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Subject: "Check This Debate Out Btw Stanley Crouch & Mtume Abt Miles Davis" Previous topic | Next topic
vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
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Mon Dec-05-11 12:35 PM

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"Check This Debate Out Btw Stanley Crouch & Mtume Abt Miles Davis"


  

          

http://youtu.be/4OLqid9RABs

http://youtu.be/jAtaxon9t5g


I've never seen Stanley at such a lost for words lol....

grassrootsphilosopher

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I posted this
Dec 05th 2011
1
oh ok...Mtume spoke w/a certain gravitas that Crouch as a cultural
Dec 05th 2011
2
RE: Stanley Crouch is worthless.
Dec 05th 2011
3
RE: Check This Debate Out Btw Stanley Crouch & Mtume Abt Miles Davis
Jul 12th 2012
4
I was never too impressed by Mtume's arguments here
Jul 12th 2012
5
what was crouch's argument again
Jul 12th 2012
6
      I haven't watched it since you first posted it
Jul 12th 2012
7
           any negative critique of electric Miles is great to me.
Jul 12th 2012
8
           yeah, I think Crouch's essay was actually on point
Jul 12th 2012
9
                Davis said that? I will definitely seek out this essay.
Jul 12th 2012
10
                i didn't really get 'on the corner' when i tried to listen
Jul 12th 2012
12
                Man fuck both of yall Crouchety muhfuckaz
Jul 12th 2012
11
                     I don't think *all* of it is cynical.
Jul 12th 2012
13
                          i think *all* of it is.
Jul 12th 2012
15
                          this is the problem
Jul 12th 2012
17
                          it is not Funk or funky whatsoever.
Jul 12th 2012
19
                               Electric Miles wasn't free-jazz...
Jul 12th 2012
24
                                    i know. i added that as a reference point for my taste.
Jul 12th 2012
26
                                         only thing we'll agree on with miles
Jul 12th 2012
28
                                              LOL
Jul 12th 2012
29
                          Some of Miles *own* playing is very inspired...
Jul 12th 2012
20
                          Yo Jakob... FUCK YOUR TONE!!!
Jul 12th 2012
23
                          i like to pretend he stopped recording after Nefertiti.
Jul 12th 2012
25
                          LMAO
Jul 12th 2012
21
                          RE: Jeez, I hope you take your own sig quote to heart here. . .
Jul 12th 2012
30
                               Yeah and...?
Jul 12th 2012
31
                                    RE: Just putting them into context.
Jul 12th 2012
33
                                         Thanks, but I have books for that. nm
Jul 12th 2012
34
                                              RE: Books that you're not reading.
Jul 12th 2012
37
           that fusion era is my favorite of any period of music
Jul 12th 2012
35
Crouch is almost impossible to listen to in this debate
Jul 12th 2012
14
^^ DON'T. DUDE. DON'T.
Jul 12th 2012
16
      PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE HEED THIS ADVICE!!!
Jul 12th 2012
18
      tha fukk outta here...lol.
Jul 12th 2012
22
           that wasn't addressed to you.
Jul 12th 2012
27
                lol.
Jul 12th 2012
32
both sides make valid points
Jul 12th 2012
36

imcvspl
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Mon Dec-05-11 01:27 PM

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1. "I posted this"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

like a year ago but such a good 'debate'
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
http://concretesoundsystem.com
Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/

"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

  

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vee-lover
Member since Jul 30th 2007
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Mon Dec-05-11 03:42 PM

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2. "oh ok...Mtume spoke w/a certain gravitas that Crouch as a cultural"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

critic wasn't able to do

and that made Mtume's argument more convincing


>like a year ago but such a good 'debate'
>________
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>http://concretesoundsystem.com
>Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
>
>"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

grassrootsphilosopher

  

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Austin
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Mon Dec-05-11 10:54 PM

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3. "RE: Stanley Crouch is worthless."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

~Austin

os·ti·na·to
/ˌästəˈnädō/
noun
a continually repeated musical phrase or rhythm

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

https://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2017/332378

  

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imcvspl
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Thu Jul-12-12 11:28 AM

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4. "RE: Check This Debate Out Btw Stanley Crouch & Mtume Abt Miles Davis"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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5. "I was never too impressed by Mtume's arguments here"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

He does speak with a certain authority that comes from having been on the bandstand with Miles, but he doesn't quite address the criticisms... Seems more like he kinda bullied Crouch into keeping quiet (which is okay by me, seeing that Crouch is a bully himself. But still.)

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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imcvspl
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Thu Jul-12-12 11:44 AM

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6. "what was crouch's argument again"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

can't watch right now to refresh my memory. was he calling miles a sellout or saying it wasn't jazz?
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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7. "I haven't watched it since you first posted it"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

but if I recall it was basically the same criticism he's had of Miles Davis over the years, culminating with his essay "On the Corner: The Sellout of Miles Davis"... which is basically that Miles' electric period was garbage and more than that, was a hustle because Miles had no real respect for the music he was making but did it just to sell records to the longhairs.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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SoWhat
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8. "any negative critique of electric Miles is great to me."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

i can't stand that period of his work either. and i too doubt Mile's passion for it. partly b/c he was just so awful at it. i wonder if he knew or cared.

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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9. "yeah, I think Crouch's essay was actually on point"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

apart from him being a real dick about it.

The part of it that summed it up for me was a quote from another jazz musician (can't remember who it was right now) who said he asked Miles for career advice and Miles told him something like "Get yourself a couple of white boys with guitars and turn the amps up."

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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mr_graff
Member since Jan 25th 2006
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Thu Jul-12-12 12:38 PM

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10. "Davis said that? I will definitely seek out this essay. "
In response to Reply # 9


          

I don't like everything from that era but I have a difficult time believing his attitude was that cynical/calculating. I've always thought he was doing the music he wanted to make, and he didn't care who the audience was.

  

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howisya
Member since Nov 09th 2002
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Thu Jul-12-12 12:43 PM

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12. "i didn't really get 'on the corner' when i tried to listen"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

but i figured i just wasn't refined/sophisticated enough

  

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imcvspl
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11. "Man fuck both of yall Crouchety muhfuckaz"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

I can accept not liking the period. It ain't for everybody. But to try and discredit his integrity based off some anecdotal bullshit... FOH!!

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2665607&mesg_id=2665607&page=

That's years!! Not one year, years!! And if you take the time to listen through those years there's a natural progression which is an extension of what he was doing before. And there's growth within those years. You can't seriously be like he was just going through the motions for another shot in the limelight. Dude was following his muse.

AND... SIG!!
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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13. "I don't think *all* of it is cynical."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

Jack Jackson is great, so is Get Up With It, I think... Bitches Brew, of course, is beautiful.

It's On the Corner that always offended me... also Big Fun, I think. And Agharta/Pangaea... I must have listened to those albums every day for a year back in 95/96, trying to force myself to *get* it.

(I should listen to them again now that I'm more mature, though)

On the Corner to me is a really cynical album, though.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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SoWhat
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15. "i think *all* of it is."
In response to Reply # 13
Thu Jul-12-12 01:03 PM by SoWhat

  

          

LOL

including Bitches Brew. which is god-awful, imo.

all of electric Miles that i've heard is butt.

i dunno what the hell homeboy was on to have made that shit. i've been on cocaine and weed and acid and other stuff and i still think that music sounds like ass.

i've heard Sly Stone records and i've heard James Brown and i've heard jazz. when i think of melding those sounds i don't get electric Miles. i get electric Miles when i wonder what it would sound like if a freight train ran over a jazz quartet that was visiting a 7th grade garage Rock band's warm-up session on its 1st day of existence.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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17. "this is the problem"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>i've heard Sly Stone records and i've heard James Brown and
>i've heard jazz. when i think of melding those sounds i don't
>get electric Miles.

The three are not related. It's not funk.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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19. "it is not Funk or funky whatsoever."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

to the point where i don't understand why those artists are mentioned in connection w/Miles's stuff. b/c it sounds _nothing_ like their work.

i know Miles used to do blow w/Sly. but that's about the only connection that can or should be made. it ain't musical. not based on what i've heard.

note: i hate Free Jazz. like, hate it.

fuck you.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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Thu Jul-12-12 01:15 PM

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24. "Electric Miles wasn't free-jazz..."
In response to Reply # 19


          

I LOVE free-jazz and it was an innovation from *within* jazz that pushed certain aspects always there to the extreme, fusion on the other hand was a hybrid genre from a genre in crises trying to remain relevant; it's like comparing death metal to nu-metal...

  

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SoWhat
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26. "i know. i added that as a reference point for my taste."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

it may help contextualize my feelings about electric Miles.

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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28. "only thing we'll agree on with miles"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

is 100% of his marriages ended in divorce!!
lol






wait is that right?

lol
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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29. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

i believe that's true. unless he killed 1 of them.

fuck you.

  

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Jakob Hellberg
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20. "Some of Miles *own* playing is very inspired..."
In response to Reply # 15
Thu Jul-12-12 01:11 PM by Jakob Hellberg

          

The solo on "Miles Runs the Voodoo down" on "Bitches Brw" shows a bluesy and funky side of Miles that you have to go back to "Miles Smiles" and the song "Freedom jazz dance" to hear previously, he had ignored that aspect of his style for several years. The "Jack Johnson"-album has some really inspired playing on Miles behalf as well but not much after that ; he mostly just blurted out a note every once in a while on "On the Corner" and those records.

Basically, I think the more "populist" musical idiom inspired Miles himself in terms of the solos etc. for a while but I don't think he had much of a vision for the music as a whole and I don't think he truly understood rock or funk either, several of his statements in his own book makes that perfectly clear... That's just my opinion though, everyone is allowed to disagree regardless of my tone...

  

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imcvspl
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23. "Yo Jakob... FUCK YOUR TONE!!!"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

j/k

Miles had a vision though. That much if I remember correctly is addressed by Mtume in the clips.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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SoWhat
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25. "i like to pretend he stopped recording after Nefertiti."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

lol

fuck you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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21. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>i dunno what the hell homeboy was on to have made that shit.
>i've been on cocaine and weed and acid and other stuff and i
>still think that music sounds like ass.
>
>i've heard Sly Stone records and i've heard James Brown and
>i've heard jazz. when i think of melding those sounds i don't
>get electric Miles. i get electric Miles when i wonder what
>it would sound like if a freight train ran over a jazz quartet
>that was visiting a 7th grade garage Rock band's warm-up
>session on its 1st day of existence.
>
>

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Austin
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30. "RE: Jeez, I hope you take your own sig quote to heart here. . ."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Because your exceedingly cynical view, coupled with what appears to be not a very deep knowledge of the music you're writing off, is disappointing.

Big Fun was recorded same time as Bitches Brew. Likewise Get Up With It during On the Corner sessions.

~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus
http://soundcloud.com/austintayeshus

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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31. "Yeah and...?"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          


>Big Fun was recorded same time as Bitches Brew. Likewise Get
>Up With It during On the Corner sessions.

So because they were recorded in the same session I got to like both of them?

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Austin
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33. "RE: Just putting them into context."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          


~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus
http://soundcloud.com/austintayeshus

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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34. "Thanks, but I have books for that. nm"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Austin
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Thu Jul-12-12 08:35 PM

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37. "RE: Books that you're not reading."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          


~Austin

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com
http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus
http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus
http://soundcloud.com/austintayeshus

  

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Crash Bandacoot
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Thu Jul-12-12 07:01 PM

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35. "that fusion era is my favorite of any period of music"
In response to Reply # 7
Thu Jul-12-12 07:05 PM by Crash Bandacoot

          

the music made itself. it was raw, edgy, funky, just badass.
when i first heard 'the cellar door sessions,' coupled with
'the complete on the corner sessions,' i thought was the greatest
shit that i had ever heard. used to spend weeks on just one track,
each listen blowing my mind. that era was out of this world and
not much comes close to it, imo.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Thu Jul-12-12 12:58 PM

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14. "Crouch is almost impossible to listen to in this debate"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I mean the guy misstates and misrepresents what Mtume is saying ...right after Mtume says it...lol..

can't really have a reasonable debate with someone who is avoiding reason.

  

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SoWhat
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16. "^^ DON'T. DUDE. DON'T."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

i know you want to.

DON'T!

fuck you.

  

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imcvspl
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Thu Jul-12-12 01:07 PM

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18. "PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE HEED THIS ADVICE!!!"
In response to Reply # 16
Thu Jul-12-12 01:07 PM by imcvspl

  

          

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Thu Jul-12-12 01:13 PM

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22. "tha fukk outta here...lol."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

you're in here speaking your mind on this subject, but Warren Coolidge can't...

miss me player.

look at the first video...start at the 9:20 mark and listen to what Mtume says.....as it plays ..around 10:17 Crouch says "according to him (mtume).." then goes on to misstate what Mtume had said. ..... now James goes on to correct Crouch.... but I'm sure there are numerous examples of this type of thing during this "debate"

you can't have a real debate with someone like that...who will just make stuff up on the fly to support their point of view. Just can't do it.

  

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SoWhat
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Thu Jul-12-12 01:17 PM

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27. "that wasn't addressed to you."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

fuck you.

  

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ninjitsu
Member since Oct 07th 2011
4151 posts
Thu Jul-12-12 05:44 PM

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32. "lol."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

seeing the post jump up in replies, i assumed it had already happened.

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
16076 posts
Thu Jul-12-12 07:58 PM

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36. "both sides make valid points"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and i can see both sides of this really.

i mean i dug stuff Miles did electric, however when it comes to fusion early 70's Donald Byrd and the mitzell Brothers stuff does it better overall for me, and the free style thing

Sun Rai and Pharoah Sanders go toe to toe as well IMO.

so it all comes down to the listner, both sides make legit points IMO

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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