitate their predecessors, and respond to the Iraq war with
dancing. The general mood was a mostly benign form of cultural decadence. It
would be nice to say that Pitchfork missed something important, that some
undiscovered radical alternative was out there waiting to be found. But
Pitchfork’s writers are nothing if not diligent. They had it pretty much
covered.

That project—an ever evolving, uncontroversial portrait of contemporary tastes
in popular music—addressed one problem surrounding music in the file-sharing era
to the exclusion of all others. Faced with readers who wanted to know how to be
fans in the internet age, Pitchfork’s writers became the greatest, most pedantic
fans of all, reconfiguring criticism as an exercise in perfect cultural
consumption. Pitchfork’s endless “Best Of” lists should not be read as acts of
criticism, but as fantasy versions of the Billboard sales charts. Over the
years, these lists have (ominously) expanded, from fifty songs to 100 or 200,
and in 2008 the site published a book called The Pitchfork 500: Our Guide to the
Greatest Songs from Punk to the Present. Similarly, Pitchfork’s obsession with
identifying bands’ influences seems historical, but isn’t. When a pop critic
talks about influences, he’s almost never talking about the historical
development of musical forms. Instead, he’s talking about his record collection,
his CD-filled binders, his external hard drive—he is congratulating himself,
like James Murphy in “Losing My Edge,” on being a good fan. While Pitchfork may
be invaluable as an archive, it is worse than useless as a forum for insight and
argument.

Indie’s self-deception has had consequences for fans as well. One kind of fan,
at least originally, was the lower-middle-class white person, frequently a
college dropout, who got by on bartending or other menial work and tried to save
enough money to move out of his parents’ house. This kind of person got involved
in indie rock to acquire cultural capital that he’d otherwise lack. A pretty
good example of this kind of indie rock fan is Ryan Schreiber. In the last
decade, however, indie rock has classed up, steadily abandoning these
lower-class fans (along with the midsized cities they live in) for the young,
college-educated white people who now populate America’s major cities and media
centers. For these people, indie rock has offered a way to ignore the fact that
part of what makes your dead-end internship or bartending job tolerable is the
fact that you can leave and go to law school whenever you like. A pretty good
example of this kind of indie rock fan is me. In the two years since I graduated
from college, I’ve had a pretty good time being “broke” in New York and drinking
“cheap” beer with my friends. But sometimes I remind myself that the beer I’m
drinking is not actually cheap, and that furthermore I am not actually broke: if
I married someone who made the same salary I make, our household income would be
slightly above the national median, which is also true of almost every person I
spend my free time with.

The truth is that I inherited expensive tastes and moved to an expensive city,
and sometimes I get cranky about not being able to buy what I want. But when I
don’t feel like reminding myself of these things, I can listen to indie music.
In Sufjan Stevens, indie adopted precious, pastoral nationalism at the Bush
Administration’s exact midpoint. In M.I.A., indie rock celebrated a musician
whose greatest accomplishment has been to turn the world’s various catastrophes
into remixed pop songs. This is a kind of music, in other words, that’s very
good at avoiding uncomfortable conversations. Pitchfork has imitated, inspired,
and encouraged indie rock in this respect. It has incorporated a perfect
awareness of cultural capital into its basic architecture. A Pitchfork review
may ignore history, aesthetics, or the basic technical aspects of tonal music,
but it will almost never fail to include a detailed taxonomy of the current hype
cycle and media environment. This is a small, petty way of thinking about a
large art, and as indie bands have both absorbed and refined the culture’s
obsession with who is over- and underhyped, their musical ambitions have been
winnowed down to almost nothing at all."

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
are there politically conservative rap groups?
Jan 30th 2012
1
*doesn't touch this*...aww fuck it - arguably most are conservative
Jan 30th 2012
4
      RE: *doesn't touch this*...aww fuck it - arguably most are conservative
Jan 30th 2012
13
      i'm not gonna touch this either...aww fuck it again
Jan 30th 2012
18
      thank you based K_Orr
Jan 30th 2012
23
      dude
Jan 31st 2012
24
           RE: dude
Feb 01st 2012
34
      RE: *doesn't touch this*...aww fuck it - arguably most are conservative
Jan 31st 2012
25
      WAIT WHAT? FOH k_orr
Jan 31st 2012
26
           that's not the way I meant it
Jan 31st 2012
27
                :D
Jan 31st 2012
28
LMAO @ the image header and caption
Jan 30th 2012
2
Peace, Connecticut (c) Raekwon knew what he was doing! n/m
Jan 30th 2012
3
Poor kid in the middle looks like he's trying to figure it out
Jan 30th 2012
22
very interesting (excerpt), but
Jan 30th 2012
5
Indie/Hipster's culture's obsession with itself continues
Jan 30th 2012
6
If you actually read that article
Jan 30th 2012
7
      I read it a while back
Jan 30th 2012
14
Not sure why the ''we need new musical forms'' annoys me........
Jan 30th 2012
8
LMAO
Jan 30th 2012
9
I think this is really the key part
Jan 30th 2012
10
Ohhhhhh I CAN'T WAIT... YALL GON HATE YALL GON HATE!!!
Jan 30th 2012
12
I don't think anything has ever been truly original...
Jan 30th 2012
11
if they knew what they wanted, they might attempt to make it
Jan 30th 2012
15
      I'm not talking about ultra-specific shit...
Jan 30th 2012
17
           RE: I'm not talking about ultra-specific shit...
Jan 30th 2012
19
                That's not what I meant by mentioning Hip-Hop...
Jan 30th 2012
20
                You mentioned BSS.....
Feb 01st 2012
31
                     I don't struggle to enjoy things because they have a lineage, though
Feb 01st 2012
32
                          But the point of the critique is.....
Feb 01st 2012
33
Delete
Jan 30th 2012
I felt the same way
Jan 30th 2012
16
RE: Good read.
Jan 30th 2012
21
Interesting read
Jan 31st 2012
29
Yo. I used to really like n +1. Been a while...thanks.
Feb 01st 2012
30
RE: A final thought on this. . .
Feb 04th 2012
35
The phenomenon you describe is nothing new though...
Feb 05th 2012
36
      RE: It just seems magnified on the internet though.
Feb 05th 2012
38
           Their growing neglect of independent hip-hop in favor of Atlanta
Feb 05th 2012
39
                RE: They're very age discriminate in what they cover as well.
Feb 05th 2012
40
                I don't think it's ageism per say.
Feb 05th 2012
41
                It's this kind of inconsistency that
Feb 05th 2012
42
Pitchfork Won
Feb 05th 2012
37
one of their founder's great reviews recreated below
Jul 19th 2012
43

hardware
Member since May 22nd 2007
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Mon Jan-30-12 03:12 PM

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1. "are there politically conservative rap groups?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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k_orr
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Mon Jan-30-12 03:28 PM

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4. "*doesn't touch this*...aww fuck it - arguably most are conservative"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Both in lyrical form as well as in their celebrity life (aside from endorsing black candidates)

A careful lyrical analysis of popular rappers discography would show a lot of agreement on issues Socially, Economically, Foreign and Domestic policy....

Most rappers
- anti-choice
- anti-gay
- anti-tax/pro-business
- pro gun
- believe in the free market
- believe in hard work
- wanted to bomb various middle eastern countries based on wars and acts of terror.

You could make a real good case for the true platform of hip hop is primarily right wing, with the only exceptions being issues of race.

Ahh, there's the rub.

Most conservative issues that have nothing to do with race are colored with race. And if you adopt those conservative polices there are often hidden and not-so-hidden racial ramifications.

But i'm not going to turn this into a Chuck D was not a man for the revolution, cause that would make y'all cry.

one
k. orr

  

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Onederlust
Member since Aug 29th 2003
352 posts
Mon Jan-30-12 05:48 PM

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13. "RE: *doesn't touch this*...aww fuck it - arguably most are conservative"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I've considered this at length in the past.

It certainly explains the stymied growth of the genre.

  

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k_orr
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Mon Jan-30-12 06:22 PM

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18. "i'm not gonna touch this either...aww fuck it again"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

>I've considered this at length in the past.
>
>It certainly explains the stymied growth of the genre.

Hip Hop, if nothing at all, has grown by leaps and and bounds over the past 30 years.

A lot of stuff that we would have considered hip hop in 1992, in 2012 is its own separate sub-genre that people who like rap music don't listen to. Think about dj premier in deep concentration and all the various derivatives and close cousins in the amorphous genre of electronica.

Every region of the US has had it's time on top, with the Midwest and Miami holding the crown currently.

Sonically, hip hop today can go Oontz Oontz to the "demonic trap" sounds of Lex Luger.

Topically? Christ, the top artists today are pretty much yammering on about emotional issues in a genre where wearing your heart on your sleeve is A SIGN OF WEAKNESS.

And if you want something besides the typical bragging raps and party songs, you can find word fetishists, purists, as well as real gangsters with the click of a mouse.

If anything, hip hop IS TOO DIVERSE, has evolved too much and too fast, grown way out of its britches.

one
k. orr

  

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astralblak
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Mon Jan-30-12 11:36 PM

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23. "thank you based K_Orr"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

i once had this conversation with an activist buddy of mine. We talked about one of the most puzzling forms of this rap-right-wing-isms was when "conscious" heads talked about honoring/respecting woman and the songs end up relegating woman to domesticated child-rearers.

  

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k_orr
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24. "dude"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>i once had this conversation with an activist buddy of mine.
>We talked about one of the most puzzling forms of this
>rap-right-wing-isms was when "conscious" heads talked about
>honoring/respecting woman and the songs end up relegating
>woman to domesticated child-rearers.

I had this exact convo with a dude about Wise Intelligent's 3 Wives and how unprogressive and lt weight misogynistic it was.

Cee Lo's advice on being chaste by wearing your clothes in a certain way...

Method Man, 3/4's of cloth never showing your stuff off (paraphrasing)

I could go on, but I won't.

I'm kinda glad republicans and black conservatives aren't smart enough to figure this shit out.

one
k. orr

  

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lakai336
Member since Aug 17th 2009
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Wed Feb-01-12 10:43 AM

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34. "RE: dude"
In response to Reply # 24


          

>I'm kinda glad republicans and black conservatives aren't
>smart enough to figure this shit out.
>
>one
>k. orr
>

LMAO. True, that would be a strange world.

  

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Ron
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Tue Jan-31-12 10:15 AM

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25. "RE: *doesn't touch this*...aww fuck it - arguably most are conservative"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Great post

  

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imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
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Tue Jan-31-12 10:50 AM

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26. "WAIT WHAT? FOH k_orr"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>- believe in hard work

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
http://concretesoundsystem.com
Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/

"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

  

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k_orr
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27. "that's not the way I meant it"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

wrote it too quickly

But essentially all you need to do to make it is work hard.
Like I said in a different post, a lot of that trap music is really camouflaged prosperity gospel.

"I'm up early, cause ain't enough light in the day time"
"when you see us coming down in them benz's and porsche's, don't just admire ours, get your own"

There's so much of that protestant work ethic/pull yourself up by your own boot straps throughout hip hop, you'd think Horatio Alger was ghost writing.

It's very rare that you come across a Boots or DP's style analysis of things.

one
k. orr

  

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astralblak
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28. ":D"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

.

  

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imcvspl
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2. "LMAO @ the image header and caption"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://nplusonemag.com/images/txp/image.php?width=625&quality=95&image=http://nplusonemag.com/images/txp/692.jpg

"Raekwon fans at the Pitchfork Music Festival, 2010. Via kate.gardiner."

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
http://concretesoundsystem.com
Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/

"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

  

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Reflect
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3. "Peace, Connecticut (c) Raekwon knew what he was doing! n/m"
In response to Reply # 2


          

  

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simpsycho
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22. "Poor kid in the middle looks like he's trying to figure it out"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

That confused look on his face, two fingers halfway up in the air.

  

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Nodima
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5. "very interesting (excerpt), but"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jan-30-12 03:40 PM by Nodima

  

          


I like all those bands. A lot. Many of them were given to me by friends and message boards, though I suppose they were secondhand via Pitchfork as the conversation was always steered towards their lists and reviews. But the values of this writer - maybe in the full article he explains further - seem crossed, as he mentions listening to the music Pitchfork champions yet he seems to be criticizing Pitchfork for not championing more socially aware music. It read like a guy with good insight who didn't have the capital or time to follow up on them himself.

Further, the things that he longs for in reviews have often bored me about reviews, or at least weren't what inspired me to write them. It can be neat to learn about how something was made or the effort that went into it, the ways it builds on things that came before it. But more important to me, honestly, has always just been base-line enjoyment, and how a given release fits into both its artist's catalog and the sounds of the time. If you want to categorize those ideas as "hype", go ahead I suppose. That term doesn't carry the bile for me it does for others. Some of the things he mentions desiring in criticism, to my mind, are more at home in a column, interview, profile or something more in-depth than a piece who's only real purpose is to explain why you may or may not like to hear something.

Or, more and more these days, confirm why or why not you shoud feel the way you already do about that album leak you downloaded three weeks ago, listened to twice and forgot about.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

  

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mrshow
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6. "Indie/Hipster's culture's obsession with itself continues"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Yawn

  

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dalecooper
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7. "If you actually read that article "
In response to Reply # 6
Mon Jan-30-12 04:29 PM by dalecooper

  

          

it's actually a pretty fascinating one. And the ultimate conclusion is highly critical of both indie rock culture and Pitchfork, even though the perspective is a relatively insider one (i.e. white, young fan of indie music). I mean, look at this bit: "This is a kind of music, in other words, that’s very good at avoiding uncomfortable conversations. Pitchfork has imitated, inspired, and encouraged indie rock in this respect. It has incorporated a perfect awareness of cultural capital into its basic architecture. A Pitchfork review may ignore history, aesthetics, or the basic technical aspects of tonal music, but it will almost never fail to include a detailed taxonomy of the current hype cycle and media environment. This is a small, petty way of thinking about a large art, and as indie bands have both absorbed and refined the culture’s obsession with who is over- and underhyped, their musical ambitions have been winnowed down to almost nothing at all."

And the article ends with this: "Most of all, though, we need new musical forms. We need a form that doesn’t think of itself as a collection of influences. We need musicians who know that music can take inspiration not only from other music but from the whole experience of life. Pitchfork and indie rock are currently run by people who behave as though the endless effort to perfect the habits of cultural consumption is the whole experience of life. We should leave these things behind, and instead pursue and invent a musical culture more worth our time."

It was a long article but I kind of want to read that again later to think over some of the points that are being made. I feel like there are some unfair generalizations and unexamined assumptions that led it to where it ended up, but on the whole, there was much more being said here than I expected.

--

  

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mrshow
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14. "I read it a while back"
In response to Reply # 7


          

It's naval gazing at its worst.

  

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Ishwip
Member since Jun 10th 2005
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Mon Jan-30-12 04:42 PM

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8. "Not sure why the ''we need new musical forms'' annoys me........"
In response to Reply # 0


          

"Most of all, though, we need new musical forms. We need a form that doesn’t think of itself as a collection of influences. We need musicians who know that music can take inspiration not only from other music but from the whole experience of life. Pitchfork and indie rock are currently run by people who behave as though the endless effort to perfect the habits of cultural consumption is the whole experience of life. We should leave these things behind, and instead pursue and invent a musical culture more worth our time."



I mean, sure I feel like initially anyone would agree with the sentiment ("new and fresh! original!"), but the more I think about it I wonder if it's actually possible? A new musical form that is distinct enough so that everyone agrees "yeah, this is new" and not a branch off something else.






lol......maybe I'm mad since a lot of what I listen to tends to be a "collection of influences"...

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

  

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imcvspl
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9. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Once I finish the 50 remaining pages of this book, you'll hate me.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
http://concretesoundsystem.com
Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/

"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

  

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dalecooper
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10. "I think this is really the key part"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

"We need a form that doesn’t think of itself as a collection of influences."

He's basically complaining about the way pop music has started recycling itself so aggressively and making it out to be a virtue. List-making, retro trends, blatant jacking and homaging, mash-ups, etc. (most of those are explicitly mentioned throughout the article and set the tone for the conclusion). It's pretty clear that no new genre of music ever has been free of influences - the very idea is, to anyone who plays music or has intimate knowledge of how music gets made, ridiculous.

--

  

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imcvspl
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12. "Ohhhhhh I CAN'T WAIT... YALL GON HATE YALL GON HATE!!!"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
http://concretesoundsystem.com
Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/

"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

  

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Jakob Hellberg
Member since Apr 18th 2005
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Mon Jan-30-12 04:59 PM

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11. "I don't think anything has ever been truly original..."
In response to Reply # 8
Mon Jan-30-12 05:01 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

Rather, I think people are looking for something they want and when it arrives, it's experienced as original¤; it fills a void.

¤However, the problem with a lot of the people looking for something original is that they have no idea what they want beyond empty buzzwords like ''challenging'', ''new'', ''fresh'', ''different'' 4or of course ''original''. Theyr'e like stimulation-4junkies on some "Here we are now, entertain us!"-shit. With that attitude, I'll doubt they'll ever experience any music as original again because the void they want to have filled is so vague and undefined that there's nothing that can fill it.

Everyone complain about what's wrong about modern music but what do they actually want instead beyond the empty buzzwords?

  

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Nodima
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15. "if they knew what they wanted, they might attempt to make it"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Mon Jan-30-12 06:21 PM

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17. "I'm not talking about ultra-specific shit..."
In response to Reply # 15


          

...like "I want music written in the phrygian mode with a BPM of 107 performed on tubas".

Look at punk for example:I don't know how many interviews I've read from people in that era who said that they were fed up by the slick, overblown, overproduced stadium-vibe of contemporary rock. Also, in the UK, the movement was actually preceded by pub-rock which set the stage.

Basically, the bands and audience was moving towards a cxommon goal that may seem vague but I don't think so; it gives a pretty good idea of what type of music they wanted to hear that goes FAR beyond "challenging" or "¤original" or "new" in specific terms. You can look at techno/¤house, drum&bass, extreme metal and a shitload of things (¤not necessarily Hip-Hop though) where the audiences and artists had fairly specific ideas of what they wanted.

Also, has anyone actually experienced music as "original" when they were sitting back waiting to be blown away? Isn't it more a case of searching for things in a certain genre and then finding that thing that fill the void and experiencing it as original because of that?

  

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Nodima
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19. "RE: I'm not talking about ultra-specific shit..."
In response to Reply # 17
Mon Jan-30-12 06:42 PM by Nodima

  

          

but then isn't that what cloud rap, trap rap/drill music (some Chicago shit, sounds very very similar to trap though), the Low End Theory artists and so on are experiencing? you say not necessarily hip-hop; what about those shifts isn't valuable? or in lyrical terms, the Kanyes and CuDis and Drakes of the world and all the smalltimers attempting to follow in their mold, isn't that an audience reacting to desires? Or in electronic circles, footwork and the American dubstep revolution/bastardization? Those scenes feel very new and vibrant to me regardless of my opinion of them on my own terms of enjoyment. Is my ear not close enough to the ground to appreciate how old those sounds are, and if so, is one's opinion of what's exciting and culturally viable judged based on how soon they knew about something?


This was definitely the concept that bugged me most about the article, Broken Social Scene seems safe now but I promise it felt really exciting then, as did other "hype" artists like Destroyer and New Pornographers and Liars and LCD Soundsystem.


I guess I've just always found the idea of criticizing audiences, or criticism itself, as void of new ideas or voices to be pretty tired. Music feels very different to me than it did in 2005 than it did in 2000 than it did in 1995.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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20. "That's not what I meant by mentioning Hip-Hop..."
In response to Reply # 19
Mon Jan-30-12 06:47 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

I was talking about the creation of the genre.

And yes, I'm sure that people experience all those styles youre mentioning as ''original'' exactly for the reason I mentioned. At the same time, you have the stimulation-junkies who go "No, nothing original about that, it's just X mixed with Y" simply because they have no idea of what they want. Perhaps they are too old and jaded (=¤no void left to fill beyond this vague feeling they can't explain) so that it's just impossible for ANYTHING to come across as original.

I don't really know how to explain this well; I was thinking about it all night yesterday but it's hard to put in words...

  

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denny
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31. "You mentioned BSS....."
In response to Reply # 19
Wed Feb-01-12 04:23 AM by denny

          

and I guess that's the perfect example of what he's 'possibly' talking about in my mind. Though I do agree with the post we're responding to here. 'Musical forms'? I don't even know what that means.

But when I first heard BSS there was absolutely nothing exciting about it to me. It literally sounded like 1 part Dinosaur Jr, 1 part Pavement mixed together. It was just too easy to see the influences and too simplified a formula. IMO, Animal Collective are much harder to define and much more exciting to me as a listener. To make a list of their influences....it becomes alot more varied in time, genres, scenes. Alot harder to pin down and the influences are more disparate.

Those are two 'pitchfork' type groups for which one is guilty of the critique in the article, and the other is not imo.

  

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Nodima
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32. "I don't struggle to enjoy things because they have a lineage, though"
In response to Reply # 31
Wed Feb-01-12 04:30 AM by Nodima

  

          

Dinosaur Jr. + Pavement? Sign me up, I love those bands! It's especially true with rap; does it bother me that Alley Boy is so obviously a hybrid of Gucci Mane, Future and Pill? No, and I don't even really enjoy most of his music! But I find him intriguing and make sure to follow his moves even though he's not doing anything I haven't heard before.


When BSS and Animal Collective were both emerging, they triggered different buttons in equal ways. I listened to BSS in public, when I wanted to relax, when I wanted to sing/hum along, when I wanted to bob my head. I listened to Animal Collective when I wanted to be weirded out and challenged and hear a bunch of things I thought were familiar but really weren't. Animal Collective won out in the end, but they're also weirder people who didn't have the sorts of desires the BSS folks did. They were never a real band (though they played some killer shows for a while), they were a studio creation.


Like I said - and it's probably hypocritical because I've probably written from this perspective many times, mainly because it's easier than doing something else - I just don't enjoy when someone's main criticism of something is it's "safeness". I mean there can be music that's just too damn safe, but I would say that's a Nickleback or a Puddle of Mudd or a Chris Brown album cut (I'll give credit to his singles, usually...). Not a band like BSS who're clearly pushing themselves and doing something identifiable within a "safe" format.



~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

  

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denny
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33. "But the point of the critique is....."
In response to Reply # 32
Wed Feb-01-12 05:14 AM by denny

          

that lineage shouldn't be so easy to sum up. And those two groups (dino and pavement) aren't even that far removed from each other.....their respective primes were only about 5 years apart....similar scenes....mutual fans....

Again, when I heard BSS I kinda thought to myself 'what's the point?'. They weren't bringing anything new to the table. Too derivative. And I think that's what the author is saying. But I don't think the critique applies to AC.

Even Pavement and Dino themselves had some pretty disparate influences. That's what makes them interesting. I guess I just thought BSS were boring and I'm trying to rationalize it. Cause, technically, I 'should' like them but it just doesn't do anything for me.

And I kinda like Chris Brown's hits. They remind me of being on ecstacy.

  

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mrshow
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"Delete"
Mon Jan-30-12 06:08 PM by mrshow

          

Delete

  

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mrshow
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16. "I felt the same way"
In response to Reply # 8


          

It's a totally empty statement. It would be like the key speaker at the UN conference on global conflict getting up to the podium and saying "People should be nice to each other."

  

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Austin
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21. "RE: Good read."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I didn't care for how he used the history (and subsequent critique) of Pitchfork as a jumping off point to project his own opinions and disappointments with the direction of pop music.

I wish he would've dug further into the site's archive manipulating.

~Austin

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lakai336
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Tue Jan-31-12 11:12 PM

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29. "Interesting read"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jan-31-12 11:13 PM by lakai336

          

I liked the way they put things, with the whole cultural capital stuff. It certainly does feel that way with Pitchfork. It's probably the most frustrating aspect of modern indie music and new hip-hop. Pitchfork really is unquestionably the leader of the pack. Even if you don't like Pitchfork and try and go elsewhere for information, 95% of the blogs out there follow their lead and tend to review/talk about the same stuff.

That's my beef with it. The loss of more idiosyncratic tastes (although I'm too young to know if the Rolling Stone era was just as group thinkish).

It's almost like if music isn't approved by pitchfork, it's not considered worthy to the indie rock set. On the flip side, if something is, people try harder to get into it and like it than they would have otherwise.

At the end of the day though, I do respect the way they built the company and found that side of things interesting. Whether or not I agree with their reviews and ways of doing things/viewing music, Schreiber and co deserve credit for being a bunch of music nerds who put in work and made their dreams reality.

  

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FireBrand
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30. "Yo. I used to really like n +1. Been a while...thanks."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The last time I read it was during the beginning of the "occupy" movement.

Something turned me off about it and I hadn't been back.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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Austin
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35. "RE: A final thought on this. . ."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-04-12 11:59 PM by Austin

  

          

. . .(I hope I can articulate what I'm thinking properly). . .

I've thought for a while that the way places like Pitchfork (and maybe even the internet culture at large) really talk about new "fringe" music "poignantly" (or try to, anyway) is because they have romanticized the past so much. I mean, it's been documented that bands like the New York Dolls, the Stooges, the Ramones and Nick Drake sold poorly in their day and enough time has passed now to where most music fans consider these people musical gods, or at least highly revere them. Like all rock fans, those kids probably heard those records and sat around befuddled as to why they weren't super big hits.

So, then you get kids with internet connections and the ability to spread the word about bands that they feel are destined for a similar fate. And, it sort of worked.

I mean, honestly, do you honestly think there's not people at Pitchfork headquarters that feel like Arcade Fire's album of the year grammy belongs partly to them?

And, that's really the problem, I think. It took ten or fifteen years for people to come back around to Pink Moon and really see it for the masterpiece that it is. And yet, here's the people at Pitchfork, trying to spearhead "movements" before they even are really anything at all.

And, the most frustrating part comes in two waves:

1) This has actually worked, in some cases. Arcade Fire is the most prominent example, obviously. But, honestly, would anyone have listened to something like Broken Social Scene otherwise?

2) They actually do align themselves with some decent music, sometimes. And there has become to be such a fucking backlash that, sometimes, you feel genuinely bad for liking a band or an album that they gave a good review to. As just a plain old music nerd, I do admit that, every once in a while, they get it right. But, more often than not, it feels like they're just giving these totally mediocre bands (that, in a way, are essentially copycat acts) good reviews in an attempt to spot the next "hot" thing.

I really do wish that Pitchfork had more humility and integrity. Because, in theory, what they're doing should be a good idea. But, I really do think it's a case of too much clout or power going to someone's head. They don't have "absolute" power, but I think the adage "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" applies with them because they seemingly can't say no to attention seeking and abuses of their positions.

~Austin

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Jakob Hellberg
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Sun Feb-05-12 01:33 AM

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36. "The phenomenon you describe is nothing new though..."
In response to Reply # 35
Sun Feb-05-12 01:35 AM by Jakob Hellberg

          

As I've mentioned before, the british music press with NME and Melody Maker have operated like that for 30 years, calling bands the best band in the world and putting them on the cover when they only had a single out (actually, Suede didn't even have a single out if I remember correctly). While a few lasting bands managed to come out of this, the majority never amounted to shit.

Also, the build them up and knock them down phenomenon with the backlash that follows that people accuse Pitchfork of has always been there too-just ask Darling Buds, Adorable, Back to the planet or Menswear. Sometimes, the backlash started as soon as the debut-album came out...

The sad thing is that it has infected amer4ican music culture via pitchfork and other internet-things; I always viewed USA as relatively free from that due to the "slowness" and mainstream-focus of the american cultural landscape. Bands could tour in the underground and do fanzine-interviews and release several albums before anyone even took notice which was actually good because it separated the wheat from the chaff and also meant that the bands had built-in audiences-no matter how small-by the time the hype came around which meant that they didn't *need* a co-sign from the tastemakers. That is gone now and the hype-nonsense that polluted the british underground scene is now an american thing as well which is sad I guess...

  

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Austin
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38. "RE: It just seems magnified on the internet though."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

And Pitchfork seems very aware of their status.

Like, at least NME in 1984 was just operating on their own egos. They at least wrote about anything and everything, within their space allowances. You can critique the British music papers in a similar way only up to a certain point — sure, they knew what they were trying to do, but they also had a willingness to accept criticism and new things that they hadn't championed.

Pitchfork seems to be very slimey and calculating with every review they post. They post or don't post certain things intentionally. And it's not like they don't have room. They don't accept comments — I don't even think they have a feedback email posted anywhere on the site. And, most importantly, they ignore things that they missed when they were on the cusp.

~Austin

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Nodima
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39. "Their growing neglect of independent hip-hop in favor of Atlanta"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

...and really just Atlanta is the most interesting aspect of their reviews section right now. I understand that their entire staff has changed and post-Breihan they've largely maintained a dedicated staff of hip-hoppers and freelancers like Jeff Weiss but this was the zine that used to champion Def Jux and anticon. as often as possible, and when they started the push for Lil' Wayne as a lyrical Don Quixote (which I did and do buy, but that's another discussion) it felt like they were playing to a certain idea of hip-hop as an indie kid's fetish. They helped make Cam'ron and especially the Clipse cool with chai latte drinking fixie riders and somewhere along the way it feels like their rap coverage became something separate from the rest of the site. They don't break new artists as much as follow the buzz and attempt to put their stamp on it.


It becomes especially transparent when you try to search for assumed parallels to the sort of middle-of-the-road indie acts they cover, workmanlike rappers with strong internet or regional followings. But you won't find any Cormega, Celph Titled, Fashawn, Torae and so on. In the time People Under the Stairs have released five albums P4K's only glanced at two of them, and perhaps the most quintessentially Pitchforky hip-hop group of their era, CunninLynguists, haven't received a single mention on the site since Southernunderground in 2003 (or if they have, it can't be Googled or found through their tagging system)!


I enjoy a lot of the artists they push, but I've always been bothered by their overemphasis on the fantastic elements of hip-hop at the expense of artists I think the majority of their readership would more easily relate to. Especially when they're investing the sort of hyperbole into a review of a pretty typical Future mixtape ("it would only be a small leap of faith to close your eyes and imagine Future as Adele performing "Someone Like You" at the Brit Awards") that makes you feel like they're naked in the street, trying to find the trendiest set of clothes to try on.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

  

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Austin
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40. "RE: They're very age discriminate in what they cover as well."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

Unless somebody is an established icon of "cool" (Pixies, Sonic Youth, etc.), they usually don't get much attention (if any) if they are seemingly older than 27 or so. This probably explains a lot of their ignoring of hip hop.

(and I understand what you mean: they cover the uber-mainstream people in hip hop, while the hip hop equivalents of the things they cover in indie rock get glossed over, if covered at all)

~Austin

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BigReg
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41. "I don't think it's ageism per say."
In response to Reply # 40
Sun Feb-05-12 01:08 PM by BigReg

  

          

Just the fact that for the musical style/trends they are going to follow are inevitably going to be youth based. They gave plenty of attention to LCD Soundsystem and The Hold Steady who's frontmen are well into their middle ages. Although in LCD Soundsystem's James Murphy's case it always felt like they had a bit of 'You're old but you still rock, how do you do it?' when they interview him, lol.

  

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lakai336
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42. "It's this kind of inconsistency that"
In response to Reply # 39


          

makes me question their motives or how they perceive themselves. Like are they trying to seem less elitist by covering hip-hop closer to the mainstream? Are they afraid of looking more like white suburban music nerds so they figure if they cover hood rappers they're closer to understanding traditionally black music and representing it fairly? Do they just honestly like that kind of rap better? Who knows really.

Whatever their motives, it tends to not really look authentic. Breihan especially (as much as I usually agreed and liked his reviews) started going overboard for me when he gave Watch The Throne higher ratings than some independent releases with way more honesty and soul (for lack of a better word) than that self-congratulating (although kind of epic) album. Then again, maybe the majority of people really do like Watch The Throne more than Section 80 and XXX and it's just my personal biases that get in the way of me sharing that opinion.

Since they never justify anything they do, then people have easily developed that whole Black Fetishism thing when criticizing Pitchfork because when you see Flocka and Gucci getting better reviews than more lyrically/intellectually driven artists you can't help but feel that way. I disagree thoroughly with the whole black fetishism thing, but I see why people feel that way, especially the growing population of black people from upper lower class to middle class backgrounds who feel like America has certain stereotypes and expectations about what "acting black" is.

This could be avoided if they covered a larger variety (more consistently) and maybe rated albums based upon what they're trying to do. To some extent, I personally, think they do take some steps to do this. Waka gets a high score because he excels at what he's doing, his shit bangs and his lyrics are entertaining enough as far as street shit goes. Likewise Kendrick Lamar excels at what he does and probably provides the strongest release for the serious, internet era hip-hop listener of that particular year. In that example both got 8.0's. Viewed in the aforementioned context, some might agree.

A lot of the problems has to do with a genre like hip-hop, which contains a lot more specific sub-genres, and people attached to them than indie rock. Indie rock types, especially these days, like a fairly large variety of music and I rarely meet one extremely attach to a subgenre, like someone who loves indie folk and sees that as more valid subgenre then electronic music or something. I'm yet to see soemone who loves Bon Iver get super pissed that Toro Y Moi got a good review or something. With hip-hop listeners, a lot of times things are different, and people cling to subgenres as being more valid than others. Now when you view those same aforementioned ratings (Flocka and Lamar) from the perspective of a hip-hop listener with specific biases and subgenre affiliations, you can see how people get annoyed.

One type of listener would say Flocka shouldn't get the same rating as he doesn't meet said listener's concept of valuable hip-hop music. Likewise one type of listener could say the same of Lamar evaluating him based upon a different set of standards for what makes valuable hip-hop music.

  

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mrshow
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37. "Pitchfork Won"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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howisya
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Thu Jul-19-12 06:41 PM

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43. "one of their founder's great reviews recreated below"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvogqD8NIS8

  

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